Milgov&civgov

[rcaf_777]

Just wondering if anyone has ideas on how thses governments would look and function

Who in them? I know for the MILGOV is made up off the Joint Cheifs but who elese?

Since the nuclear attack happens on the US Thanksgiving Weekend, odds are a good number of senior government officals would surrive.

Also the US government could order key departments to have designated survivors and alternate HQ sucj as the FBI, CIA, or FEMA

[kato13]

I missed the point of your question in my original post.

As written Milgov would have a serious leg up on control of govt funcitons as CIVGOV was not formed for months.

Generally I think CIVGOV would only be able to pick up parts of even the functions that you might expect CIA/FBI/FEMA justice etc. Mostly local opportunistic leaders in areas where CIVGOV somehow has access to more local assets.


Edit Below is original post.

Because deputy secretaries and military branch chiefs (and even their deputies) have been approved by the senate and therefore can be considered in the line of succession, there is NO WAY the total lack of a president as presented could happen.

Even with the nukes and Spetnaz units going after parts of the tree, nearly 120 people would need to die.

Cheney spent weeks in a bunker after 9/11 and we are to believe 120 people could be targeted 4 months after nuclear use in Asia and Europe.

If I were writing the conflict now I would have ambiguity as to who should have been promoted. As I mentioned in another thread you could have SECDEF promoted to president with the DIA having full knowledge that SECSTATE is still alive but out of contact. As SECSTATE out ranks SECDEF they should be president, but honestly I can't see once someone is sworn in there being too big of a schism.

[dragoon500ly]

The US line of succession as per the Constitution and the Presidential Succession Act of 1947, the PSA was amended as new cabinet posts were created. However, those heads of departments who are ineligible to run for President are also ineligible to succeed the President. The most common reason being that they are not a natural-born U.S. citizen.

The main line is:

President
Vice President
Speaker of the House of Representatives
President pro tempore of the Senate
The heads of federal executive departments forming the Cabinet

Since 1947, many constitutional law experts have raised questions as the constitutionality of the provisions that the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of Senate succeed to the presidency. In 2003 the Continuity of Government Commission raised a number of other issues to the current line of succession.

The first PSA was passed in 1792 and states that the Vice President was the successor to the President. There were concerns at the time about the separation of powers, including if the Chief Justice of the U.S. was included in the succession. The compromise worked out include the Speaker of the House and the President pro tempore of the Senate. It also included the line "that these officers were to act as the President and Vice President until the disability be removed or a president elected."

The PSAs have two issues;
1) the term "Officer" is most plausibly interpreted to mean an "Officer of the United States", who must be a member of either the Executive or Judicial Branch. The Speaker and the President pro tempore are not officially officers in this sense.

2) The separation of powers in the Constitution specifically disallows legislative officials from also.ser ing in the Executive Branch. For either the Speaker or the President pro tempore to become President, them must resign their position, at which point, they are no longer in the line of succession! While this forms a paradox, the latest amendment to.the PSA specifies that the Speaker becomes President "upon his resignation as Speaker and as a member of Congress."

The current order as of 2017 is as follows:

President
Vice President
Speaker of the House of Representatives
President pro tempore of the Senate
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs
Secretary of Homeland Security

The Cabinet officers are listed according to the chronological order of their department.

The language of the PSA allows the President to appoint "officers by and with the advice and consent of Senate."

Section 3 of the 20th Amendment provides that if the President-elect dies before his term begins, then the vice president-elect becomes President on Inauguration Day and serves the full four year term. If both the President -elect and the vice president-elect die before taking the oath of office, Congress can pro use by law for the election of a new president-elect and vice-president-elect.

Article.2, Section 1 of the 25th Amendment, states that the Vice President is the designated successor if the President resigns, dies, or is removed from office or if the President is temporarily unable to perform his duties.due to medical condition or mentally unstable. It also requires the new President to fill of office of the Vice President (previously it was the practice to leave the VP position open until the next election).

The PSA does not allow for the situation that shows in T2K, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are not in the line of succession, as their function is to act as advisors to the President. For General Tanner to be able to assume the office of the President, he would have to be appointed, with the advice and consent of the Senate to either a cabinet post (Secretary of Defence for example), or as Vice President. If he is not appointed, then he is simply not able to assume the office of President.

Which makes MilGov the illegal government and CivGov the legitimate one......

[rcaf_777]

Ok great background info, but what I am for is what each government might have EI who would MILGOV have as

President
Vice President
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs

[kato13]

MILGOV never establishes a new president from what I recall. They continue to operate under martial law.

I suppose for structure you might want to look at how the US government handled the recovery in Europe after WWII as to what they might do for the equivalent of cabinet posts.

[Draq]

As far as who had what posts, I don't think that's anywhere in the books. And as far as milgov, it would be a Marshal law military council. Civgov would have a hodgepodge of pre-tdm office holders and newly appointed officials... And a hodgepodge of offices and positions given the massive chaos and change necessitating a restructuring.

[kato13]

I just realized that martial, Marshall, and marshal (law enforcement) could in some cases be used interchangeably without too much variance in the meaning of a sentence. Pretty odd given martial and marshal come from two different latin words (for war and horse I believe).

No more odd than religious and sacrilegious also not being related I guess.

English is weird.

