T2K Cuisine - Food in the aftermath

[General Pain]

What would people eat? I guess it's all up to GM on how heavy the apoc. has been and how long ago it has happened.

I'd guess in the big (formerly big) cities rat-o-van (rat run over by a van) and the like would be possible ....or maybe the PCs will see the following sign?

http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/01/french-flies-peanut.jpg

[Targan]

In the NYC part of my current campaign Rat-On-A-Stick has proved to be a very popular dish with the locals. The funny thing is my group are mostly former Harnmaster players so we are all fully accustomed to that sort of urban snack from our Harnmaster PCs having partaken of it innumerable times.

[General Pain]

In the NYC part of my current campaign Rat-On-A-Stick has proved to be a very popular dish with the locals. The funny thing is my group are mostly former Harnmaster players so we are all fully accustomed to that sort of urban snack from our Harnmaster PCs having partaken of it innumerable times.

Before we nuked Manila in HQs Campaign we experienced the rat-on-a-stick

[headquarters]

Before we nuked Manila in HQs Campaign we experienced the rat-on-a-stick


..and you will again..

..if you are LUCKY!!

[General Pain]

..and you will again..

..if you are LUCKY!!

hmmm...seems we have to go back to canibalism....

and in case I'm right - here is some inspiration

http://www.indiefilm.com/cookbook/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.html

[Mohoender]

I advise you to watch this french movie if you can find it: "Delicatessen". It's a nice idea that is perfectly relevant to canibalism in a post-apoc setting (a rare type of movie in France).

Here is the link to the english wiki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicatessen_(film)

[kato13]

In response to the question, the simplest answer is "whatever they could get their hands on".

In areas with European agricultural influence (Americas, Europe, Some of Africa) i would expect the staples to be grain based gruel, bread and beer. Asia would, as always, focus on rice. Each would be supplemented with what ever vegetable and meat protein they could find locally, including insects and rats.

[jester]

I advise you to watch this french movie if you can find it: "Delicatessen". It's a nice idea that is perfectly relevant to canibalism in a post-apoc setting (a rare type of movie in France).

Here is the link to the english wiki on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicatessen_(film)


I saw that a couple years ago. Interesting but it didn't really grab me. And everyone was just too weird. I think its on par with preformance art or Circ Du Oile or Circe De Sol or one of those similiar just to out there.

Although the irony was good, the butchers daughter liked the handyman and was also trying to save him.

[Mohoender]

I saw that a couple years ago. Interesting but it didn't really grab me. And everyone was just too weird. I think its on par with preformance art or Circ Du Oile or Circe De Sol or one of those similiar just to out there.

Although the irony was good, the butchers daughter liked the handyman and was also trying to save him.

I had not thought of it that way but I understand what you mean and that is quite true.:)

[pmulcahy11b]

Imagine -- a roach coach where they actually serve roaches...

[Targan]

Imagine -- a roach coach where they actually serve roaches...
And when you call someone a "goat smoker" its because they really do smoke goats...

[Raellus]

Horses and dogs would go pretty fast, where food is really scarce. Rats too; Pigeons in urban areas.

In terms of more organized agriculture/animal husbandry, seems like goats would become popular again, being as they are relatively hardy and will eat just about anything.

And then, there's always Soilent Green...

[Littlearmies]

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat. So I said if an animal just died of old age would she be okay with eating it then - she thought about and said she couldn't see why not.

So I bought her this for her birthday a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Roadkill-Cookbook-B-R-Peterson/dp/0898152003

It's actually pretty practical!

Malc

[pmulcahy11b]

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office...She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat.

Does she not know that plants are also alive?

[Rupert Willies]

And then, there's always Soilent Green...

Yes, as long as there are people, there will always be Soylent Green (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green). Tastes like chicken!

[Legbreaker]

I heard it's more like pork....

[Targan]

I heard it's more like pork....
That's what the Maoris say.

[Mohoender]

Does she not know that plants are also alive?

Yes but you can hardly imagine them screaming unless standing in a forest in a middle of a storm.

Nevertheless, people always have strange reaction concerning meat. I'm eating a lot of kangaroo lately and I will for some weeks. The village minimarket bought three types of meat (frozen) for christmas: Kangaroo, doe and ostrich. People have bought all the does and ostrichs but Kangaroos were left aside. Hopefully for him, I'll be a customer: it's very good.:)

From what I know, many Americans would avoid Rabbit (It's excellent). Reptiles are fairly good either and according to my cousin white worms are juicy.;)

Anyway the most funny thing is that many meat eater are showing disgust when you ask them to kill an animal. Visit an aquarium with my wife and you'll quickly understand that many of these wonderful fishes are only want be sushis.:D Visit a zoo or a farm with me and you quickly realize that these animals are no more than walking steaks. Well done, medium or rare??:p

[Mohoender]

In order to get back to the subject. One of my history teacher once told me that during WWII he would have been very happy to eat cat food or dog food. You can add these to the list along with insects of all sorts.

[Targan]

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat.
I'm tempted to say that is madness but that would be intolerant of me. Anyone who uses a mirror to take a look inside their mouth can clearly see that we humans are omnivores. Throwing millions of years of evolution out the window because you think fluffy critters are too cute to eat seems a little odd to me. However I can sort of see where someone is coming from if they decide not to eat meat because they wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal themseves. The meat I eat tends to be from types of animals I have killed and eaten in the past or would be prepared to hunt. I don't eat beef very often because I'm not too keen on the idea of killing, gutting and skinning a cow. That would be a really big job.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm definitely not a vegetarian, but I'm not a hunter either. It's cowardice more than anything else -- I can't stand to look an animal in the eye (or even the ass) and shoot it, though I've done it in the past (along with some snaring and trapping) and could do it in the future. It's the duality of man; I love animals, yet I eat them too -- I just don't want to hunt them myself.

[jester]

What would be eaten in T2K:

I am thinking danelions, millet as both tend to grow wild.

Rose bulbs would be used as a jam or even medicine <high in Vitimin C>

Thistles as portions of those are eaten.

Pine needles are a good source of Vitmin C


As for other items,

Insects, worm farms would be en vogue, A plate of worms served and slurped like one would spagehtti.

Rats, Rabbits and similiar small easily raised animals

Pigeons would also be another common fowl eaten, chickens and other fowl would be to valuable for their eggs and their size.

Fish, aquaculture in areas that can manage this could raise catfish and carp easily, you could turn a swimming pool into such a pond feeding them ground up table scraps.

A plant I have considered is raising two types of animals:

Chickens or Turkeys

And

Catfish or Carp

And maybe rabbits:

Rabits get the grain and grass and such.



Catch the fish, process the meat and preserve it, the cast off and bones get ground and fed to the chickens.

The chickens get processed, and the meat preserved. What is cast off is ground and fed to the fish.

The Rabbits, they just get processed and their cast offs fed to both fish and chickens.

Also, I can see fishing becoming more common much like in the days of old, people going out in rowboats.

In coastal areas I can see people raising muscles <easy really>

and harvesting kelp and seaweed.

[Mohoender]

What would be eaten in T2K:

... In coastal areas I can see people raising muscles <easy really>

and harvesting kelp and seaweed.

I like several of your ideas Jest but I'll ask for a few clarification and I'll add a few more.

First what do you call Pine Needle? Is that what we call Pignons (a Pine fruit)? Another thing: what is Danelion?

In terms of vegetables I think that you can add several things that are easily grown: Rutabaga, Jerusalem Artichoke and Oats.

You could also add several types of gourds and marrows (including pumpkin and pickles)

I don't know for the Americas but for Europe several wild plants are also eatable: rhubarb, nettle (soup) and... dandelion (I just found what it is:D ). Of course, you can add several type of berries including blackberries, wild cherries...

For the animals, I think you overlooked one: Guinea Pigs. Goats (milk and cheese) will be around also but someone else already said it.

Frogs of course are also easily raised and more easily captured than fish. I can catch about 10 frog in half an hour while I can spend several days trying to catch a single fish.;)

And of course, you can plan on snails.:) Raising them is very easy as you just need a small quite river. You just have to carve several artificial islands with plenty of grass on them. Put the snails on them and wait until the right period. When a snail is stuck on an island, they simply cannot get out.

[Rupert Willies]

I suspect Danelion = dandelion = pissenlit in French = løvetann in Norwegian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dandelion
Millet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet



Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Earthpig]

There is a movie called King Rat where pow's raised rats and sold them to other pow's, as small deer that grew in Maylasia.:) they grow fast and breed....well like rats.:)

Acorns once the tannin is bleached out are very good and full of fat and nutrients, plus when ground can make a flour. Young ferns (called fiddle head greens) can be very tasty. Water cress as a salad is very good. we have an abundance of wild onions/leeks in the area.....make for a very flatulance producing meal. Notice that during the summer/Fall you can find plenty, winter is another deal.best to save by drying/canning/pickling as much as possible.

[Webstral]

From what I know, many Americans would avoid Rabbit (It's excellent).

I had rabbit once--before I starting speaking Lapine. It was enjoyable. I couldn't do it anymore, though. In the event of the holocaust, I'd have to trade Stewie for his value in meat and pelt to someone else. I wouldn't have the heart to break the neck of and eat the little lop I've devoted so much to.

Totally OT, if anyone is interested in seeing how trainable rabbits can be, I have a couple of videos of mine here:

www.dragoncurls.blogspot.com

Webstral

[Webstral]

Anyone who uses a mirror to take a look inside their mouth can clearly see that we humans are omnivores.

It's true that we can eat meat. That doesn't mean we should--at least not the way Western nations have come to eat meat. Our digestive tracts have a great deal more in common with the digestive tracts of rabbits (sans the cecum) than with wolves or cats. We don't handle cholesterol very well. Diseases brought on by over-consumption of animal products are the leading causes of death in the US. We can eat meat, but we're optimized for vegetable consumption. For everyone who equates meat consumption with being at the top of the food chain and thence with self-esteem, remember that lions and wolves don't have opposable thumbs.

That much said, no one is going to give a damn about such long-term niceties like cholesterol build-up after the Thanksgiving Day Massacre.

Webstral

[jester]

Mo;

Pineneedles, the small pointy leaves of evergreen pinetrees.

When green these can be boiled into a tea and are high in vitimin C.

Further, bark from many trees also contains vitimins and fiber.

I agree thistles and snails are easily produced as well.

I was thinking guinea pigs too but I chose to include them with rats and other rodents, I really hate the things! Although they were a staple in the precolumbian diet in South and Central America.

Oh, the minitature potbellied pigs could be something we may find in peoples yards as they raise this small pigs and chickens in home backyards as well.

In many areas of the US blackberries are very common to the point of being an invasion species that overgrows regular plants.

And in portions of the US South West cactus, the flat broadleaved type that produces the cactus or prickly pear. For both the leaf and the pear one must be carefull when removing them to avoid the cactus barbs and then peal them of their skin and any barbs remaining. The pear can be eaten or mashed into a jelly, the thick leaves cut into peices and eaten after cooking.


I remember reading a menu of a restraunt that specialized in "AZTEC" cuisine, and the most normal food on the menu was venison, everything else was ants, grubs, wasps, worns, snakes, lizards and beetles. And of course chocolate.

[Mohoender]

Jest

I just didn't know you could eat pine needles. In fact, I couldn't even imagine it and that's why I asked. I thought it was something else. Thanks.

[Mohoender]

Our digestive tracts have a great deal more in common with the digestive tracts of rabbits (sans the cecum) than with wolves or cats.
Webstral

We have more in common with Pigs than with rabbits. Not only in the matter of food by the way.

[General Pain]

..and you will again..

..if you are LUCKY!!


really...we can nuke manila again.....
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_r6aQ9k1p2e8/SQihYPs625I/AAAAAAAAAIA/A2qwBxB8BYo/s400/homer_simpson31.jpg .aaaarghlhglglh (homer simpson sound)

[General Pain]

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat. So I said if an animal just died of old age would she be okay with eating it then - she thought about and said she couldn't see why not.

