FLAGS,SYMBOLS,PATCHES,MARKINGS of the 2nd American Civil war and related conflicts

[headquarters]

I saw an interesting question on another forum .Someone asked for examples of symbols and flags ,shoulder patches,markings ,camopatterns etc used by the various sides .

Can anyone give info on this ?

The MilGov flag? What markings on vehicles and aircraft?What differences in uniform compared to CivGov?

What about other factions ? Polish Free States? Separatists in other countries?

Anything is appreciated.

If this already has been gone over I would really like a link to that thread.

[chico20854]

New America wears blue arm bands according to Airlords of the Ozarks.

I would imagine that both Milgov and Civgov, both claiming to be the legitimate governemnt of the US, would be loath to adopt any markings that differed from pre-war or wartime markings. There might be tactical markings that are adopted by local commanders to distinguish between vehicles from Civgov or Milgov troops - a la the "invasion stripes" on allied aircraft for the Normandy invasion or the white stripes the Pact vehicles used during the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968. I think that would be relatively rare, however, as many encounters between Civgov and Milgov troops would be long-range patrols, most likely on horseback or on foot.

The Polish Free Legion would use the pre-WW II Polish flag with the national coat of arms on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flaga_z_godlem_Rzeczypospolitej_Polskiej.PNG) . The Communists in Poland basically outlawwed the use of that flag. The cover art of one of the Return to Europe modules (White Eagle?) has Polish partisans flying a red flag with the Polish Eagle on it.

I could see other pre-Communist flags being used throughout Eastern Europe. The Romanian revolution in 1989 featured Romanian flags with the communist coat of arms prominently cut out of the middle.

Uniforms would likely be legacy uniforms. Shoulder patches and tactical markings would be up to the GM...

[Mohoender]

I'll only be talking of US here. Currently no time to think of flags for other countries. I have found a few on the net that are interesting and made up a few for both Civgov and Milgov.

The two flags found on the net are the US-communist flags and the US-native flag.

Of course each state has its own while a new confederate state would certainly adopt one of the confederate flags (whatever version would be nice or even may be several).

For Civgov, I propose a flag combining the US flag with the presidential flag.

For Milgov, I used either the same idea (US flag combined with US army flag) or a flag combining the 1916's presidential flag and the US flag (I like it better just because I find it more fun).

[Mohoender]

Erf, the fact that the US communist flag is bigger than the others was not made on purpose. I was taking care of my daughters and didn't noticed the size of it.:o It would be more difficult for aircraft markings. Any idea?

[kato13]

I Like there are two Presidential Flags with the eagle changing direction. One looking at the olive branch (peace) and one looking at the Arrows (war)

[headquarters]

but as Chico said ,changing means giving up legitimacy as the continuation gov .But I do like the part about combat markings etc -sounds natural.

I think I might use some of the flags though -nothing spells secession like messing with the flag layout!

[Mohoender]

but as Chico said ,changing means giving up legitimacy as the continuation gov .But I do like the part about combat markings etc -sounds natural.

I think I might use some of the flags though -nothing spells secession like messing with the flag layout!

I agree and that's why I thought that a combination of the presidential flag and national flag could be an idea. It shows your difference while still making a statement about legitimacy.

[Mohoender]

I made four more flags for France. Yes it remained outside of the war but the flag still can change.

One is a funny flag that I found about Belgium current situation (not relevant to this topic but I couldn't resist :D ).

Then, in my opinion, you'll find:
- the flag of Britany (probably semi independent from Paris).
- the Union Corse (combining the flag of Provence with the black head of Corsica)
- two possibilities for the Franco-Belgian Union. I like the one with the rooster of wallony. However, the other one includes the flag of Liège in the French flag. It makes an important statement as most people in the Province of Liège would tell you that their province is the only one and true Belgium. I'm not convinced by this but they have a point: Liège always retained some kind of independence under the rule of its Prince.