[.45cultist]

Ok great background info, but what I am for is what each government might have EI who would MILGOV have as

President
Vice President
Secretary of State
Secretary of the Treasury
Secretary of Defense
Attorney General of the United States
Secretary of the Interior
Secretary of Commerce
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of Health & Human Services
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development
Secretary of Transportation
Secretary of Energy
Secretary of Education
Secretary of Veteran Affairs

General Cummings was head and would appoint personnel, most likely senior people whose job could overlap the civilian sector.

[pmulcahy11b]

I know it's heresy compared to most players, but I think that CIVGOV has a more legitimate claim to being the legal US government, having most of the remaining civilian US government in its ranks and not unsizable military forces (though little heavy equipment).

MILGOV, on the other hand, controls a lot of the commo networks and heavy equipment, oil in the Gulf, and large armed forces. They have become the de facto government to many, and probably have their own version of COG (even more illegitimate than CIVGOV's COG).

MILGOV is, essentially trying to replace the legitimate US Government with a military junta. And for a long time after the Twilight War, they will succeed, but the people, as the country recovers and becomes more organized, will want a return to democracy. And this is where CIVGOV steps in.

[Draq]

I just realized that martial, Marshall, and marshal (law enforcement) could in some cases be used interchangeably without too much variance in the meaning of a sentence. Pretty odd given martial and marshal come from two different latin words (for war and horse I believe).

No more odd than religious and sacrilegious also not being related I guess.

English is weird.

... Wow... You're right...

[Draq]

I know it's heresy compared to most players, but I think that CIVGOV has a more legitimate claim to being the legal US government, having most of the remaining civilian US government in its ranks and not unsizable military forces (though little heavy equipment).

MILGOV, on the other hand, controls a lot of the commo networks and heavy equipment, oil in the Gulf, and large armed forces. They have become the de facto government to many, and probably have their own version of COG (even more illegitimate than CIVGOV's COG).

MILGOV is, essentially trying to replace the legitimate US Government with a military junta. And for a long time after the Twilight War, they will succeed, but the people, as the country recovers and becomes more organized, will want a return to democracy. And this is where CIVGOV steps in.

Exactly. Given the condition of the war, both at home and abroad, the military being in control is really what's needed.

[pmulcahy11b]

English is weird.

Just ask my mother. She learned four languages and parts of two more, and English still gives her problems sometimes. And she's been in this country since 1962.

[.45cultist]

I know it's heresy compared to most players, but I think that CIVGOV has a more legitimate claim to being the legal US government, having most of the remaining civilian US government in its ranks and not unsizable military forces (though little heavy equipment).

MILGOV, on the other hand, controls a lot of the commo networks and heavy equipment, oil in the Gulf, and large armed forces. They have become the de facto government to many, and probably have their own version of COG (even more illegitimate than CIVGOV's COG).

MILGOV is, essentially trying to replace the legitimate US Government with a military junta. And for a long time after the Twilight War, they will succeed, but the people, as the country recovers and becomes more organized, will want a return to democracy. And this is where CIVGOV steps in.

They tried to muddy the waters both had good and bad points. I think they wanted each group to choose in their game worlds and show more chaos and change.

[dragoon500ly]

In a previous post I detailed the Presidential Succession Act which lays out who is within the legitimate succession. The BYB specifics that the split between MilGov and CivGov occurred following the Thanksgiving Day Massacre and further specifies that MilGov claims to be the legitimate United States Government by virtual of a Presidential Decree of Martial Law.
But what is Martial Law and how does it apply to the United States? usconstitution.net defines martial law as:

“In strict dictionary terms, martial law is the suspension of civil authority and the imposition of military authority. When we say a region or country is "under martial law," we mean to say that the military is in control of the area, that it acts as the police, as the courts, as the legislature. The degree of control might vary - a nation may have a civilian legislature but have the courts administered by the military. Or the legislature and courts may operate under civilian control with a military ruler. In each case, martial law is in effect, even if it is not called "martial law."

“Martial law should not be confused with military justice. In the United States, for example, each branch of the military has its own judicial structures in place. Members of the service are under the control of military law, and in some cases civilians working for or with the military may be subject to military law. But this is the normal course of business in the military. Martial law is the exception to the rule. In the United States, the military courts were created by the Congress, and cases can be appealed out of the military system to the Supreme Court in many cases. In addition, a civilian court can petition the military for habeas corpus.”

“Article 1, Section 9 of the U.S. Constitution states, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Habeas corpus is a concept of law, in which a person may not be held by the government without a valid reason for being held. A writ of habeas corpus can be issued by a court upon a government agency (such as a police force or the military). Such a writ compels the agency to produce the individual to the court, and to convince the court that the person is being reasonably held. The suspension of habeas corpus allows an agency to hold a person without a charge. Suspension of habeas corpus is often equated with martial law.”

“Because of this connection of the two concepts, it is often argued that only Congress can declare martial law, because Congress alone is granted the power to suspend the writ. The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it; Congress may agree to the declaration, putting the official stamp of approval on the declaration; or it can reject the President's imposition of martial law, which could set up a power struggle between the Congress and the Executive that only the Judiciary would be able to resolve.”

“In the United States, there is precedent for martial law. Several times in the course of our history, martial law of varying degrees has been declared. The most obvious and often-cited example was when President Lincoln declared martial law during the Civil War. This instance provides us with most of the rules for martial law that we would use today, should the need arise.”