So I bought her this for her birthday a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Roadkill-Cookbook-B-R-Peterson/dp/0898152003

It's actually pretty practical!

Malc

priceless

[General Pain]

I'm definitely not a vegetarian, but I'm not a hunter either. It's cowardice more than anything else -- I can't stand to look an animal in the eye (or even the ass) and shoot it, though I've done it in the past (along with some snaring and trapping) and could do it in the future. It's the duality of man; I love animals, yet I eat them too -- I just don't want to hunt them myself.

this descirbes me to perfectly.....why hunt when I can buy it in the store.....and hunting in norway is ffing cold too...not my cup of tea really....but I like to fish from boat though...I even have a boat...

it's the one on the pier.

this is the boathouse we have sessions in each summer.btw.

[General Pain]

http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bowleg-egg-bleak-coffee.jpg

bleak coffee hahahahah

[General Pain]

http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/01/chocolate-puke.jpg

[Webstral]

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

http://www.engrish.com//wp-content/uploads/2009/02/bowleg-egg-bleak-coffee.jpg

bleak coffee hahahahah

And they even offer to bread Jane and butter her...for when you really want to make a good impression on your first date...

[pmulcahy11b]

this descirbes me to perfectly.....why hunt when I can buy it in the store.....and hunting in norway is ffing cold too...not my cup of tea really....but I like to fish from boat though...I even have a boat...

it's the one on the pier.

this is the boathouse we have sessions in each summer.btw.

I'm not even giving you the link to the aerial view of my house on Google Maps...:o

[pmulcahy11b]

Jest

I just didn't know you could eat pine needles. In fact, I couldn't even imagine it and that's why I asked. I thought it was something else. Thanks.

They're best brewed as a tea, according to my survival instructors. Still tastes like something I left behind in the toilet.

[pmulcahy11b]

Funnily enough we have a veggie who works in our office and at our office party I asked if the reason she was a vegetarian was moral or because she didn't like eating cute furry animals or she just didn't like meat. She replied that she didn't think it was moral to kill something else just so she could eat. So I said if an animal just died of old age would she be okay with eating it then - she thought about and said she couldn't see why not.

Inform her that throughout our evolution, meat has been the main power behind the development of our big brains -- or would she prefer to still be an Australopithecus Robustus, hoping some other animal didn't eat her?

[Targan]

Inform her that throughout our evolution, meat has been the main power behind the development of our big brains -- or would she prefer to still be an Australopithecus Robustus, hoping some other animal didn't eat her?

I understand your point completely Paul but Robustus wasn't one of our direct ancestors, it was one of the Hominid species that co-existed with our direct ancestor Homo Habilis. Well that seems to be the current scientific consensus anyway (when I was younger it was believed that Australopithecus Africanus and Robustus co-existed). It is fairly certain that we and Robustus both descended from the more gracile lines of Australopithecus but our line didn't have the big sagittal crests that Robustus and Australopithecus Boisei had (needed to attach those big herbivore jaw muscles to the top of the skull).

I agree with you on the brain development point. Even though Robustus probably had a very basic level of tool use they almost certainly never developed the use of fire or spoken language before they died out leaving no descendants.

[sglancy12]

I have a real fascination with the idea of cuisine ala TW2K.

Personally I never much cared for the drought that's supposed to show up and knock the whole country back to Ethiopian/Somali levels of famine. I think the country will have problems enough being knocked back to 19th century levels of industrialization, transport, farming and medicine. Throw in political chaos and there's plenty of chaos and starvation for everyone.

Anyways, two things stand out for me concerning post TW2K food. The first is the return to "Regional Cuisine." With no transport net, and no refrigeration, most places are going to revert to regional cuisine. All food will be whatever can be grown and prepared locally. No more olive oil unless you've got olive trees in the neighborhood. No more orange juice in Indiana. No more lobster in Kansas.

The second thing that stands out is technology of food preservation. With electrical supplies non-existent or critically rationed, food can't simply be preserved by refrigeration. Your going to have to keep your meat fresh by keeping it alive until the day you plan to eat it. Otherwise you are going to have to become adept at smoking and preserving meat. Then there are preserved fruits... and lost arts like canning suddenly come into play.

Grain can be stored long-term... but that means you need cats to keep your rats at bay. Not sure how long flour last... but you've got to keep the bugs out of it. Any cereal or grains can be preserved indefinitely if it's turned into alcohol.

Alcohol is perhaps the greatest preserver of labor in the post TW2K world. Lots of labor went into creating that grain. But it might not last if it's not consumed or if it gets moldy, or attacked by vermin. Once it's been distilled into alcohol it can be preserved indefinitely. You've also turned an agricultural product into something that can be used as an antiseptic, a pain killer and a fuel... not to mention a great way to forget about how sucky the Post TW2K world is. Marvelous trade good that ethanol.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Webstral]

Some good points about regional cuisine, et al.

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

On a different subject, jalapeno peppers have more vitamin C than oranges and more vitamin A than carrots. A diet with lots of jalapenos is a) less bland and b) a good substitute for the fruits than cannot be obtained from Yuma because the Mexicans own the orchards. I'm definitely adding jalapenos to the list for Thunder Empire. Perhaps with some chipotles thrown in, the survivors in southeastern Arizona will hardly notice that civilization is on its knees.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

I understand your point completely Paul but Robustus wasn't one of our direct ancestors, it was one of the Hominid species that co-existed with our direct ancestor Homo Habilis. Well that seems to be the current scientific consensus anyway (when I was younger it was believed that Australopithecus Africanus and Robustus co-existed). It is fairly certain that we and Robustus both descended from the more gracile lines of Australopithecus but our line didn't have the big sagittal crests that Robustus and Australopithecus Boisei had (needed to attach those big herbivore jaw muscles to the top of the skull).

I agree with you on the brain development point. Even though Robustus probably had a very basic level of tool use they almost certainly never developed the use of fire or spoken language before they died out leaving no descendants.

The reason I used A. Robustus as an example is that Robustus is the sort of thing you get when you have a pre-human creature that subsists primarily on vegetable matter. You don't evolve a big brain that way. Considering what we did to this planet, maybe it would have been for the better if pre-humans decided not to eat meat...

[pmulcahy11b]

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

Nibbling on pieces of Egyptian mummies was once considered good for you, though an expensive indulgence.

[sglancy12]

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

Suddenly all that Tupperware that's just laying around doesn't seem all that useless anymore. Containers like that would be critical for keeping the vermin out of your food. And they won't be making any new ones for quite a while, what with any petroleum products likely being used to create engine lubricants rather than fuel. You can't lube an engine with ethanol...

Interesting how things players would normally step over (i.e. anything that isn't ammo, fuel or weapons) would be critical for another groups survival. It would be a really interesting TW2K campaign focused on a group of professional scavangers/salvagers... going from place to place either recovering or trading for the materials that communities need to survive. One community's garbage would be another communities gold, and the difference between the two could be as little as ten or twenty miles.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Graebarde]

I have a real fascination with the idea of cuisine ala TW2K.

Personally I never much cared for the drought that's supposed to show up and knock the whole country back to Ethiopian/Somali levels of famine. I think the country will have problems enough being knocked back to 19th century levels of industrialization, transport, farming and medicine. Throw in political chaos and there's plenty of chaos and starvation for everyone.

Anyways, two things stand out for me concerning post TW2K food. The first is the return to "Regional Cuisine." With no transport net, and no refrigeration, most places are going to revert to regional cuisine. All food will be whatever can be grown and prepared locally. No more olive oil unless you've got olive trees in the neighborhood. No more orange juice in Indiana. No more lobster in Kansas.

The second thing that stands out is technology of food preservation. With electrical supplies non-existent or critically rationed, food can't simply be preserved by refrigeration. Your going to have to keep your meat fresh by keeping it alive until the day you plan to eat it. Otherwise you are going to have to become adept at smoking and preserving meat. Then there are preserved fruits... and lost arts like canning suddenly come into play.

Grain can be stored long-term... but that means you need cats to keep your rats at bay. Not sure how long flour last... but you've got to keep the bugs out of it. Any cereal or grains can be preserved indefinitely if it's turned into alcohol.

Alcohol is perhaps the greatest preserver of labor in the post TW2K world. Lots of labor went into creating that grain. But it might not last if it's not consumed or if it gets moldy, or attacked by vermin. Once it's been distilled into alcohol it can be preserved indefinitely. You've also turned an agricultural product into something that can be used as an antiseptic, a pain killer and a fuel... not to mention a great way to forget about how sucky the Post TW2K world is. Marvelous trade good that ethanol.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing


Scott,

I totally agree about regional cuisine. But it is a plan for trade in the future eh?

Food preservation is NOT as difficult as many think it would be. The 'easiest' is drying, provided you have weather that cooperates. All meat, vegetable, and fruits can be dried. It has been done for milleniums with success. Yes, there will be a learning curve involved, but it's doable. Salt for curing will be come worth more than gold, bullets, or what ever... it could become a 'currency' as in the days of the Romans. Smoking is not a way of preservation per se, rather a means to keep vermin from what you are drying, plus with good wood ads greatly to the palatability.. same with salt.. salt is used to draw out moisture to speed the drying.

Canning comes in second IMO to drying as you need more materials to do it and the real drawback is the lids for canning jars.. you can reuse the jars, but the lids are not safe for second use.. not to say it can't or hasn't been done, but botulism is a problem.

Grains and legumes (beans) can be stored for a period of time, best in sealed containers, such as the METAL garbage cans with lids fastened down. Rodents WILL gnaw through plastics!!! They have taken wheat from Egyptian tombs 3000 yrs old and they were still edible.. but not sure of viability. In reguards to flour/meal, it is best to keep levels to a minimum and grind what you need from the whole grain. Whole ground flour goes rancid due to the oils from the germ..

IMO alcohol is greatly overrated. You would NOT distill grains needed for human consumption to make alcohol. If the grain is not fit for human/animal consumption, then yes.. but generally no... Food growing will be done by hand for some period after fuel runs out. And unless stored in tight containers it will become hydrated over time (take in moisture from the air) which could be taken care of by redistillation, but...

What can a human eat:
wheat, rye, tritacale (cross of wheat and rye), corn, oats, millet, sorgum, barley, rice -- rice, oats and barley take more preperations than the loose hulled.

dry beans, lentils, peas, peanuts, soybeans, sunflowers, canola-- if you have a crusher, use it on the oilseed to extract the oil, and use the meal to supplement your diet for high protien, as well as your livestock.. The oil does NOT have to be sopanified as they claim. I have witnessed straight run oil used in diesels from 1974 on. Not good in cold, but none the less it can be used with care.

Vegetables..
potatoes will probably become scarce unless well managed since it take the eye of the tuber to get a new crop. Also storage for the roots is trickier than for preserved foods.

Seed saving.. while hybrids are a 'problem' since they don't breed true, it does not mean they can not produce.. just not like the previous generation. They regress, but you still have some crop. The days of 200 bushel corn will be gone. If you can average 30-50 bushels/acre consider youself lucky after year one. Utilizing the offspring of hybrid's will be a trial and error. Just select the BEST for the next and eat the rest.

Grae
long-time Twilighter, and logistician.
ag is my bag, especially pre-WW2, since that is where we would be if not further back.
how to survive the aftermath is my avocation, Twilight is the training field for scenarios.

[headquarters]

I havent seen you around for a long time ,Grae - good to hear from you again ! ( It might just be that I havent been paying attention- nevertheless -good.)

I wanted to ask - smoking meats etc -will it not add to shelf life quite a lot ? I was under the impression that it would dry out the meat / fish considerably thus increasing shelf live by a lot -compared to fresh product of course.

Please advise - on mutton,pork,beef, dog (! well it is a post apoc game after all )

As for potatoes - in days past ,most houses here had a dark cellar were the temperature was cooler than the rest of the house with a big wooden container that could hold a couple of hundred pounds of potatoes or ther abouts .Apparently these dark and relatively cool conditions ( probably around +8 degrees Celsius )would keep the majority of the spuds edible for many months .

