The 40th Infantry Division

[Enfield]

I'd appreciate some feedback or thoughts from others about this unit.

I have a group of players who are interested in playing out the fate of people attached to this unit. I have no copy of Howling Wilderness only the US Army Vehicle Guide. I had been thinking of placing them generally between Bakersfield and Oxnard, the general N-NW area beyond LA.

A few questions I'm wondering about:

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops?

2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA?

3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them.

4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like?

5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks?

[ArmySGT.]

1. How insurmountable would it be to have the more rural/country areas produce useful crops? San Joaquin valley.... Very easy if there is water. Bakersfield and Tulare grow just about anything. I have an Aunt there.


2. Would it be possible to get a desalinzation plant, power plant and some factories going in any of the smaller urban areas north of LA? It is a matter of scale. Windmills spinning and making 12v from alternators is pretty easy stuff. If you want 110v at 60hz another thing entirely. If you're the guy with electric lights, air conditioning, and cold beer expect trouble from criminals and dirty politicians most quick.


3. With the huge amount of large roads around that area, and fuel being short, would it be reasonable to use scouts using bicycles or horses to avoid unnecessary fuel loss? (I was thinking they could use solar powered or wind up radios to save on batteries) If they used this kind of means they could also observe the roads without having to be on them. If you are able to find tires for the bikes or feed for the horses. Neither is being made alot of.


4. If the game began in 2000, what would the numbers of refugees, scavengers and marauders/deserters be like? thousands.... LA is over 8 million in the 80's... the State .... 20 million?


5. The number of tanks/light tanks/engineering vehicles is around 24. What numbers are there likely to be for HMMWVs, FAVs, APCs, artillery, helicopters, trucks? T2K's great failing is that the material gave how many tanks and AT weapons a unit had and failed miserably in the real reapers.... mortar and artillery tubes.

The number of vehiles a unit has or might have is driven by the type of unit itself.... A U.S. Armor company would have 4 tanks per platoon... but the HQ would have an M577 and probably an M113...... plus CUCVs for the 1SG to get chow and supply to go get everything else. Light Infantry, nothing, they rely on their Battalion, Regiment, Brigade, and Division for motor transport. This gets wierder and different from Division to Division as not all MTOE is the same across Big Army.

[Enfield]

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion

What I'm trying to figure out is this: how many of all that would be left? The 40th is stated to have 3,000 troops left and about 24 IFVs which include a couple of M728s. For stuff like this, what have you done?

I was thinking of removing maybe all but one or two helicopters due to fuel shortages, and maybe a single battery of howitzers and rockets kept for a desperate emergency. Then cutting the number of ground ops battalions to five, and giving them smaller numbers of APCs or scout vehicles and having the rest be HMMWVs or converted civilian vehicles.

As I say though, I'm curious about what others have done.

[pmulcahy11b]

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

[ArmySGT.]

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion



10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/)

[Enfield]

In general, I disagree with the small amount of armored vehicles that canon gives the various divisions, as well as the foreign vehicles they would be operating, The canon also dropped the ball on delineating the unarmored vehicles, lightly-armored vehicles, engineer vehicles, missile carriers, etc, etc, etc.

They also might have put in notes that the divisions in question's personnel may not be using their countries' weapons and equipment, that the vehicles may not all be operable to fuel shortages and a lack of spare parts, and may be damaged but operable.

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

[Olefin]

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

[Louied]

From the California Military Museum

http://www.militarymuseum.org/40thORBAT94.html

[Olefin]

I suspect that that is because of the inspirational material. Post apocalyptic flm and literature often depicts characters endlessly walking (The Road, Swan Song) or driving jerry rigged civilian vehicles (The Stand, The Walking Dead). I remember when I had my first Twilight 2000 experience, the GM was a bit frustrated that we were doing too well--that we secured stockpiles of fuel, ammunition, water purification, etc, and simply ventured from a safe haven we had acquired to gather materials or other survivors.

I think that the idea of a unit having a well maintained APC or IFV is an affront to the body of inspiration, therefore. And the troops are supposed to fall apart, abandon their position, civilization needs to collapse.

This is why I'm thinking that California presents interesting challenges and why I asked about agriculture and industry as well as population migration, to figure out what is possible.

So what would yoru recommendations be?

Keep in mind that its one thing to be in Central Poland which was fought over and nuked over and over and over - its another to be in the area from San Francisco to Bakersfield - there was some fighting at the south and a few nukes - but not even close to the devastation you would see, for instance, in Manchuria, Northern China, Poland, western Czechoslovakia or Germany

[ArmySGT.]

i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

[Enfield]

10% of the equipment and 50% of the manpower at best.

The TOE (Tables of Organizational Equipment) to whih there is MTOE and BTOE for Modified Tables of Organizational Equipment and Basi Tables of Organizational Equipment.

Maybe this will help? THIS (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/)

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

[Enfield]

Actually working on a California module right now and have been looking at the 40th and what they may have by April of 2001 - and also what they might have by June of 2001 by using a resource that the game designers didnt know would be there - i.e. Littlefield's tank and armored vehicle collection and working tank and armored vehicle repair shop

and I dont agree with a complete collapse of civilization - there will be pockets that would still be in good shape in 2001 - especially if you have working power generation capability and areas that have oil still available - and the area where the 40th is has both - especially oil - i.e. the Bakersfield oil fields were not nuked and the refinery most likely stayed in US hands - and as the canon said where there is still oil and still power there is civilization - and given the amount of nuclear technicians in the USN and elsewhere in the area the Diablo Canyon power plant is a major possibility for power

So take power + oil + water (its the one place in CA where water even in a drought situation is probably still plentiful) and you have a very good possibility that civilization,while taking it on the chin, is not in collapse mode - versus LA to the south that had multiple nuke hits as well as an almost total lack of water and power generation and oil

That's my general thought as well--I thought that a large enclave zone would make sense with the area between Bakersfield and LA being scavenged and patrolled. I thought it would be fun if there were communities that the Player Characters would also try to get into contact with to gain intel, resources and assistance from in exchange for miltary assistance of whatever kind.

i also wondered what would happen to the other military and state police assets down around there, it strikes me as considerable in numbers and that they should not be written off so casually.

[ArmySGT.]

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

Scroll down the list....All of them are hyperlinks to each type of unit. Reading carefully in the print you will see exactly how many vehicles are assigned and to whom.

The reason that isn't so easy to answer is that there are different MTOEs for different Aviation units, and that is the same for all of them.

Light Utility Battalion
1 HQ Company and 4 Aviation Companies.

HQ Company
16 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
1 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
3 x 2 1/2-T Trk

Aviation Company
8 UH-1H
6 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
9 x 2 1/2-T Trk
6 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
1 x 5-T 6x6 Wrkr
2 x Trk Forklift

2. MISSION/CAPABILITIES/SECTION I.

a. Provides command, control, supervision, and planning of
operations for the Reserve Component Light Utility Aviation
Battalion.

b. Provides utility helicopter elements for rapid employment
as a part of the combined arms force.

c. Provides unit level personnel service and logistical
support for all organic or attached units.

d. See the appropriate TOE Section I for a complete list of
capabilities and limitations of these units.

3. ASSIGNMENT. Organic to the Corps Aviation Group, TOE 01410A.

4. PERSONNEL.

a. Personnel strength for this organization is as follows:

TOE DESIGN DOCUMENTED DIFFERENCE

01456A000 N/A 80 N/A
01457A000 X 4 N/A 90 N/A

[Enfield]

From the California Military Museum

http://www.militarymuseum.org/40thORBAT94.html

Thanks very much!

[ArmySGT.]

Attack Helicopter Battalion.

1 Headquarter and Headquarters Company.
3 Attack Companies.
1 Aviation Unit Maintenance Company.

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

Attack Company
8 AH-64A
2 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
1 x 2 1/2-T Trk

Aviation Unit Maintenance Company
2 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
1 x Trk Forklift
1 x 2 1/2-T Van

2. MISSION/CAPABILITIES/SECTION I.

a. Provides command, control, supervision, and planning of
operations for the Attack Battalion.

b. Provides attack helicopter elements for rapid employment as
a part of the combined arms force.

c. Provides aerial escort and suppressive fires for air assault
or other tactical operations, mobile firepower to exploit the effects
of artillery and other indirect fire, or highly mobile aerial fire-
power for other tactical missions.

d. Provides unit level personnel service and logistical support
for all organic or attached units, including aviation unit mainten-
ance for all organic aircraft.

e. See the appropriate TOE Section I for a complete list of
capabilities and limitations of these units.

3. ASSIGNMENT. Organic to the Division Aviation Brigade, TOE 01200A
or 01300A or Corps Aviation Brigade, TOE 01480A.

4. PERSONNEL.

a. Personnel strength for this organization is as follows:

TOE DESIGN DOCUMENTED DIFFERENCE

01386A200 N/A 133 N/A
01387A200 X 3 N/A 27 N/A
01389A200 N/A 116 N/A

[ArmySGT.]

Thanks, I was trying to find that site but could not for some reason.

So would you have the same number for aviation, artillery and engineers as well?

The problem with answering is......the MTOE is different for Battalions and Companies due to the type of Division these were built to be a part of..

40th is what type of Infantry Division? With all the Mechanized Battalions I would have to surmise it is an ersatz Mechanized Infantry Division (Minus)... Lacking alot of support units and its Armor Battalions.

Assuming Mechanized Infantry.

Where are the Two and supposed to three Brigade HQ units and Division Support Brigade HQ?


bah! damn this forum software formatting.

I'll do it in Word and make a PDF so it is possible to read it.

[Enfield]

The problem with answering is......the MTOE is different for Battalions and Companies due to the type of Division these were built to be a part of..

40th is what type of Infantry Division? With all the Mechanized Battalions I would have to surmise it is an ersatz Mechanized Infantry Division (Minus)... Lacking alot of support units and its Armor Battalions.

Assuming Mechanized Infantry.

Where are the Two and supposed to three Brigade HQ units and Division Support Brigade HQ?


bah! damn this forum software formatting.

I'll do it in Word and make a PDF so it is possible to read it.


Thanks--I think to be really clear: I'm not concerned about how much they have NOW. I get all that. What I'm trying to figure out is what they would have LEFT by 2001 April of the campaign setting.

For instance, you mention this:

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

So what would the HHC have left? According to what you wrote above, 1, perhaps 2 HMMWVs, 2, perhaps 3 5-T trucks, 0 2 1/2 tons or forklifts.

However I wonder about that--what kind of forklifts are these anyway? I have operated forklifts and they were either electrical or propane.

[ArmySGT.]

Thanks--I think to be really clear: I'm not concerned about how much they have NOW. I get all that. What I'm trying to figure out is what they would have LEFT by 2001 April of the campaign setting.

For instance, you mention this:

HHC
18 x 1 1/4-T HMMWV
28 x 5-T 6x6 Trk
6 x 2 1/2-T 6x6 Trk
2 x Trk Forklift

So what would the HHC have left? According to what you wrote above, 1, perhaps 2 HMMWVs, 2, perhaps 3 5-T trucks, 0 2 1/2 tons or forklifts.

However I wonder about that--what kind of forklifts are these anyway? I have operated forklifts and they were either electrical or propane.

Probably Rough Terrain Forklifts.....maybe Telehandlers. The BTOE is not that specific. These are heavy equipment and have diesel engines.

The basis is what did they start with....when was the Division activated and what was available to form a Division at that time? If the Division was active before the war it would have 100%. Activated after the war began and that goes down. Their are categories of mobilization, that determines what a unit has..... Down at Category C mobilization the unit has the barest cadre of Officers and Non commissioned Officers without equipment or lower enlisted. While and all up Level 1 has everything and everyone (ideally).

There are several factors in what to they have now....... 2000....
What did they have at activation?
What losses have they taken in combat?
What losses have they taken to wear/tear and lack of parts?
What was taken by a higher HQ and distributed to other units to attain some level of mission readiness? Example..... 5ton trucks taken from Aviation Maintenance and transferred to Division Artillery to move towed guns.

At what minimum is the unit still capable of performing their mission or mission support activities?

4095

[Enfield]

Probably Rough Terrain Forklifts.....maybe Telehandlers. The BTOE is not that specific. These are heavy equipment and have diesel engines.

The basis is what did they start with....when was the Division activated and what was available to form a Division at that time? If the Division was active before the war it would have 100%. Activated after the war began and that goes down. Their are categories of mobilization, that determines what a unit has..... Down at Category C mobilization the unit has the barest cadre of Officers and Non commissioned Officers without equipment or lower enlisted. While and all up Level 1 has everything and everyone (ideally).

There are several factors in what to they have now....... 2000....
What did they have at activation?
What losses have they taken in combat?
What losses have they taken to wear/tear and lack of parts?
What was taken by a higher HQ and distributed to other units to attain some level of mission readiness? Example..... 5ton trucks taken from Aviation Maintenance and transferred to Division Artillery to move towed guns.

At what minimum is the unit still capable of performing their mission or mission support activities?

4095

This is what is in the US Army Vehicle Guide.

40TH INFANTRY DIVISION (Mechanized) (less 1st Brigade)
The division was formed at Camp Rilea, Oregon on 1/1 7/98 as the 40th Training Division from surviving command and support personnel of the 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) which had been evacuated from Germany. The division was quickly brought up to strength by recent inductees and assigned a variety of security, disaster relief and reconstruction tasks in Oregon and northern California. In March the division came under command of the newly-activated 63rd US Corps and moved south by road. In May the division arrived at Camp Roberts, California.

After being reinforced by a variety of armored vehicles the division was again redesignated as 40th Infantry Division (Mechanized) and committed to combat against elements of the Mexican Army and assorted armed bands.


Tbe missing 1st Brigade is, according to canon, still in Austria.

[ArmySGT.]

Jesus the T2K canon is full stupid sometimes.

A Division (minus) is formed in January of 98 from a cadre of veterans.

Instead of training with the new troops and equipment they under take non combat operations, then six weeks later deploy to combat.

On the plus side...... formed in 98 with veterans of combat in Europe.

So they get formed with the War Reserve (if that hasn't been nuked) from Sierra Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot, and some others. That's good news they should have received 100% of the equipment in pristine depot condition.

Six weeks isn't enough time to work up to an acceptable level of training and competence for the new soldiers assigned or the Division readiness either.