[dragoon500ly]

“On September 15, 1863, Lincoln imposed Congressionally-authorized martial law. The authorizing act allowed the President to suspend habeas corpus throughout the entire United States. Lincoln imposed the suspension on "prisoners of war, spies, or aiders and abettors of the enemy," as well as on other classes of people, such as draft dodgers. The President's proclamation was challenged in ex parte Milligan (71 US 2 [1866]). The Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln's imposition of martial law (by way of suspension of habeas corpus) was unconstitutional.”

“In arguments before the Court, the counsel for the United States spoke to the question of "what is martial law?" "Martial law," it was argued, "is the will of the commanding officer of an armed force, or of a geographical military department, expressed in time of war within the limits of his military jurisdiction, as necessity demands and prudence dictates, restrained or enlarged by the orders of his military chief, or supreme executive ruler." In other words, martial law is imposed by a local commander on the region he controls, on an as-needed basis. Further, it was argued, "The officer executing martial law is at the same time supreme legislator, supreme judge, and supreme executive. As necessity makes his will the law, he only can define and declare it; and whether or not it is infringed, and of the extent of the infraction, he alone can judge; and his sole order punishes or acquits the alleged offender."

“In this case, Lambden Milligan, for whom the case is named, was arrested in Indiana as a Confederate sympathizer. Indiana, like the rest of the United States, was part of a military district set up to help conduct the war. Milligan was tried by military commission and sentenced to die by hanging. After his conviction, Milligan petitioned the Circuit Court for habeas corpus, arguing that his arrest, trial, and conviction were all unconstitutional. What the Supreme Court had to decide, it said, was "Had [the military commission] the legal power and authority to try and punish [Milligan]?"

“Resoundingly, the Court said no. The Court stated what is almost painfully obvious: "Martial law ... destroys every guarantee of the Constitution." The Court reminded the reader that such actions were taken by the King of Great Britain, which caused, in part, the Revolution. "Civil liberty and this kind of martial law cannot endure together; the antagonism is irreconcilable; and, in the conflict, one or the other must perish."

“Did this mean that martial law could never be implemented? No, the Court said. The President can declare martial law when circumstances warrant it: When the civil authority cannot operate, then martial law is not only constitutional, but would be necessary: "If, in foreign invasion or civil war, the courts are actually closed, and it is impossible to administer criminal justice according to law, then, on the theatre of active military operations, where war really prevails, there is a necessity to furnish a substitute for the civil authority, thus overthrown, to preserve the safety of the army and society; and as no power is left but the military, it is allowed to govern by martial rule until the laws can have their free course. As necessity creates the rule, so it limits its duration; for, if this government is continued after the courts are reinstated, it is a gross usurpation of power. Martial rule can never exist where the courts are open, and in the proper and unobstructed exercise of their jurisdiction. It is also confined to the locality of actual war."

[dragoon500ly]

Hopefully you are as confused by all this as I was when I first started researching this...I even broke down and asked a few lawyers that I play the occasional round of golf with.

After buying these <ahem> gentlemen lunch and way too many drinks...

There are two basic questions that have to be answered:

1. Does the President have the authority to declare Martial Law?

The answer is yes. With the havoc caused by the Thanksgiving Day Massacre, the President did have grounds to call upon Congress to confirm a state of martial law.

Did this happen? Both the v.1 and the BYB fail to mention this confirmation. But the approval of the Senate is critical for such a declaration to be legal. Only Congress can declare a suspension of habeas corpus.

2. Did the President have the authority to name a military officer as a successor to the Office of the President?

The answer is no. The Presidential Succession Act is very clear upon the necessary chain to determine if someone can be named, and active military officers do not fall within the PCA. For General Cummings to be named as President, he would have to resign his commission, be appointed as Secretary of Defense or even be named Vice President before he could fulfill the provisions of the PCA.

For General Cummings to remain an active duty officer AND take the office of the President, the PCA would deny him the legal authority necessary.

In real life, MilGov would be the illegal government, at least as described in the canon material.

[The Dark]

Continuity of Government is a major theme of the book Jason recommended (http://juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5490) a while back, Raven Rock. There were plenty of technically illegal orders placing various contingency plans in place putting (effectively) a military junta in a secret chain of succession. The problem that was eventually realized was that if the order is secret, how can anyone outside the group of people read in on it know whether it's a legitimate order or a coup d'etat?

[kato13]

Has Cummings ever called himself President? I just looked over Gateway to the Spanish Main and he is always called something like

"current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and defacto Commander of the
Military Government of the United States"

Edit.

Also is Congress required? The text from part one states
" The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it;"

That being said a Senate quorum should have been been able to have been assembled. Even if you place a high TDM casuality rate of 65% for senators and Governors (Really High IMO), you should still be able to get 51 senators given governors can appoint any replacements. (Estimated 35 Senators + 22 Replacements on average)

Again canon says nothing about this, but this is not a surprise war. I cannot imagine those types of death rates given the strikes stated and Nukes were flying for 5 months prior. IMO someone would have pre approved martial law or made arrangements for a quorum to be available for many strike scenarios.

[dragoon500ly]

Has Cummings ever called himself President? I just looked over Gateway to the Spanish Main and he is always called something like

"current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and defacto Commander of the
Military Government of the United States"

Edit.

