Post wake up rations.

[ArmySGT.]

So looks like a team has between 14 days and 30 days depending on team size of pre packaged rations.

Doesn't seem logical to open a cache just for the rations.

The Team equipment is really lacking in the hunting and foraging department.

The M21 Sniper rifle is a superb rifle, but the M118 match ammunition is not a good hunting cartridge. The trade pack has some small fish hooks and other tackle that can bring some good protein to the table.

The problem..... nothing to process game or fish, except bayonets. Nothing to cook with like skillets, pots, pans, reflectors, skewers, etc.

My only thought here is that someone in the combined group is driving an M35A2 with trailer loaded with rations or there was plans to resupply a CG by helo or air drop.

GMs is this an oversight that you would include such as a team issue.... or a roleplaying issue that you would have your players seek out and purchase?

[kato13]

I have always thought the canon Project provided a ridiculous small amount of food for teams. Especially if you consider the possibility that a team might (due to technical reasons) need to wake up early.

My solution is to provide what I call a nesting cache. For every 6 teams in a region there is a cache with over a years supply of food and basic farming tools and stock. The might allow a team that wakes early to survive to the 5 year point.

If no team wakes early the supplies are recovered post wake up to be added to the project inventory.

[dragoon500ly]

I've always disagreed with issuing a sniper rifle to every Project vehicle, I often replace it with a .22 caliber varmint rifle for hunting small game and a 12 gauge shotgun for hunting birds and larger game.

[nuke11]

I have always thought the canon Project provided a ridiculous small amount of food for teams. Especially if you consider the possibility that a team might (due to technical reasons) need to wake up early.

As I understand it from a couple of email conversations I had many years, it was a mechanism to get the team to interact with the locals more. Provide less food and this would require the team to trade and interact with the locals.

Right or wrong, that does seem to stand up when you look at the rules and modules and figure out how much food there is provided to the teams.

This also stands up when you consider that fusion was added to make the game less a search for fuel and more interaction with the locals.

[ArmySGT.]

I've always disagreed with issuing a sniper rifle to every Project vehicle, I often replace it with a .22 caliber varmint rifle for hunting small game and a 12 gauge shotgun for hunting birds and larger game.

I have always replaced the M21 with a Mossberg 590. The latter with less than lethal stunbag and rubber buckshot. Also a full length hunting barrel with goose shot.

[dragoon500ly]

Just a couple of items for a teams comfort...

Butchering Kit

A high impact plastic case containing a variety of knives and saws useful for the preparation of game. This kit contains the following:

3" camping knife
8" Howie style butcher knife
5.25" carving fork
4.25" skinning knife
10" double ground wood/bone saw
5.5" boning/fillet knife
6.5" cleaver
Heavy duty game shears
Spreader
Tungsten carbide V-style knife sharpener
10" x 14" cutting board
Gambrel and hoist system (238kg capacity with 20m of line

Total weight 23kg with case

Camp Mate
This is a plastic and steel container that provides 7,000 cubic inches of storage space. The top storage area can hold a camp stove, the protective lid doubles as a sink. A silverware tray doubles as a dish drainer. Plate and cutting board storage inside the main compartment holds plates and dinner wars for eight. Both doors are equipped with racks for holding spices and seasonings.

Total Weight is 5kg with case.

[dragoon500ly]

I have always replaced the M21 with a Mossberg 590. The latter with less than lethal stunbag and rubber buckshot. Also a full length hunting barrel with goose shot.

Still, a .22 for rabbits and squirrels....can even be issued with a suppressor for those pesky sentries.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Was the reason every team got an M21 a way of giving them a useful weapon to mount the Starlight Scope on? What with the old ANPvs2s being relatively difficult to switch between weapons?

Also in the couple of years timescale originally planned for wake up, wouldn't most of the game been eaten or run away from hordes of hungry survivors?

[ArmySGT.]

I think I will continue to leave the cooking kit out, except in the case of the Winter Kit.

Just to force the players into the villages to trade (with contents of the trade pack) for knives and cook pots.

My experience in the past is it is damned difficult to get them out of the V-150. to the extent that their trying to even sleep inside.

I simply impose a discomfort rule and make lack of sleep cumulative and a negative skill modifier to boot.

[ArmySGT.]

Was the reason every team got an M21 a way of giving them a useful weapon to mount the Starlight Scope on? What with the old ANPvs2s being relatively difficult to switch between weapons?

Also in the couple of years timescale originally planned for wake up, wouldn't most of the game been eaten or run away from hordes of hungry survivors?