Some people state that potatoes can easily be grown if you leave a small batch in a cardboard container on your window sill ( inside ) and then replant after app 14 days of light ,in outside containers like flowerbeds,pails,tubs,drums or even discarded car tires filled with soil.

I would like an opinion on the feasability of such a garden -and any major tips on what to do and what to not - if thats alright .

As for T2K cuisine on a more specialized note : can anyone give me a ballpark figure for how long you have to wait to eat meat from animals that have been exposed to fallout ? I know there are a myriad variables,so to start off I would say that dosage is below lethal dose for the animal ( dog or sheep/cow/venison etc ) and that exposure has ended .

In other words -if you come across a deer /cow after the kaboom,you know it comes recently from the next county over were dangerous fallout has been registered -what would the recommended wait ? I am of course talking a situation were you have to eat or perish sooner rather than later .

[Graebarde]

***Darn it! I accidentally deleted Grae's post with my new-found moderator privileges! I meant to quote instead of edit! Kato, can Grae's post be retrieved? Please! It was really good!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry!***



Edit Add from Kato13

Sorry My last backup was at midnight and I missed catching this one by about an hour.

My apologies Grea. This was not Targan's fault I kinda threw him into moderation mode without training.

[headquarters]

cheers.

good info.

[Graebarde]

***Darn it! I accidentally deleted Grae's post with my new-found moderator privileges! I meant to quote instead of edit! Kato, can Grae's post be retrieved? Please! It was really good!

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry!***



Edit Add from Kato13

Sorry My last backup was at midnight and I missed catching this one by about an hour.

My apologies Grea. This was not Targan's fault I kinda threw him into moderation mode without training.

Humf... see where i stand ROTFLMAO

I'll redo a synopsis if you want.. won't be the same as I've slept since then.

[Graebarde]

I havent seen you around for a long time ,Grae - good to hear from you again ! ( It might just be that I havent been paying attention- nevertheless -good.)

I wanted to ask - smoking meats etc -will it not add to shelf life quite a lot ? I was under the impression that it would dry out the meat / fish considerably thus increasing shelf live by a lot -compared to fresh product of course.

Please advise - on mutton,pork,beef, dog (! well it is a post apoc game after all )

As for potatoes - in days past ,most houses here had a dark cellar were the temperature was cooler than the rest of the house with a big wooden container that could hold a couple of hundred pounds of potatoes or ther abouts .Apparently these dark and relatively cool conditions ( probably around +8 degrees Celsius )would keep the majority of the spuds edible for many months .

Some people state that potatoes can easily be grown if you leave a small batch in a cardboard container on your window sill ( inside ) and then replant after app 14 days of light ,in outside containers like flowerbeds,pails,tubs,drums or even discarded car tires filled with soil.

I would like an opinion on the feasability of such a garden -and any major tips on what to do and what to not - if thats alright .

As for T2K cuisine on a more specialized note : can anyone give me a ballpark figure for how long you have to wait to eat meat from animals that have been exposed to fallout ? I know there are a myriad variables,so to start off I would say that dosage is below lethal dose for the animal ( dog or sheep/cow/venison etc ) and that exposure has ended .

In other words -if you come across a deer /cow after the kaboom,you know it comes recently from the next county over were dangerous fallout has been registered -what would the recommended wait ? I am of course talking a situation were you have to eat or perish sooner rather than later .

Smoking meat inhances drying which will significantly extend shelf life of meat. While vegetation is not generally smoked (no comments needed) drying does the same for them. Key to success is thin slicing. Salt, if available, is used to speed the drawing of moisture out of the flesh. The quicker you can get it dried the better, especially if it's fly season (when it's not too cool/cold for them). Mutton should be able to be dried, though pork is iffy. Pork probably can be if sliced thin and fat cut off. Fat should be trimmed from any meat your drying as it will go rancid, it does not dry. Exception is pemmican the Indians (PC.. Native Americans) made. It was dried and pounded flesh, usually buffalo or venison, mixed with dried and pounded berries (sand cherries and juneberries come to mind). This dried mix was blended with hot melted tallow, but not so hot as to cook the meat. The dried meat is RAW.
Pork especially should ALWAYS be cooked well before eating because of the diseases they carry.. tricinosis (sp)[worms that get into the muscles.. nasty and painful from what I understand and if they get in the heart muscle.. well...] especially, but others as well are passable to humans.

As for radiation contaminated critters.. skin carefully only animals that do not appear sick. If in doubt, do without.. Bury the hides, unless your desperate and VERY careful. Lots of variable there, discretion is needed. All animals organs, esp livers and lungs, should be inspected for lesions. IF they are suspect I do NOT advise eating the critter.. this is tame and wild guys...
I do not recommend eating brain or spinal column from animals either. Mad cow disease is said to be where that comes from more than the flesh. So word of caution.

Most fish I think are good to dry. My only experience is with trout/salmon. Again salt helps the process. Oily fish are not as good as the flakier ones. Fish have been dried for millenia, as has land flesh or their sea partners (whale, seal, etc) As I recall saying, lutefisk anyone ;)

(know I have forgotten already some of what I wrote before so this may ramble some)

Potatoes store well in 'root cellars'. cool basements, or even heaps covered with dirt and straw. Where ever they stay cool and out of light without freezing. Store only the best and eat the rest as soon as possible to prevent spoilage from bruised/scarred tubers.. This holds true for other roots as well, such as turnips, carrots, etc. We stored in burlap sacks of ca. 50 pounds in a room in our cellar. Not a true root cellar, but it worked quite well. If there is a sign of spolage, isolate the spoilage and get rid of it, and use the 'good' items from that batch as soon as possible. And it does not take long for a batch to go bad, so check often. Properly stored they can be had from harvest to the harvest of new potatoes, depending on you seasons.

Spuds can be grown well in the stacked tires or pails... tire stacks are better IMO. Place the first tire down, fill with soil and plant you spud. Peeling with enough flesh to get the plant going will work.. make sure there is at least one eye in each piece you plant. As the plant grows, add another tire, filling with dirt as the plant keeps coming up. Don't bury too deep, just keep is filling as the plant grows out of the soil.

Morer specifics, feel free to ask.

grae

[Nowhere Man 1966]

To spice up any dish, add salt and fresh-ground people.

Webstral

Long pork on rye!! Hold the Mayo!!! :D:cool:

Chuck

[Graebarde]

I see where the 'deleted' post has reappeared, at least on my machine, so just shuffle the them because there was different side bars in each..

[HorseSoldier]

Some good points about regional cuisine, et al.

Pottery was developed specifically in response to the threat rodents pose to stored grain. This is not to say that cats don't have their place. (I hear them's good eatin') However, any dry container impervious to the teeth of mice and rats should do. Keeping the bugs out is a bit more of a trick, though far from impossible.

Given enough time, I seem to recall that rats have been observed to gnaw through sheet metal to get into things they want. In other words -- rat suppression calls for a good offense as well as a good defense, since given enough freedom of maneuver, they'll get into anything with available calories in it.

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

[Webstral]

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

A very good point. Perhaps a bit of grain might serve as an effective lure.

Webstral

[pmulcahy11b]

Of course, in the Twilight 2000 setting, cats would like be supplemented or replaced by 12 year old kids with slingshots and snares doing some hunting for the stew pot.

If you can get a thick, heavy rubber band and stretch it over a stick, you can actually kill a rat with it, or at least stun it enough to run over and beat it to death. My friends and I used to do that in Hawaii (teenagers can be cruel, can't they?). Sounds like another post-apoc food-gathering activity for kids.

[headquarters]

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat .

I hear some also place pots with lids secured inside and dig over with dirt .

Other ways of cooking outdoors or with archaic methods are also of interest.

Any information would be useful to me - I actually want to try it out for fun .

[headquarters]

If you can get a thick, heavy rubber band and stretch it over a stick, you can actually kill a rat with it, or at least stun it enough to run over and beat it to death. My friends and I used to do that in Hawaii (teenagers can be cruel, can't they?). Sounds like another post-apoc food-gathering activity for kids.

rat...

I guess it would be a staple meat in some cases.

[jester]

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat .

I hear some also place pots with lids secured inside and dig over with dirt .

Other ways of cooking outdoors or with archaic methods are also of interest.

Any information would be useful to me - I actually want to try it out for fun .


Yes, there are several ways. One can use a "dutch over" or similiar cast iron vessels, this is also done with hot coals. Some scout masters with a troop i work with can even bake with this method.

A person can also use crockery for cooking.

And of course using tin foil which is common, wet burlap or banana leaves.

And then of course you calso use flat stones to cook on as well.

I have had pig, fish, clams, oysters, chicken, potatoes, onions, carrots and corn cooked in this manner.

My grandfather also had a method of cooking birds, wrap them in mud/clay and cook until it drys and wait then serve. I think he picked it up durring his travels in China in the 30s.

Really alot of it is like cooking in a slow cooker, long slow low heat.

[Mock26]

Another way to cook is to make a hobo stove out of a #10 or similar size can.

http://blog.outdoorzy.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/hobo-stove.jpg

The hobo stove is the can on the bottom. Campfires are great as they provide heat and you can cook over them, but they are a big waste of fuel. Small homemade stoves like this are much more efficient for cooking. Of course, in a fantasy world lack of firewood might not be a problem, but depending on where your game takes place, it could be.

[Mock26]

Yes, there are several ways. One can use a "dutch over" or similiar cast iron vessels, this is also done with hot coals. Some scout masters with a troop i work with can even bake with this method.

A person can also use crockery for cooking.

And of course using tin foil which is common, wet burlap or banana leaves.

And then of course you calso use flat stones to cook on as well.

I have had pig, fish, clams, oysters, chicken, potatoes, onions, carrots and corn cooked in this manner.

My grandfather also had a method of cooking birds, wrap them in mud/clay and cook until it drys and wait then serve. I think he picked it up durring his travels in China in the 30s.

Really alot of it is like cooking in a slow cooker, long slow low heat.

When I was a Scout Master I did a lot of cooking of various items packed in clay. There really is not much that you cannot cook in this way. It is especially great for baked potatoes.

[WallShadow]

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat .

I hear some also place pots with lids secured inside and dig over with dirt .

Other ways of cooking outdoors or with archaic methods are also of interest.

Any information would be useful to me - I actually want to try it out for fun .

Look for a book called "Jack-knife Cookery" by James Austin Wilder, written by a "white kanaka" who grew up in Hawaii, was a Sea Scout, travelled the world on merchant ships, learned umpteen different ways to cook with little or no cookware--often just a knife, the food and whatever else nature had provided--leaves, sticks, seaweed, hot stones, tree bark, whatever.

My wife and I used several of the concepts cooking during various time periods of reenactments we've attended. Our favorite method was a "keyhole firepit". This is a rectangular shallow trench for the crossbar/spit, with an extension of the pit from one end where a cylindrical hole, just a bit larger than the diameter of our 6-quart cast iron 3-legged kettle. Make a good bed of coals while you're cooking on the spit or hanging pots from the bar, then scrape some coals into the hole, insert the covered kettle (filled with whatever you were going to cook), scrape some more coals on top, reinsert sod plug over the kettle. My wife made some killer potatoes (with onions and turmeric) overnight that were perfect for breakfast the next morning. You'll always find new "friends" on hand when your food starts perfuming the campsite.

We've cooked bread on sticks, baked potatoes in hot ashes, made apple cobbler out of dry stores and dehydrated apples. I've made impromptu cookpots out of coffee cans and heavy iron wire for bails. I love cooking over a campfire! It's a great way to teach kids about responsibility and economy--when you're hauling and cutting your own firewood that has to last for your entire stay, you learn not to waste it with huge conflagrations, and you learn that the fire gets taken care of before anyone goes off to play.

[Targan]

I was wondering if anyone on the boards had tried to cookin a pit - a hole lined with stones that you fire with wood for a few hours ,and then place a parcel of meat etc in and cover with dirt to cook on the residual heat.