Without the Armor Battalions, the unit isn't ready. That is taking one whole piece out of the Combined Arms Team and a doctrinal failure. The M2 Bradley unit would have to be used as the Armor force and probably have been decimated with the survivors now light infantry for the most part. The Attack Aviation is probably decimated too. Battle damage and high use without spares from the high tempo of screening and scouting for light armor doing the heavy armor mission.

Deployed by road? No.

Tanks and anything on tracks doesn't go long distances on their tracks due to wear and maintenance issues.

Somehow, this 63rd Corps brought in a hundred or more civilian low boy tractor trailers and drove them to California. Whew. That was expensive and difficult. Then a hundred or more civilian buses to move the people.

Where did they get half a million gallons of diesel in 98?

[Enfield]

Jesus the T2K canon is full stupid sometimes.

A Division (minus) is formed in January of 98 from a cadre of veterans.

Instead of training with the new troops and equipment they under take non combat operations, then six weeks later deploy to combat.

On the plus side...... formed in 98 with veterans of combat in Europe.

So they get formed with the War Reserve (if that hasn't been nuked) from Sierra Army Depot, Tooele Army Depot, and some others. That's good news they should have received 100% of the equipment in pristine depot condition.

Six weeks isn't enough time to work up to an acceptable level of training and competence for the new soldiers assigned or the Division readiness either.

Without the Armor Battalions, the unit isn't ready. That is taking one whole piece out of the Combined Arms Team and a doctrinal failure. The M2 Bradley unit would have to be used as the Armor force and probably have been decimated with the survivors now light infantry for the most part. The Attack Aviation is probably decimated too. Battle damage and high use without spares from the high tempo of screening and scouting for light armor doing the heavy armor mission.

Deployed by road? No.

Tanks and anything on tracks doesn't go long distances on their tracks due to wear and maintenance issues.

Somehow, this 63rd Corps brought in a hundred or more civilian low boy tractor trailers and drove them to California. Whew. That was expensive and difficult. Then a hundred or more civilian buses to move the people.

Where did they get half a million gallons of diesel in 98?

I was thinking that the story needs to be narrowed down, not just to make sense but provide a background that works with the setting.

BTW, is there any reason trains could not be used to transport the gear, vehicles and people? That seems more efficient and less costly to me. As i understand it there are both freight and Amtrak hubs in Bakersfield.

[Olefin]

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

The machine shop is no more or less equipped than any shop built to service heavy industrial earth moving equipment. The proximity of the shop to San Francisco and the pasting the Navy fleet yards have taken from nuclear weapons makes doubtful the personnel from there are alive or there is power to operate anything.

It is murder to send people out to fight in the year 2000 with a tank that was rendered obsolete in 1944 by the weapons of that time.

Murder.

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

[Olefin]

and where do you get a million gallons of diesel in 1998- lots of places if you are the US Army - the fuel shortage per the canon as far as the Army running out of fuel didnt hit until later in the year after the Mexicans invasion disrupted supplies coming out of Texas - now moving that division in 2001 would mean having oil from Bakersfield - and luckily for the US they still have both the oil field and the refinery

[Matt Wiser]

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

[Enfield]

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them - and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

I suspect it depends on what you are up against as well. If you are largely up against people who are at most armed with small arms and improved weapons, WWII era vehicles and armour are likely to be very effective. Even against lightly armed military units they would pose a threat. My only question is this: would the 40th ID make use of such vehicles if they had access to depots and replacement parts? How soon do you think such things would run out?

[Enfield]

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Lovely stuff. Where is it, exactly?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Don't forget a key source of vehicles: the Littlefield Armor Collection....40th ID would have some of those-and others would go to other MilGov forces in the state.

Olefin mentioned the Littlefield collection earlier. It's a post from yesterday and as Olefin said, the collection held items from the WW1 up to the 1980s but, when considering the T2k world, also included some 1990s vehicles. And it wasn't just armoured vehicles, he also collected military trucks, artillery and a small collection of infantry weapons.

[pmulcahy11b]

A waste of resources. WW2 tanks are obsolete even in T2K. Only the few machines from the 1960 onward show any promise and those are still a drain on resources without the parts to run them, without mechanics that can service them, and without crews trained to operate them.

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

[Olefin]

Location of the collection is the following:

Location Portola Valley, California
Coordinates 37.200978°N 122.112816°W

Its in the mountains between San Jose and Santa Cruz

The ones that he had running and operational he had spare parts for - i.e. the whole collection wasnt operational but he had a significant amount of vehicles ranging from tanks to trucks to self propelled guns that were fully operational and had spare parts for - when the place was auctioned off a lot of what was bought was the huge spare part collection he had - and some of his vehicles (like his Ferret for instance) would have only needed to have functional machine guns put on them and they would have been fully ready for combat

As for ammo for the bigger vehicles - he had a lot of shells of various kinds that could have been used - they were practice rounds (and from what I understood he did have a small amount of live ammo as well) but those could have been made live - keep in mind that the many of the tanks and other armed vehicles he had used the same ammo that was already being used by MilGov units in the area (i.e. for instance for his M60A1 that had a live barrel and for his M60A2 with the live barrel as well as his Centurion Mk13 that used the same ammo that the M1 used) - so its more a case of some of the oddballs instead of most of what he had that was working

As an example of what he had this is the description of the M50 Israeli Sherman Tank that he had including its condition and the spares that came with it when it was auctioned off

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun? The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

"The tank being offered, M50 Israeli Sherman Medium Tank, is in beautiful condition. It is based on an M4A4 hull and has been upgraded by the Israelis with a Cummins diesel and HVSS. In Israeli terms, this version of the M50 is considered to have all of the final modifications done to it. It has the later engine deck with the exhaust louvers cut into it and the engine exhaust outlet mounted on the rear of the engine deck. An exhaust outlet for the auxiliary generator is fitted to the left side of the hull. It has full applique armor on both the hull and turret. A bracket for carrying a roll of barbed wire is mounted on the driver's applique armor plate. Exterior and interior paint are perfect. The turret bares the tank number “A-2” in Hebrew. All exterior lights are present and intact. A bracket for a main armament searchlight is mounted on the mantlet. However, the searchlight is not included. A canvas cover that is in excellent condition seals the gap between the gun mantlet and front of the turret. The turret roof in front of the commander's cupola has been fitted by the Israelis with a second machine gun pintle socket. The tracks, wheels and other suspension components are perfect. It is currently equipped with T84 rubber block tracks. Two different drive sprocket plates are fitted to this tank, the D47366B forged type and the D47366 flat plate type. The engine runs well and the vehicle drives well. All driver controls function normally. The turret has the hand-operated spotlight mounted on the roof. The commander's turret hatch rotates freely on its ball race. All hatches open and close normally. The canvas head pads on the hatches are in very good condition. The main armament elevates and depresses manually. The turret rotates manually. The operational status of the hydraulic turret traverse is not known. A U.S. VRC-type radio is installed inside the turret bustle; however, it is not known if it is operational. Crew intercom boxes are mounted at each crew station. All periscope glass is in good condition. Several spare periscope blocks are included. It comes equipped with six spare track links, two spare roadwheels, seven Israeli pattern plastic water cans, and several machine gun ammunition boxes. Pioneer tools included with the tank include the axe, mattock and mattock handle.

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

Please note, this lot is a registered Destructive Device. Bidders for this lot must meet certain qualifications; please review the BATFE guidelines"

[Olefin]

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

And I agree with Paul - remember the canon statement in the US Army Vehicle Guide - and I quote "by 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank"

Thus even a fully functional Sherman tank would be considered a very useful addition to any US unit by 2000-2001

[Enfield]

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble? What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff?

For example, I love the M20 Greyhound as a vehicle, I even had a model of one as a kid that I put together with loving care--but why get one if Humvees are available? Other than rule of cool?

On the other hand, if there are severe interruptions of supply and parts and replacements, then I could totally see it. I know at least one of my players would be down for it as he is a serious afficionado about that era.

[Olefin]

Having Littlefield there would mean those vehicles have spare parts and are in good condition. He would be the difference between vehicles from there and ones that get pulled out of a museum or found in some collector's garage

FYI there is definitely a canon reference to players finding an armored vehicle in a collectors garage - see the Gateway to the Spanish Main module - a fully functional M113 APC that only needs a battery and fuel (or conversion to alcohol from gas) and a machine gun to put on the pintle

[mpipes]

I have a hidden away WWII underground abandoned depot with several tanks and APCs as well as trucks loaded with loot.

[WallShadow]

I have a hidden away WWII underground abandoned depot with several tanks and APCs as well as trucks loaded with loot.

And on a parallel note, how about a pre-WW2 Nazi-sympathizer compound located near Santa Monica, and perhaps now in the employ of our good buddies New America?

https://californiathroughmylens.com/murphys-ranch-abandoned-nazi-camp-in-santa-monica/

[Enfield]

And on a parallel note, how about a pre-WW2 Nazi-sympathizer compound located near Santa Monica, and perhaps now in the employ of our good buddies New America?

https://californiathroughmylens.com/murphys-ranch-abandoned-nazi-camp-in-santa-monica/

That's kinda hilarious. I'm actually interested in exploring the activities of New America in California. Does anyone know canon or have ideas about that?

[unkated]

Paul - can the ammo for the LAV-75 be used for that gun? The 40th had LAV-75's issued to it

....

The M50 as the upgraded tank was called consisted of the 75-mm CN75-50 gun mounted in the modified turret.

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA

[pmulcahy11b]

In a short word, no. Very different weapon systems; different breeches.

The Sherman's 75mm ammo would not fit in the breech, much less the loader in the LAV-75. The LAV-75's gun has more power - meaning the shells are longer and wider (and won't fit in the Sherman's breech); if forced in, there is a decent chance the breech would blow inside the tank.

The CN75-50 gun in the Israeli M-50 is a French postwar design - different from the US WW2 period weapon and the LAV-75s weapon.

Among the larger problems with using this antique weaponry is limited ammo. You can swap out the .30 cal MGs for M60s easily enough, but in 1999, it will be difficult to find a factory to restart making old 75mm shells.

It's not technically difficult, but difficult to recreate and coordinate the retooling and supply chain needed to do so. Though there is probably some left in an army depot somewhere.... (sounds like an scenario or two).

Uncle Ted

What he said.

[shrike6]

Thanks for the replies, those are helpful.

Yeah I am not sure what they would have in the motor pool or armory, so I guess I'm kinda guessing at that.

What is says in the US Army Vehicle Guide is that the 40th would have: (leaving out the tank battalions)
- 4 Mech Battalions (M113)
- 2 Mech Battalions (M2 Bradley)
- 1 Cavalry Battalion (M113)
- 1 AH-1 Battalion
- 1 Utility helicopter Battalion
- 3 Howitzer Battalions
- 1 MRLS Battalion
- 1 Roland Battalion



Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

[Enfield]

Skimmed through thread so maybe I missed it where this was pointed out but The 40th ID in California (ex 40th TD) is not the prewar CA NG 40th ID. I'm assuming thats the prewar order of battle for the 40th and that the 40th TD would be somewhat different given the situation in which it was formed.

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

[Olefin]

This is true according to canon. Apparently one brigade is left in Austria in '98 and the others form the nucleus for a Reserves call up, so you're quite right, who knows what it might be made up of. I welcome speculation.

The 40th that is in CA right now is made up of excess personnel that was brought home from Europe (with the 1st brigade left in Europe) and then rebuilt with new personnel from the West Coast and equipped with whatever could be found which is why it had such a grab bag of equipment even when you look at the tanks it has - including using engineering vehicles as tanks

Which means it could literally be made up of anything - including vehicles from Littlefield's collection

[mpipes]

Just as a side note, I was doing Cowboy Action Shooting in the mid-90s and one of the guys brought in a mint condition 1884 Springfield Rifle. A buddy of his helping clean out a warehouse at the Red River Arsenal found a full crate of carefully packed rifles! The crate left in his pick up and the rifles were distributed to friends and relatives.

[Enfield]

The 40th that is in CA right now is made up of excess personnel that was brought home from Europe (with the 1st brigade left in Europe) and then rebuilt with new personnel from the West Coast and equipped with whatever could be found which is why it had such a grab bag of equipment even when you look at the tanks it has - including using engineering vehicles as tanks

Which means it could literally be made up of anything - including vehicles from Littlefield's collection


Very good point. I will bear this in mind. That means that Grehounds and Shermans could be possible! Or possibly my favourites, the Lee and the Grant!

[Enfield]

Just as a side note, I was doing Cowboy Action Shooting in the mid-90s and one of the guys brought in a mint condition 1884 Springfield Rifle. A buddy of his helping clean out a warehouse at the Red River Arsenal found a full crate of carefully packed rifles! The crate left in his pick up and the rifles were distributed to friends and relatives.


That is awesome. So a question: ammo? A bit of research tells me that one would have to use cast bullets with blac powder. Is this true? Would PCs if they found such a crate have to make their own rounds?

[ArmySGT.]

Actually it isnt - considering the fact that the Mexican Army probably by 2001 has used almost every anti-tank weapon they had a WWII Sherman tank is probably very effective - especially against infantry armed with just rifles - they were very effective against German and Italian infantry that tried to fight them without anti-tank weapons so they will just as well in 2001

Irrelevant... ATGMs are not necessary to kill tanks. ATGMs are a defensive system, tanks are primarily killed by artillery with other tanks being number two. A tank spotted by an FO gets gifted contact fused HE really, really fast.

The WW2 comparison is a non starter too. Training even for Support troops includes how to kill tanks. The “tank terror” of the past is just that, in the past. A WW2 Sherman doesn't have enough armor in the hull sides to resist a 40mm HEDP round and those are used by both sides. Any infantryman is taught to make improvised explosives and Sappers even better. Saddle bag charges, satchel charges, and platter charges will do it and anyone is able to make thermite with brillo pads and aluminum powder from a paint supplier. A WW2 Sherman is up against 1990s Infantrymen with night vision, squad radios, and precise on call artillery support. Any 40mm HEDP or rifle grenade is going to punch right through the side armor of either the hull or turret. Once that happens the penetrating jet will slice right into the exposed ammunition, fuel cells, and crew in this tank with no spall liners or compartmentalized ammunition. Ronson, is the nickname, I believe.

As for obsolete - tell that to the Israeli's - they used Shermans until the late 70's and they did very well with them That had more to do with the Arabs very poor training, lack of coordination, little or no Command and Control locally, and lack of concentration of effort. On the Israeli side very superior training and outstanding air ground operation.