The AN/PVS-4 (Army Navy / Passive Viewing System - 4) comes with interchangeable reticles. There is a little screw off cap holding in a aluminum cylinder with a hole through it.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/31oYM2aBFjL._SX355_.jpg

Changing out the reticle takes about 10 seconds...... This doesn't zero the weapon at all so that needs to be done if you swap from rifle to SAW to GPMG.

If your going to use the AN/PVS-4 on a tripod like a spotting scope the M60/M240 reticle is the best to help with accurately ranging targets.

The power adapter to use AAA batteries instead of the short lived (top hat) batteries is very important to have too.

[Project_Sardonicus]

Food is an interesting one, it raises one big question.
How long were teams meant to be in the field before being withdrawn for r&r? Did they just stay there until they were wiped out or the world was restored?

My guess is that they would have been out there for at most 6 months. I'm pretty sure they would never have returned to a cache so each cache would provide sufficient supplies for a month that could be loaded onto a vehicle. This would be a way of not only keeping them moving. But also stopping them being trapped from reaching vital supplies that were behind a horde of enraged survivors chasing after them.

Of course the problem is food is bulky and heavy. A 24 hour MRE can weigh a couple of kilos and be about the size of a couple of ammo clips. So repeat this for a month for say a 4 man team and you're carrying around 240 kilos of extra bulky supplies.

How did the project cope with this?

1 Freeze dried rations to be made up with water. Water would not have been a big issue, project vehicles don't need fuel tanks so just convert it into a giant water tank. Freeze dried rations weigh about half as much and are far less bulky. Of course if a team member is separated from a vehicle without water becomes problematic.

2 Food bars or pastes etc or other hitech food solutions. Ever since the ww2 D ration the fantasy has been rations could be reduced to a small bar that a soldier can carry around with them. They exist they're demoralising, unhealthy and really only suitable for a few days supply.

There are of course other problems. MREs are demoralising and to this day armies will go to pretty extreme lengths to ensure even isolated bases in hostile territory get "normal" fresh foods fairly regularly. So what do I suspect the project supplied?

Each cache would contain rations for the team for 40 days (10 more than theoretically needed to give leeway)

Consisting of
1 10 days of food bars, similar to the first strike ration
2 15 days of freeze dried rations
3 15 days of mre style rations.
4 5 days worth of "luxury rations" for moral purposes such as rice, freeze dried meats etc.

[nuke11]

The lack of space is the biggest problem in all project vehicles. There is not enough room to store a months work of ammunition, gear, equipment and rations in any of the vehicles, let alone the weight all of this has on a vehicle.

The project vehicle blue prints do an excellent job at showing what is the layout of each vehicle. I have compared few of the various V150's with manuals and they did get it right, so living near by CG did help out greatly..

When you look at the space requirements and what is available make for a vert cramped vehicle. There is going to have to be alot of equipment stored on the outside.

[Craig67]

From TMP, TM 1-1 - GB- 1 ;

Name Ration Pack
Type Food Supplies
WT. 17 kg
Unit of Issue Ea.
Additional Comments This is simply a backpack of dehydrated food, canned juices and vitamins sufficient for 4 people for 15 days. The pack also contains materials for heating, a folding pot, and water purification tablets.

I did some math, a US Army 1960's / 1970's LRRP ration weighs in at 310 grams per meal. 310 X 3 X 4 X 15 / 1000 = 55.8 kg. Looks like that piece of equipment is broken ;)

Ok, its not haute cuisine but I'm sure the team would be damn happy to have it instead of raw rat and radioactive water :D

I've eaten plenty of military rations over the years, longest unbroken stretch would be about 10 days. Not so great but considering the alternatives in a post- nuclear war world ..........

Kinda gives them motivation to get the locals farming and ranching ASAP.

[dragoon500ly]

I think I will continue to leave the cooking kit out, except in the case of the Winter Kit.

Just to force the players into the villages to trade (with contents of the trade pack) for knives and cook pots.

My experience in the past is it is damned difficult to get them out of the V-150. to the extent that their trying to even sleep inside.

I simply impose a discomfort rule and make lack of sleep cumulative and a negative skill modifier to boot.

Well, based on my own experiences, a GI can truly sleep anywhere, some of the more locations are taking naps will sprawled along the gun tube, my TC was famous for that, for the driver, simply flip the splash guard up, rest your feet on one headlight, slap your CVC on and rest your head on the opposite headlight. You can nap, but it isn't comfortable.

I agree with you, impose a discomfort rule and lack of sleep modifiers.

[dragoon500ly]

As far as food supplies go, you have to plan for a reasonable amount of time, the question then becomes, what is reasonable? For planning purposes, 30 days is not unreasonable for rations, 2-3 units of fire for the small arms would also be reasonable.