Also is Congress required? The text from part one states
" The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it;"

That being said a Senate quorum should have been been able to have been assembled. Even if you place a high TDM casuality rate of 65% for senators and Governors (Really High IMO), you should still be able to get 51 senators given governors can appoint any replacements. (Estimated 35 Senators + 22 Replacements on average)

Again canon says nothing about this, but this is not a surprise war. I cannot imagine those types of death rates given the strikes stated and Nukes were flying for 5 months prior. IMO someone would have pre approved martial law or made arrangements for a quorum to be available for many strike scenarios.

The presidential/martial law debate runs into these stumbling blocks. Yes the President can declare an executive order that states that the Joint Chiefs of Staff assume control. Would it be legal? Nope. Serving military officers are not part of the line of succession because they are military officers. For them to serve in Cabinet posts they must either resign their commission or be retired.

Cummings and the JCS don't have legal authority to "govern" the country, even if they are obeying an executive order. Martial law requires that Congress either approves the decree by voting to have habeas corpus suspended, or give silent approval by not voting at all. And to make it all moot, is the argument that as long as civil law is still running, then martial law cannot be declared.

The issue then becomes what was the Federal Government doing after the first nuclear strikes?

At the very least the President, Vice President and the congressional leaders would have been widely separated. One could easily see one set of leaders in Washington DC keeping up public appearances that all was well, a second set of leaders operating out of one of the COG bases such as Raven Rock, another set, perhaps at Cheyenne Mountain or similar facility.

With the pre war planning and with the fact of nuclear weapons being used tactically, and the excellent chance of them being used in a strategic role. Would the Federal Government ever have broken down so far that a need for an EO ordering the Joint Chiefs to assume military control of the country?

Interesting question....

[kato13]

I think overall we are in agreement. You are saying that Martial Law as written in canon could not really happen. I agree but also don't see how the line of succession could be completely destroyed (also canon).

If 3 secretaries survive (canon) and one is promoted to president. The remaining department's second or even third in command can be immediately promoted to acting secretary (as they have already been approved by the Senate) and be put back into the succession order. This was confirmed around 9/11 that deputies promoted to acting (but not yet approved for full secretary ship) are in the Line.

Every secretary serves at the whim of the president so even if someone cannot be found as is not dead, they can be removed and their deputy made acting secretary. Keeping the line full.

After the nukes start flying in China and Europe the Senate could quietly file paperwork approving all deputies for full promotion removing even that slight ambiguity. And my mention of a Quorum surviving allows full approval even if that paperwork is not done.

The big questions come in Jan of 1999 when all representatives and 1/3 of senators would no longer be legally office and in Jan of 2001 when the acting president's and another 1/3 of senators terms would be over. The numbers of senators might be higher than a 1/3 for 98 as I think governor appointments cannot server more than 2 years or until the next scheduled election.


edit forgot elections are in even years and replacement is odd.

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 99 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Edit forget elections are in even years and replacement in Jan of odd years.

[Olefin]

Oh I agree that the canon is completely wrong about this - and that is something that (to use a very different source) was shown as part of Battlestar Galactica - no matter how far they would have to go down the chain of command to do it someone would have stepped up to be President

There is precisely ZERO chance that there would be no Presidential Successor - not with the nuclear attack in the game - maybe just maybe if you are looking at a all out attack on the country by the Soviets, Chinese, etc.. where there literally is most of the population destroyed to where no one is still alive in the Executive or Legislative Branch who is in the line of succession - but that kind of attack would be lucky to leave a 100,000 or so survivors

[Olefin]

I think overall we are in agreement. You are saying that Martial Law as written in canon could not really happen. I agree but also don't see how the line of succession could be completely destroyed (also canon).

If 3 secretaries survive (canon) and one is promoted to president. The remaining department's second or even third in command can be immediately promoted to acting secretary (as they have already been approved by the Senate) and be put back into the succession order. This was confirmed around 9/11 that deputies promoted to acting (but not yet approved for full secretary ship) are in the Line.

Every secretary serves at the whim of the president so even if someone cannot be found as is not dead, they can be removed and their deputy made acting secretary. Keeping the line full.

After the nukes start flying in China and Europe the Senate could quietly file paperwork approving all deputies for full promotion removing even that slight ambiguity. And my mention of a Quorum surviving allows full approval even if that paperwork is not done.

The big questions come in Jan of 1998 when all representatives and 1/3 of senators would no longer be legally office and in Jan of 2000 when the acting president's and another 1/3 of senators terms would be over. The numbers of senators might be higher than a 1/3 for 98 as I think governor appointments cannot server more than 2 years or until the next scheduled election.

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 98 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Frankly they came up with as a way to somehow explain the US being so week that they could have the country split apart long enough to have Texas and the Southwest taken over the Mexicans. The reality is - they could have just had it be NA versus what is left of the unified US govt (who is also trying to take back Alaska, Texas, etc..) and there would have been more than enough of the European flavor for US campaigns

[kato13]

Frankly they came up with as a way to somehow explain the US being so week that they could have the country split apart long enough to have Texas and the Southwest taken over the Mexicans. The reality is - they could have just had it be NA versus what is left of the unified US govt (who is also trying to take back Alaska, Texas, etc..) and there would have been more than enough of the European flavor for US campaigns

The US could be really weak. There are ways to get there.
Higher civilian deaths.

Spetnaz and perhaps Mexican nationals performing effective sabotage and assassinations.

Bioweapons on crops.

Regional Schisms

States seceding

National Guard troops refusing to leave their home states after nuclear strikes and other mutinies.