Very Well? Source Tank Encyclopedia. M50 (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Israel/M50-51_Super-Sherman.php) "But the main test in large scale came with the Six-Day War in 1967. Virtually all M-50 and M-51 were thrown in action in Golan Heights and the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula, confronted with soviet WW2 era T-34/85s (Battle of Abu-Ageila) and SU-100 tanks. However, in 1973, these tanks were again committed in large numbers, despite their obsolescence and due to the desperate nature of the struggle. Losses were heavier since their opponents were better armed. however, it was shown that the 105 mm armed M51s were able to score kills on the T-54/55 and T-62s using HEAT ammunition."

The analogy boils down to …... Good troops with poor equipment will defeat poor troops with good equipment, all other considerations being equal, in any engagement.

[/QUOTE]- and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap [/QUOTE] The only ones worth a damn in that paragraph are the two M60s and the M47. Ship the Centurion to Canada in trade for something else. There is no ammo in the supply chain or spare parts for them. Most importantly there is no one trained to operate them or repair them. No place to train on them or instructors with knowledge on them. Give the Sherman to the California Highway Patrol to guard the Governors mansion or the State Treasury.

A tank with no ammunition, no radios, no spare parts, no one to operate it, no one to repair it, and no training available to fix that is a drain on scarce resources.


as for its location - sorry but no nuclear blasts anywhere near it - you might want to look at the canon nuke locations - its in the mountains between Santa Cruz and San Jose - they would have had to hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder to even possibly affect it - and they didnt - the city is still there - Littlefields depot is fine and dandy - and the perfect place to bring those Bradley's, M1A1 and M109's that need to be repaired It is near enough the Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard and the Stanford/Palo Alto/ Menlo park areas to not have faired well at all. Indeed, the people that work or volunteer at the plae are probably dead from strikes on the Naval, Marine, and Air Force facilities all around the Bay.

As to Canon game material, you don't follow all of it, picking and choosing what you agree with and using that.

Also - he had a complete tank repair facility including the equipment and welders to do armor welding - which is a hell of a lot more than just a facility that can repair heavy earth moving equipment - I know I used to work at BAE and the kind of equipment he had was every bit as good as what we were using for repairing armored vehicles that came in with battle damage - or that we used to make brand new M88A2's for Iraq - he could and did take beat to hell tanks that looked like they were one step from the scrapyard and make them into fully restored and operational tanks - and your average heavy earth moving repair shop couldnt even begin to do that

Armor welding isn't magic. Thermite welding is used in Heavy Equipment too. There is nothing about the facility that isn't available 1000 times over spread out over the State wherever there is a Mine or earth moving contractor. The armor welding your alluding to special knowledge of, corresponds to welding composite armor, the layered steel, titanium, ceramic, depleted uranium, lead, and resins. Something that none of the tanks mentions has as part of its armor, hull, or chassis. Since all of these hull are Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) the worst possible to be behind in modern times that doesn't matter.

[ArmySGT.]

I disagree. By 1999 or later, most units would be happy to have an armored vehicle -- any armored vehicle, even those a bit long in in the tooth. The trick would be to get these vehicles running reliably (you can't just order the parts on the internet, like today), and a bigger stunt would be to find the ammunition for the large caliber guns for the vehicles. Finding these would be right up the alley of a PC team.

How?

Who maintains it in the field? Where do they train gunnery? Who trains them on gunnery for that matter? Who has trak pad and pins every 500 miles?

Running them is going to be a huge xhore. There are no radios in them that talk to modern radios, no main gun ammunition, 30.06 linked? Where are you getting that? Optical range finding equipment in daylight only, and severely degraded night fighting.

To put a Sherman in the field takes hundreds of man hours of resources to get it running, then hundreds of hours to train maintainers for engine, tranny, turret, and ordnance, then hundreds of hours in driving and gunnery to get a crew even familiar with it.

For a tank that won't last five minutes in a fight.

Better off going into the desert (Ft Irwin, Twenty Nine Palms) and hauling out the M47s and M48s used as targets. That way atleast you will find people with some of the knowledge to make them useful and survive for a bit.

[ArmySGT.]

Having Littlefield there would mean those vehicles have spare parts and are in good condition. He would be the difference between vehicles from there and ones that get pulled out of a museum or found in some collector's garage No, it doesn't. There is a finite supply of parts and by no means something for every possible action or break down. Then, there are limits to what the people there (if their alive) are able to make on site. Some of that requires smelters, multi ton casting, and the machinery to work on something very large indeed, like a tanks road wheels or drive bogie. Given years, sure. In the need, right now, of active fighting something not in the supply chain is going to get abandoned or burned then abandoned. There is no way that Littlefield has an endless supply of parts, filters, belts, track pads, and all ephemera for sustained combat. Enough with months to prepare for a vanity lap outside, perhaps.

FYI there is definitely a canon reference to players finding an armored vehicle in a collectors garage - see the Gateway to the Spanish Main module - a fully functional M113 APC that only needs a battery and fuel (or conversion to alcohol from gas) and a machine gun to put on the pintle

An M113 is atleast current. Though M113 versus A2 or A3 and the engine parts would be a 350 gasoline motor. Just enough armor for big bullets and shrapnel to enter then bounce around inside shredding the passengers.

[ArmySGT.]

That is awesome. So a question: ammo? A bit of research tells me that one would have to use cast bullets with blac powder. Is this true? Would PCs if they found such a crate have to make their own rounds?
There are specialty providers of ammunition a person could order correct ammunition from for these. Most people would still hesitate to fire live ammo through something like this. You never know the quality and doing so degrades the collectors value.

There is alot of bullet molds, cases, case shaping methods, and gun powders for this though.

[Olefin]

No, it doesn't. There is a finite supply of parts and by no means something for every possible action or break down. Then, there are limits to what the people there (if their alive) are able to make on site. Some of that requires smelters, multi ton casting, and the machinery to work on something very large indeed, like a tanks road wheels or drive bogie. Given years, sure. In the need, right now, of active fighting something not in the supply chain is going to get abandoned or burned then abandoned. There is no way that Littlefield has an endless supply of parts, filters, belts, track pads, and all ephemera for sustained combat. Enough with months to prepare for a vanity lap outside, perhaps.


An M113 is atleast current. Though M113 versus A2 or A3 and the engine parts would be a 350 gasoline motor. Just enough armor for big bullets and shrapnel to enter then bounce around inside shredding the passengers.

Sorry but in this case you are wrong - Littlefield literally had thousands of parts at his place - when they auctioned it all off even the people who worked there couldnt believe how much he had - every tank and armored vehicle he had was eventually supposed to be restored and he had the parts to do it. As for making parts - he literally brought tanks back to life that came in as wrecks - his guys werent just mechanics off the street - they were specialists in welding armored vehicles, making spare parts by hand you name it. Now does that mean those vehicles could be working for years - probably not - but a few months in order to give the 40th the added punch in kicking the Mexicans south to at least LA if not further south - yes they would last that long for sure.

Again this isnt your average collector we are talking about here - he had over 200 military vehicles in his collection. That what being a multi-millionaire (several times over) can get you

[Olefin]

How?

Who maintains it in the field? Where do they train gunnery? Who trains them on gunnery for that matter? Who has trak pad and pins every 500 miles?

Running them is going to be a huge xhore. There are no radios in them that talk to modern radios, no main gun ammunition, 30.06 linked? Where are you getting that? Optical range finding equipment in daylight only, and severely degraded night fighting.

To put a Sherman in the field takes hundreds of man hours of resources to get it running, then hundreds of hours to train maintainers for engine, tranny, turret, and ordnance, then hundreds of hours in driving and gunnery to get a crew even familiar with it.

For a tank that won't last five minutes in a fight.

Better off going into the desert (Ft Irwin, Twenty Nine Palms) and hauling out the M47s and M48s used as targets. That way atleast you will find people with some of the knowledge to make them useful and survive for a bit.

Except for one little problem - the Mexican Army has both places - so you go with the next best thing. And those Shermans were in running condition with live barrels. As for ordnance - the Centurion Mk13 used the same shells that the M1 did that was part of the 40th - ditto the M60A1 and the M60's that they had - and the M60A2 used the same ordinance that the M551 used - which would have still been around and kicking - as for machine gun ammo - have a feeling the US Army had a lot of it still available

And the tanks had brand new track pads and pins on them - and 500 miles is more than enough to take those tanks to the Mexican border from where Littlefield's collection was

And against a bunch of Mexican infantry armed mostly with side arms and rifles a Sherman would do just fine

[Olefin]

Irrelevant... ATGMs are not necessary to kill tanks. ATGMs are a defensive system, tanks are primarily killed by artillery with other tanks being number two. A tank spotted by an FO gets gifted contact fused HE really, really fast.

The WW2 comparison is a non starter too. Training even for Support troops includes how to kill tanks. The “tank terror” of the past is just that, in the past. A WW2 Sherman doesn't have enough armor in the hull sides to resist a 40mm HEDP round and those are used by both sides. Any infantryman is taught to make improvised explosives and Sappers even better. Saddle bag charges, satchel charges, and platter charges will do it and anyone is able to make thermite with brillo pads and aluminum powder from a paint supplier. A WW2 Sherman is up against 1990s Infantrymen with night vision, squad radios, and precise on call artillery support. Any 40mm HEDP or rifle grenade is going to punch right through the side armor of either the hull or turret. Once that happens the penetrating jet will slice right into the exposed ammunition, fuel cells, and crew in this tank with no spall liners or compartmentalized ammunition. Ronson, is the nickname, I believe.

That had more to do with the Arabs very poor training, lack of coordination, little or no Command and Control locally, and lack of concentration of effort. On the Israeli side very superior training and outstanding air ground operation.

Very Well? Source Tank Encyclopedia. M50 (http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/Israel/M50-51_Super-Sherman.php) "But the main test in large scale came with the Six-Day War in 1967. Virtually all M-50 and M-51 were thrown in action in Golan Heights and the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula, confronted with soviet WW2 era T-34/85s (Battle of Abu-Ageila) and SU-100 tanks. However, in 1973, these tanks were again committed in large numbers, despite their obsolescence and due to the desperate nature of the struggle. Losses were heavier since their opponents were better armed. however, it was shown that the 105 mm armed M51s were able to score kills on the T-54/55 and T-62s using HEAT ammunition."

The analogy boils down to …... Good troops with poor equipment will defeat poor troops with good equipment, all other considerations being equal, in any engagement.

- and Littlefield had a lot more than just old Shermans - he had armor from the 1950's and 60's - including two fully operational M60 tanks with live barrels, a Conqueror with a live barrel as well that was fully operational, a M50 modernized Israeli Sherman, one M47 Patton, and a Centurion Mk13 - again all fully operational and all with live barrels - by my count that's at least six tanks that would still be effective on a modern battlefield - especially against a Mexican Army whose best armored vehicles were from that same era - they werent taking on T-80's at the Fulda Gap [/QUOTE] The only ones worth a damn in that paragraph are the two M60s and the M47. Ship the Centurion to Canada in trade for something else. There is no ammo in the supply chain or spare parts for them. Most importantly there is no one trained to operate them or repair them. No place to train on them or instructors with knowledge on them. Give the Sherman to the California Highway Patrol to guard the Governors mansion or the State Treasury.

A tank with no ammunition, no radios, no spare parts, no one to operate it, no one to repair it, and no training available to fix that is a drain on scarce resources.


It is near enough the Hunter's Point Naval Shipyard and the Stanford/Palo Alto/ Menlo park areas to not have faired well at all. Indeed, the people that work or volunteer at the plae are probably dead from strikes on the Naval, Marine, and Air Force facilities all around the Bay.

As to Canon game material, you don't follow all of it, picking and choosing what you agree with and using that.



Armor welding isn't magic. Thermite welding is used in Heavy Equipment too. There is nothing about the facility that isn't available 1000 times over spread out over the State wherever there is a Mine or earth moving contractor. The armor welding your alluding to special knowledge of, corresponds to welding composite armor, the layered steel, titanium, ceramic, depleted uranium, lead, and resins. Something that none of the tanks mentions has as part of its armor, hull, or chassis. Since all of these hull are Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) the worst possible to be behind in modern times that doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but I am following canon - the city of San Francisco is still there per the canon (read Howling Wilderness) - that means that it didnt get nuked out of existence - and Littlefield's collection was a long way from there - there are NO nuke targets anywhere near by - as in NONE - and armor welding is specialized enough that it took welders at BAE quite a while to train and pass testing needed to weld together our M88's - I know - I was the Quality Lead for the M88A2 program for 5 years at York

As for the Centurion Mk13 - you might want to actually look up its specs - it had the same gun that was on the original M1 - meaning that all the ammo it needs is sitting with the 40th ready to go - no need to send it to Canada - all they had to do was load the ammo racks

And all the tanks he restored had working radios - he even bought them straight from the military

Not quite sure what the issue is but Littlefield's Collection is there - as are those mechanics and a huge haul of working armored and other military vehicles - more than enough to give the 40th what it needs to kick the Mexican Army at the least clear back to the mountains north of LA

[Raellus]

If you want to use the Littlefield collection in your campaign, use it. If you don't, don't. As a neutral observer, it seems like this argument has nowhere to go but ugly. I'd prefer not to have to lock this thread, so, everyone, please keep it civil and constructive.

If you're not sure what that means,

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2961

Thanks.

[ArmySGT.]

Sorry but I am following canon - the city of San Francisco is still there per the canon (read Howling Wilderness) - that means that it didnt get nuked out of existence

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Naval_Shipyard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare_Island_Naval_Shipyard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_Island,_San_Francisco

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suisun_Bay

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Molate_Naval_Fuel_Depot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parks_Reserve_Forces_Training_Area

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffett_Federal_Airfield

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Alameda

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Air_Station_Oakland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Livermore_National_Laboratory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concord_Naval_Weapons_Station

That is a short list of the things in or around San Francisco worth hitting with a nuke. There is no reason for the Soviets to have left them alone.

- and Littlefield's collection was a long way from there - there are NO nuke targets anywhere near by - as in NONE - and armor welding is specialized enough that it took welders at BAE quite a while to train and pass testing needed to weld together our M88's - I know - I was the Quality Lead for the M88A2 program for 5 years at York Quite a few nukes if the Soviets are in anyway competent.