So what can a PD do?

According to the modules, the V-150 is supposed to support a 8 man team, one solution is to delete two positions and replace them with supply lockers to hold food and ammo, the tunnel leading back to the rear hatch is converted with additional storage racks along one side, a chemical toilet is placed next to the rear hatch. A 50 gallon water tank is placed on the engine bulkhead, with a water tap for use and in a outside locker, a pump, filter and hose to allow the team to refill from local sources.

You can also attach a trailer to the V-150...there is a tow pintle at the rear of the vehicle and you can always store additional gear....as well as enjoy the driver modifiers when crossing obstacles or backing up in those combat situations!

[Matt W]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-2945604/Peanut-butter-ravioli-freeze-dried-curry-bubblegum-combat-rations-20-armies-world-revealed.html

Why restrict yourself to MREs? The French and Dutch options look quite attractive

[ArmySGT.]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/food/article-2945604/Peanut-butter-ravioli-freeze-dried-curry-bubblegum-combat-rations-20-armies-world-revealed.html

Why restrict yourself to MREs? The French and Dutch options look quite attractive

Or text! She's cute too.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkUFQm9t2lDUTkRGfLqVYuJgOi1P3Vt90

[ArmySGT.]

Well, based on my own experiences, a GI can truly sleep anywhere, some of the more locations are taking naps will sprawled along the gun tube, my TC was famous for that, for the driver, simply flip the splash guard up, rest your feet on one headlight, slap your CVC on and rest your head on the opposite headlight. You can nap, but it isn't comfortable.

I agree with you, impose a discomfort rule and lack of sleep modifiers.

Oh I believe you. Considering the number of people I have woken who fell asleep on the shitter in the Field.

My personal fave is the hood of the humvee. Before sleep systems and bivy bags I had a artic bag and a body bag (nylon carrier). Totally scared the shit out of a guy in 1991 in the Iraqi desert. He thought I was, in fact, a corpse waiting for pick up when he came to our truck for directions and I sat up.

Slept on a pile a A-bags (Duffle bags) more than once on a tarmac to deploy somewhere.

On the deck (platform between the seats) of a humvee with my feet up under the radio during a looooonggggggg (three days) convoy while the truck was driving.

more than once in the old dogpile at the range because no woobie and just field jackets or gortex... Pro tip... polar fleece vests in black or green work under either and much better than liners.

What kind of positive modifiers for coffee, copenhagen, and pure hate for the living? +5% cumulative?

[dragoon500ly]

Coffee, Copenhagen, beef jerky and bug juice, all any real driver ever needs!

[mikeo80]

[QUOTE=Project_Sardonicus;74426]Food is an interesting one, it raises one big question.


How did the project cope with this?

1 Freeze dried rations to be made up with water. Water would not have been a big issue, project vehicles don't need fuel tanks so just convert it into a giant water tank. Freeze dried rations weigh about half as much and are far less bulky. Of course if a team member is separated from a vehicle without water becomes problematic.

My Response:

This idea has some merit. Freeze dried and tight seals give 25 years storage. This type of food is in my personal stash here at the house. I probably have enough for 3-4 months.

Problems, as I see them.

1) WATER!!! You MUST have access to clean water to prepare this type of food. This has been a major problem in many games I have been in. Per TM1-1 ver. 4.0, Pg. 164 each Morrow trooper has 6 liters of water storage. SO if you have a 6 member team, that is 36 liters of water. As I have read in TMP V 3.0 and v 4.0, these storage containers are empty on wake up. You have to find water NOW. Another problem with water is purifying it. Most games I have been in propose a bottle of 100 Iodine Tablets in each persons gear.

A second method of handling water is boiling. This is very effective but supposes access to fuel NOW. So out of the bolt hole you come. You have to find water and fuel NOW.

Another problem with water, the freeze dried food mentioned above. Each serving of Mountain House Beef Stroganoff with noodles needs roughly 200 ml of water. That means a liter of water can prepare five (5) meals.

The above example does NOT include how much water YOU need to live. You need about 2 liters a day. This will change based on weather, physical activity, etc.

SO our trooper with 6 liters of water has about two (2) days of water IF his/her storage containers are full.

2) Boredom. Each can of Mountain House Beef Stroganoff has 10 meals. The Mountain House company suggests that you use all 10 meals within 7 days of opening the can.

3) Storage. Each can weighs just over 1/2 Kilogram. For us silly Americans, about 1 lb. 4 oz.

4) Meal Prep. Each meal in the can needs about 200 ml of BOILING water.