[Mohoender]

To get back to the main topics, here are the flag I would addopt

Cilgov flag would be made with the presidential flag with the eagle looking at the olive branch while Milgov flag would be made from a presidential flag with an eagle looking at the arrows. They are very similar but I agree with Chico and Kato. Both make a statement for legitimacy and I like the silght difference noted by Kato (actually I didn't even noticed it when I designed these flags:D; very good one Kato)

I picked up the idea of a confederate sovereign state (as I like that idea) and, of course, they are using the late confederate flag as they are also looking for some kind of legitimacy.

For New America, I simply used the Bonnie-Blue Flag as Chico reminded me of the blue arm band worn by New America in the Ozarks.

In my game I have an Allegheny Free State and used for it a modified flag from the Allegheny City Guard (I just find it very nice:) )

[Mohoender]

Several states are independent or semi independent in my game. Several are keeping their own flag and you will easily find them: Hawaii, New York City (Per cannon and, in my game, part of New York City survived), Rhode-Island, Texas, and Utah.

However, I slightly modified the flag of Alaska. When the Russian troops there found themselves isolated from Moscow, they switched loyalty to protect the people of Alaska (with help of several US personnels cut from command). As a result, they formed a semi-independent state that has more ties with the US and a new flag is now flown over Alaska.

[Mohoender]

Again, in my game, several important native nations have become semi-independent and they rule over their territories. They are not truly secessionist but, as specific groups, they might represent some form of stability.

I put five in the US:
- Cherokee (I love their flag)
- Iroquois
- Navajo
- Seminoles
- Sioux

[Mohoender]

Canada was not as shaken as the US by internal disorder. It retains its own flag and its easy to find that of Quebec.

However, I put one for the Algonquian (found on internet) and designed one for Sault Ste Marie (I like the idea of that city being semi-independent) combining the tribal flag with the canadian flag.

[Mohoender]

I would consider Mexico to be the last actor in the 2nd US civil war and it had its own civil war. As a result several flags are also in use in Mexico:

- Federales
- Constitutionales
- Nationalistas (the small square flag with the crown: Iturbide's flag)
- FMRP
- Chiapas

[General Pain]

the sourcebooks located below also has some fictive flags
http://thebigbookofwar.50megs.com/DOX/0-SOURCEBOOKS/

[Graebarde]

I'll only be talking of US here. Currently no time to think of flags for other countries. I have found a few on the net that are interesting and made up a few for both Civgov and Milgov.

The two flags found on the net are the US-communist flags and the US-native flag.

Of course each state has its own while a new confederate state would certainly adopt one of the confederate flags (whatever version would be nice or even may be several).

For Civgov, I propose a flag combining the US flag with the presidential flag.

For Milgov, I used either the same idea (US flag combined with US army flag) or a flag combining the 1916's presidential flag and the US flag (I like it better just because I find it more fun).

WTF did the US-communist flag come from? Sounds like a target got missed somewhere! As for factional flags, the Milgov and Civgov BOTH would fly the stars and stripes. Are we talking something else here? The stars and bars (confederate battle flag) would be local use, non official at all. State flags, ie the Lone Star would be common amoung Texas units I think. And Bonnie Blue is NOT a good choice for NA IMO. Flags are symbols and the reuse of them by others is a bit touchy sometimes.

[Mohoender]

WTF did the US-communist flag come from? Sounds like a target got missed somewhere! As for factional flags, the Milgov and Civgov BOTH would fly the stars and stripes. Are we talking something else here? The stars and bars (confederate battle flag) would be local use, non official at all. State flags, ie the Lone Star would be common amoung Texas units I think. And Bonnie Blue is NOT a good choice for NA IMO. Flags are symbols and the reuse of them by others is a bit touchy sometimes.

The US-communist flag was off-topic and found on the web. As a result, it doesn't reflect any personnal opinion but seemed interesting for game purpose (may be I had not made myself clear). For Milgov and Civgov I disagree with your idea but what I put on is only a proposal. It seemed to me that it was interesting for both to fly a flag that would be inspired by it.

The confederate flag, however, is not the battle flag but the National State Flag that was used during the last month of the war. This was only a reference to an old post coming from the RPGhost. The author of this post had put forward a Confederate Sovereign State that was interesting.