As for the Centurion Mk13 - you might want to actually look up its specs - it had the same gun that was on the original M1 - meaning that all the ammo it needs is sitting with the 40th ready to go - no need to send it to Canada - all they had to do was load the ammo racks
http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/coldwar/UK/FV-4200_Centurion

Yes, it has an L7. Who knows how to operate the sights? Who is a British Master Gunner? Not anyone in the 40th... Canada, yes.

It is a BRITISH tank. Meaning, NO Manuals and NO ONE that knows how to operate it. and NO one has any of the speialized metri tools for the engine or other parts. Give it to some one that would be able to use it.

And all the tanks he restored had working radios - he even bought them straight from the military You do understand that radios have to be compatible to talk to each other. By the 90s voice and data encryption is standard across all Branches. Those WW2 radios and even the 50 and 60s radio have at best encrypted single channel, the easiest kind to interept, triangulate, and jam. Let alone their short operational range or that these antiques use vacuum tubes.

Not quite sure what the issue is but Littlefield's Collection is there - as are those mechanics and a huge haul of working armored and other military vehicles - more than enough to give the 40th what it needs to kick the Mexican Army at the least clear back to the mountains north of LA I only have issue with the following things really.

One anything built before say 1965 isn't worth the effort to repair it and send into battled. If any of it was realistially useful in a military, that piee would not be sitting in a museum.

The point I am trying to drive home is LOGISTICS.

No one is taking the Shermans to war as there is no ammunition. No stored, none manufactured, the 75mm and 76mm are obsolete and retired from service. No Depot is going to trot out a crate the just happens to be there. Explosives are carefully maintained as these degrade in storage. After a time, the surplus is destroyed by incineration as the components are unstable.

No 30.06.... phased out in the 1950 and even the links are a different style.

the M60s, the M47, those work because in some fashion or another those are in the Supply. Parts are made for those. Usually for Allies, but the M60 AVLB is in use at the time. They work because they use current ammunition and current radios work in them on current mounts. Most importantly they work because there is trained people to use them and keep them running at the unit level.

You don't waste time and resources on things you cannot field and support at the user level. Who ares if some guy at Portola could fix the carburetor on the wonky Sherman.... the mechanic right there is L.A. cannot.

Lastly, my most important point... You don't send soldiers out to die. You send soldiers out to win those battles, not hamstringing them with obsolete machines that will get them killed. Those WW2 tanks don't have the armor to protect those men from the weakest of anti armor weapons or methods of the 1990s.

Take it from someone that has been shot at in an unarmored M1025 and had an uparmored M1114 blown out from under him by an IED. I appreciate the difference.

[Olefin]

the city is there ArmySgt whether you like it or not - the Soviets didnt hit every single target - thats why some areas got hit and others didnt - it wasnt an all out strike hitting every military target there was - and I dont think they would mention in Howling Wilderness how the city government was still in existence fi they city had been hit with a bunch of nukes

Plus look at where the Littlefield Collection is - i.e. its nowhere near San Francisco or any nuclear target - they could have hit San Francisco with a 25 megaton ground pounder and it would still be there

And Littlefield had the manuals for the tanks - so thus whoever gets the tanks gets the manuals - which since they are British and thus in English they can read pretty easily - so you get a tank with 105mm cannon with plentiful ammo since the 40th has it in stock - not a bad little pick up

[Olefin]

As for radios - well thats not a problem since they have tanks and other vehicles they can get them out of - and if it means that the US Army gets some new tanks I think they wouldnt have much trouble jury rigging a radio to get it to work inside their new tank - i.e. per canon the US Army is accepting anything with armor and a gun as a tank

I would say two Shermans, a Centurion Mk13, and a couple of M60's would definitely qualify as such

As for the specialized metric equipment - he was rebuilding British, German and other equipment - I have a feeling if he rebuilt them from the ground up that he has a full selection of metric tools and other items to support the tank - you really need to read up on what he had there - you keep equating this with a guy working on tanks in his spare time or some truck repair yard - not even close to the capabilities of what he had there - and he was a lot more than just some mechanic - he took tanks that were absolute wrecks and rebuilt them to as delivered condition - in some cases to better than new condition - and considering the state of equipment by early 2001 his tanks were probably in better condition than what the army had

As for ammo - you dont have tanks with live barrels and not have anything to fire out of them - most likely he had ammo on hand as well - he paid the fee for keeping the barrel live - not much use in that if you dont have anything to fire from it

And by the way the Collection was at least 40 miles away from any target you mentioned on your list - meaning that it wasnt nuked.

[mpipes]

Another canon vs non-canon thing.

Dudes, if you want things bad enough and the Mexicans so weak the Littleton collection can run roughshod over them, have at it. If you want things not quite so bad and the Mexicans so strong they can hand troops using Littletons collection their heads on a platter, then fine.

I dropped a whole battalion worth of WWII vintage vehicles in the SF area in my campaign. MGM had commissioned replicas and gathered original T34s, Panthers, Tigers, Shermans and a gaggle of light armor for a planned WWII epic, and they got put into service. Did they kick the Mexicans back to the border; no. But it added some fun flavor to the game.

As I have said before, use canon as a faithful Bible or as an inspirational guide. The central important thing....Littleton had an amazing collection of a battalion worth of armored vehicles and the expertise to keep them operational. The collection was far out of the way and WOULD have survived even the most full scale nuclear attack of the Soviets. There simply was nothing worth hitting using a nuke within 40 or so miles. If you are 10 miles from ground zero, unless its a 25-megaton, you're relatively safe. That's why, per canon, Barksdale AFB must be fully operational. Shreveport is simply too far away for a 250 kt detonation to damage the base. Contrary to popular belief, there NEVER were enough nukes to destroy everything. The world (even just the US) is simply too big for you to cover; no matter the size of the bomb, blast effects still have a finite reach. Fallout will be a problem, but even people at Hiroshima (16kt yield) survived within about 200 meters of ground zero and lived for years afterward.

And oh yes. they do keep obsolete stuff just lying around - the Springfield 1884s show that. Up till Clinton got a bug up his ass and started having the military scrapping things, there were thousands of M1 rifles and carbines in the warehouses. You can still get 30-06 ammo from CMP. We even had a couple of 105mm AAA guns from the 50s in a hanger in New Orleans with the 926th TFW as I recall, and their were M47s and M60A2s in the POMCUS warehouses in Europe in 1993.

[Olefin]

Another canon vs non-canon thing.

Dudes, if you want things bad enough and the Mexicans so weak the Littleton collection can run roughshod over them, have at it. If you want things not quite so bad and the Mexicans so strong they can hand troops using Littletons collection their heads on a platter, then fine.

I dropped a whole battalion worth of WWII vintage vehicles in the SF area in my campaign. MGM had commissioned replicas and gathered original T34s, Panthers, Tigers, Shermans and a gaggle of light armor for a planned WWII epic, and they got put into service. Did they kick the Mexicans back to the border; no. But it added some fun flavor to the game.

As I have said before, use canon as a faithful Bible or as an inspirational guide. The central important thing....Littleton had an amazing collection of a battalion worth of armored vehicles and the expertise to keep them operational. The collection was far out of the way and WOULD have survived even the most full scale nuclear attack of the Soviets. There simply was nothing worth hitting using a nuke within 40 or so miles. If you are 10 miles from ground zero, unless its a 25-megaton, you're relatively safe. That's why, per canon, Barksdale AFB must be fully operational. Shreveport is simply too far away for a 250 kt detonation to damage the base. Contrary to popular belief, there NEVER were enough nukes to destroy everything. The world (even just the US) is simply too big for you to cover; no matter the size of the bomb, blast effects still have a finite reach. Fallout will be a problem, but even people at Hiroshima (16kt yield) survived within about 200 meters of ground zero and lived for years afterward.

And oh yes. they do keep obsolete stuff just lying around - the Springfield 1884s show that. Up till Clinton got a bug up his ass and started having the military scrapping things, there were thousands of M1 rifles and carbines in the warehouses. You can still get 30-06 ammo from CMP. We even had a couple of 105mm AAA guns from the 50s in a hanger in New Orleans with the 926th TFW as I recall, and their were M47s and M60A2s in the POMCUS warehouses in Europe in 1993.

Always amazed me at stuff that was squirreled away here and there that had been forgotten - worked with people who told me stories about finding things all the times at Depots that were from WWII and the 50's that supposedly had all been scrapped or disposed of long before. We had companies that worked with us at BAE that specialized in getting us spare parts for the M109's and M88's that literally had been sitting in boxes for thirty and forty years.

As for ammo - well obviously someone is still making it or its still available- or you wouldnt have adds like this -

DriveTanks, located on the World Renowned Ox Ranch, is the only location in the world where you can drive and shoot fully functional tanks, artillery, machine guns, and other weapons of war. They have a fully functional Sherman tank that fires live rounds - meaning they had to get the ammo from somewhere.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'd like to add three things to think about, one that is very much "it all depends on where it was manufactured"-kind of thing, the second that is a little bit more relevant and the third is all about how you view the Littlefield collection in your own gameworld.

.30-06 Linked Ammunition:
There were still a number of countries using this on particular armoured vehicles. For example, the Australian M113 APCs were fitted with the Cadillac Gage T50 turret that typically housed either a combo of M2 and M1919 MGs or a pair of M1919 MGs. The M1919s were still .30-06 and are still being used on those M113 family vehicles that haven't been updated to the Australian AS4 standard.
The point being while we manufacture the majority of our own smallarms ammo, we still bought linked .30-06 from the US at times. The implication being that someone in the US is still making it however where that facility is, I have no idea. It could just as easily be in any city that was on the Soviet target list for all I know.

The Centurion Tank:
The "Cent" was built to Imperial measurements. I vaguely recall that the British didn't use the Metric system for armoured vehicles until the 1970s e.g. Scorpion family, AT105 Saxon and so on, although I am not actually certain of the exact timing although it was well after the building of the Centurion. I think the Chieftain was also built to Imperial measurements as well.

The Littlefield Collection:
Littlefield had a tendancy to collect anything that might be useful to refurbishing and rebuilding so even if the parts collection isn't worth the effort, the tools and sundry supplies (including the POL stores he had) would probably be very tempting and something I can imagine the military in the area would like to secure for their own use and/or to keep it out of anyone else's hands.

Olefin and I have had our disagreements about various things but in this instance I agree with him that the Littlefield Collection is worthwhile.
I very much understand the argument that pre-1970s vehicles are probably more trouble than they are worth and I do tend to agree with it and of course, everything depends on how the GM wants to build the gameworld.

However I do think that, even disregarding the vehicles, the ancillary items in Littlefield's museum would be worth recovering. The camouflage nets, jerrycans, vehicle carried tools (shovels, axes and so on), mechanics tools, basic items like nuts & bolts, steel etc. etc., paints and POL stores alone would be worth the effort of securing the facility.

[mpipes]

And don't forget...he is probably alive along with his mechanics.

[WallShadow]

And don't forget...he is probably alive along with his mechanics.
And rich enough to have made some provision for a potential outbreak of war.

[Olefin]

And rich enough to have made some provision for a potential outbreak of war.

Considering the money he had and the connections he had you know he spent 1995-1997 preparing for what was coming - and getting ready to defend his collection against all comers

[pmulcahy11b]

I once GMed a Brigade-sized unit raised after the TDM; players were drafted into the US Army, but told to bring their own weapons if they had any, ammunition if they had any, food, personal gear, and personal effects. Once they got to the mobilization point, they were issued uniforms and if necessary small arms, rocket launchers, food and personal effects, and vehicles. They they were used as a "hit team" by MilGov for certain special missions.

Needless to say, I put this campaign premise together primarily to allow players to equip their PCs in any way they chose, to the point of exotic weaponry and gear. The players could also be developed in any way they chose, without regard to their being veterans (though they did survive TDM and the chaos afterward). The campaign's starting date was late 2001, and it took place in the US under MilGov auspices.

[ArmySGT.]

Oh I bet there is all kinds of stuff still in army depots - and considering Littlefield's resources (and that fact that the tanks had live barrels) I can bet that he had at least some live shells to go with them - and by 2001 even a couple of dozen shells a piece isnt bad considering that outside of vehicles issued to parties for starting campaigns you dont see many out there with full ammo loads (unless they are only armed with machine guns or very common rounds like for the M1 that they made untold numbers of shells for)

and yes having an adventure to find ammo stored away in an old depot sounds like a very good idea indeed

and there is even a great place to do so in CA - i.e. the Sierra Army Depot in Herlong, CA


The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

[ArmySGT.]

The main thing I have as a concern about WWII-early Cold War vehicles is this: maintenance. Is it worth the trouble? What would be more readily available replacement parts for existing vehicles for the division or this stuff?

Bluntly, NO.

It takes months to train people, whether that is a tanker or a mechanic.

That and the WW2 stuff is over matched by the Mexican Infantry fighting vehicles.

The hull front has 51mm of armor and the sides have 38mm.

The 20mmx139mm RH202 on the Mexican IFVs defeats 55m with older DM43 AP-i ammo and 60mm DM63 APDS, even newer defeats more than 70mm of rolled homogeneous armor (RHA) the cast steel stuff before the 1970s composites entered the scene.

Worse for the Sherman. It has a day only range finder and no weapons stabilization.

Anything the Mexians have has 2 axis weapon stabilization, passive IR at a minimum, and a laser range finder. The IFV would be making hits of the Sherman while moving and the Sherman has to stop for the gunner to even try.

20mm is the smallest gun, there is a jump up to 25mm on the DN1, and the ERC - 90 has a 90mm with HEAT ammunition. They have all the same advantages over the Sherman too.

This is without the Infantry dismounted using their 40mm grenade launchers to smoke and blind the Sherman or HEPD (50mm penetration) to kill it. The units Carl Gustaf 84mm recoilless Rifles, or Unit M40A1 106mm Recoilless rifles. All the while with a Forward Observer bringing down 105mm artillery shells that will blast through a Sherman's 25mm of roof armor.

This is important due to the Shermans all in the hull design. There is no anti spall liner, armored munitions compartment, or even separation from the fuel. A hull penetration means fire and probably an ammunition detonation.

The M8 has even less armor and the same handicaps.

The stuff in the museum that is late 60s and 70s is the best option. American so there is ammunition, parts, and most importantly people who would have some training to use it. A tank is a big paper weight without a trained crew. Training for just a simple tanker private, whose first job is loader takes weeks at Ft Knox. An experienced Tank Commander is years in the making on something familiar and with frequent drill.