Absolutely I have! I'm a New Zealander. The Maori people of New Zealand cook using a method known as the Hangi. Rather than try to describe how it is done I'll direct you to this site: http://www.wikihow.com/Put-Down-a-Hangi . It has a pretty good description of how it is done. Take it from me, food cooked this way tastes great!

[headquarters]

thanks guys - I am going to try some of these out when we go up north in September for our "week of manly living outdoors and acting like we dont sit in front of computers for a living -week".

Cant wait to go .

[HorseSoldier]

You could check the various Bushcrafting web sites and web forums. Most of them have information about various forms of low tech/low equipment demand sorts of cooking.

[Mock26]

thanks guys - I am going to try some of these out when we go up north in September for our "week of manly living outdoors and acting like we dont sit in front of computers for a living -week".

Cant wait to go .

Check out Wood Gasification Stoves. They are wood burning backpacking stoves. You can buy commercial ones like the Bush Buddy (http://www.bushbuddy.ca/) or make your own. (http://www.instructables.com/id/Can-Stove/) I have the Bush Buddy and it is an absolutely fantastic little stove, and at 6 oz. in weight it is certainly something I can see a Twilight 2000 soldier carrying around in their pack.

[Graebarde]

rat...

I guess it would be a staple meat in some cases.

Actually 'field rats' are not any worse than squirrel or rabbit. Hey, once the meat is in the stew pot and falls off the bone, well.........

Have had the rat on several occassions. ;)

[jturfitt]

When I was in the Philippines in 1977-78, they used to have rat drives in the fields. They would line up on all four sides of a field with sticks and clubs. One side would walk through the field making noise and drive the rats toward the edged of the field where the other people would club them. Field rat was considered a delicacy.

[headquarters]

Check out Wood Gasification Stoves. They are wood burning backpacking stoves. You can buy commercial ones like the Bush Buddy (http://www.bushbuddy.ca/) or make your own. (http://www.instructables.com/id/Can-Stove/) I have the Bush Buddy and it is an absolutely fantastic little stove, and at 6 oz. in weight it is certainly something I can see a Twilight 2000 soldier carrying around in their pack.

Love the look and tech of this one - I have like 7 stoves already , but not one that runs on plain wood .

Come pay day I am going to get one I think .

I have also ben considering a " Kelly Kettle"

http://www.kellykettle.com/

But my budget is already blown on boots,ventile smocks etc etc ( bit of a gear head ).

Cheers for the god tip.

[headquarters]

Actually 'field rats' are not any worse than squirrel or rabbit. Hey, once the meat is in the stew pot and falls off the bone, well.........

Have had the rat on several occassions. ;)

should be untried I say - I would no doubt try it if I could get it .And I do not believe that a little garbage in their diet is such a bad thing -look at hogs - some get the peelings,leftovers and whatnot every day before they grace our platters as bacon.

How did it taste ? ( like its seasoning maybe - but I gotta ask -is it like chicken ? )

[pmulcahy11b]

So, how long do you think it would take in T2K before some people resorted to the Soylent Green option?

[HorseSoldier]

I'd guess cases of cannibalism start turning up during the winter of 97-98 after the nukes fly and tractor trailer loads of food stop turning up to replenish the local grocery store.

Probably more commonly its an issue of poorly armed, poorly equipped (both in terms of hardware as well as know how) civilians preying on other civilians in the Twilight game universe, where food is not wildly scarce and the population isn't falling down to the 90%+ death toll. People in military units, and even larger marauder bands, would be able to shake down somebody else for enough food to not have to resort to cannibalism.

Of course, there'd always be room for cannibal cult/armies like in Pournelle/Niven's Lucifer's Hammer as a possibly extra ugly opponent for PCs. Might not work that well in Poland/Germany, where surviving troop densities would make pretty short work of a big pack of ghouls, but back CONUS, or the uncontrolled parts of the UK, etc., they'd work.

[Targan]

I know not everyone here has access to the Challenge Magazine T2K mini modules but I consider them to be canon and the Rifle River mini module in Challenge issue #39 deals with events surrounding a death cult cannibal army fighting its way up the Connecticut River in October 2001 in an attempt to reach pre-war small arms factories including the Colt plant at Hartford. An excellent module IMO.

[Webstral]

For obvious reasons, I've taken the liberty of modifying the Rifle River cannibals. My ideas for a horde in northern New England turned out to be so close to the Rifle River villains that I've pretty much incorporated them into the Blood Cross horde. Off-canon? Yes. Terribly off-canon? Probably not. I think it's entirely possible to play the mini-module as listed with a few fairly modest variations. I don't deal New England quite the hammer blow that GDW did back in the day, but more than half of the population is dead. By early 2001, marauders are finding that the surviving Yankees have fortified their towns and that almost everyone left alive who isn't a marauder has retreated inside walls somewhere. Small bands of marauders are either combining forces or being eaten up by the larger bands--in some cases, quite literally. The horde of the Blood Cross has survived the winter of 2000-2001 by eating everything left in northern Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine--including the locals. Very ugly, but at least the surviving cantonments of New England have no illusions about the price of failing to deal with these guys.

Webstral

[headquarters]

I have seen in movies and read about people that have human flesh in their diet :
they may develop some sort of neural problem leading to shaking hands,jitters etc .

can anyone confirm this ?

( See book of Eli where this is what Denzel Washington notices about the elderly cannibal couple who have them over for tea)

[pmulcahy11b]

I have seen in movies and read about people that have human flesh in their diet :
they may develop some sort of neural problem leading to shaking hands,jitters etc .

Two things came to mind when I read that:

1) Mad Cow Disease -- the human flesh may be transmitting some sort of disease, enzymes, or prions that are incompatible with human digestion or metabolism.

2) Kuru, also called the Laughing Disease. In the Western Pacific (in Indonesia?) there are a group of people called the Fore. They regularly practiced cannibalism, and when the brain was eaten, there was a chance you could get Kuru, which screws up your nerve impulses and causes muscular spasms. At its worst (usually right before death), Kuru causes spasms in the diaphragm that make the person kind of sound like they're laughing.

Here's a Wiki link for Kuru
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%28disease%29

It turns out that both are a form of spongiform encephalopathy, and are caused by prions -- which is just a fancy way of saying that nasty proteins are eating your brain.

[headquarters]

a rump steak or filet of breast is OK , but once you start getting into brains and marrow you can get the tell tale shaking hands ?

My players might ask themselves - "why is he harping on about this all of a sudden ??"

No particular reason ,guys

;)

[Ironside]

For obvious reasons, I've taken the liberty of modifying the Rifle River cannibals. My ideas for a horde in northern New England turned out to be so close to the Rifle River villains that I've pretty much incorporated them into the Blood Cross horde. <snip> Loads of good stuff </snip>
Webstral

Care to expand?

[pmulcahy11b]

a rump steak or filet of breast is OK , but once you start getting into brains and marrow you can get the tell tale shaking hands ?

It's possible to get spongiform encephalopathy from the meat of an infected creature, but in a human, most prions appear to be concentrated in the brain. I did some further Googling, and it appears that if they're your own prions, you don't get spongiform encephalopathy, but prions from somewhere else can cause spongiform encephalopathy. It is hypothesized that prions from somewhere else cause an immune system reaction, causing the proteins already in your brain to fold into a shape that kills cells and neurons. But scientists don't really know for sure what the mechanism is that causes spongiform encephalopathy.

(My previous psychiatrist, Dr Aneta Schunemeyer, told me once that scientists and doctors understand less than 20% of how the brain actually works -- and most of that understanding is rough and sketchy. She told me that psychiatry and neurology are more like arts than sciences.)

[Webstral]

Care to expand?

I never did add the rest of the New England to my guide, did I? Fatherhood and grad school have taken a real bite out of my creative writing time.

In a nutshell, by Winter 2000 New England largely has transitioned to a new modus operendi. The Last Submarine serves as my starting point. I'm sure everyone's read enough about Poseidon's Rifles for now, so I won't repeat myself here other than to remark on the fact that the Coast Guard controls the coast of New Hampshire and southern Maine. Throughout the 1998-1999 timeframe, New England makes a painful transition to self-sufficiency in food. During these two years, almost two-thirds of the population dies--principally from exposure and disease brought on by poor sanitation and vulnerability as a result of malnutrition. Violence is also a leading cause of death.

Throughout 1998, law and order is fading but recognizable. Although describing the events of every locale is beyond the scope of this thumbnail sketch, in general the flight from the big cities imposes a huge burden on New England. However, winter solves a lot of the problems. Legions of urbanites die of exposure, along with countless locals who live within easy walking distance of the highways.

Come spring, communities everywhere attempt to make the transition to partial self-sufficiency at least. Some areas are far more successful than others. Where food runs short, chaos spreads. Small-scale banditry becomes more organized. Throughout New England, citizens attempt to respond by forming neighborhood watches that are the precursors of militias. Many bandits organize even further and move to secret or defensible locations.

Initially, military forces in the region are able to deal with the new bandit gangs. What the police can’t handle gets turned over the military, who are able to use numbers and firepower to overcome outlaw resistance. A classic example of this is the fighting between forces of the New Hampshire Army National Guard and megapunks in southern New Hampshire in early 1998. Unfortunately for the New Englanders, the start of the Second Mexican-American War changes everything. Army and Air Force National Guard and Reserve units are drawn out of New England to reinforce Fifth and Sixth US Armies in the Southwest and Ninth US Army in the Pacific Northwest. Law and order take a body blow.

As the power of marauders grows, surviving New Englanders move into fortified towns or neighborhoods. Tracts of nearly uninhabited land between towns and urban neighborhoods grow. Communities increasingly resemble medieval towns and cities. The dying continues, but the pace begins to slow.

By the end of the harvest in 2000, the transition is nearly complete. New England has become a patchwork of city-states with varying degrees of defensibility and self-sufficiency. With somewhat less than a third of its pre-war population surviving (around four million), New England has reached a rough equilibrium.

The new danger comes from super-gangs of marauders. Unable to tackle the defenses of the new city-states (the smallest of which have been exterminated or taken over in 2000), the marauders adapt. While some prey on each other, others join together. Under the leadership of the charismatic and messianic Archbishop Smite, a great horde has assembled in northern New England. Wintering over in towns like Berlin, NH, the horde has survived throughout the winter by eating everything—including the locals.

Smite has succeeded by addressing the needs of the marauders. They are desperate people who have done terrible things. He tells them that the archangel Gabriel has given him a message that the nuclear exchange was intended to be Armageddon; however, the job was not completed. All of the marauders have received God’s silent message to cleanse and purify the world in anticipation of Judgment Day. Therefore, they are not to be blamed for their acts. In fact, the marauders are holy warriors carrying out the will of God Almighty. Under the leadership of the Archbishop Smite, the horde has been charged with purifying the land and converting those who can be saved during a great southward crusade. The final goal? The last great cathedral—the Washington Cathedral. There, all of God’s servants will be taken up to glory for executing His will.

Smite uses very Nazi-esque tactics to control and direct his converts. Torchlight religious ceremonies, combined with stark imagery and sermons, have welded together disparate and fractious groups. Cannibalism by necessity has become cannibalism as holy sacrament. The sinful flesh of non-believers is purified by ritual and consumed, used thereby to fuel the crusade of the righteous.

It’s going to be a tough planting season in New England.


Webstral

[headquarters]

Web - that is some scary imagery you conjure .

I like it a lot !

:D

The bleakness and the terrible depths inhuman nature are another part of the T2K universe that the discussions on TOE and OOB discussions cant fully convey.

[Ironside]

That's grotesque, disgusting and very believeable :D

Thanks a lot!

[HorseSoldier]

a rump steak or filet of breast is OK , but once you start getting into brains and marrow you can get the tell tale shaking hands ?

My players might ask themselves - "why is he harping on about this all of a sudden ??"

