Great Lakes vs Mississippi Usefullness

[kalos72]

So I am sure most of us have thought that the Ole Miss will be a great resource to repair/control during the rebuilding process. But what about the Great Lakes, and more importantly I think, the Saint Lawrence River access to the Atlantic.

I am thinking about the value of setting up a team on the Great Lakes to gain control of the Lakes and start to use it to transport people/materials throughout.

What kind of "Navy" would you need to control the waterways? A Brown Water Navy style?

Would Canada take issue?

[swaghauler]

Considering that the Freedom Class is being built in Wisconsin and the average lake freighter is about 750 FEET long, you can use a "blue water" vessel to do it.

The largest power distribution system in North America is located at Niagra Falls NY (and Ontario). The Canadian side produces 2 MILLION MW of power while the US plants produce 2.675 MILLION MW of power. This does NOT include the Wind Farms located on Lake Erie near Buffalo New York. This system powers the ENTIRE Northeastern US from Canada to the Atlantic Ocean.

The Lock System:

There are SEVEN locks on the ST. Lawrence Seaway. They are all built to the following dimensions: Length= 233.5m (766ft), Width= 24m (80ft), Depth= 9.14m (30ft).

The Welland Canal between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie is comprised of EIGHT locks which bypass the Falls. They are EXACTLY the same specification as the Seaway's canals and locks.

The Detroit and ST. Clair Rivers transits between Lake Erie west of Port Clinton OH through the very shallow lake ST. Clair and on into Lake Huron. There are no locks but navigable channels (8.2m/ 26.65ft) have been dredged in the rivers and the place is congested with LOTS of boat traffic.

There are FOUR locks on the ST. Marys River between Lake Huron and Lake Superior. They were originally linked by the SOO Lock System.
The POE Lock is for commercial traffic. It is 366m (1200ft) in Length, 34m (110ft) in Width, and 10m (32ft) in Depth.
The MacArthur Lock is also primarily used for commercial traffic. It is 224m (800ft) in Length, 24m (80ft) Wide, and 9m (29.5ft) Deep.
The Davis Lock is also located here. It is 411m (1350ft) Long, 24m (80ft) Wide, and 7m (23.1ft) Deep.
The Sabin Lock has been retired and is NOT used (in need of repairs).

The distance from the entry to the ST. Lawrence Seaway to Duluth Mn is 2340 miles and EVERY major city has a port and a dry dock of up to 700 feet in length.

[Legbreaker]

When were those wind turbines installed?
After November 1997 would be my guess, therefore they're not there in any of the T2K timelines.
The locks are likely to be the big failure points of the Great Lakes. If maintained there shouldn't be too much of a problem besides those posed by pirates/marauders and the like. If not....

[kalos72]

There is no standing US Navy presence on the Great Lakes are there? Canadian Navy?

I know there are a few USCG Ice Breakers but thats all I know of...

The only boo I have seen on Canada after 2000 shows Quebec being separatist and under France influence so that might get dicey on the tail end of the Saint Lawrence.

[.45cultist]

There is no standing US Navy presence on the Great Lakes are there? Canadian Navy?

I know there are a few USCG Ice Breakers but thats all I know of...

The only boo I have seen on Canada after 2000 shows Quebec being separatist and under France influence so that might get dicey on the tail end of the Saint Lawrence.

The Canadian river authorities misjudged the winter and a U.S. destroyer or troop ship was stranded at a Canadian city this year. But all the strip joints and bars were happy! Sorry, I can't remember the details.

[pmulcahy11b]

The locks are likely to be the big failure points of the Great Lakes. If maintained there shouldn't be too much of a problem besides those posed by pirates/marauders and the like. If not....

They would be a "nice" target for a nuke...

[pmulcahy11b]

What kind of "Navy" would you need to control the waterways? A Brown Water Navy style?