From what I recall, several states had declared independence and; therefore, would fly their own flag.

In addition, I would imagine each faction flying their own flag in addition to the star and stripes.

I agree for the Bonnie Blue but I couldn't imagine anything else and I'm still waiting for proposals from our American community. By the way it had been raised several time as a sign of independence (1810: Republic of West Florida, 1836: inspiration to first Texas flag, 1860-61: Jackson (Mississippi). This is the kind of statement made by NA and their main group is located in Florida and in the South. As a result, it could be one of their choice; a provocative one, I agree but why not? From what I understand from the game NA is not exactly a group of US patriots fighting for the revival of the USA.

By the way, Grae, I'm not sure about the meaning of your last sentence. This is a game and this is game subject only. If you are getting touchy even on that, I'm not sure to see the point of keeping that community togethere. This time I'm the one complaining, but people getting touchy on everything and anything start to be a itching my back a little too much around here. Give us a break!!:mad:

Ok I have done my part but most of these post have nothing to do with personnal, cultural or national attacks.:( Actually, I don't even think that anyone ever made such attack.:tapedshut

[Legbreaker]

My understanding is that both Civgov and Milgov see themselves as the rightful, legal and only real government of the USA. Therefore, any move away from even symbols of that would be avoided at all costs.

Without the symbols and trappings of the prewar government they are little more than yet another bunch of upstarts trying to forge their own empire. While they use the flag, have the constitution in their posession, declaration of independance, and/or dozens of other items and locations of historical and political significance, they will be viewed by many as legitimate.

The moment they mess with that, they become clowns.

[Mohoender]

My understanding is that both Civgov and Milgov see themselves as the rightful, legal and only real government of the USA. Therefore, any move away from even symbols of that would be avoided at all costs.

Without the symbols and trappings of the prewar government they are little more than yet another bunch of upstarts trying to forge their own empire. While they use the flag, have the constitution in their posession, declaration of independance, and/or dozens of other items and locations of historical and political significance, they will be viewed by many as legitimate.

The moment they mess with that, they become clowns.

Actually they are clowns but that is not anything like real life. Actually the flag proposed are not really going away from the stars and stripes but they need some way to differenciate themselves.

Then IMO, Civgov and Milgov are the weakest point on the American part of the game. I like them because they are very usefull in game terms but, from what I know and understand of Americans they would be both rejected by the population (IRL). In case of something like an armageddon that would wipe out a large part of the American population, the survivors would refound the USA (much like in the Day After or Supervolcano). Beside being overly touchy Americans have some very strong qualities: among them they stick behind their country. They might reject their governement but they will never do that for the country (except may be in favor of their own state). But even in that case, I expect this to last only as long as needed. I would imagine an independent Utah flying its state flag with the nation's flag on the side. Actually, I would imagine Civgov and Milgov to do the same with their falg on one side and the stars and stripes on the other side (or may be side by side).

Again, this is game material and if both Civgov and Milgov do come to existence they will have a way to differenciate themselves. In that case making a slightly different flag seemed a good option. If you have any other proposal I'll be happy to know. HQ asked an interesting question or so I think.

[headquarters]

In my campaign the MilGov /CivGov part is home grown .

Both use the American flag ,sometimes there are variations such as fewer stars ,stars in a circle or some such as tides ebb and flow in the various captitals and directives come and go .


I think I had distinctions along the lines of some use of different uniforms ( woodland/desert /od but this was a mix also with no clear guidelines to go by .


Both organizations claim to be the Federal goverment ,both operate a sham 2 house system ,both have many symbols taken from the US of A .


But in fact they are of course complex organizations with a wide variety in membership .Some are ruthless powerhungry types,other the willing executioners of said powerhungry types ,some just go along with it because of the semblance of normality they provide ,some are idealists really trying to piece it together ,some have no choice .But most people dont care wether or not its one or the other as they dont differ much as far as the man in the debris strewn street is concerned .