No particular reason ,guys

;)

It's unlikely unless you're dealing with a population where Kuru is endemic, such as the aforementioned folks in New Guineau. I don't think it's been identified elsewhere (one of my cohort-mates in Grad School did a pretty involved paper and subsequent presentation on it), but I suppose that's possibly because no one has looked for it.

And, of course, in an RPG there's nothing to say it hasn't turned up unexpectedly in a way that would make surviving scientists scratch their heads in confusion.

[HorseSoldier]

That's grotesque, disgusting and very believeable :D

Thanks a lot!

Does sound like a great setting -- plausible, nasty, lots of potential scenarios and adventure hooks.

[pmulcahy11b]

It's unlikely unless you're dealing with a population where Kuru is endemic, such as the aforementioned folks in New Guineau. I don't think it's been identified elsewhere (one of my cohort-mates in Grad School did a pretty involved paper and subsequent presentation on it), but I suppose that's possibly because no one has looked for it.

And, of course, in an RPG there's nothing to say it hasn't turned up unexpectedly in a way that would make surviving scientists scratch their heads in confusion.

Boy, that'd make an interesting and gruesome civilization-ending pandemic -- maybe it started out in the food supply, then mutated into an airborne version...

[Mock26]

a rump steak or filet of breast is OK , but once you start getting into brains and marrow you can get the tell tale shaking hands ?

My players might ask themselves - "why is he harping on about this all of a sudden ??"

No particular reason ,guys

;)

I cannot speak of human marrow (and I do not wish to), but slow roasted veal bones produces some incredibly tasty marrow!

[Webstral]

On a more benign note, the coastal population of New England eats a lot of fish and other seafood. The list of Canadian targets indicates that the Atlantic Canadians really got punished in the nuclear exchange. (Sorry, eh) A lot of the population, a lot of the fishing boats, and a lot of the Canadian Navy and Coast Guard have been destroyed. First District has led the way in exploiting the fishing opportunities that have "opened up" at George's Bank.

There have been some unhappy incidents between Canadians and Americans over fishing at George's Bank. While the USCG and the fleet under its protection seldom have instigated the problems, the American Guardians haven't set high standards for intervening unless things appear to be going against the UBF, the Gloucestermen, or other American fishermen. One might even go so far as to say that some of the First District raids against pirates along the coasts of the Atlantic Provinces have been based on flimsy definitions of piracy and even weaker evidence. This is going to be a problem later during Reconstruction, as the Canadians aren't likely to forget that ships and marines flying the Stars and Stripes made some very questionable incursions into the Canadian littoral.

AUTHOR'S NOTE: I don't condone combat between Americans and Canadians in any way, shape, or form. This is simply my read on how things would evolve based on published materials, the nature of Twilight: 2000, and the natural consequences of some of my own creations. Also, the idea that the naval firepower of First District has been focused on securing fishing privileges and other actions for MilGov helps explain why the Coast Guard hasn't dealt with John Carlucci and the UBF.

In many parts of New England, wild produce of the woods plays an important part of the diet. Obviously, small game and fowl are important. Other foods, including mushrooms and tubers that grow throughout the New England forests, supplement diets of domesticated foods. People gathering these foods, as well as people salvaging useful goods from abandoned tracts of housing and industry, are at great risk to the bands of marauders that roam the areas outside the towns. Good scouts are worth their weight in gold to everyone.

Webstral

[jester]

Kuru aka Mad Cow Disease aka Jacob Krutchfelds Disease is all the same.

It comes not from bone marrow, but the nerve tissue of infected creatures. Most associate it with the brain, which is the biggest nerve of course, but other nerves also are infected and their injestion causes the disease.

On a note, a person can have it but it is dormant like any other disease, and well if they end up on the platter the people who eat the infected tissues have a chance of getting it, but it developing well that is part of the question how it affects some and not others.

They also have the theory that if the meat is cooked to a specific temperature then the disease is killed, much like cooking pork or chicken.

So, if you ever find yourself in New Guinea or the South Seas and are the guest of honor....not that guest of honor ;) Make sure you ask for your WELL DONE!

[Graebarde]

should be untried I say - I would no doubt try it if I could get it .And I do not believe that a little garbage in their diet is such a bad thing -look at hogs - some get the peelings,leftovers and whatnot every day before they grace our platters as bacon.

How did it taste ? ( like its seasoning maybe - but I gotta ask -is it like chicken ? )

ROTFLMAO.. nope not like chicken. Best I can describe it is like wild rabbit or squirrel (other rodents I've eaten) in texture at least. It was cooked/brazed over wood fire, so was smokey.. and a bit of salt added. Not really bad..

Most of what people do not want to eat or even try is all psychological.. mind over matter.. get it out of the mind it don't matter.

[Targan]

Most of what people do not want to eat or even try is all psychological.. mind over matter.. get it out of the mind it don't matter.

True. If they are hungry enough people will eat nearly anything. I remember a discussion here a while back in which North Korea's last big famine was mentioned - people there were eating things like soft inner tree bark and grass shoots. People have even boiled up boot and belt leather to eat when they are starving. But us soft westerners are often squeemish about trying something new in an Asian restaurant!

I'll eat all sorts of things that my girlfriend refuses to eat. Some things I can kind of understand but she won't even indulge my love of kangaroo meat. She thinks it is like eating Skippy. But there are millions and millions of kangaroos in Australia and they make for a much more sustainable food source than cattle or sheep. Hard-hooved animals tear up the ground in Australia (which is mostly quite arid) and cause soil erosion and degradation. Kangaroos are soft-footed and can eat all kinds of flora without getting sick. A much more sensible food source IMO.

[Mock26]

True. If they are hungry enough people will eat nearly anything. I remember a discussion here a while back in which North Korea's last big famine was mentioned - people there were eating things like soft inner tree bark and grass shoots. People have even boiled up boot and belt leather to eat when they are starving. But us soft westerners are often squeemish about trying something new in an Asian restaurant!

I'll eat all sorts of things that my girlfriend refuses to eat. Some things I can kind of understand but she won't even indulge my love of kangaroo meat. She thinks it is like eating Skippy. But there are millions and millions of kangaroos in Australia and they make for a much more sustainable food source than cattle or sheep. Hard-hooved animals tear up the ground in Australia (which is mostly quite arid) and cause soil erosion and degradation. Kangaroos are soft-footed and can eat all kinds of flora without getting sick. A much more sensible food source IMO.

To date there has only been one food that I have refused to try, and that was Surströmming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnfEVqNdoA

[pmulcahy11b]

To date there has only been one food that I have refused to try, and that was Surströmming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcnfEVqNdoA

Now he just needs to find a girl to torture...I mean kiss...it would be the same thing.

[Ironside]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

[helbent4]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

Ironside,

I imagine you could still drink tea, it just wouldn't be from India or tea plants in general. Nettle tea is an example of a herbal tea that is also supposed to have healing properties.

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

I'd have the same problem with a lack of Pepsi - <shiver> withdrawal symptoms...

[HorseSoldier]

Tea, but without caffeine, wouldn't quite be the same. About as fun as using chicory instead of coffee.

[Legbreaker]

Anyone with the forethought to plant out a few greenhouses with tea would make a mint!

[pmulcahy11b]

Anyone with the forethought to plant out a few greenhouses with tea would make a mint!

Or a mint tea :D ...OK, bad joke.

[helbent4]

Or a mint tea :D ...OK, bad joke.

Paul

No, that was actually worth a chuckle!

Tony

[pmulcahy11b]

One thing is that while cat food is not properly nutritionally balanced for a human over the long term, dog food is. I occasionally eat a handful of my dogs' dry food -- it makes a tasty light snack. I've tasted their canned food -- it's a bit bland, but nutritionally good for a human as well. Dog food could be useful for humans in T2K as well as their dogs.

[Canadian Army]

One thing is that while cat food is not properly nutritionally balanced for a human over the long term, dog food is. I occasionally eat a handful of my dogs' dry food -- it makes a tasty light snack. I've tasted their canned food -- it's a bit bland, but nutritionally good for a human as well. Dog food could be useful for humans in T2K as well as their dogs.

or just eat the dog or cat.

[dragoon500ly]

I'd have the same problem with a lack of Pepsi - <shiver> withdrawal symptoms...

Dear God! A world without Pepsi!?!? While that may make Coke happy, the inhumanity!!!!

[dragoon500ly]

I'd have the same problem with a lack of Pepsi - <shiver> withdrawal symptoms...

A world without Pepsi! While Coke may be happy with that...the inhumanity!!!

[Rockwolf66]

I'd have the same problem with a lack of Pepsi - <shiver> withdrawal symptoms...

Since i can't stand the taste of pepsi without a ton of added salt...I'll give you any pepsi i run across. :D

problem Solved.

[pmulcahy11b]

or just eat the dog or cat.

I could never eat one of my dogs -- I'd rather eat a person.

[Legbreaker]

mmmmm, Solent Green....
:satangrin

[WallShadow]

or just eat the dog or cat.

Ummm...remember in the 14th century, when the European populace killed all the cats they could because the cats were thought to be witches' familiars and responsible for the plague? The cats that might have kept the rodent factor of the flea-borne disease vector population down?

And often, cats bring "gifts" to their humans--birds, mice, rats, snakes, moles, voles.

I'd be trying to keep my cats and dogs in good health as a public health and safety measure! And besides, they're loyal to me--I keep them fed in tough times.

On a totally different topic: sprouting beans. Sprouting dried beans is very easy--Soak the beans for about 4 hours or so, the pour off the liquid, keep them damp in a moderately warm/stable temperature in a shaded location. Full sunlight will encourage the sprouts to go leafy, which may be fine if you want to plant them, but not as an immediate food source. Rinse and drain the beans several times a day; after about 2 days, you will see the sprout emerging from the hull. The sprouts are at their peak at about day 7--eat them raw or cook them. They have lots of certain B-vitamins (B1, B2, and B3) and vitamins A and C--important for scurvy and vision impairment prevention. Note: according to my best source, soybean- and Kidney bean sprouts are toxic. Some sprouted beans may contain natural defensive enzymes that may inhibit fat and protein absorption: these need to be cooked before eating them. http://www.growyouthful.com/recipes/sprouts.php One of the episodes of Jericho had the techno-geek girl mentioning how the bean sprouts were coming along well--important when they were going to be the main source of Vitamin C as winter continued.

Lastly, a word about lentils, the lovely little lens-shaped legume that is a great ingredient. Lentils do not have to be soaked overnight: they take about 45 minutes of cooking to be edible. They are a great protein source and have a broad range of uses, whether ground up or in their natural form. Lots of Middle Eastern and South Asian dishes include them. And you can sprout them (see above).

[bobcat]

:rolleyes:goat, dates, chai...
...wait thats a long patrol in iraq...:D

but seriously
in my area it would mostly be cattails, elderberries, spearmint tea, dandilions, and any meat we can acquire. (also corn since so many people plant patches for the deer)

[WallShadow]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?
Do just what your forefathers did--go out and conquer an empire to grow and process it, spreading cricket to the poor benighted 'eathens as a side-effect :rolleyes:

[Graebarde]

A world without Pepsi! While Coke may be happy with that...the inhumanity!!!

Ahh, if there's no Pepsi, I highly doubt there will be Coke.. or <sigh> Dr Pepper.

[Graebarde]

Anyone with the forethought to plant out a few greenhouses with tea would make a mint!

Yep, however it's not as simple as it sounds. Tea is raised as far north as South Carolina however with some success. There is a large plantation of tea over there, much closer than Ceylon. Of course in 2000 I don't know what condition it would be in.

[Graebarde]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

Barley pop!!! Malt the barley, extract the malt, add hops if you can or prefer, ferment the extraction, age for a bit.. :))

[Graebarde]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

Barley pop!!! Malt the barley, extract the malt, add hops if you can or prefer, ferment the extraction, age for a bit.. :))

[Graebarde]

I've just had a horrible thought. What are we Brits going to drink instead of tea in the aftermath?

Anyone have any ideas?

Barley pop!!! The same stuff they drank before the addiction to tea?