I would guess a mix -- near shore, with all the bays and inlets and such, a brown water navy would be appropriate. But from what I've seen on Discovery Channel, Science Channel, Smithsonian Channel, etc, the rest of the Great Lakes are more like a small ocean in currents, water conditions, and especially, weather. That's where larger ships would be best. (I don't think they'd put a carrier on the Great Lakes, though -- you couldn't get them there in the first place, and at least early in the war, aircraft from shore bases could probably respond faster. Well, maybe a small destroyer or frigate with a helicopter deck...)

I haven't been to the Great Lakes since I was a baby, so those who live there, please comment?

[swaghauler]

When were those wind turbines installed?
After November 1997 would be my guess, therefore they're not there in any of the T2K timelines.
The locks are likely to be the big failure points of the Great Lakes. If maintained there shouldn't be too much of a problem besides those posed by pirates/marauders and the like. If not....

The original turbines were installed around 1995 and comprised around 2 dozen half megawatt turbines located SOUTH of I90 Eastbound. This system produced a whopping (said sarcastically) 2 MW of power. They were replaced in 2007 by 14 FIVE MEGAWATT turbines that average 34 MW of power and can peak at 70 MW of power. A BIG improvement over the original farm. There are MANY more such farms in the Great Lakes Region now. back in the 90's, there were like 3 such facilities with generation capability from 2 to 5 megawatts.

Those early turbines could be salvaged though. They were about 100 to 150 feet high and the turbines had 50ft blades and were this size of a small car. Today's turbines are 266ft high, with 160ft blades and weight in excess of 250 TONS. You aren't moving that without specialized equipment.

[swaghauler]

The Canadian river authorities misjudged the winter and a U.S. destroyer or troop ship was stranded at a Canadian city this year. But all the strip joints and bars were happy! Sorry, I can't remember the details.

If you're talking about the most recent incident, that would be the Freedom Class LCS-9 USS Little Rock while she was undergoing pre-commissioning sea trials on Lake Superior. She was finally able to commission and actually made an appearance at the Naval Museum in Buffalo NY for that ceremony.

[swaghauler]

I would guess a mix -- near shore, with all the bays and inlets and such, a brown water navy would be appropriate. But from what I've seen on Discovery Channel, Science Channel, Smithsonian Channel, etc, the rest of the Great Lakes are more like a small ocean in currents, water conditions, and especially, weather. That's where larger ships would be best. (I don't think they'd put a carrier on the Great Lakes, though -- you couldn't get them there in the first place, and at least early in the war, aircraft from shore bases could probably respond faster. Well, maybe a small destroyer or frigate with a helicopter deck...)

I haven't been to the Great Lakes since I was a baby, so those who live there, please comment?

I have sailed Lake Erie REGULARLY since I was 14. I have sailed ALL of the Great Lakes at least once. They are like inland seas with both tides and currents. In fact, during the Battle of Lake Erie (the War of 1812), the Brigg Niagra could only cross the sandbar to Presque Isle Bay at high tide in the morning and evening. Lake Superior is SO DEEP that the lake's temp rarely exceeds 60 degrees in late August and 50 degrees is more common. These cold lake temps are due to her latitude and her depth (1,330ft). It is the reason it is said that "Gittchi Goommie (Indian phonetic pronunciation) never gives up her dead." The rivers also create currents that run through the lakes. You will encounter 4 to 6 knot currents in various places on the great lakes. The most common locations being on the Niagra River near NY and Ontario heading towards the falls, the ST. Clair River from Lake Huron to Lake ST. Clair and in the ST. Lawrence Seaway proper.

Lake Erie is the shallowest lake (210ft at its deepest) and Lake Superior is the deepest lake (1,330ft at its deepest). Truly large ocean-going ships need to stick to established channels to avoid groundings. The area of Lake ST. Claire is the shallowest portion (with an 8.2m channel) with most of this VERY LARGE lake being only about 10 feet deep. Lake Superior is the easiest to navigate with an AVERAGE DEPTH of 210ft.