Natural Disasters


I just have a problem with it being portrayed as worse than Poland which had armies go over every inch two or three times, chemical weapons, strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, carpet bombings, rail-lines destroyed, minefields, not a single prewar bridge or powerplant standing, etc.

[dragoon500ly]

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 99 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Edit forget elections are in even years and replacement in Jan of odd years.

Situation gets even worse! According to the PSA, you not only have the Big 4; pres, vice pres; pres pro tempore and speaker of the House, you also have each cabinet sec, their assistant and their deputies, taking the succession up to 46, just a Federal level! PSA also includes the state governors, vice govs, and the heads of both houses of the state leg, which adds another 199 (Nebraska has a single house leg), so that's 245 people in the legitimate line of succession, which blows canon right out of the water!

[dragoon500ly]

The US could be really weak. There are ways to get there.
Higher civilian deaths.

Spetnaz and perhaps Mexican nationals performing effective sabotage and assassinations.

Bioweapons on crops.

Regional Schisms

States seceding

National Guard troops refusing to leave their home states after nuclear strikes and other mutinies.

Natural Disasters


I just have a problem with it being portrayed as worse than Poland which had armies go over every inch two or three times, chemical weapons, strategic and tactical nuclear weapons, carpet bombings, rail-lines destroyed, minefields, not a single prewar bridge or powerplant standing, etc.

There was always a considerable threat from KGB/GRU sabotage attacks, it's one of the reasons that the Feds provided funds for the State Guard units as well as providing military weapons and training to local police agencies.

With multiple refinery strikes crippling the petroleum industry, strikes at critical transportation hubs will fairly well destroy the industrial and agricultural industries as well.

Toss in strikes at nuclear/gas/coal and hydro power plants and a lot of people are going to be dead, dying or wishing they were dead.

This could be the most likely scenario for an executive order declaring martial law, one that could easily get a congressional approval.

But it still shuts down the MilGov/CivGov split. There would still be a President and a Congress (of sorts), to be sure, there might be a regional "President", but as the legal government slowly rebuilt power, industry, transportation, etc, then they could apply military force to bring the warlord under control.

As gas as states splitting from the union, it can easily happen, depending on the damage and fallout patterns, but eventually, they too can be reclaimed.

LOL! Talk about a T2K/Morrow Project link!!!

[The Dark]

Situation gets even worse! According to the PSA, you not only have the Big 4; pres, vice pres; pres pro tempore and speaker of the House, you also have each cabinet sec, their assistant and their deputies, taking the succession up to 46, just a Federal level! PSA also includes the state governors, vice govs, and the heads of both houses of the state leg, which adds another 199 (Nebraska has a single house leg), so that's 245 people in the legitimate line of succession, which blows canon right out of the water!

But having President pro tempore and Speaker of the House in the succession is unconstitutional, since the Incompatibility Clause (Article I, Section 6, Clause 2) states that no Senator or Representative may be appointed to another office during their term. The way the succession acts try to get around that is to state that taking the oath of office shall be held to be a resignation of the prior office, but I could easily see someone with a black-and-white view of things taking the stance that they can't be appointed in the first place, and refusing to go along with the appointment of either of the legislative successors.

There's also the controversy of "bumping." The PSA allows for a "higher-ranking" position to take over from a "lower-ranking" one. For example, the Secretary of Labor becomes President. New congressional elections are held, and the new Speaker of the House bumps the President and becomes the new President, because s/he's higher in succession than the Secretary of Labor. This violates Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 of the Constitution, which states that an Officer shall hold their position until disabled or a new President is elected.

Both of these problems step into the morass of separation of powers; they create situations where the legislative controls the executive or is able to wield undue influence on the executive, and could be seen as justification for discarding the entire law.

State legislators are not eligible in the PSA and never have been; they are ignored by 3 US Code 19. The order is Speaker, President pro tempore, and cabinet secretaries in order of their department seniority (State first, either Veterans Affairs or Homeland Security last depending on whether it's classic T2K or current timeline T2K17). It's a matter of debate whether deputies or "acting" secretaries are eligible, since they were not confirmed as Secretary by Congress. They definitely were NOT eligible until 2006, when the language changed (the 1886 Act stated Officers had to be approved by the Senate to hold the office that formed the basis of their claim to the Presidency, while the 2006 Act shuffled words around so that Officers have to have been approved by the Senate to hold an office). Acting secretaries have claimed to have been added to the succession, but it's never been announced and its legality has never been examined by a court.

[dragoon500ly]

But having President pro tempore and Speaker of the House in the succession is unconstitutional, since the Incompatibility Clause (Article I, Section 6, Clause 2) states that no Senator or Representative may be appointed to another office during their term. The way the succession acts try to get around that is to state that taking the oath of office shall be held to be a resignation of the prior office, but I could easily see someone with a black-and-white view of things taking the stance that they can't be appointed in the first place, and refusing to go along with the appointment of either of the legislative successors.

There's also the controversy of "bumping." The PSA allows for a "higher-ranking" position to take over from a "lower-ranking" one. For example, the Secretary of Labor becomes President. New congressional elections are held, and the new Speaker of the House bumps the President and becomes the new President, because s/he's higher in succession than the Secretary of Labor. This violates Article II, Section 1, Clause 6 of the Constitution, which states that an Officer shall hold their position until disabled or a new President is elected.