[dragoon500ly]

Here's a listing of the edible plants that can be used to make tea

Bearbearry AKA Kinnikinnick; found in the artic and subartic regions, the young leaves can be brewed to make a refreshing tea

Blackberries, raspberries and dewbarries; found in temperate regions, the leaves are used to make tea, if suffering from diarrhea, brew a tea from the dried root bark of the blackberry bush.

Broad leaf lawn plantain: found in the north temperate regions, a tea to treat diarrhea can be made from 1 ounce of this plant boiled in one pint of water.

Chickory; native of Europe and Asia, found in Africa and North America; doesn't brew a tea, but can be used as a coffee substitute.

Dandelion; grows throughout the Northern Hemisphere; the roots can be roasted and ground as a coffee substitute.

Juniper; roast the seeds and ground and use as a coffee substitute, the young twigs can be vrewed to make a tea.

Nutsedge; grows in sandy areas throughout the world, the tubers can be roasted and ground and used for a coffee substitute.

Oaks; throughout Europe, North and Central America and parts of Europe and Asia; the acorns can be baked until dark, then ground and used as a coffee substitute.

Persimmon; throughout Africa, North America and the Far East; dry the leaves and soak them in hot water to make a tea.

Sassafras; a common tree in Eastern North America; dig the undergroun portion of the tree, peel off the bark and let it dry, thne boil it in water to make a tea.

[Graebarde]

sorry for the multiple multiple posts. dang lagging machine.

[dragoon500ly]

Since we're talking about tea, remember this little tidbit?

Mindful of the possibility of desperate shortages in materials critical to the war effort, in 1940 the British government moved to corner the market on what it considered its most precious strategic resouce, establishing a worldwide monopoly on tea. At the height of the war, Great Britain maintained stockpiles of about 150 million tons of the stuff, eneough to brew up about 6 trillion cups. So critical was tea to the British war effort that only ammunition had a higher priority than tea for delivery to troops in action.

Source is "Dirty Little Secrets of World War II" byJames Dunnigna and Albert Nofi

[simonmark6]

Too right, you can kill the enemy without ammunition, but without a cuppa the average Tommy isn't going anywhere!

[Raellus]

A brief and interesting article by a sci-fi/food writer (from NPR).

http://www.npr.org/2013/07/13/201181637/food-in-science-fiction-in-the-future-we-will-all-eat-lasers?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130715

Food seems to be neglected in RPGs too. When I GM, I don't really make an issue of it. It's very rarely that my players post something about eating. In the other games I play in, food is rarely, if ever, an issue. It just seems to be taken for granted that food is available and that the PCs eat it. In a post-apoc world, this doesn't seem right. In computer/console RPGs, food is usually used only as a mode of minor healing.

I think that food should play a bigger part in RPGs, especially T2K. First off, it's necessary for basic survival. Getting it should be one of the players' primary concerns. When it's generally scarce, food also becomes currency. Why can't one barter with food in a post-apoc video game like Fallout 3 (one of my all-time fav's). And lastly, food is a social lubricant. Meal times are opportunities to get together and chat. In a social game, like an RPG, this doesn't seem to happen enough. I find this quite ironic because the one FtF I participate in is also always pot-luck and we tend to gnosh throughout.

[JHart]

I'm with you Raellus. In most of the T2K pbems I played in, my characters were concerned with clean water and where their next meal was coming from. I tend to think there would be very few horses available outside of military forces that could enforce the survival of horses. It would take very disciplined civilians to resist the urge to eat livestock and the fodder necessary to keep livestock alive. Assuming livestock survived hungry armies and nuclear war.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

In my campaign world, in and around Orlando most food is grown (FL is a very arable place) and meat comes mostly from chickens and wild pigs. You've got to have some connections to get a good piece of beef.

In the city proper, a few "fast food" places are still operated in their original locations, this at the behest of MilGov: projecting a sense of normalcy is helping to maintain calm among the 50000 or so civilians living in the greater Orlando area. Now...you may have to trade work to get a "burger" at "McDonalds" and the menu will vary according to what's available day-to-day, but the fact that you can get a modicum of food, in one of those ubiquitous white, red and yellow bags (drinks are tea, OJ or water - Cokes exist but not for the common man), or a "sub" from Subway, goes a long way to helping MilGov maintain control.

Again, it's expensive, the menus are limited, the portions small, but the psychological impact is huge.

[Sanjuro]

If you're worried about BSE...
At the height of the BSE scare in the UK, a dairy farmer named Mark Purdey raised an alternative theory about the cause of its transmission- he initially blamed the organophosphates used to treat cattle for warble fly. He then set about learning the science to research this theory.
After extensive work, he discovered that cattle treated with Phosmet (the generally used cattle insecticide) did not automatically have BSE-type prions in their bloodstream- they did, however, have raised levels of normally-occurring prions.
Purdey then set about researching spongiform encephalitis in general. He discovered it occurs in all continents, in a variety of mammals- but that it occurs in clusters. He visited many of the areas, to try and discover their common factor.
The common factor in ALL worldwide clusters of spongiform encephalitis is this: the soil has a high level of Manganese, and a very low level of Copper. Manganese in the diet is essential- but only in small quantities. High levels are not a problem- as long as you are getting enough copper.
Incidentally, remember that pine-needle tea mentioned earlier in the thread? Pine needles concentrate manganese...

[simonmark6]

I'm inclined to agree as well but in some ways it depends on what the PCs are interested in. I'm always happy to digress and look for food etc but many seem to just want to move from fire fight to fire fight.

[bobcat]

i could honestly see combat rations go back to hardtack, pemmican, and coffee(or tea for the squaddies).

[Webstral]

I have just started an exciting book I received for Christmas. The book, Nature's Garden: A Guide to Identifying, Harvesting, and Preparing Edible Wild Plants, is a daunting tome filled with photographs and tables. However, the author's first chapter introduction to the book reads, well, deliciously. I'm greatly encouraged that this otherwise intimidating work will be digestible. I put this book on my wish list so I would have another resource for the distinct approach the Black Watch takes to (relatively) large scale survivalism in southern Vermont. The author goes so far as to address the issue of sustainability of edible wild plants, which has been one of my concerns with the Watch. I'll come back with notes as I wade through.

[Olefin]

I think that character backgrounds may also influence the ability of characters to gather food or find food even when its all around them. Not sure how many people watch Survivorman, a TV show about one man survival. It always amazes me how he manages to find something to eat that I would have never thought was edible. A party of characters who grew up in city probably could walk right past edible plants and never know what they were. Or not realize just how much food can be had from an animal (still shake my head ever time in the Survivor TV show that they catch fish or get chickens and throw away the bones - hasn't anyone ever heard of making broth?) and not properly be able to butcher it.

I think that cuisine in the T2K world is going to have a lot of things on the menu that people normally wouldn't eat - for that matter look at the Walking Dead episode that just aired tonight - who is up for a nice meal of fire roasted dog?

[jester]

Or reading any of the other books about wild edibles be it the Military Survival Manual or any of the other books out there.

Mustard plants are almost entirely edible, the same goes for cat tails and dandelions.

Or just going off of one of the lines from the survival manual, "If it walks, flies, swims or crawls it can be eaten!"

A lot of it comes from mindset and cultural morays.

When do we discuss survival cannibalism?

[unkated]

A couple things from skimming through this


Once upon a time, I devised a New England campaign setting, before Howling Wilderness came out. My New England was much more settled and centralized; it included (forcibly) recultivating the potato country of northern Maine. (As well as some large chunks of New York, CT, and Massachusetts.

The fishing industry will take a couple years to figure out how to re-rig for sail. (say 1998-2000) OTOH, the lack of fishery for a couple of years and the reduction of international fishermen will greatly allow the fish stocks to come back.

I'm picturing a scene in a post-apocalypic bar...
Barkeep: "Pepsi! We ain't had none since..."
Tough guy: "Listen, you! The Cola Wars is over..."


Uncle Ted

[.45cultist]

I have seen in movies and read about people that have human flesh in their diet :
they may develop some sort of neural problem leading to shaking hands,jitters etc .

can anyone confirm this ?

( See book of Eli where this is what Denzel Washington notices about the elderly cannibal couple who have them over for tea)

JKD, can't spell the "K" part, is when prions create holes in the brain.

[.45cultist]

T2013's E-teams reminded me of the Civil War's foragers.

[Olefin]

A couple things from skimming through this


Once upon a time, I devised a New England campaign setting, before Howling Wilderness came out. My New England was much more settled and centralized; it included (forcibly) recultivating the potato country of northern Maine. (As well as some large chunks of New York, CT, and Massachusetts.

The fishing industry will take a couple years to figure out how to re-rig for sail. (say 1998-2000) OTOH, the lack of fishery for a couple of years and the reduction of international fishermen will greatly allow the fish stocks to come back.

I'm picturing a scene in a post-apocalypic bar...
Barkeep: "Pepsi! We ain't had none since..."
Tough guy: "Listen, you! The Cola Wars is over..."


Uncle Ted

Great idea for an adventure there - your team gets hired by an "entrepeneur" who wants to have you retrieve the formula for Coke from the vault where it was stored in order to restart syrup production and thus giving him the only operational soft drink facility in the Western Hemisphere

[.45cultist]

Many a chicken wound up in a GI camp over the years. A fond tale from the Congo was an ex-legionaire saw the French misdrop supplies and ran to hide a crate. After lying to the troops looking for this crate, the unit enjoyed a French General's field food. Whole can chickens, truffle sauce, decent wine, etc.

[Targan]

JKD, can't spell the "K" part, is when prions create holes in the brain.

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Very similar to mad cow disease. It's sometimes still found in the highlands of New Guinea, where the locals call it Kuru.

[.45cultist]

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Very similar to mad cow disease. It's sometimes still found in the highlands of New Guinea, where the locals call it Kuru.

That's it! Boy I mangled the name on that.:o I'd stick with stretching livestock meat and veggies out by soups and stews. A drum, pork and poultry for "hobo stew".

[swaghauler]

I'm lucky. I live in the North East near the Allegheny National Forest. I have access to:
Elk
Bear
Bobcat
Deer
Feral Hogs
Fish
Groundhogs
Muskrat (known as Marsh Rabbit in the south)
Opossum
Rabbit
Raccoon
Squirrels
Wild Turkey
Water Fowl
and any other number of wild animals or remaining domestic livestock to hunt. We also have access to several vegetable sources that have already been listed by the rest of you.

[Silent Hunter UK]

In my part of the UK, the most common thing to find would be a squirrel.

[.45cultist]

Independence,MO still has it's "Victory Garden" laws allowing poultry in all neighborhoods, not just those designated "Rural-Agricultural" hence there are those who keep chickens, ducks in their yard. Rabbits are a quieter option, but depending on one's timeline, meat and garden fertilizer sources might be closer than one thinks in urban areas.

[jester]

Glad I live in a semi rural area....with a former duck hunting club long closed but we still have the ponds and flights plus local fauna....as for here, its plenty of horse people and cattle and even the odd llama and camel...even a two humper down the road.

[Olefin]

When I was in the Boy Scouts we did one camping trip where the goal was to see how much food we could gather ourselves from the woods - always amazes me how much you can find if you know what you are looking for - in the space of a few hours we found cattails, edible mushrooms, wild berries and other edibles - we didnt eat like kings but we ate - and on the second day using our campers 20 gauge single shot shotgun we added a rabbit to the pot as well

[raketenjagdpanzer]

One of my favorite guilty pleasures from the 1980s is a movie called Band of the Hand - basically a police social worker takes a bunch of fuck-ups and runs them through his own Outward Bound combined with Muscogee Indian training with a dash of SFOR training mixed in. He drags them out into the Everglades and teaches them Indian survival skills. The first meal he serves them is a soup of snails, wild greens and herbs, mushrooms and so on. A couple of the kids enjoy it, one throws up, and another (a cocaine dealer) wryly observes that "A bowl of soup like this would cost you $200 a plate at Coconut Grove in Miami."