Then you run into problems like the radios are not able to work with the modern 80s and 90s radios.

[Olefin]

The Federal government doesn't even allow the National Guard to store available ammunition above 7.62N.

The State of California sure isnt going to let a civilian have hundreds of rounds of tank or artillery ammunition.

Anything over .50 BMG is regulated by the ATF and has to be purchased as a Destructive Device. Every single one of them on a Form 1 with stamp or it is Federal prison time for person in possession.

The required by Federal Law safeguards alone are cost prohibitive and failing to secure them properly is fines and possible jail too.

To say that Littlefield would have more than props or training/practice munitions is a huge stretch.

The man died of cancer.... There is no reason for that to be different in an alternate timeline with no different medical institutions.

And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

https://3gtactical.com/nfa/nfa-state-restrictions

I know its hard to believe but they are - you can own anything in California - all you need to do is have the license and pay the fee- and state that you will not fire the rounds or the destructive device

which means he could have as much live ammo as he wanted to - and I highly doubt by April/May of 2001 that anyone would be coming to arrest him for having live ammo or firing it - especially since the state had been invaded by the Mexicans

11 CCR 4128
(a) Except as provided in sections 30900 through 30945, 31050, 31055, and 31100 of the Penal Code, no person shall possess, transport, or sell any dangerous weapon in this state unless he/she has been granted a license and/or permit pursuant to these regulations.
(b) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to establish good cause for such license or permit and that such license or permit would not endanger the public safety.
(c) To establish good cause, an applicant must provide the DOJ with clear and convincing evidence that there is a bona fide market or public necessity for the issuance of a dangerous weapons license or permit and that the applicant can satisfy that need without endangering public safety. Except as provided by Penal Code section 33300, good causes recognized by the DOJ to establish a bona fide necessity for issuance of dangerous weapons licenses or permits include the following:
(4) Possession for the purpose of maintaining a collection of destructive devices as defined in Penal Code section 16460 but such possession shall not be allowed for short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, machineguns or assault weapons.
(d) No license or permit shall be issued to any applicant who fails to comply with local zoning restrictions or local fire-protective services regulations or ordinances.
(e) The DOJ shall provide a notice of each license or permit issued to the Chief of Police or Sheriff having jurisdiction over the licensee or permittee's location. Copies of outstanding licenses and permits shall be provided to the Chief or Sheriff of jurisdiction upon request.

11 CCR 4135
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for collecting destructive devices includes the following:
(1) A written statement from applicant certifying that he is a bona fide collector of destructive devices. The statement must identify the weapons or ordnance of interest to the collector and an estimate of the intended size of the collection.
(2) A written statement from applicant certifying that the weapon or ordinance will not be fired or discharged.

[mpipes]

And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.

[Olefin]

and what is the big problem with radios - remove the radio from a non-operational vehicle - install into your M60A1, M60A2 or Centurion Mk13 - fill with shells from US Army depot - go out and kick ass - sounds simple to me - and considering we are talking V1 here there would still be rounds in storage for tanks like the M47 as well

[StainlessSteelCynic]

There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.

[ArmySGT.]

There is a problem with trying to fit more modern radios into the older vehicles and it's a real pain in the rear - electrical system & fittings.
To fit a more modern radio into the older vehicle you might very well have to replace all the electrical/power system that would be used by the radio. That's even before we start talking about compatible fittings to connect to the power supply and antenna.

It would be far easier to take infantry backpack radios and stick the antenna out the hatch... with all the problems that gives when under fire.

Exactly. Power supply, mounts, fittings, voltage, amperage, antenna.

It is a whole system. The radio mount isn't just a frame. Every goes through the mount and then the radio. Cables, antennas, even the Hertz from the power supply has to be compatible or it does not work.

[ArmySGT.]

And he had the bucks to set up his production if he was so inclined!

Of note, AP rounds would not have cost anything to register.

While we are straying a bit of the subject, there are hundreds of muzzle loading cannons owned by collectors all over the US. Know a guy that uses coke cans filled with cement to shoot in his 12 pounder. Perfectly legal to own and no requirement to register with ATF. Same for Gatling guns.

AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production? that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.

[ArmySGT.]

And Littlefield had tanks with live barrels - and he didnt die from cancer till long after the V1 and V2 timeline - he died in January of 2009 after a decade long battle with colon cancer - would he be sick as hell yes - but in April of 2001 he would be alive -

And who said anything about hundreds of rounds of tank ammo - hell the US Army by April of 2001 would be lucky to have hundreds of rounds of tank ammo

Also you can buy and sell live main gun tanks rounds in the US - all you have to do is register it as a destructive device and pay the $200 transfer tax for every round of ammunition being sold to you. Littlefield was a multi-millionaire - he could easily pay that tax. Again the law states that you need a separate NFA title II tax stamp for each machine gun and cannon, and a permit for each explosive shell (explosive shell for the cannon). Now I can see why regular people would think that tax is cost prohibitive - but do the math - 200 main gun rounds at 200 bucks per round comes out to 40,000 bucks - i.e. enough rounds for the tanks he had with live barrels to fill their ammo racks - which for Littlefield would have been chump change - we arent talking about going to war for years here

And ArmySgt tank rounds are completely and totally LEGAL in the state of California - even today in 2018 let alone back in the 1990's

The State of California and the Federal government would not allow that many rounds in the possession of a private citizen.


The State and the Federal do not have to approve sale.

Millionaires don't stay millionaires spending their money.

Then there is the costs for live ammunition in calibers not produced any longer or quality and safety of them either.

[Olefin]

He spent money like crazy on his collection - thats a matter of public record - it was his love and joy. Basically money was no object.

And the Feds and the State allow that kind of purchase all the time - all you need is the money to pay for the rounds, a safe place to keep them and in CA a promise not to fire them - thats it.

There are multiple places in the US that you can fire a tank gun with real live tank rounds - rounds that were bought legally and fired legally.

As for the ammo being out of production - the only tanks that would be a real issue would be the Conqueror and the M103 - and if there are live rounds they would be in CA - because the last operator of the gun that fired that ammo was the USMC and they had that ammo cached in Barstow - they both fired the same ammo. The US had lots of 90mm ammo still in storage for the M47 tank. And a lot of the other vehicles just needed to install a 50 and they were fully operational.

As for operating a tank with the radio antenna sticking out of the hatch - that can be done if it has to be done. Frankly by 2001 the last thing the US Army would be turning down getting an operational tank for would be a radio that doesnt work - a jury rig is a hell of a lot better than no tank.

And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that

[Enfield]

I find the Littlefield idea interesting story wise, and I'll see how I use it.

As far as the 40th ID: I think that it makes more sense for the brigade that is available to be the main body aound which reservists are trained, equipped and deployed. My understanding is that reservists in Calilfornia and Oregon would be available, and so while the normal processes might face a lot of challenges, I think it is reasonable that a division can b formed around reserve units.

The division has considerable support in the form of logistics, tansport, signals and engineers to make this possible.

Because of this I'm going to cut down somewhat on armoured vehicles to reflect losses of fuel and parts, and halve the number of APCs, mortar carriers, etc. I think for artillery and aviation I will simply restict their use, and have their use controlled at high levels of command.

[mpipes]

AP rounds still do. It is a shell, round with case..

Form 1 with a $200 attached, then wait for Federal approval from the ATF. Sale and transfer can still be blocked by the State.

Has to be stored secure in a shelter that is fire proof.

Production? that is thousands of dollars in fees to get the explosive licenses and manufacturing licenses for a hobby.

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

I'm pretty certain that what he was referring to was the acquisition of these rounds before the T2k war when the US government was still in place and not during/after the war.

[Olefin]

I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance

[Raellus]

Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful? If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over? Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead?

[Enfield]

I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance

How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though?

[Olefin]

for 50 cal there would be lots of ammo - it was very common - ditto 90mm ammo for the M47 or ammo for the M60 or the Centurion that had the same gun as the M1 - and by that I mean more than enough ammo to fill their racks at least once

the big question is the M103 and the Conqueror - they both used the same cannon - but if there is anywhere that might have ammo its actually CA - the last group to operate the M103 were the USMC and they grouped about half of what they had at Barstow along with the ammo - so if there are any shells still sitting in a depot they would be at Barstow in the USMC warehouses - they might need new propellant charges after that long in storage but any solid shot still in storage should work just fine

as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there

[rcaf_777]

How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though?

While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

[ArmySGT.]

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997? ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.

[ArmySGT.]

And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that

The M728 CEV
(http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/cevm728.html) is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).

[ArmySGT.]

Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful? If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over? Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead?

Even the State itself........ have to protect the Governor, Capitol, and the Treasury. That is where I would see the State drawing off all the wheeled APCs.

Wheeled APCs have parts commonality with 2.5ton and 5ton trucks with commercial engines or transmissions.

[ArmySGT.]

as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there

The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.

[ArmySGT.]

While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

it is marginally popular in some other firearms as pest control and personal protection..... Similar effects to a .357 magnum.

People complain about the FMJ, but gush about the HP ammo. I missed my opportunity to get a carbine in 2007 for $150 and sort of regret it.

[DocFirefly]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

[Olefin]

The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.

And you have non-functioning computers and a country under nuclear attack during WWIII - meaning those people have a lot more on their hands than remembering stuff about a bunch of tanks in the middle of nowhere - I know something about how bureaucracy's work - and with the break down of communications and computers he and his tanks would be forgotten pretty quickly

about the only possible people who might remember his tanks would be people who had actually seen his collection before the war - which back then would be a relatively small group of people - it really wasnt famous yet - at most you are talking a handful of people who might remember what he has if at all

and keep in mind that CA has the second biggest collection of registered destructive devices that there is in the country which makes it even more likely that he gets forgotten or overlooked

especially with the combined punch of what happened to Los Angeles and then the Mexican invasion

[Olefin]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

I could see that for sure - look at Kenya and the volunteer unit of WWII re-enactors and vehicle collectors that got sent there - given that unit being deployed by MilGov I have a feeling they would welcome Littlefield's 1st Volunteers or whatever you might want to call them with open arms - or make an arrangement with him to help guard his collection in exchange for getting their vehicles repaired and put back into functional status

Most likely that shop of his is the only functional tank repair facility left in the whole state - complete with tools, welding equipment, you name it all specifically designed to repair and fix military equipment - this isnt a truck shop we are talking about - these are men and equipment that could take a rusting piece of junk and turn it back into a functional tank

[Olefin]

Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.

Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure

[ArmySGT.]

Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure

After the War begins?

The stresses credibility even further. The World is a war. International Banks are not allowed to transfer funds between hostiles. The undersea cables are cut or compromised. Economies are under war provisions and controls. International travel is strangled to nothing, if there was even fuels to move planes or ships.

I will accept a lot of things if there is reasonable and plausible explanations for their existence. While I would put some, but very little of the Littlefield Collection into a game, any reasonable adult with any military training would take only what really would be effective and not just get good troops killed using the thing.

The 1970s (and newer) American armor sure. The WW2 not at all.
The items that are not American and you have an Ally, ship it to them. The Brit tanks would be better given to Canada or shipped to Allies in Korea for that matter.

Equipment has to be maintained and operated by troops well trained in the use and maintenance of that equipment or it is just a liability not an asset.

[ArmySGT.]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies?
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

Two men can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

You're talking in the hundreds of persons and the subversion of may State and Federal Laws that go with long prison terms for offenders.

Problem of all..........This is California.

Only half jokingly called, the Peoples Republic of California any longer.

Even making ammunition has problems....... The gun sights are calibrated to specific and standard shells with known properties. If you tried to make an APFSDS round for say a 37mm gun on an M5, if the modern propellant didn't wreck the breach, then the sights wouldn't work with the higher velocity ammunition.

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that)

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop

Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line - "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army.

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico.

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon.

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers.

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had.

[Raellus]

The M728 CEV
(http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/cevm728.html) is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

[Raellus]

Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though.

Protecting the State Treasury convoy as it moves the gold to Idaho or the Governors mansion from angry residents. Not against trained soldiers supported by a combined arms force with its own armor and artillery.

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

[Olefin]

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

100% correct Raellus - I am not saying that it would be used in 1998 to stop the invasion - for one back then the 40th would have been at full strength and they would have been like who cares about some old tanks we have plenty - which is definitely not the case by April 2001

this is what you use in 2001 with no other armor available to try to push the now weakened Mexican forces, whose logistics are completely shot and whose armor, whatever is left, is worn out and low on ammo - and long after just about every anti-tank weapon they have is gone - thats when Littlefield's Collection suddenly becomes a game changer - not during the actual invasion itself in 1998

and let me add that what I mean by this statement - "What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers. Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had." is what they had left after the invasion got stopped in their tracks and both sides were exhausted - not to try to use it to take on full power fresh invasion forces

[Olefin]

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

and the canon itself even remarks that its gotten so bad that they are using the M728 as a combat tank - and I quote from page 45 of the US Army Vehicle Guide - " This particular vehicle (an M728 that is with the 40th in the spring of 2000 in CA), however, has been pressed into service as a surrogate tank. (By 2000 virtually anything with armor and a gun was being used by armored units in the United States as a tank)"

Thus they arent using it as an engineering vehicle - they are using it to fight other tanks. As such I would much rather have a real tank that was really designed to fight other tanks with a real gun that fires real AP shells instead of having to use a vehicle with a demo gun as a tank.

[mpipes]

GOOD LORD.

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can.

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"?

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight.

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs. But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns.

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySgt - I highly doubt anyone really cares much about state and federal laws after the TDM at all - no one is paying taxes, no one is paying attention to gun laws anymore - thats why LA is completely lawless by 2001 (getting massively nuked and no more water and electricity probably has something to do with that) Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not? When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000? When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How?

and I highly doubt that the Marines and Army made sure that every shell and weapon was accounted for as they were getting overrun by the Mexican invasion The someone was demoted or shot for gross incompetent. SOP is to destroy supplies and munitions to prevent capture by enemy forces by any means.

FYI - you can make shells if you have the specs and the drawings - per the canon there are local machine shops making mortar rounds and such already by 2001 - and I have a feeling most of what they are making would be good old fashioned HE and solid shot

Mighty big IF. Those are proprietary information. Restricted by the DoD and State Department. I suppose WW1 fuzes are possible, I have a whole book of those in .pdf.