Both of these problems step into the morass of separation of powers; they create situations where the legislative controls the executive or is able to wield undue influence on the executive, and could be seen as justification for discarding the entire law.

State legislators are not eligible in the PSA and never have been; they are ignored by 3 US Code 19. The order is Speaker, President pro tempore, and cabinet secretaries in order of their department seniority (State first, either Veterans Affairs or Homeland Security last depending on whether it's classic T2K or current timeline T2K17). It's a matter of debate whether deputies or "acting" secretaries are eligible, since they were not confirmed as Secretary by Congress. They definitely were NOT eligible until 2006, when the language changed (the 1886 Act stated Officers had to be approved by the Senate to hold the office that formed the basis of their claim to the Presidency, while the 2006 Act shuffled words around so that Officers have to have been approved by the Senate to hold an office). Acting secretaries have claimed to have been added to the succession, but it's never been announced and its legality has never been examined by a court.

All valid points and to throw yet more garbage in the pot, you have the mass of Continuity of Government plans which includes state legislatures in the Presidental Succession (or at least the majority members).

What this boils down to is this, the President has the authority to appoint an assistant or deputy Secretary into the vacant Secretary slot, it does require Senate approval, but it is noted that a quorum is needed, while not explicitly mentioned, COG has plans for a committee, to approve these emergency appointments.

There has always been a lot of debate about inserting the Speaker of the House and President pro Tempore of the Senate into the succession, they are not members of the Executive Branch, but the PCA is fairly clear that they must resign their Legislative positions, in theory removing them from succession, in order to be sworn in as President. But COG allows for this as part of the swearing in and SCOTUS has never ruled that this is unconstitutional.

As for the appearance of the state legislatures, this is more along the lines that if the governor and the deputy governor die, then they assume the positions and once sworn in, if necessary, they enter the Presidental Succession.

The premise is that the Constitution, the PSA and COG ensure that there is a chain of succession, it is convoluted, and I have yet to find a single publicly available document that states A-B-C etc, what you have is a hodgepodge of documents, laws, regulations and plans all seemingly at cross purposes.

Confused yet?

[Toxoplasmaman]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

[James Langham]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.

Wow... sorta sucks since a lot of us are former military. I supported Milgov when I played.

You have to appreciate the excellent canon work done back then. No web, deadlines, etc.

Course some of the canon is interesting from string theories and such.

One of the clever bits of TW2000 is the amount of grey in the game, little is black and white.

[shrike6]

The Milgov/Civgov split is canon. After reading these posts, I realize that Milgov did a Coup d'état. It happens folks. Even to us.


A coup suggests a violent overthrow of the previous government. I don't remember reading that in canon. What they were, was the last intact functioning piece of the pre-war government. You can question the legitimacy of Milgov's rule. Just like you can with Civgov's legitimacy, the election/seating of Reps and Senators comes to mind.

[rcaf_777]

I would call is coup per say. It comes down to who steps in to get things done the nukes fly and who on the ground giving orders?

Also who has controls over things like guns, food etc? In times like this soldiers and fall back on their training and leadership. Many civilians will go with the flow as long as the basic needs are met, food shelter and security.

Government Officials might find it hard to give orders from a bunker.

[unkated]

I just realized that martial, Marshall, and marshal (law enforcement) could in some cases be used interchangeably without too much variance in the meaning of a sentence. Pretty odd given martial and marshal come from two different latin words (for war and horse I believe).

No more odd than religious and sacrilegious also not being related I guess.

English is weird.

Yes, English is weird, but it works better when used properly.

Martial law is when civil authority (which in the US usually has the duty of law enforcement and keeping the peace) is replaced by peace-keeping and control by the military; due process is suspended, and soldiers, following a military chain of command are used to keep peace pursuant to orders by their (military) commanders.

A Marshal was originally a high official in the household of a medieval king, prince, or noble, originally having charge of the cavalry but later usually in command of the military forces (hence "Field Marshal"; and related a municipal Fire Marshal, who commands/orders/prepare a Fire Department).

There is also a more current (US) meaning is an officer appointed for a judicial district (as of the U.S.) to execute the process of the courts and perform various duties similar to those of a sheriff (2) : a city law officer entrusted with particular duties.

There is no "Marshal Law" except in a western, where a town may appoint a town marshal rather than a Sheriff, who was generally elected.

As an amusing side-note, the Marshallsea Prison of London (Medieval to 18th Century) would today be spelt Marshalcy, as it was (originally) the place where the Marshal of England could hold the prisoners that the King told him to hold on to. But the spelling of English was rather fluid until the late 18th/ early 19th Century.

[unkated]

I know it's heresy compared to most players, but I think that CIVGOV has a more legitimate claim to being the legal US government, having most of the remaining civilian US government in its ranks and not unsizable military forces (though little heavy equipment).

MILGOV, on the other hand, controls a lot of the commo networks and heavy equipment, oil in the Gulf, and large armed forces. They have become the de facto government to many, and probably have their own version of COG (even more illegitimate than CIVGOV's COG).

MILGOV is, essentially trying to replace the legitimate US Government with a military junta. And for a long time after the Twilight War, they will succeed, but the people, as the country recovers and becomes more organized, will want a return to democracy. And this is where CIVGOV steps in.