Then later they (armed only with knives and spears) are walking in heavy woods and have an encounter with a wild boar; their "benefactor" says "We'll go around. Only wild men and Indians eat wild boar."

They all share a knowing look, then we jump cut to them feasting on wild boar around the campfire later that night.

Similarly, Bear Grylls (yeah, I know, his stuff is mostly set up) spent a couple of nights in the 'glades and had a pretty fine meal out there of tortoise and grapefruit (citrus is essentially a weed here in FL anymore).

I live on the outskirts of Orlando near a green belt and have seen bear (fatty, but good eating I'm told), innumerable gators (gamey but tasty!), deer (mmm venison) and too many members of phyla rodentia to mention, like rabbits, squirrels, and so forth...

[jester]

There are a couple problems with foraging and the rules cover it pretty well.

After a while they get harder and harder to find. Add the fact that more and more people are foraging for wild edibles and game that an area would be picked clean, and in some cases to the point it would have a hard time recovering.

Another factor, foraging is seasonal. This strikes home often in that show with Les Stroud, Dual Survival and Dude You're Screwed.

Then, there is the knowledge of edible items in an area. Some things in one area (or season for that matter) can go from edible to poison. Or just look alike items. A prime example is mushrooms.

[Olefin]

I forgot but is there anything in any of the various editions about combinining foraging with medical knowledge to specifically forage for medicinal herbs and the like? its one thing to know how to find food but another to find medical herbs and to know how to use them

[swaghauler]

During our foraging, let us not forget the official US Army food purification kit; Black Pepper and Frank's Red Hot Sauce. Because everyone knows that you can make virtually anything edible if you put enough black Pepper and Frank's Red Hot Sauce on it....

[pmulcahy11b]

During our foraging, let us not forget the official US Army food purification kit; Black Pepper and Frank's Red Hot Sauce. Because everyone knows that you can make virtually anything edible if you put enough black Pepper and Frank's Red Hot Sauce on it....

I put that sh-- on everything!

[pmulcahy11b]

T2013's E-teams reminded me of the Civil War's foragers.

They were called bummers.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think that cuisine in the T2K world is going to have a lot of things on the menu that people normally wouldn't eat - for that matter look at the Walking Dead episode that just aired tonight - who is up for a nice meal of fire roasted dog?

My dogs eat before I do.

[swaghauler]

My dogs eat before I do.

If you train them right, your dogs can help you eat better than you ever would without them. Ask any Racoone, bobcat, or deer (which is why it's now illegal to hunt deer in PA with dogs).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just came across this bit of info and thought it was appropriate for T2k.
Forget wasting your grenades to catch some fish, try fishing with car batteries!

You take the battery, hook up some jumper leads/cables and then throw the ends of the cables into the water. Make sure to remove the cables from the water before retrieving fish :p
Allegedly it will stun or electrocute the fish.
Who knows, maybe it really does work? But even if it doesn't work too well in the real world, it might make survival for the PCs a little easier in the game world.

[.45cultist]

Just came across this bit of info and thought it was appropriate for T2k.
Forget wasting your grenades to catch some fish, try fishing with car batteries!

You take the battery, hook up some jumper leads/cables and then throw the ends of the cables into the water. Make sure to remove the cables from the water before retrieving fish :p
Allegedly it will stun or electrocute the fish.
Who knows, maybe it really does work? But even if it doesn't work too well in the real world, it might make survival for the PCs a little easier in the game world.

That's how the fish and game get fish to test for illness and contaminants.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

That's interesting! I was treating it with all the caution normally given to anecdotal claims but it seems that it's actually viable.
For the record, I don't have any doubt that you can use electricity to stun/kill fish but I did doubt whether a car battery would have enough amperage to achieve it.

[Draq]

As for older rations from bygone wars, this is a good resource. : https://youtu.be/E7_f-jmmGdQ his channel is a gold mine.

[dragoon500ly]

There are a series of youtube videos entitled "18th Century Cooking", highly informative about rustic cooking as well as food preservation techniques. Well worth the time, and the recipes are great!

[Draq]

Ooh, thanx

[swaghauler]

Just because the nukes have flown and the world has "gone to pot" doesn't mean you can no longer enjoy your favorite fried foods or candle light dinners. All you need to do is "Render" some animal fat. Rendered fat will also be necessary for making Confit and other forms of preservation including the Wet Salt Infusion of certain meats. So here's how our ancestors have made Lard, Candle Wax, and other oils since the Stone Age.

Dry Rendering Fat:

1. You must first prepare the fat by cutting off ALL OTHER TISSUES including skin, muscle, or tendons from the fat. Thoroughly clean the fat to prevent bacteria from contaminating your future lard.

2. Cut Fat into small cubes or chunks to better distribute heat.

3. Place the fat in a pot over a heat source NOT hotter than 250F/121C (200F/93C will be more appropriate for some leaner fats). Let cook while stirring frequently until brown "cracklings" occur. This should take 1D3 hours in game time to occur.

4. Remove the material from heat when you have brown "cracklings" laying in clear rendered fat. Strain the "cracklings" (which are edible and can be used as ingredients in cooking, especially for sauces or gravy). Place the now rendered Lard in an appropriate container.

Wet Rendering Fat:

Follow all of the steps for Dry Rendering but add in 0.1L of clean Water per Kilogram of fat. Wet rendering is less likely to burn but takes longer (1D3+1 hours) and there will be NO "cracklings" as a byproduct.

Rendered fat will have a volume of 40% to 60% (1d3+3) of the precooked fat's weight (ie rendering 100 kilograms nets 40 to 60 Kilograms of lard). Add 1 to the volume roll for Wet Rendering.

Rendering Fat is a task of Routine(1.5 X Skill): Survival or Easy(2 X Skill): Cooking.

an animal will have 1/10th its yield in meat as fat in Kilograms (ie 50kg of animal meat will yield 5kg of fat to render. Gm's may wish to modify the amounts of Fat and totals of Rendered Fat for leaner animals (like deer) versus more Fat-laden animals (like pigs) in game.

As always, use what you will and ignore the rest.

Swag.

[Draq]

I knew I subscribed to the right threads

[LT. Ox]

DO NOT, I repeat do not eat too many at a sitting or yell be sitten in the out house for a day and a half.

I know 'cause my grandpa and uncle in north La rendered ( as they called it) when we cut hogs every year in October.
Oh man a 13 year old at the table where the cracklens were laid out to drain bit of salt and some biscutes from breakfast.
I got ta go now

[WallShadow]

Swag, years ago in our more adventurous lives, Mrs Carp and I set about making tallow candles. On the first attempt, we cut up the suet as small as possible. It was still an onerous task to get that stuff rendered.
Take Two: the second butcher we went to asked us what we wanted the beef fat for, thinking we were making bird feeders. When we told him and explained how difficult it was, he told us he would _grind_ it for us for free.
D'oh! The second round went much easier, though the cracklings were like tiny gravel.

Hand-driven meat grinders can be found at any decent flea market and occasionally at thrift stores. I have two or maybe three in my cupboard (along with 5 manual pasta machines --don't ask:o). They are also for sale at large sporting goods stores like Cabellas, Bass Pro Shoppes, Field and Stream Stores, etc, in the hunting/smoking/game processing gear sections.

[.45cultist]

Swag, years ago in our more adventurous lives, Mrs Carp and I set about making tallow candles. On the first attempt, we cut up the suet as small as possible. It was still an onerous task to get that stuff rendered.
Take Two: the second butcher we went to asked us what we wanted the beef fat for, thinking we were making bird feeders. When we told him and explained how difficult it was, he told us he would _grind_ it for us for free.
D'oh! The second round went much easier, though the cracklings were like tiny gravel.

Hand-driven meat grinders can be found at any decent flea market and occasionally at thrift stores. I have two or maybe three in my cupboard (along with 5 manual pasta machines --don't ask:o). They are also for sale at large sporting goods stores like Cabellas, Bass Pro Shoppes, Field and Stream Stores, etc, in the hunting/smoking/game processing gear sections.

Using a jack, one can motorize the hand grinder by tying it to a vehicle's wheel, like some third worlders do for power generation.

[Cdnwolf]

https://the1940sexperiment.com/100-wartime-recipes/

[swaghauler]

Swag, years ago in our more adventurous lives, Mrs Carp and I set about making tallow candles. On the first attempt, we cut up the suet as small as possible. It was still an onerous task to get that stuff rendered.
Take Two: the second butcher we went to asked us what we wanted the beef fat for, thinking we were making bird feeders. When we told him and explained how difficult it was, he told us he would _grind_ it for us for free.
D'oh! The second round went much easier, though the cracklings were like tiny gravel.

Hand-driven meat grinders can be found at any decent flea market and occasionally at thrift stores. I have two or maybe three in my cupboard (along with 5 manual pasta machines --don't ask:o). They are also for sale at large sporting goods stores like Cabellas, Bass Pro Shoppes, Field and Stream Stores, etc, in the hunting/smoking/game processing gear sections.

I too have found that rendering certain meats is very hard due to the "leaner" nature of that meat. Beef, muskrat, bison, and goat meat fall into that category. I would grind those meats too.

Pig, beaver, racoon or bear will have sufficient fat to render more easily (although I wouldn't render coon, muskrat or possum for food, only for candle tallow).

Seals or whales would be the easiest of all to render.

[WallShadow]

Eventually we got our tallow and moulded our candles. Some of the remaining tallow, however went into our soapmaking project. We made a few classic fails like pouring the molten soap into an aluminum baking pan to cool. (that was the end of that pan--the lye ate up the aluminum surface horrifically) And we had one batch that we just couldn't get to set up and harden, so we threw it out. Only to be told, when we described the lack of success to a fellow reenactor, that "soft soap" is highly prized and a valuable camp cleaning material. D'oh!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

For those of you who know, this link won't tell you anything new but for those of us who didn't know, or only had a "sorta idea" of rendering fat, this link is really useful (particularly when you read some of the comments as well)
http://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2012/02/how-to-render-beef-tallow.html

[Draq]

So I think we've covered the basics for food once the MREs run out, but what about before hand? Here lately I've been binge watching YouTube videos about MREs, specifically older ones, and its crazy to see what holds up and what doesn't. Ive seen Korean war b2 units be perfect, and 1989 MREs be totally ruined. And I'd imagine after things have gone quite far down hill, the last few shipments of supplies will have whatever rations are available, on the off chance there's still something edible. Just as the gear and weapons issued would also start coming from the bottom of the barrel (ei Vietnam era). So any rations you find would be a gamble, anywhere from being nauseous, having diarrhea, to straight up food poisoning and botulism. One more avenue for illness. I'm thinking about a table for rations, both pact and NATO, for likelihood of expiration and severity of spoilage, based on age and menu contents.

[swaghauler]

So I think we've covered the basics for food once the MREs run out, but what about before hand? Here lately I've been binge watching YouTube videos about MREs, specifically older ones, and its crazy to see what holds up and what doesn't. Ive seen Korean war b2 units be perfect, and 1989 MREs be totally ruined. And I'd imagine after things have gone quite far down hill, the last few shipments of supplies will have whatever rations are available, on the off chance there's still something edible. Just as the gear and weapons issued would also start coming from the bottom of the barrel (ei Vietnam era). So any rations you find would be a gamble, anywhere from being nauseous, having diarrhea, to straight up food poisoning and botulism. One more avenue for illness. I'm thinking about a table for rations, both pact and NATO, for likelihood of expiration and severity of spoilage, based on age and menu contents.

I agree. We need a Food Contamination Table. I'll put together a list of poisons and illnesses common to spoiled food like my Water Contamination Table.

[Draq]

I agree. We need a Food Contamination Table. I'll put together a list of poisons and illnesses common to spoiled food like my Water Contamination Table.

Excited!

[Draq]

Any progress?

[The Dark]

Or reading any of the other books about wild edibles be it the Military Survival Manual or any of the other books out there.

Mustard plants are almost entirely edible, the same goes for cat tails and dandelions.