5) Cleanup. You MUST clean your cooking pots and dishes at the end of the meal. More Boiling water.

In conclusion (Oh, thank God) Freeze dried can be done. I have created and/or planned around most of the objections in this note. It took a lot of planning and thought to get to that point.

My $0.02

Mike

[.45cultist]

I think I will continue to leave the cooking kit out, except in the case of the Winter Kit.

Just to force the players into the villages to trade (with contents of the trade pack) for knives and cook pots.

My experience in the past is it is damned difficult to get them out of the V-150. to the extent that their trying to even sleep inside.

I simply impose a discomfort rule and make lack of sleep cumulative and a negative skill modifier to boot.


How do they heat the the water for the rations they are issued?Is there an integral water heater on the MPV?

[ArmySGT.]

How do they heat the the water for the rations they are issued?Is there an integral water heater on the MPV?

They will just have to stop at the next village and buy a pot with a silver dollar.

:)

[mikeo80]

They will just have to stop at the next village and buy a pot with a silver dollar.

:)

That is what many of the teams I have played on did. I can see the logic of a integral water heater. You are running a fusion plant. Yes it is a cold fusion plant, but still....There should be SOME spare heat. OR...

A 120V/60 HZ plug in the vehicle to plug a coffee pot/water heater in.

Make sure you purify the water FIRST!!!!!

My $0.02

Mike

[dragoon500ly]

Realistically, placing an eight person team with two weeks of rations with six caches, each holding another two weeks worth of rations, doesn't take into effect the planned assumption for the Project is a wake-up 5 years after a nuclear exchange.

Consider the impact of that event, the complete break down of the transportation network, outside of Mormons and peppers, how many people have even a month's worth of food stockpiled? Local grocery stores have, at the most, perhaps a weeks worth of food...how many grocery stores are in your home town?

But wait! We have small gardens and farms!!!! We can live off the land! We can hunt and fish, crisis averted!

Sorry friend, that nasty fallout from several hundred nuclear warheads is going to have some severe effects on the food supply. Basically, if the plants are not in a greenhouse, equipped with air filtration, it may not be edible without stringent decontamination, and how many survivors have the knowledge and the material to recon several tons of plants? As for wildlife, at the very least, it will be as severely affected as the human population.

So, by year 5, food is going to be a scarce commodity. There is a very distinct possibility that survivors may very well be reduced to cannibalism to stretch out scarce resources.

Now, you are one of the Project planners, you have access to all of the public, as well as the government studies on the the aftermath of a major nuclear exchange. Do you really believe that providing a team with, at most, two months of food supplies will keep a team going in a nuclear winter scenario? More realistically, the team is going to use their supplies for their own survival, let alone helping any survivors.

The reason behind providing the team's with significant food reserves is to give them the flexibility for extended operations as well as providing for supporting limited numbers of refugees.

Flame On!

[RandyT0001]

Per 4th edition all vehicles have a camp kit
NAME CAMP KIT
TYPE Camping equipment
WT. 21kg
UNIT OF ISSUE Ea.
COMMENTS A plastic crate containing
camping gear for six people
Crate contents:
• Two four-person dome tents (4kg each) – The extra
space is intended for prolonged occupation or gear
storage. The tents have large awnings, to create a
covered space for cooking or gear storage.
• Two green eyeleted plastic tarps, 2x3m (1.5 kg each).
• A spare set of poles & pegs for tent, plus bungees,
parachute cord, etc. to rig tarps as shelters, vehicle
awnings, etc. (1kg).
• Water purification pump, with two spare filters,
good for a month’s use each (2 kg).
• Lightweight multi-fuel stove (1.5kg).
• Aluminum field cooking kit (Two pots w lids/frying
pans, enamel plates, serving spoon, ladle, strainer,
etc.) (2.5kg).
• Two battery powered rechargeable electric lanterns
(1 kg each, runs 36 hours on one four-hour charge).
• A 10 liter (2.5 gallon) folding water carrier, with
shoulder straps and hanging loop. It comes with a
pouring tap and sprinkler nozzle to rig it as a field
shower (1kg).

[tsofian]

Just a couple of items for a teams comfort...

Butchering Kit

A high impact plastic case containing a variety of knives and saws useful for the preparation of game. This kit contains the following:

3" camping knife
8" Howie style butcher knife
5.25" carving fork
4.25" skinning knife
10" double ground wood/bone saw
5.5" boning/fillet knife
6.5" cleaver
Heavy duty game shears
Spreader
Tungsten carbide V-style knife sharpener
10" x 14" cutting board
Gambrel and hoist system (238kg capacity with 20m of line

Total weight 23kg with case

Camp Mate
This is a plastic and steel container that provides 7,000 cubic inches of storage space. The top storage area can hold a camp stove, the protective lid doubles as a sink. A silverware tray doubles as a dish drainer. Plate and cutting board storage inside the main compartment holds plates and dinner wars for eight. Both doors are equipped with racks for holding spices and seasonings.