I have them down as sometimes warring ,sometimes in talks and as franchises that extend invites to any organized area to join and submit to their charter in return for their support .The leaderships may be at odds with eachother but sometimes the two sides have gotten a hold on an area by random events -and two neighbouring towns are not likely to start a fight over who sits at what desk 1000 miles away -they are fighting over stuff like water supply and farmland -if they are fighting at all .

Sheer distance and lack of comms and the ensuing misunderstandings would probably be the main reason for "secession" or independence for some areas .But for the elites /on the top having someone backing your legitimacy might be a major concern causing some violence to take place .

The split is useful though , as it allows for the players to exploit the chaos and carve out areas under their own control .

We have played a "warlord " type campaign and there have been diplomacy ,alliances,treason,warcrimes indictments,civil wars etc etc as well as the squad type action .But there has never been just the 2 sides competeing .Loads of other local organizations have butted in .As in my view ,the end of the world as we know it would have a lot of people acting on their own .Many would claim legitimacy by calling on dead or at least knocked out institutions like the former goverments etc .

[Targan]

My understanding is that both Civgov and Milgov see themselves as the rightful, legal and only real government of the USA. Therefore, any move away from even symbols of that would be avoided at all costs.
I agree with everything in Legbreaker's post. Matter of fact I find myself agreeing with most things that Legbreaker posts.

[Graebarde]

By the way, Grae, I'm not sure about the meaning of your last sentence. This is a game and this is game subject only. If you are getting touchy even on that, I'm not sure to see the point of keeping that community togethere. This time I'm the one complaining, but people getting touchy on everything and anything start to be a itching my back a little too much around here. Give us a break!!:mad:

Ok I have done my part but most of these post have nothing to do with personnal, cultural or national attacks.:( Actually, I don't even think that anyone ever made such attack.:tapedshut

Actually my remark was in game context, or ment to be. As you noted the Bonnie Blue was risen at least three time in the history of the US. But it would still be offensive to some for it to be used, at least if they got an inkling as to what/who was really behind it.

As for any attacks, if I came across that way... oh well that's me, but it was not intended for a personal attack of any sorts. <edit firebrand>

Grae

[kato13]

As for any attacks, if I came across that way... oh well that's me, but it was not intended for a personal attack of any sorts. <edit firebrand>

Grae

I didn't see anything you said as an attack. Just a statement that flags can evoke passion, so any adjustment by forces in game could enrage as well as unite a populace.

[Mohoender]

Actually my remark was in game context, or ment to be. As you noted the Bonnie Blue was risen at least three time in the history of the US. But it would still be offensive to some for it to be used, at least if they got an inkling as to what/who was really behind it.

As for any attacks, if I came across that way... oh well that's me, but it was not intended for a personal attack of any sorts. <edit firebrand>

Grae

So it seemed I overreacted a bit..., too much may be (I must have been tired and a bit touchy myself:D ). Sorry about that:o . Let's call that battle fatigue.

Now I see your point and, in Game terms, I thought of it exactly for the reason you gave. Acutally, what you said made me rethink of it nevertheless, and I would expect NA to use a flag that would be inspired by it but that would be different, nevertheless (may be reverse colors).

[James Langham]

So it seemed I overreacted a bit..., too much may be (I must have been tired and a bit touchy myself:D ). Sorry about that:o . Let's call that battle fatigue.

Now I see your point and, in Game terms, I thought of it exactly for the reason you gave. Acutally, what you said made me rethink of it nevertheless, and I would expect NA to use a flag that would be inspired by it but that would be different, nevertheless (may be reverse colors).

From memory there is an NA armband on the cover of one of the modules - Urban Guerilla?

[James Langham]

Excerpt from my history:

The flags of the Second US Civil War

As the civil war between CIVGOV and MILGOV started both sides were still using the US flag. Neither side was willing however to cede the use of this to the other by adopting a new flag (and thus seem to infer legitimacy on them). With both sides using identical uniforms and equipment this lead to a large number of blue-on-blue incidents. The result of this was the reluctance of units to fire upon each other without a positive identification usually based upon the unit insignia (which was only visible at short distances).