Or just going off of one of the lines from the survival manual, "If it walks, flies, swims or crawls it can be eaten!"

A lot of it comes from mindset and cultural morays.

When do we discuss survival cannibalism?One of my hobbies is visiting Native American archeological sites, and quite a few of them have books on what was eaten, with some including recipes. As long as there's someone to identify the plants, that sort of book would be useful.

[swaghauler]

Any progress?

Sorry man, between work and my own campaign, I got distracted. I have some handwritten house rules I'll put up as soon as I get more time to type them. I've covered:
-Spoilage checks (1D20) based on time, temperature, and storage method (canning, sun drying, smoking, salting, etc...)
-Chemical/radiological contamination.
-And a chart listing the possible illnesses and side effects of spoiled foods.

It is similar to the one I posted for water purification.

[Draq]

Sorry man, between work and my own campaign, I got distracted. I have some handwritten house rules I'll put up as soon as I get more time to type them. I've covered:
-Spoilage checks (1D20) based on time, temperature, and storage method (canning, sun drying, smoking, salting, etc...)
-Chemical/radiological contamination.
-And a chart listing the possible illnesses and side effects of spoiled foods.

It is similar to the one I posted for water purification.
No rush at all, just didn't want to let a good idea fade.

[Pinhead Slim]

Hello, this thread finally pushed me to stop browsing and make an account!

Anyways we have come up with a lot of great uses for salt, but how were global supplies of salt in 1997? And I've heard there are some primitive ways people can extract salt, but would it be enough to preserve their own meats?
And would mass production of salt be possible? I've heard that for a decently long time in human history salt was almost as precious as gold. Would we go back to those times?

Thanks for any helpful information, this thread has been great.

[The Dark]

Hello, this thread finally pushed me to stop browsing and make an account!

Anyways we have come up with a lot of great uses for salt, but how were global supplies of salt in 1997? And I've heard there are some primitive ways people can extract salt, but would it be enough to preserve their own meats?
And would mass production of salt be possible? I've heard that for a decently long time in human history salt was almost as precious as gold. Would we go back to those times?

Thanks for any helpful information, this thread has been great.It takes around 1 bushel of salt (55 pounds) to preserve 500 pounds of pork, and 1.25 bushels to preserve 500 pounds of beef.

There's a very good map of salt deposits in the United States at the Salt Institute (http://www.saltinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/North-American-salt-map.jpg).

During the Civil War, one of the major Confederate sources of salt was Saltville, Virginia. In a complex of 300 buildings with 38 furnaces and 2,600 kettles to boil briny water, it produced 4 million bushels of salt in 1864. In Florida, Apalachee and St. Andrews Bay were major salt producers; when the Union raided the latter, they recorded destroying 198 saltworks in just 7 miles of beach.

[Targan]

My mother and stepfather established and are now on the board of directors of a commercial salt field.

[ArmySGT.]

Hello, this thread finally pushed me to stop browsing and make an account!

Anyways we have come up with a lot of great uses for salt, but how were global supplies of salt in 1997? And I've heard there are some primitive ways people can extract salt, but would it be enough to preserve their own meats?
And would mass production of salt be possible? I've heard that for a decently long time in human history salt was almost as precious as gold. Would we go back to those times?

Thanks for any helpful information, this thread has been great.

Kinda makes Israel with the Dead Sea valuable to their neighbors.. Ironically, I suppose. The Morton Salt complex is off of Interstate 80 west of Salt Lake City, Utah and can be seen in Google Earth. Might be a bit radioactive. Salt mines are still thriving world wide in the U.S., Peru, and some others.

Salt, Vinegar, and smoke along with canning jars and canning lids would have be a regular habit.

Lucky for the Portuguese that Bacaloa (salt cod) has been a staple for centuries.

[The Dark]

Kinda makes Israel with the Dead Sea valuable to their neighbors.. Ironically, I suppose.Not especially. The Dead Sea's salt is only about 30% sodium chloride, and it has a lot of bromide salts, which are toxic (in small doses, it's an anti-epileptic. In large doses, it causes hallucination, seizures, and coma).

The Morton Salt complex is off of Interstate 80 west of Salt Lake City, Utah and can be seen in Google Earth. Might be a bit radioactive. Salt mines are still thriving world wide in the U.S., Peru, and some others.

Salt, Vinegar, and smoke along with canning jars and canning lids would have be a regular habit.

Lucky for the Portuguese that Bacaloa (salt cod) has been a staple for centuries.Speaking of coastal nations and salt fish, seawater's a decent way to get salt. A gallon of seawater evaporating will provide around 4.5 ounces of salt, so around 196 gallons of water will provide a bushel of salt. That sounds like a lot, but if you can set up evaporative pools, it's not too hard to mass produce. If it needs to be done quicker, it can be actively boiled, but that's likely to be prohibitively fuel-intensive for a post-apoc group. Although I could see coastal groups placing a pot of seawater over the fire whenever they're warming themselves in the winter, to harvest the salt.

[WallShadow]

<SNIP>

Speaking of coastal nations and salt fish, seawater's a decent way to get salt. A gallon of seawater evaporating will provide around 4.5 ounces of salt, so around 196 gallons of water will provide a bushel of salt. That sounds like a lot, but if you can set up evaporative pools, it's not too hard to mass produce. If it needs to be done quicker, it can be actively boiled, but that's likely to be prohibitively fuel-intensive for a post-apoc group. Although I could see coastal groups placing a pot of seawater over the fire whenever they're warming themselves in the winter, to harvest the salt.

Setting up moveable plastic sheeting over the pools, weighted in the center to make a depression, with a collection bucket under the drip point would harvest pure, evaporated water as a byproduct of salt evaporation. It would probably also enhance the evaporative process, speeding it along.

[The Dark]

Setting up moveable plastic sheeting over the pools, weighted in the center to make a depression, with a collection bucket under the drip point would harvest pure, evaporated water as a byproduct of salt evaporation. It would probably also enhance the evaporative process, speeding it along.True, a solar still would make for a useful secondary product. It won't produce much, relatively speaking, but having distilled water available can be useful. It might also help if mirrors could be set up to reflect additional sunlight on the pools to increase temperature. Another option for desert areas near the sea is a seawater greenhouse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawater_greenhouse).

[swaghauler]

Hello, this thread finally pushed me to stop browsing and make an account!

Anyways we have come up with a lot of great uses for salt, but how were global supplies of salt in 1997? And I've heard there are some primitive ways people can extract salt, but would it be enough to preserve their own meats?
And would mass production of salt be possible? I've heard that for a decently long time in human history salt was almost as precious as gold. Would we go back to those times?

Thanks for any helpful information, this thread has been great.

Welcome aboard sir! You should surf the forum thread map and add your own thoughts to the threads there.

There is a very large salt mine that actually travels under lake Erie. In fact, I was just there a couple of days ago getting "replenishment salt" for a PA municipality that burned up it's supply salting the roads during our last storm.

[WallShadow]

Welcome aboard sir! You should surf the forum thread map and add your own thoughts to the threads there.

There is a very large salt mine that actually travels under lake Erie. In fact, I was just there a couple of days ago getting "replenishment salt" for a PA municipality that burned up it's supply salting the roads during our last storm.

The access to it is under Cleveland, right? Another probable storage facility, like the salt cave in Kansas (Missouri?) that was a strategic storage point for years.

[The Dark]

The access to it is under Cleveland, right? Another probable storage facility, like the salt cave in Kansas (Missouri?) that was a strategic storage point for years.Fairport Harbor, about 30 miles east of Cleveland. There was a nucleon decay detector located there 1982-1991 that was momentarily famous in 1987 for detecting 8 neutrinos from Supernova 1987A.

[ArmySGT.]

Not especially. The Dead Sea's salt is only about 30% sodium chloride, and it has a lot of bromide salts, which are toxic (in small doses, it's an anti-epileptic. In large doses, it causes hallucination, seizures, and coma). According to this website... those bromide salts are kind of valuable. http://www.perekopbromine.com/en/products/bromide-salt

Antiepileptics, as you stated, going mostly to veterinary medicine. Though in T2K there may be a shortage or no manufacturing of antiepileptics medications that replaced them.

Disinfectant. Admittedly for swimming pools, though in T2K with water sources being compromised this can go to cleaning water treatment plants, "shock" polluted wells, and clean ship board distilling plants. Also lowers chlorine levels if you have to go nuclear on water tank.

That and petroleum uses it..... sending thousands of pounds to Saudi Arabia to get those refineries operating for the RDF seems lucrative too.

And silver bromide is used in photography, but also Xray film too. If you want to get your hospital out of the civil war (1860s) tech level again.

Silver linings?

[Pinhead Slim]

Thanks for all the detailed info on salt production, I'm actually running a game that's heading near Salt Lake City so this is great! Another thing I was thinking about was spices, some would be pretty easy to find and grow like Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme. But I imagine some might require more resources than they're worth, or might even take too long to grow. I've heard black pepper takes forever to grow and it needs extremely good conditions to survive.

[WallShadow]

Fairport Harbor, about 30 miles east of Cleveland. There was a nucleon decay detector located there 1982-1991 that was momentarily famous in 1987 for detecting 8 neutrinos from Supernova 1987A.

That's an awful lot of carbon tetrachloride. Should be great for cleaning up soiled uniforms post-whoops.

[The Dark]

Thanks for all the detailed info on salt production, I'm actually running a game that's heading near Salt Lake City so this is great! Another thing I was thinking about was spices, some would be pretty easy to find and grow like Parsley, Sage, Rosemary, and Thyme. But I imagine some might require more resources than they're worth, or might even take too long to grow. I've heard black pepper takes forever to grow and it needs extremely good conditions to survive.
Black pepper needs tropical conditions. About 90% of the world's supply is grown in Vietnam, Indonesia, India, Brazil, and China. Mexico grows some (between 600 and 2000 tons, out of ~475,000 tons produced annually), but it will be scarce.

Chili peppers have a much broader growth area, with large quantities raised in the United States and even up to Canada.

There's a great page at the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization (http://www.fao.org/faostat/en/#data/QC/visualize) that can show where various crops are grown, with data going back to 1961.

There's at least one crop that I know of that isn't grown in the US, but could be - my mother has raised vanilla orchids, but getting beans is difficult enough that commercial production might not be viable (it requires hand pollination outside of Mexico due to the lack of Melipona bees). The only production in the Western hemisphere is Mexico (roughly 200 tons per year) and Guadeloupe (about 5 tons per year).

[Pinhead Slim]

Just saw this, I wonder if this kind of thing would come back after coffee got scarce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuZS61SezE

[WallShadow]

Just saw this, I wonder if this kind of thing would come back after coffee got scarce.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuZS61SezE

That and chicory. One of the Hornblower books described using burnt bread as a coffee substitute.

[CDAT]

That and chicory. One of the Hornblower books described using burnt bread as a coffee substitute.

As a non-coffee drinker, and most of the coffee drinker I know only drink it for the caffeine (as they say it tastes bad, unless you put enough milk and sugar) I wounder would this fill that fix?

[swaghauler]

Any progress?

Ok Draq,

Check out my posting to the food storage thread in the forum thread map.

[WallShadow]

While not actually a food, growing nightshade and/or belladonna might be useful if nerve agents were prevalent in the theatre. The aconite derived from them could be used as a cholinesterase booster to counter the effects.

[WallShadow]

Just came across this bit of info and thought it was appropriate for T2k.
Forget wasting your grenades to catch some fish, try fishing with car batteries!

You take the battery, hook up some jumper leads/cables and then throw the ends of the cables into the water. Make sure to remove the cables from the water before retrieving fish :p
Allegedly it will stun or electrocute the fish.
Who knows, maybe it really does work?

<SNIP>

I don't know about fish but sticking an electrified rod into the ground _will_ make the earthworms come sliding out--my brother used to do this to get worms for fishing.

[Draq]

Has anyone made a table for randomly foraged food in the European theatre? What kind of edible food grows in the wilderness?