Modern radar VT takes transistors, though. Fuze Super quick, if you have the chemists to make the explosives for the fuse. The fuzes are the bottle neck in that operation. About 1000 variables to make that a go or a failure either way. What it is though is VERY manpower intensive and machine time intensive to make shells start to finish beginning with a foundry. So now they have a foundry, dozens of lathes with a head stock greater than 14 inches, and knee mill, horizontal mills, and broaching machines will space too hold stock greater than 12 inches........ OK. Now they need to find power, food, water, medicines, for a few hundred specialized trades and support like cooks.

See how far you have to streth things to get one obsolete tank into battle? Why it is wasteful of resources?

if he has the ability to make parts from the drawings and plans that he has I have a feeling he can make shells as well - given that his resources and skilled machinists that he had are a lot better than your average local machine shop Not enough by far to divert them to other things, see above.



Oh and dont make me laugh that hard with this line – "Would the 1940s, 50s, and 60s equipment have a use somewhere? Yes. Not as a front line unit fighting trained soldiers and professionals like the Mexican Armed Forces though."
Be polite. Going down this road undercuts any legitimate argument you might have.

I get it though. How dare those little brown peasants stand up to Americans. Don't they know their place? This is how you sound, right now.

The Mexican Army of the V1 and V2.2 timeline is a combination of both a volunteer and conscript army. So is the U.S.; what is your point?

Their officers were good but their NCO's werent - at least not in the mid-90's - that changed after the Chiapas revolt. Their Marines and Paras were every bit as professional as our guys are. However their army at the time of the invasion in the main was not trained or equipped for any type of land war. They were mostly trained to deal with disasters and service and security work inside Mexico. Your confusing the paramilitary police forces with the regular army. There is a distinction. Mexico doesn't have anything like Posse Commitatus, and that blurs things from a U.S. Point of view.

Thus their army was definitely not trained for the invasion and combat against the US Army or trained to take on insurgents that were decently armed in any way. And their equipment was not up to the standard it is today - they only succeeded because even though their armor was crap and they didnt have a lot of it they at least had some - and we didnt. Thats why the advance into CA basically came to an end when they hit the guys from the 40th around Bakersfield as they finally got into that area from Oregon. Let's see. Regular Mexican forces with an intact supply chain, excellent human intelligence, and their organic equipment on which they have trained crews, mechanic, and ordnance men are thwarted by an under strength U.S. Division without supply, adequate training, and unfamiliar equipment. The mental gymnastics alone are exhausting for this kind of forced narrative. The Mexicans intact supply lines are ¼ that of the 40ths to just begin.

What they had was mostly 50's to 60's vintage and designs with a small amount of more modern French equipment - heck they were still using Stuart tanks and WWII half tracks in their army and Toyota trucks as troop carriers. You did note that the Mexican Army is atually training on those.. They have trained crews, mechanic, and new ordnance. The M5 and M6 guns were replaced with 20x139mm RH202 auto cannons. They have spare parts in abundance. Even the M3s have a 20mm on top. The DNX fighting vehicles are in service too as are the MEX-1s. There using light armored troop carriers to move troops..... All supported in Combined Arms by AT teams with the VBLs (Milan) and infantry with RPG-7s, M40a1s, and Carl Gustafs. Immediate support from the 75mm M8s and 105mm towed on call.

You don't need tanks to kill tanks. There is a hundred other ways starting with an artillery barrage for one.

Toe to Toe with a U.S. Division fully equipped and trained; I wouldn't give them a chance in hell. By this time in the Canon time lines the U.S. Divisions were sent overseas to Europe, the Middle East, Africa, and Korea. The Mexican trained and equipped force is up against green, partially trained conscripts, with little new or obsolete equipment.

Meaning that the Littlefield tanks would have been either even or a match for most of what they had. When the other guys have the training, experience, and logistics it isn't and even fight at all. The Mexicans are fighting in one front with no one behind them, with outside support from Cuba, then a good deal of their factories and farms are intact. The Mexicans seem to be holding the water from the Colorado river too.

[ArmySGT.]

It really depends on how you define a tank. By WWII definitions, you're describing an assault gun. AFAIK, during the Cold War both NATO and the Soviet Union defined tanks as tracked AFVs with high-caliber main guns and rotating turrets, used primarily as an offensive weapon and/or against other tanks. By that definition, is the M728 a tank? It meets most of the criteria, but I doubt that an M728 would be used offensively against enemy armor, except in extremis.

Granted.

Only a fool would send in that M728 alone as a tank anyway. Without infantry and artillery it would be dead fast. The 165mm gun might do enough blast damage to light armor to make a kill with a hit. I don't think the optics or the sights are up to the challenge though.

I wouldn't be using it as a tank. I would be using it for the intended purpose of a breacher to support leg infantry with all the protection I might possibly pile on. It is a specialist vehicle with a specialist task, trying to use it as an MBT is foolish and wasteful with the probable outcome being a dead M728 and four dead men.

[ArmySGT.]

For whatever it's worth, I agree with you on these points. I don't know for sure, but I think the pro-Littlefield folks are proposing that his collection could be useful against Mexican follow-on troops, after the upper-echelon, mechanized spearheads have been substantially weakened, towards the end of their long drive into NorCal, not during the initial breakthrough battles. That, to me, seems entirely feasible/reasonable.

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

[Raellus]

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000? If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked? Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy?

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true? Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

[Raellus]

The situation in 2001 favors the Mexican Government and Armed Forces.

Their fighting on one broad front with no one, but allies, behind them. They should still be able to land raids with their Marines up and down the U.S. west coast further tying up U.S. forces and preventing those from grouping in real strength.

The Mexican people are a part of the U.S. population. Those people live and work at all levels of society, not just as peons for whites the like cheap illegal labor. That is a huge human intelligence gathering network all reporting on U.S. Forces movement, strength, and supply. What would the Maquis be in spanish?

The Mexicans have obsolete equipment, yes. The huge difference is that they train on this gear and have a supply chain for it. A badly damaged M3A1 can be trucked back to Mexico on a lowboy and repaired. By this time the M8 Greyhounds have 20MMs, and everything has diesel engines and modern radios.

The Mexican shouldn't even be starving. They have the water from controlling the Colorado and American rivers. Though they do need to do something about no imports of wheat or corn from the U.S. There is more money in growing food than drugs so that is a problem that takes care of itself.

Mexians have fuel from their own fields and supply from friends like Guatemala and Venezuela.

The U.S. Monroe doctrine has rightfully made for anger and mistrust from the Latin American countries. Would they reinforce Mexico with the M3s, M4s, and M8s given to them? I don't know.

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces.

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory.

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own.

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with).

[ArmySGT.]

GOOD LORD. Be polite. I am. Though I willingly admit to a level in bluntness in my replies. I am neither patient or willing to spend unnecessary time on padding things for adults. In real life or online. Still, be polite and argue your case, as I have done.

If you are looking to canon, "Howling Wilderness" makes the US look just a step away from Mad Max. Littleton's collection intact in that environment makes for a major chunk of military power within the vicinity. The light Mexican armor is vulnerable to everything he has, and he WILL have the ammo for the guns, even if he has to bribe military sources to get them. The necessary machine shops and other resources are available to get a local production line up and running, and you cannot tell me that the man who pretty much singlehandedly assembled a collection of over 200 military armor vehicles can't figure out how to make ammo. Its like trying to tell Colt or Ruger he has guns but no ammo...big deal....he'll make the damn ammo if for no other reason than the simple fact he knows the people that can. That is a lot of “Ifs, Maybes, Shoulds, and Coulds”.

That would have to be built before the war, employ several hundred people to be efficient, and costs thousands in fees for licenses. I suppose that a very low rate of hand made artisanal mortar and artillery shells would be turned out by a garage shot at a rate of ten or so a week.

Tank ammunition is orders of magnitude more difficult. It has to be precisely aimed, fly true, and penetrate. That means things like the powder charge in the casing has to be to a standard or the tanks gun sights are near useless.

And the radio doesn't work. WHO THE HELL CARES!!! ITS A BLIPPING TANK!! Find a working CB and figure it out if you have too. Its a tank with a working main gun!!! And probably a machinegun as well. Are you really going to whine "the radio doesn't work"? Hmmm, . Yes, the radios have to work for the tank to be effective. The tank has to work with Infantry in xlose support or it will be over run and killed. The Company and Battalion commanders have to be able to talk to the xrew to send them orders. The crew needs to be able to call for fuel or other supplies.

A tank doesn't just drive forward killing everything in front of it. A tank is part of a team, called combined arms. Hans Guderian is the progenitor of that concept and it is U.S. Army doctrine.

A tank without a radio is a pillbox more or less. Read some Combined Arms doctrine for a better explanation of what I just said.

Also, most museums from what I understand have fully functional military equipment. They can register the weapons on a Form 10. Not sure Littleton had that, but everything in the D-Day museum in New Orleans works. I helped them get a few full autos, and ALL the machineguns are live. Even unregistered machineguns can be registered by a museum. One of the MP-44s (or MG.42--forgotten which) on display was captured by a GI and never registered in the amnesty, but the museum did register it when donated. Totally legal. I think the F-4J at one of the Dallas museums is fully operational; right down to the radar and fire control systems. The only thing I understand that was removed was the ECM gear. The MiG-17's guns at the same place are intact as well as the fire controls and radar gunsight. I don't know what you meant here. That museums have functional weapons? Yes, given. What else did you mean?

And AP rounds, last I checked, DO NOT come under ATF's definition of an explosive requiring registration. Propulsive gunpowder was expressly excluded by Congress. Now if you make a bomb with gunpowder, then you are in violation. But if you load ammo, even main-gun tank ammo, the propulsive charge in the case does not qualify as an explosive bomb under the law. So you can have AP rounds without a tax. As a good example, 37mm smoke grenades ARE NOT registered with ATF. 40mm HE on the other hand must be registered - even police agency issue. Tear gas rounds; not registered either. The key distinction; HE shells containing explosives are legally bombs. AP rounds do not contain explosives and do not qualify as bombs.


But regardless, after TDM, ATF ain't going to care. The Federals are going to be concerned about trying to keep some degree of order, and rich folks making tank rounds or Jim Bob converting ARs to full auto for the local militia just are not going to be a concern. The people rioting two towns over because there is no food as well as trying to keep locales from hoarding all the food are going to be the main concerns. The food riots, power, and riminal militias would be a problem on the American side.

Still in bombed, nuked, diseased, starving, San Fransisco in 2000 where did all these tradesmen xome from and what should they be doing that would right the country versus making marginally effective ammunition for obsolete and likely to be destroyed equipment?

What a waste! If that xan be done then it is better to get the infrastructure rebuilt than make 75mm or 37mm AP solid shot.

Alright. I was probably wrong about AP in a fixed case. To produce that though would have to all be setup before the war. Not that any one uses AP solid shot (bore size) except in auto cannons anymore.

[ArmySGT.]

I feel that there is middle ground here, but that some people just aren't interested in finding it together.

I think that it would be helpful to define our parameters here. May I assume that we are all discussing Twilight 2000? If so, then it would probably help to have a common point of reference. I propose that we use canon.

According to canon, is San Francisco nuked? Are there any canonical targets close enough to the Littlefield Collection to put it in jeopardy?

IIRC, canon is also clear on how far the Mexican Army was able to advance, and what U.S. territory it occupied up to c.2001.

IMO, the constructive approach would be to figure out ways, collaboratively, to reconcile canon with real world exigencies. In other words, how can we tweak things, as little as possible, so that the canon rings true? Or, we can just argue back and forth, mostly just repeating ourselves, and end up getting frustrated and chippy with one another. I propose we pursue the former course.

Anyone with all of that. Anyone have on hand, ready to make, one large, and published by GDW only,set of reference material that is specific to U.S. versus Mexico?

I agree. I do. I haven't argued for Canon. I have worked to point out where canon is not plausible or makes any sense given the capabilities and training of the forces (fictionally) in play here.

This Canon vs Non Canon argument seems to always crop up when someone needs it and ignored when they don't agree. That's why I don't say "Yes, but in Xanon". I don't see anyway to resolve that, as people are people.

I will give the original authors all due credit, as it is deserved. They did not have anywhere near the amount of information we take as granted today. Much being classified in someway.

[Raellus]

I'm not trying to be the canon police. I just thought a common frame of reference might be helpful. If y'all want to just keep arguing back and forth, ad nauseam, go for it. As long as y'all keep it civil, we're good.

[ArmySGT.]

I agree with you on nearly all points. However, I think you should consider the impact of U.S. partisans operating behind Mexican lines. Americans have lots of guns. They know the land. Also, loyal Mexican-Americans can gather intel for said partisan forces. I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

Also, long supply lines are vulnerable. The U.S. forces would have interior lines (i.e. much shorter/local supply) whereas the Mexican supply lines would often stretch for hundreds of miles through hostile (see point 1) territory. I would argue the opposite. Bakersfield and Los Angeles are closer to Mexico than Camp Rialeah, Umatilla Sierra Army Depot. San Diego is over run, as is Ft Irwin, Ft Ord, Vanderberg AFB, Twenty Nine Palms, and the Naval Air Stations in Sand Diego and the U.S. Navy at Long Beach.

Cutting off the power and water to lower California favors the invader who is able to bring those forward from home and not the defender who has to sit there without giving up terrain.

Lastly, after a year of heavy combat, Mexican AFV stocks would be considerably depleted and, in the v1.0 timeline at least, Mexico didn't have the capacity to produce large numbers of their own. Wouldn't they just buy more of the WW2 equipment that they do make parts and munitions for from other Latin American countries? RPGs from Cuba? The state of the Mexican infrastructure is in pretty good shape versus the U.S. What was really attacked and destroyed to a state where it cannot be rebuilt within a year or two years? Moreover, any attacks really motivates the Mexican government to further decentralize assets.

Mexico does produce AFVs though..... Diesel Nacional -1 . Then DN II, DN III, DN IV. What would they be able to ramp up to in war, I don't know. I don't know what their rate of production is now.

We do know (or infer) that they have production and depot facilities for the forxes. The M4s were re-engined with 8v 92t motors, the M3A1s have new suspensions and paint. The M8 Greyhounds have been re-armed with 20x139mm or 14.5 bloc. The M8 HMC has been kept in servie with new paint and traxks or the turrets moved to DN Vs (bufalo). This doesn't inxlude souring more from their Latin allies that were also gifted equipment from the U.S. In 1947.