Occasionally MILGOV forces would be seen with a flag based upon the US Army pattern. More often the presidential seal on a blue background would be found used by CIVGOV although this was not common.

MILGOV did issue a brassard for militia units (who were without uniform) which had the wording “MILGOV Local Forces” (although the lettering and occasionally the wording was subject to variation) – many existing examples incorporated the US flag at the top. Despite stories stating that a similar brassard was created by CIVGOV, no genuine example has yet surfaced with all the existing ones being either post-war fakes or of unknown origin.

New America issued an arm band (as they too were commonly wearing standard US Army equipment), this consisted of a single white star on a background of a red stripe above a blue stripe. Few variations of this are known to exist.

[James Langham]

Excerpt from my history:

The flags of the Second US Civil War

As the civil war between CIVGOV and MILGOV started both sides were still using the US flag. Neither side was willing however to cede the use of this to the other by adopting a new flag (and thus seem to infer legitimacy on them). With both sides using identical uniforms and equipment this lead to a large number of blue-on-blue incidents. The result of this was the reluctance of units to fire upon each other without a positive identification usually based upon the unit insignia (which was only visible at short distances).

Occasionally MILGOV forces would be seen with a flag based upon the US Army pattern. More often the presidential seal on a blue background would be found used by CIVGOV although this was not common.

MILGOV did issue a brassard for militia units (who were without uniform) which had the wording “MILGOV Local Forces” (although the lettering and occasionally the wording was subject to variation) – many existing examples incorporated the US flag at the top. Despite stories stating that a similar brassard was created by CIVGOV, no genuine example has yet surfaced with all the existing ones being either post-war fakes or of unknown origin.

New America issued an arm band (as they too were commonly wearing standard US Army equipment), this consisted of a single white star on a background of a red stripe above a blue stripe. Few variations of this are known to exist.

[Legbreaker]

I support that statement 100%.
Why would either side give up even the smallest sign of their supposed legitimacy?
For propaganda reasons NA may look at something different, but it would likely be only a small variation on the theme and possibly incorporate elements from Canada (given NA doesn't seem to recognise that border). NA may also reduce the number of state stars on the flag also given they don't incorporate Hawaii into their "national ideal". As an organisation though the white star and red and blue stripes would remain their official insignia.

[simonmark6]

Little stars for US States and Maple Leaves for Canadian ones, that would look really cute.

Although I doubt if cuteness was high on NA's priority list.

[Rainbow Six]

Never paid that much attention to New America...do they recognise Canada as a separate nation subordinate to the US or do they think that it should be part of some sort of "Greater United States"?

If the latter then unlikely to see them adopting any sort of Canadian symbols imho...

There was an episode of Jericho where the flag of one of the various groups was seen...iirc the stripes were running vertically rather than horizontally and reference was made to the fact that it signified that it referred to the same original thirteen colonies but that they were now moving in a different direction...words to that effect...that strikes me as a plausible rationale for a group like New America...

[Webstral]

Never paid that much attention to New America...do they recognise Canada as a separate nation subordinate to the US or do they think that it should be part of some sort of "Greater United States"?

My understanding of New America is that they would see Canada as rightfully belonging to the US.

There was an episode of Jericho where the flag of one of the various groups was seen...iirc the stripes were running vertically rather than horizontally and reference was made to the fact that it signified that it referred to the same original thirteen colonies but that they were now moving in a different direction...words to that effect...that strikes me as a plausible rationale for a group like New America...

I like that so much that I’m going to adopt the idea for my own use.

There was a thread on New America and its possibilities a while back. I haven’t made any progress on my flagship New America concept, The Final Solution, in some time. I’ve been busy with school work and a new Thunder Empire piece. But I think I’ll combine the thirteen vertical stripes idea with a neo-Nazi symbol for the Idaho cell of New America.

[Legbreaker]

My understanding, and I'll have to check the books, is that NA did not see the Canadian border as more than a line on a map. NA was all about the north American continent rather than political boundaries.