I would agree, and I believe that MilGov would have handed control to a legitimate president, except (IIRC) that as described, the process CIVGOV uses to declare a new President has some major problems with legitimacy itself - that the representation by members of the rump Congress was questionable, and so their appointment of leadership was questionable. Meanwhile, MilGov had an active war to prosecute.

Finally, the Electoral College gets a chance to fulfill its actual purpose, and no one calls them! :)

The part that gets messy is when individuals have to choose between obeying a military junta or an illegitimately appointed civilian leadership, like...


the head of the MidWest office of the FBI gets phone calls from both a General and a new Attorney General and has to decide who to listen to, or

a Base Commander gets orders from his superior to institute martial law to take control of a neighboring city without an order or permission from a civil authority to do so (breaking posse comitatus, the law that says that the US military cannot be used within the US for law enforcement unless ordered to do so by civil authority), or

a Colonel orders a power company to limit electricity distribution to a city population so it can be concentrated on military production factories.


Of course, this is all besides the question of who is making personal plays for power on the grand national scale.

Uncle Ted

[CDAT]

I would agree, and I believe that MilGov would have handed control to a legitimate president, except (IIRC) that as described, the process CIVGOV uses to declare a new President has some major problems with legitimacy itself - that the representation by members of the rump Congress was questionable, and so their appointment of leadership was questionable. Meanwhile, MilGov had an active war to prosecute.

Finally, the Electoral College gets a chance to fulfill its actual purpose, and no one calls them! :)

The part that gets messy is when individuals have to choose between obeying a military junta or an illegitimately appointed civilian leadership, like...


the head of the MidWest office of the FBI gets phone calls from both a General and a new Attorney General and has to decide who to listen to, or

a Base Commander gets orders from his superior to institute martial law to take control of a neighboring city without an order or permission from a civil authority to do so (breaking posse comitatus, the law that says that the US military cannot be used within the US for law enforcement unless ordered to do so by civil authority), or

a Colonel orders a power company to limit electricity distribution to a city population so it can be concentrated on military production factories.


Of course, this is all besides the question of who is making personal plays for power on the grand national scale.

Uncle Ted

Just a minor point, posse comitatus only applies to the US Army (and USAF as when the law was passed they were part of the Army), but not the US Navy, guard or reserves (unless Army guard/ reserves are called to federal duty).

[Toxoplasmaman]

I would agree, and I believe that MilGov would have handed control to a legitimate president, except (IIRC) that as described, the process CIVGOV uses to declare a new President has some major problems with legitimacy itself - that the representation by members of the rump Congress was questionable, and so their appointment of leadership was questionable. Meanwhile, MilGov had an active war to prosecute.

Finally, the Electoral College gets a chance to fulfill its actual purpose, and no one calls them! :)

The part that gets messy is when individuals have to choose between obeying a military junta or an illegitimately appointed civilian leadership, like...


the head of the MidWest office of the FBI gets phone calls from both a General and a new Attorney General and has to decide who to listen to, or

a Base Commander gets orders from his superior to institute martial law to take control of a neighboring city without an order or permission from a civil authority to do so (breaking posse comitatus, the law that says that the US military cannot be used within the US for law enforcement unless ordered to do so by civil authority), or

a Colonel orders a power company to limit electricity distribution to a city population so it can be concentrated on military production factories.


Of course, this is all besides the question of who is making personal plays for power on the grand national scale.

Uncle Ted

Milgov does not have the option of deciding if the current Cilgov deserves legitmancy. Milgov has no standing in constitutional law. Presidential elections have always been contested.

Since I'm new, I will just point out the United States presidential election of 1876. Nothing recent!😀

[Toxoplasmaman]

I, _____, having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers

Oath of Commissioned Officers is a bit different then enlisted. No mention of obeying President or superior officers.

Hmmm.

[The Dark]

Just a minor point, posse comitatus only applies to the US Army (and USAF as when the law was passed they were part of the Army), but not the US Navy, guard or reserves (unless Army guard/ reserves are called to federal duty).

While strictly true in that the law does not refer to branches other than the Army and Air Force, the Navy and Marine Corps were made subject to it by DoD Directive 5525.5. There is an exception for National Guard units if they're acting pursuant to the presidential power to subdue domestic violence (per 10 USC Sections 331-335, aka the Insurrection Act). Even if called for state service, NG regulations prohibit their use for normal law enforcement functions such as arrests, searching suspects, or handling evidence. They can perform surveillance, intelligence, and support roles, but are not supposed to be hands-on at the scene.

The Coast Guard is exempt unless they are placed under the control of the DoD in time of war, as they were Treasury and are now Homeland Security, and are not usually part of the DoD (and thus not included in DoD Directives). Exceptions also exist for cases involving nuclear material (18 USC 831) and chemical or biological weapons (10 USC 382), where DoD experts may be brought in to work with the DoJ for national security purposes.

[rcaf_777]

the head of the MidWest office of the FBI gets phone calls from both a General and a new Attorney General and has to decide who to listen to, or

a Base Commander gets orders from his superior to institute martial law to take control of a neighboring city without an order or permission from a civil authority to do so (breaking posse comitatus, the law that says that the US military cannot be used within the US for law enforcement unless ordered to do so by civil authority), or

a Colonel orders a power company to limit electricity distribution to a city population so it can be concentrated on military production factories.


Uncle Ted

Here what I see happening the head of the Mid West FBI office would mostly likely follow Attorney General as that what he has always done. However the
Special Agent in Charge (SAC) might question why is Attorney General giving orders and not the senior FBI staff.