To sum up, yes, in a T2K scenario, the Mexican army would have a number of advantages over the U.S. forces, but they'd also have to contend with some significant disadvantages (long supply lines and partisan activity), in addition to normal combat attrition (which both sides would be dealing with). Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

[Olefin]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

c) there is no power being generated south of Bakersfield or water being sent as well - and MilGov could easily cut the last water source to LA - its gravity fed - you blow it and no water to LA - and there is NO WAY IN HELL (emphasis mine) that the Mexicans are trucking enough water from the only water source they would have - which is the All American Canal near the Imperial Valley - all the way to just south of Bakersfield

d) I have read the description of CA in Howling Wilderness and frankly the description of California contradicts itself about ten times - it makes it sounds like almost no food gets grown then says they grow about 50 percent of normal food levels - well sorry but if the state is growing that much food after LA got massively depopulated then there is NO STARVATION in the state - so for CA I definitely ignore HW

e) The AFV's you mentioned were all produced in the early to mid-80's - Mexico made a conscious decision to stop making their own because their production rates sucked and the vehicles were garbage - and thats quoting Mexican sources by the way


The first attempts to update Mexico’s forces began in the 1979 when a decision was made to restart armored vehicle production in Mexico, which had moribund since the delivery of forty HWK-11 tracked APC’s in the 1960’s. The first product of this effort was the SEDENA 1000 armored recon vehicles which were based on the Dodge 4x4 truck. They were lightly armored and armed only with a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun.

The SEDENA 1000 paved the way for the first actual production vehicle, the DN-IV Caballo 4x4 wheeled APC, production of which started in 1983. They were an indigenous Mexican design similar to the V-150 but with a better suspension and bigger tires made for the rougher terrain of Mexico. It was armed with a SAMM-Morelos one-man turret equipped with a M2HB 50 caliber machine gun and a 7.62mm MG3 machine gun and was capable of carrying six troops and a crew of three.

In 1984 the DN-V Toro was introduced as an armored recon vehicle to complement the DN-IV. It was a 4x4 like the DN-IV and was fitted with the FVT 900 series one-man turret with a 20mm GIAT M621 cannon and a coaxial 7.62mm MG3 machine gun. While much better than the SEDENA 1000 it was still considered an inferior product compared to what was available from other countries.

Total production - 50 each of the DN-IV and V, about 24 of the Sedena 1000 - and in the 1960's they made a small number of APC's as well - 40 HWK-11 - and thats it

f) the Latino population of CA was around 9 million in 1997 - but it was not all Mexican - around 35-40% was Central American from countries that definitely would NOT BE HAPPY that Mexico had invaded and taken over parts of CA - especially those from Guatemala and Honduras - thus they would have taken over a big population who didnt like them very much

g) they could get RPG's from Cuba but they couldnt get more MILAN missiles - and most of the invasion routes eventually got into country where you arent going to nail an M1 with an RPG - not out around Palmdale or Edwards or the Arizona desert or western TX - and most of the countries that have equipment wouldnt be selling it to Mexico - Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador have got Nicaragua to worry about if its V1 - and once they cross the border any factory producing military hardware is going to get taken out by the US

[Olefin]

and the attacks on LA alone kill off a lot of LA's Latino population - three nukes on oil centers which kill 752,000 people, wound seriously 2.75 million people and the firestorms burn the entire barrio area to the ground - meaning that of those nine million Latinos in CA you just killed or seriously wounded probably 4 million of them - so much for all the help the Mexican invasion is going to get

brought to you by https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

[Olefin]

"Then you contradict yourself... Is San Francisco there or not? When I state and demonstrate all of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Air Force bases surrounding there and should have been nuked into extinction; you tell me SF is there, that it canon.

One or the other. Either SF is a dead husk unable to support the people or it is all sunshine and rainbows.

Any reasonable person would state..... SF is dead for all intents and purposes. The Federal buildings like the Federal Reserve gold vault there warrant megaton range nukes. If nuked there is no emergeny services that would be able to do little more than medial without electricity to run the pumps for water to hydrants.

How is it then that the J. Littlefield and company have power, food, water, safety, and 100% of the staff with no asualties in 2000? When people are starving to death or dying from preventable diseases.
How"

SF is alive not a dead husk - but the authority of the state only is in force where there are cops and MilGov forces that are still answering the state - meaning anywhere south of Bakersfield, north of San Francisco no one gives a damn about the law

as for how his guys are alive and healthy - no nukes nearby, lot of armored vehicles and weapons - as for power - he had a lot of diesel fuel on the property - and a machine shop like his would be able to turn out things like windmills to generate power for instance - and considering its CA I bet good money he had solar panels too

keep in mind - per canon - about 60-70% of the 40th basically told MilGov to go screw and disobeyed orders in late 2000 and refused to move as ordered and kept their tanks and guns - and for that huge act of mutiny the remaining government - did absolutely nothing - sounds like to me that no one cares too much about what the law is anymore

[Olefin]

Now if you dont follow canon and want to play your own game and own timeline then none of what I just posted matters - but if you are following at least some of the canon that is what you have to deal with - especially if you are like me and Raellus and want to write more canon material for the game - but if you are just playing your own campaign you can ignore as much of that as you like

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

[Raellus]

I wonder though. The areas the Mexican Armed Forces has penetrated and holds terrain is highly populated by Mexican descendants. Well, might be the whites vs latino militias are canceling each other out. Further, Mexico doesn't have to worry about partisans in Mexico city or elsewhere versus the U.S. Cities with Mexican born residents disrupting power, killing politicians, cutting rail lines, reporting troop movements, etc.

I've lived in Tucson for 25 years. By and large, the rather sizeable Latino community here would, in a T2K scenario, fight for the U.S.A., if they were to fight at all. I reckon that's true in most of the American Southwest. I don't think a simple binary white v. latino militia viewpoint is fair or accurate. That kind of thinking, in 1942, led to Japanese internment.

Agreed, in part. I just think the Mexicans are in a better position to make up those losses and support their forces forward versus the U.S. Position.

Agreed. I've always been an apologist for the Mexican invasion. I think it could have worked and been as successful as described in the T2K materials, with or without beefing up MA armored forces.

[Olefin]

You use canon when it suits you and you don't when you don't like it. The Howling Wilderness thread alone confirms that. What is the point if only one side does an apples to apples comparison? Why hold others to a standard you admit to not following yourself, in re Howling Wilderness?

Let alone the logical inconsistency of nuking two Air Force bases (one only launches satellites) several oil refineries then ignores completely the Pacific fleet bases and ship yards in San Francisco and San Diego.

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc.

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield

[swaghauler]

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in! :)

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

[Olefin]

As some of you already know, my backround is completely different (even for the V2.2 timeline) with Division Cuba coming from Russia explicitly to help the Mexican government (which is now a narco-puppet state). This gives Mexico modernized T55Ms with reactive armor, the Shorta systems dischargers (12 total), thermal imaging, laser rangers, and the computerized Volna fire control. They were supported by Division Cuba's Modernized (and equally well-equipped) T72Ms.
The 40th reequipped from surplus stocks of Marine tanks. At this time in history, the Marines had switched to using the M1 and there were a few hundred M60A3s with thermal imaging and reactive armor sitting in the depots as a result. These are what the remaining National Guard units (whose crews and M1 tanks were used to replace battlefield losses) and newly forming divisions are drawing out. In addition, Cadillac Gauge had an order placed by the Royal Thai Army in 1997 for 85 Stingrays. So in 1998, Texas seizes around 100 Stingrays that were set for export either to fulfill the Royal Thai Army's order or as "technology demonstrators" to various governments.
This is how I explain the Second US-Mexican War. The T55Ms and T72Ms are an equal match for the older US equipment that they faced essentially resulting in a case of "mutually assured destruction" (just like in Europe).

One other thing I'd like to address is the debate on ammo as a "destructive device." As you guys know, I have some knowledge here, especially since I began participating in D-Day Conneaut with their tank battle and all the Artillery that shows up. EACH ROUND of ammo in a casing larger than .50 (there are different rules for black powder rounds) is indeed a "destructive device" and subject to FORM 1 BATF rules (this was a BIG pain in the ass for owners of 12 gauge Streetsweeper shotguns when "Clinton" declared them "Destructive Devices" just before the 94 Assault Weapons Ban). While the $200 Tax Stamp is not that big a deal, the FILING is (or rather WAS). You must have WRITTEN acknowledgment from local LE of the request and then submit it to the BATF. During the 90's there were also limits on the number of Form 1 filings a single person/legal entity could make at once. The time to get a Form 1 approval hovered around ONE YEAR from start to finish. This is what would limit ammo count.
Both Explosive ammo AND Armor Piercing ammo was FORBIDDEN without the express written consent of the BATF. This was only given to manufacturers or testing facilities in the case of Large Caliber "Destructive Devices." Also, please note that a destructive device was a round of ammo OR ANY COMPONENT THAT COULD BE USED TO MAKE ONE! Because of these rules, most owners of "destructive devices" using a cartridge only had a few. I would think that 2D6 Shells would be appropriate after the Exchange. Also, note that "Armor Piercing" is strangely defined by the BAFT. It is based on construction MATERIAL and includes Tungsten, DU, and very hard (AR600+) Tool Steels. Thus, older hardened steel rounds that were "AP" back in WW2 may NOT QUALIFY today.

Making Ammo:

As you guys know, I'm a "Weapon's Enthusiast" in every sense of the word. "ball" and "canister" rounds are easy to make and AP rounds can be machined from tool steel or tungsten (if you can find either after The Exchange).

High Explosive Rounds:

HE is much trickier. Making Comp-B, ANFO, or Plastique isn't hard for anyone with a Chemistry Degree, The Anarchist's Cookbook, or the US Army's Improvised Munitions Handbook, but you will need a DEMO KIT (with DETONATORS) for a PROPER LCG Round. Unless you are going with ANFO and a Fuse Cord (the type of fuse that burns and is often seen sticking out of Dynamite in most movies) that you light just before firing, you are going to need either a Pressure Detonator or a Primer Detonator (most commonly equipped with a "pull ring") to detonate the above Comp-B or Plastique. They will NOT detonate if set on fire. Pressure detonators can be salvaged from Land Mines but this opens up ANOTHER "can of worms" (and hopefully ONLY in the "figurative" sense).

HEAT Rounds:

The quickest way to make a HEAT round is to get one of those big (and cool) Copper funnels like they use in Breweries and Wineries. I personally would only use a pressure detonator with this round. One way to make the detonator less sensitive is to put a waxed cotton wad (which will soften under the heat of firing) between the detonator's trigger and pad before removing the safety screw. This would greatly increase the pressure needed to detonate it. I would then make an "Investment Casting using Mild Steel with the Copper funnel (properly plugged with wax to keep the "negative space" inside it) forming the nose and body front. For those who don't know, Investment Casting (also known as the lost wax process) requires you to build a mold taking into account the general shape and any "negative (ie open) Space" the cast object needs. I would Slightly recess the tip of the funnel inside the nose of the projectile to protect the installed pressure detonator with a nub of mild steel. This nub will deform and allow the detonator to properly impact against the target's surface for detonation (and formation of the molten jet). Once the Casting is cool, you polish it with either a grinder (this guy had better be a Master grinder) or using a Lathe (for a precision polish). I would then fill the copper funnel's negative space with Comp-B and install the detonator. Now you have a HEAT round for the Apocalypse. Of course, it is a MUCH more detailed procedure but I'm not comfortable going into details on an open forum.

The Primer Detonator:

This is a mechanical detonator often detonated by a pull ring which ignites a pyrotechnic delay fuse to the actual detonator. You must drill a hole through the BACK of the round and insert this detonator through the back with additional pyrotechnic fuse pushed into it PAST the pull ring. The fuse is ignited by the powder in the round igniting and burns for a fixed period before the detonation of the explosive. You had better have your range right. You'll also have to insert a steel "plug" into the round's nose to help build "explosive pressure" so the superheated jet can form. I'd weld it in.

The poor man's "fuse;"

You just drill a hole in the base of the round and use a wire to insert a lightable fuse cord with a SPECIFIC BURN RATE. This requires the substitution of COMP-B with either ANFO or Powdered Explosives (Cordite or Black Powder). The fuse is ignited by the shell's powder charge and WILL EXPLODE after a fixed "burn time"/"time in flight" so make sure your Ranging is accurate. Don't forget to plug the round's nose after you pour the powder in! :)

Finding Brass after The Exchange:

Sherman ammo (and 57mm Howitzer ammo) was often "demilled" and either whole rounds (sans explosive) or Brass Casings sold as curios. There were also many "training rounds" featuring mild steel shells, brass casings WITHOUT primer pockets, and filled with sand for proper weight that were used in "dry fire training" (aka "crew drills"). These pop up all the time and some are even converted to "destructive devices" to satisfy the demand from reenactors. The only thing stopping them from becoming actual ammo is the Legal Repercussions for doing so. After the Exchange, this will disappear. I'd rate both 75mm and 57mm Casings as RARE. You will find them in Museums, VFWs, Rotaries, Surplus Stores, and Gunshops. Both Training Rounds AND "Demilled" Casings would require some skill in either TIG welding or Machining to become functional. I'd chance a "demilled" Case (because I can TIG fairly well) but pass on Machining the Primer Pocket of a Casing (because this exceeds MY Skillset). Unfortunately not that many rounds will be available and you will use SIGNIFICANT resources to make them.

Ok why do I love this forum - this post right here is why I love this forum - where else do you find all this kind of fascinating detail presented so well?

Well done Sir!

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

[StainlessSteelCynic]

FYI - Littlefield had a literal ton of the the demilled shells/practice rounds/etc. that Swaghauler just described above and the machinists and know how on how to make them into live shells

Do you have a source for that information? While I quite happily agree with you that if anyone would probably have a group of people with those skills, it would be Littlefield and his compatriots at his museum but I'd still like to read the source myself before accepting it as fact.

[Olefin]

Do you have a source for that information? While I quite happily agree with you that if anyone would probably have a group of people with those skills, it would be Littlefield and his compatriots at his museum but I'd still like to read the source myself before accepting it as fact.

The shells were part of what was auctioned off when the collection was sold - all the shells they auctioned were either inert or practice rounds or dummy rounds - so if had live ammo it wasnt part of the auction for sure - have to see if I can find the print out on the auction I used to have - let me see when I get home tonight.