[fisty]

i just found this site. and saw this posting and had to add in. A few years ago i was in a 18 month long airsoft game of the 2nd Civil War it was called Winds of Change. here is a little about the game and the way we wrote it. The game came about after almost a years worth of planning. it started off with 6 southers states dropping out of the union after gas prices hit 15 a gal. and the locals in thos states were making moonshine to run in there cars. The ATF came down on the locals hard and the states started to fight back against the ATF and then the Local Gaurd unites were ordered to stand against there local police and there own familys at which time the states started to go against washingtons orders and soon enough it was to a war. and the states walked out of the union. In the game the US broke into 4 parts the confedration the texas allaince, the northern allaince and picifica. after 18 months and 22 games we ended it with the Confedration winning. In our game the flags we used were the 1st national Confedrate the US flag and a few others i will try to find some photos from the games and post them here.

[Brother in Arms]

I think the Milgov should use an Subdued reverse American flag...as is it shown on a soldiers uniform. This will symbolically show that they are still the U.S. Gov but in a time of war.

And the Civgov continues to use the good old stars and bars and try to claim they are still the legimate government of the united states.

Who ever wins would presumably go back to using the original U.S flag for legitimacy reasons.

This would make it easy to tell who Milgov and Civgov but not really change the flag per se.


Also you would see the Gadsen Militia Don't tread on me flag all over the place..infact you do all ready. Possibly also the white Culpeppers don't tread on me which is white.
Personally I alway really liked the Bedford flag which is the oldest flag used in America during the revolutionary war. It looks like an armored arm holding sword.

I had a game that took place in Maine and the soldiers from Maine all had buff colored patches with green pine trees and a blue north stars on the front (and back) of there bush hats (like gurhkas) That was the original flag of the state of maine 1901-1909 before it was changed to the boring blue one with a farmer and a fisherman.

[Targan]

Who ever wins would presumably go back to using the original U.S flag for legitimacy reasons.

Neither side 'won'. According to canon MilGov and CivGov reunified in the end (I think it was in the year 2020).

[Legbreaker]

I think the Milgov should use an Subdued reverse American flag...as is it shown on a soldiers uniform. This will symbolically show that they are still the U.S. Gov but in a time of war.

VERY unlikely to happen. Military units may do that as they do now, but there's no way Milgov as a government would give Civgov a free kick by NOT using the official stars and stripes. There's just too much at stake to give Civgov such a huge propaganda coup. In fact, you may see uniforms changed to include the proper flag to reinforce in the eyes of the general populace that Milgov IS THE TRUE government of the USA.

[LAW0306]

I agree with leg but since its just a game why not do what you want.

[Brother in Arms]

Guys your probably correct both sides would want to say the are the legitimate U.S. Government.

So what do you think they would do as far as helradry to differentiate one side from the other? Also what about uniforms presumably they would both be wearing standard woodland BDU's or Later ACU,MARPAT ect.

I'm kinda hoping O.D. Green will make a come back.

[Legbreaker]

I don't see Milgov changing a thing.
Civgov may use different uniforms (where possible for newly raised units) and armbands where not.
Neither side will give up the flag or alter it in any way which will indeed mean much confusion when the two sides clash and the populace probably won't care much which government the troops are from anyway when they roll into town - soldiers are soldiers.

Informally, I can see units on both sides adopting unofficial insignia such a an armband or shoulder patch, or a stencil on the side of vehicles.

[Fusilier]

So what do you think they would do as far as helradry to differentiate one side from the other?

Everyone going in my direction is friendly.
Everyone going coming from the other direction is enemy.

As crude as it is, that's often how it ends up working in a lot of places where you don't a solid support base. When these armies can barely feed their soldiers on a day to day basis, even accommodating for uniforms is a tough one sometimes and it gets pushed aside for more important things.

[Legbreaker]

That's what I was touching on in my posts. In a perfect world where resources were plentiful, all sorts of changes could be considered, however in T2K soldiers are likely to be wearing the same clothes they had two years before and flags are unlikely to have a very high priority.