Total Weight is 5kg with case.

Very useful, thanks.

At 4 meals a day (for high stress/activity periods) and with an MRE massing around .75 kilograms that gives each person 3 KGs of rations per day. I think 6 months of food is a good benchmark, so each person needs 540 kg of food for that period. If this is divided between the bolt hole and the six caches that reduces it to a more manageable 80ish Kg in each location (per person)

That still means each team will be toting over half a ton of food around at the start of things.

[dragoon500ly]

Its amazing what useful items/kits one can pull from military surplus and camping catalogs!

[ChalkLine]

Strangely enough I was told the New Zealand MRE is made in Australia and the Australian MRE is made in New Zealand. I suspect a politician was involved

EDIT: Surely The Morrow Project fits its fusion-powered vehicles with a Commonwealth-style 'boiling vessel'!?

[dragoon500ly]

Strangely enough I was told the New Zealand MRE is made in Australia and the Australian MRE is made in New Zealand. I suspect a politician was involved

EDIT: Surely The Morrow Project fits its fusion-powered vehicles with a Commonwealth-style 'boiling vessel'!?

as for the rations being made in different countries, it is military procurement, having worked 20 years in that field, this would not surprise me in the least, I would even expect that the Soviet Union would have a factory or two producing 155mm rounds for the U.S. Army under contract!

As for the "boiling vessel" that's one feature overlooked in the layouts, I've always added a small hot water heater along with a water storage tank and a purification pump/filter arrangement....

[Gelrir]

The V-150 of the Morrow Project is pretty jam-packed with all the issued gear, personal kit, etc. In fact the characters in our campaign start filling up the "tunnel" between the main hull and the rear door with "stuff" pretty quickly.

That said, for our current campaign there are a couple of conveniences:

The "non-Project" V-150 has fuel tanks in the wedge-shaped bow. These are inconveniently shaped and placed for non-liquid storage, so in the Project there are two water tanks in the bow; one for potable water, one for unfiltered water; the two tanks are connected by a ceramic filter (which has to be cleaned from time to time). Each tank has its own external filler (the original fuel tank fillers), and there are two taps inside the vehicle from the potable water tank -- one of taps has an "in-line" electric heater.

While food could be expected to be scarce after an Atomic War, presumably pots and pans will remain.

One point I notice in TM 1-1 (1st-3rd editions): "Each team knows the location of at least 6 caches throughout the country." It's not clear that any one cache is only known to one team.

--
Michael B.

[dragoon500ly]

The V-150 of the Morrow Project is pretty jam-packed with all the issued gear, personal kit, etc. In fact the characters in our campaign start filling up the "tunnel" between the main hull and the rear door with "stuff" pretty quickly.

That said, for our current campaign there are a couple of conveniences:

The "non-Project" V-150 has fuel tanks in the wedge-shaped bow. These are inconveniently shaped and placed for non-liquid storage, so in the Project there are two water tanks in the bow; one for potable water, one for unfiltered water; the two tanks are connected by a ceramic filter (which has to be cleaned from time to time). Each tank has its own external filler (the original fuel tank fillers), and there are two taps inside the vehicle from the potable water tank -- one of taps has an "in-line" electric heater.

While food could be expected to be scarce after an Atomic War, presumably pots and pans will remain.

One point I notice in TM 1-1 (1st-3rd editions): "Each team knows the location of at least 6 caches throughout the country." It's not clear that any one cache is only known to one team.

--
Michael B.

Pretty much in every game I've ever played or PD'ed, the V-150 loses a couple of seats and the tunnel becomes a storage location with lockers lining the interior wall, even a chemical toilet near the rear exit. I usually place a small "travel" sink with two water taps near the left-side hatch on the engine bulkhead, with the small two water tanks at the front of the vehicle. The filter is accessed through a small exterior hatch on the bow of the vehicle.

As for the caches...TM 1-1 is always vague over what is meant by the size/location of the caches, its not until you get into the modules that there is even minor lip-service given as to content, with the six caches all being within (if memory serves) about 50-100 kilometers of the bolthole.

Most of the cache contents list I've seen are heavy in the bang-bang and goodies for the team, and remarkably light in materials to assist the survivors. Hence the numbers of threads we've seen trying to justify one point or another about this issue!