As to the machinists for the kind of conversion work that Swaghauler described - part of what he did to make the vehicles look authentic was to restore the rounds he had to look like they were ready to go live rounds to give that final bit of authenticity - you can see that in photos that have been posted over the years on flickr and other sites by people who went there. Thus if they can do that then its not much of a stretch to do the remaining work to make the shells live - what he would need is an explosives expert - and given his resources and ability to find technicians and restoration experts that wouldnt be that big an issue.

[mpipes]

Swaghauler that was not my understanding of the legalities, but I yield to one with practical experience. Shame though. There are a few rural PDs that have it wrong!

How hard is it to make a shell casing then? Could you get by with a cloth bag holding propellant? Steel coffee cans and such?

Olefin, try and stick in a few muzzle loading cannon. :)

[Olefin]

and here you go as promised - so as you can see he had a lot of shells, casings and missile tubes - and more than enough casings, shells, etc.. to arm what he had given the right people and plans - and if you want to see what else you can see tons of engines, gun parts, wheels, tracks, range finders, etc.

http://old.auctionsamerica.com/events/all-lots.cfm?order=runorder&SaleCode=LC14&grouping=Tank%20Parts%20and%20Surplus&rowsperpage=all

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/LC14/The-Littlefield-Collection/lots/r5045/573773

Lot P128 Crate Of 105mm M115B1 Ordinance With Target Practice Projectiles

Lot P148 Crate of miscellaneous shell casings

Lot P165 Lot of shell racks, shell casings and missile tubes

Lot P167 Lot of projectiles fused and training mix

Lot P195 Large lot of shells, casings and storage tubes

Lot P206 - M724A1 105mm TPDS-T training rounds - This discarding sabot round is similar in external appearance and is ballistically similar to 2000 meters with the APDS-T Cartridge M392A2.

Lot P243, Lot P297 - each lot was Two crates of 40mm M25 rounds

Lot P281 - 105mm howitzer illumination rounds, 90mm rounds

[swaghauler]

Swaghauler that was not understanding of the legalities, but I yield to one with practical experience. Shame though. There are a few rural PDs that have it wrong!

How hard is it to make a shell casing then? Could you get by with a cloth bag holding propellant? Steel coffee cans and such?

Olefin, try and stick in a few muzzle loading cannon. :)

The BATF regulations involving Armor Piercing Ammunition were added to the Gun Control Act of 1968. They Are part of the US Title 18 Crimes Codes. The SPECIFIC sections are:

USC 921
USC 922
USC 925

These sections make it ILLEGAL to possess, transport, sell, or manufacture Armor Piercing Ammunition. They also give a description of what AP ammo is comprised of (in essence a list of prohibited materials in ammo manufacturing). This Federal law TRUMPS ALL STATE LAW. State Laws vary and some states may have allowed AP ammo prior to the GCA of 1968. How strict BATF interpretations are is entirely dependent on which political party is in power. Under Bush 43, BATF NFA wait times dropped from 1 YEAR to just 120 DAYS per form 1 check. They climbed again under President Obama and really haven't fallen under Trump.

Making Shell Casings:

A qualified machinist with a "properly speced" shell to properly measure could crank out new casings but it would take resources. Brass will be in short supply and functioning machine shops not far behind. You CANNOT use a "Bagged Powder Charge" in place of a cartridge round UNLESS the weapon system in question SPECIFICALLY says so. This is because the casing serves a number of functions.

FIRST: Casings act as "heat sinks" drawing excess heat as well as unburned powder out of the weapon's action. They also hold a primer which is usually ignited by a hammer/percussion system (bag and projectile systems use a SEPARATE primer that usually looks like a .38 pistol cartridge and the weapon has an external hammer that strikes this externally loaded primer cartridge).

SECOND: Casings center the round to the bore. If you look at separately loaded rounds (like the 155mm howitzers) you will see that the shell often has a brass "driving band" around its base. This is to help center the round and make sure it doesn't become damaged during firing. Seating this driving band against the rifling is a KEY REASON for the often violent "ramming" of a round seen in videos of towed 155mm gun crews. An improper ram will create accuracy issues AND potentially reduce the round's maximum range. Cartridge ammo has NO driving band as the head of the case acts as the index for accuracy.

THIRD: Cases act as "auxiliary pressure vessels." A cartridge is an integral component in managing both pressure forces AND recoil forces when the weapon is fired. Taking the case out of the system could dangerously affect how the weapon handles both the pressure of firing and the subsequent "recoil impulse" after firing.

As you can see, you just can't "replace" a cartridge with a separately loaded bag of powder.

I have a GREAT respect for black powder weapons. Other than their slow reload times, they are EVERY BIT AS DEADLY AS MODERN WEAPONS. Twilight2000 ERRONEOUSLY makes light of these weapons just like they do with projectile weapons. A Colt Walker Revolver loaded to normal levels has a stopping power that EXCEEDS modern .45 LONG COLT AND .44 SPECIAL ballistics. The .44 Army Cap and Ball is equal in power to a .45 ACP and the .36 Navy Cap and Ball actually EXCEEDS most 4" .38 Special revolvers in power. Black powder weapons are NOT weak.

Going even further back, just YouTube Pumpkin' Chunkin' and take a look at the power of ancient siege engines. If an air cannon can launch an EIGHT POUND PUMPKIN OVER A KILOMETER, it can launch an 8lb rock too. Look at the Trebuchet's power in use. In fact, one weapon I have considered making is a modern version of a Ballista using truck leaf springs. Imagine 4 leaf springs stacked on what would be, in essence, a crossbow on steroids that fired a 6-foot metal spear. You would use a come-along/winch to cock it and the bowstring would be 10 gauge wire like the stuff used in skyscraper antenna guidewires. I'm willing to bet that it could shoot that 6ft "bolt" completely through a modern passenger car. Primitive does NOT mean ineffective.

[The Dark]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

a) San Francisco was not nuked - Howling Wilderness specifically mentions the city government is still around and active well into late 2001

b) CA nuke sites - canonical

El Segundo, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.75 Mt).
Richmond, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (one 1.5 Mt).
Carson, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.75 Kt).
Avon, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Torrance, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Wilmington, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (1.25 Mt).
Benicia, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Martinez, CA: Oil refining and storage facilities (.5 Mt).
Vandenberg AFB, CA: Recon Satellite Launch Facilities (1 Mt,
ground burst).
March AFB, CA: 15th Air Force Headquarters (1 Mt).

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

[ArmySGT.]

ArmySgt if you are not using canon then you are doing an apples versus oranges argument - we have been using canon and writing the Littlefield Collection into it

I have read the description of CA in Howling Wilderness and frankly the description of California contradicts itself about ten times - it makes it sounds like almost no food gets grown then says they grow about 50 percent of normal food levels - well sorry but if the state is growing that much food after LA got massively depopulated then there is NO STARVATION in the state - so for CA I definitely ignore HW

You demand others adhere 100% to the games canon timeline and events, then exempt yourself. Then chutzpah be offended that others point out the flaws in that same canon that they too would definitely ignore.

Now if you dont follow canon and want to play your own game and own timeline then none of what I just posted matters - but if you are following at least some of the canon that is what you have to deal with - especially if you are like me and Raellus and want to write more canon material for the game - but if you are just playing your own campaign you can ignore as much of that as you like

Leaves one breathless.

I've lived in Tucson for 25 years. By and large, the rather sizeable Latino community here would, in a T2K scenario, fight for the U.S.A., if they were to fight at all. I reckon that's true in most of the American Southwest. I don't think a simple binary white v. latino militia viewpoint is fair or accurate. That kind of thinking, in 1942, led to Japanese internment.

I have been in heavy equipment for 10 years now doing roads, pipe line, and gravel pits. The crews are ¾ Mexican including the Superintendents. I have personal up front working experience with the same. I just have the feel that if they could get the opportunity to knock some pride out of America for the last to centuries of Imperialism, they would do so. That goes for those born in Mexico or the second generation. By the third generation, I feel their roots and loyalty sways to the U.S.A.

Now having lived in Trinidad, Colorado, the Latino population there are born from Spanish migrants from before Mexico existed and truly dislike the Mexicans (or being called one).


Agreed. I've always been an apologist for the Mexican invasion. I think it could have worked and been as successful as described in the T2K materials, with or without beefing up MA armored forces. I do too. I feel their well equipped to fight as highly mobile Cavalry supported by artillery, very good human intelligence, and a working logistics.

They saw the changes coming and smartly scrapped the M3A1s and M5s replacing those with the ERC -90 in the 1980s. I don't see why it is difficult to put faith in their doctrine, logistics, and training. That would only gain more importance to them in the V1 time line with Latin America arming up and rattling sabers in the 90s.

[ArmySGT.]

Hey if you dont like the nuke pattern go tell that to Marc Miller and Frank Frey and Frank Chadwick - they are still around on facebook - and I dont like HW because frankly the weather idea is non-nonsensical and if you follow what it says about how little food is left you are looking at the total destruction of the US for about 200 years or so given what little would be left of the population - doesnt take a math genius to say that if the population is already down by 50 percent and there is only enough food for a quarter of them that means you have 12.5 percent of the US population left - and that doesnt factor in disease, fighting for the remaining food, areas under foreign occupation, etc. This isn't realistic given the world situation in 2000? The areas of the U.S. That produce food or the energy to make food are occupied, nuked, or under fallout. The Mid west and California for major food exporters and Texas for energy. There isn't fuel for tractors if there was anyone left there with the knowledge to operate them. Even in the 90s we had idiots that did not know the food in grocery stores came from farms. There isn't power to run the canneries even if there was food to put into cans. Everyone is making do locally with what they make locally as productions, and transportation is deeply curtailed. It takes hundreds of gallons of fuel to grow xrops and harvest them, let alone that our system of farming takes huge amounts of ammonium nitrate from the petroleum industry. No refineries, then no ANFO and the harvest yields drop off signifiantly. Assuming that the required monoxulture hybrid seeds are available at all, those suffer the same penalties as a farmer growing food or feed.

sorry but given that kind of holocaust there is no way that less than two hundreds years later the US is not only back together but back in space and going faster than light 2300 doesn't match up with T2K enough to really say one follows the other as canon.

and as I pointed out his own description of CA contradicted itself - but that doesnt change the nuke attack history or the Mexican invasion - both of which are separate from his state by state description of what he says will happen after April 2001 I have said that I give the writers their due in what they wrote AT THE TIME. We take for granted the information that we have available for us today.

That doesn't prelude one from adding strikes that a competent Soviet command would have done.

Looking at Vandenberg or March any system used to nuke those had to pass over more important targets. So there isn't any reasoning for them being something land based or sub launched could not target. The strikes on refineries demonstrates a willingness to kill civilians by the truck load. Vandenberg is mostly NASA and March had KC-10As in the 90s. Neither of those justifies using a nuke there and leaving a naval shipyard with a dry dock able to support repairs up to nuclear carriers. Nuking Vandenberg? So what! The gantries, radar, communications are so spread out that without using 10 or 20 warheads the place can be rebuilt in a year after the fallout has decayed.

but since GDW never released another canon US module after April 2001 date I pretty much ignore anything past that date - but the I dont ignore the nuke attacks or the events from June 2000 to April 2001 or the Mexican invasion and its effects - that is canon and I go by that to the letter - I have to - I am writing for the canon after all now - and one of the things I am working on is what happens in California starting in May of 2001 - and it includes Littlefield Be prepared for all the material in Challenger that is endorsed by GDW.

There is to much what if, and might have been to take the Littlefield collection seriously, What can a veteran tell a model maker though?

[ArmySGT.]

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Only 22 miles or 35 kilometers from the U.S. Navy shipyard at Hunters Point.

BRAC shut that down in 1994

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Naval_Shipyard

[Olefin]

The bolded nuke sites are all within 30 miles of San Francisco (and Richmond is less than 15 miles away). Most of San Francisco would suffer light damage from the Richmond blast (even if it was multiple smaller blasts, the damage would likely reach to the Mission District). It may not have been directly hit, but it would have repercussions both directly from the blast and indirectly from refugees. The main power plant in the city is within the damage zone.

However, the Military Vehicle Technology Foundation wasn't actually in San Francisco. It was in Portola Valley, about 40 miles south. It was, in fact, very close to the spot on the v2.2 map marked "Wilmington" (which appears to be misplaced and appears to be somewhere in the vicinity of Cupertino). If we accept the list over the map, the MVTF should be OK, since it's far enough south to avoid the San Francisco blasts. However, if the map is correct and the Wilmington strike deviated, the MVTF was likely damaged and without clear road connections to anywhere but San Francisco, since a blast near Cupertino would have a 5 psi overpressure cover from the mountains to the bay.

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

[Olefin]

You might want to check your actual map coordinates guys

Wilmington CA is not anywhere near Portola Valley - not even close

Wilmington is a neighborhood in the Los Angeles Harbor Region area of Los Angeles, California, covering 9.14 square miles.

Featuring a heavy concentration of industry and the third-largest oil field in the United States, it is considered sparsely populated in comparison with the city as a whole and within the city it is distinguished by its youthful population and high percentage of Latino and foreign-born residents.

It is the site of Los Angeles Harbor College, Banning High School and ten other primary and secondary schools. Wilmington has six parks, including one on the waterfront.

[Olefin]

Oh and ArmySgt - you are getting very close to violating the rules of the forum with your personal attacks against me. If you dont like my opinions about the canon and its inconsistencies notice that nothing that I wrote and published IN ANY WAY contradicted the canon.

[ArmySGT.]

Oh and ArmySgt - you are getting very close to violating the rules of the forum with your personal attacks against me. If you dont like my opinions about the canon and its inconsistencies notice that nothing that I wrote and published IN ANY WAY contradicted the canon.


I am bending over backwards to be polite when replying to you. Try to do the same yourself. I just haven't risen to your baiting replies as you may like.

[The Dark]

Wilmington is in the Los Angeles area not San Francisco

Yes, I did say it appears to be misplaced. Now, which takes precedence in canon, the list of targets or the map of where nukes hit? That was the entire point of my post, which you completely glossed over. The pedantic description of Wilmington is completely irrelevant if the nuke missed.

[kato13]

I honestly don't have time or the inclination to moderate this.

You two (ARMYSGT and Olefin) seem to both feel that continuations posting will lead to someone "winning". You two have a fundamental disagreement that clearly is never going to resolve itself.

The last to post DOES NOT WIN.

At some point you have to be confident you made your case, be the bigger man and walk away.

Since neither of you is doing that at the moment it will end this particular argument with a thread lock.