Now the next on would be the opposite military officers would mostly likely follow the orders of a Superior Officer. the Base Commander might have reservations especially if deadly force was call for. But given that nukes had used and country I wouldn't see him acting otherwise.

Now the last case is the easiest the power company might listen to the colonel or not. It depends dose he make this request in person with armed troops or dose phone it in.

[shrike6]

If 3 secretaries survive (canon) and one is promoted to president. The remaining department's second or even third in command can be immediately promoted to acting secretary (as they have already been approved by the Senate) and be put back into the succession order. This was confirmed around 9/11 that deputies promoted to acting (but not yet approved for full secretary ship) are in the Line.

Every secretary serves at the whim of the president so even if someone cannot be found as is not dead, they can be removed and their deputy made acting secretary. Keeping the line full.

After the nukes start flying in China and Europe the Senate could quietly file paperwork approving all deputies for full promotion removing even that slight ambiguity. And my mention of a Quorum surviving allows full approval even if that paperwork is not done.

The big questions come in Jan of 1999 when all representatives and 1/3 of senators would no longer be legally office and in Jan of 2001 when the acting president's and another 1/3 of senators terms would be over. The numbers of senators might be higher than a 1/3 for 98 as I think governor appointments cannot server more than 2 years or until the next scheduled election.


edit forgot elections are in even years and replacement is odd.

That adds another issue from Canon the governor who appointed himself senator would no longer be serving in mid 99 if civil laws were enforced. If the president suspended elections and congress passed laws saying they stay in office until a new census is conducted after a nuclear attack that could keep things stable until a quorum was lost.

Canon had a great goal. Two competing governing forces that would allow some serious unit on unit combat like in Europe. How else could you explain airstrikes or artillery strikes on bridges or similar targets without it (outside of where Mexican and Soviet forces are). But the method of getting there has holes so large you could fly a C-5 through it. Maybe with some thought we can come up with something more plausible.

Edit forget elections are in even years and replacement in Jan of odd years.
Actually this is somewhat incorrect. Currently 36 states allow the governor to appoint a replacement to fill out the term. In the other 14, they require a special election some with temporary appointments and some without.

For example with John Broward, The Arkansas statute at the time stated that in a Senate race, the governor’s replacement serves until the next general election if that election is less than 12 months away. Otherwise, a special election would occur no more than 120 days after the vacancy occurs. One seat would have been up for reelection in 1996, the other would have up for reelection in 1998. Either way his seat would have required a special election within a 120 days of the appointment.

[Draq]

This is all operating on the presumption that such a level of detail is maintained after the TDM. I imagine things would go back to a more ad-hoc frontier style of decision making.

[Enfield]

Just wondering if anyone has ideas on how thses governments would look and function

Who in them? I know for the MILGOV is made up off the Joint Cheifs but who elese?

Since the nuclear attack happens on the US Thanksgiving Weekend, odds are a good number of senior government officals would surrive.

Also the US government could order key departments to have designated survivors and alternate HQ sucj as the FBI, CIA, or FEMA

Milgov.

1. I think Civil Affairs Officers and commands would become more important. In a cantonment, they would probably be the main liaison with civilian authorities in the areas. The relations would probably vary depending on what the situation was like. If there was relatively organized territory where mayors were still being elected or whatever local equivalent existed, if there was a governor or equivalent, then this would probably be a kind of partnership. The military would in some cases have seniority over production of important goods or products, in other cases they might be just defending the territory.

I also think that in some cases where there had been utter chaos, the military would have replaced the civilian governments locally. Perhaps they might be slowly built up. This would range from virtual proconsul like commanders in some areas to Milgov providing protection and support.

2. Generally Support command officers would have a totally different approach to providing support for the need to do a wide range of supplies that regular procurement contracts would not fill. They might have special units attached solely for maintaining a fuel refinery or ammunition production factory, water purification plant, etc.

3. Where possible, I picture Milgov having a Recovery Support (Unit) which would assess the viability of areas around contonments or field commands, establishing whether the area needs to be evacuated, if key infrastructure can be rebuilt and so on. This would also include future projections about a census and possibility of rebuilding the government.

4. Generally, for the near future, I imagine Milgov accepting the idea that there will be no presidency, and so the Chairman would be presented to those under Milgov as an ad hoc emergency government for the interim.

A possible alternative of course is some government agency--FEMA, the Director of an Agency on the National Security Council, etc--but the problem is that they might not have the legitimacy in the minds of military personnel unless they have shown a keen organizing ability and have won over the Joint Chiefs and other senior personnel.

5. Defense Agencies may still have installations or projects that are active. These may need direct assistance, rescuing and so on.

Civgov

1. CivGov might very well have appointed the regular cabinet, senior government agencies and so on. The staff would probably be a lot smaller. I picture the remaining agencies like a kind of Praetorian Guard for the Presidency.

- The CIA
- The FBI/ATF/DEA
- The NSA
- National Science Foundation
- NOAA (which has its own ships and facilities)

2. If you have seen the show "Borgia" the cardinals meeting are often a small group and I picture "Congress" being similar. As stated in canon some may not even properly represent their states. So I picture this being a hodgepodge of hangers on, courtiers, ne'er do wells and such. Or perhaps as in the last days of the Roman Republic, scattered, barely any authority save for those who represent states still relatively efective perhaps.