The real limiter would be the Drafts of the locks and channels. A Perry Class Frigate has a draft of 6.7m (21.8ft) and could sail in the locks/canals. A Burke Class Destroyer (draft of 9.3m/30.3ft) would ground and so would a Tico Class Cruiser (draft of 10.2m/33.2ft). It should be noted that this is the reason the Navy deployed the Cyclone Class PCs to The Gulf. There were MANY locations were US Navy ships COULD NOT SAIL in The Gulf. The PCs (with their 2.3m/7.5ft drafts) can go places no other US ship (including the Perrys) could go.

The biggest ports are Cleveland OH, Chicago ILL, and Duluth MN. Both Cleveland and Chicago receive both bulk cargo AND containers. Duluth receives mostly bulk cargo. There are also LARGE railheads in Chicago that can be used to move cargo inland. Cleveland, Erie, and Buffalo all have a few (2 to 4) rail lines which service their ports. Duluth has a railhead as well but it is mostly dedicated to bulk hauling (complete with a car dumper right at the port. Duluth is HUGE. I recommend YouTubing or Googling the port so you can see just how big it is. Chicago is undoubtedly the busiest port for all cargo types though. This port handles not only foreign cargo but also low-priority domestic cargos heading to the Eastern Seaboard from the heartland. It IS cheaper to ship items on a freighter than to send them by rail (or truck)... IF there is no deadline for delivery. Steel, flour, grain, and low-cost domestic goods are the normal cargo types.

In an affront to the name of this thread, I'd suggest that the Great Lakes are just a continuation of the shipping that can come up the "Mighty Miss." The Mississippi connects to the Great Lakes and ships CAN transfer to one or the other. They can do this by entering the Chicago Sanitary & Ship Canal, a 28 mile/45km long shipping lane that connects to the Mighty Miss. This canal is 62m/202ft wide and 24ft/7.3m deep and located just West of Chicago's downtown. They can also link to the CS&S Canal from the 16 mile/26km long CAL-SAG Channel near the South Side of Chicago.

It should also be noted that The Ohio River joins the Mighty Miss and expands the potential river traffic all the way to Pittsburgh PA (and up to 30 miles North of her).

[Adm.Lee]

I am thinking about the value of setting up a team on the Great Lakes to gain control of the Lakes and start to use it to transport people/materials throughout.

What kind of "Navy" would you need to control the waterways? A Brown Water Navy style?

Would Canada take issue?

Two navies, or perhaps two types of several navies. I think you should want small boats for shoreline work, a flotilla for each lake, and maybe a few larger vessels for patrolling further out in each lake. Something like the Coast Guard cutters in the latter case.

The larger vessels for assisting shipping, the smaller for coastal patrols. Unless you have a marauder flotilla crossing a lake to raid another coast, I don't see a need for many of the bigger vessels.

Canada should certainly be involved in whatever arming takes place, IIRC, the treaties that demilitarized the lakes after the War of 1812 should still be in place.

[Olefin]

When were those wind turbines installed?
After November 1997 would be my guess, therefore they're not there in any of the T2K timelines.
The locks are likely to be the big failure points of the Great Lakes. If maintained there shouldn't be too much of a problem besides those posed by pirates/marauders and the like. If not....

Wind turbines dont really factor into the power generation at Niagara Falls - the power generation is from the falls themselves - i.e. its the water going over the falls generating a huge amount of power - FYI most of the equipment that runs and generates power was installed a very long time ago - meaning EMP will basically not effect the ability to generate power there - its one of the big screw ups in the game - i.e. unless you nuke those power generating plants then there will be power to burn for Western NY for sure - and you dont need a drop of fuel or a single pound of coal to do so

Info on the power plant on the US Side - The Robert Moses Niagara Hydroelectric Power Station is a hydroelectric power station in Lewiston, New York, near Niagara Falls. Owned and operated by the New York Power Authority (NYPA), the plant diverts water from the Niagara River above Niagara Falls and returns the water into the lower portion of the river near Lake Ontario. It uses 13 generators at an installed capacity of 2,675 MW (3,587,000 hp). Plant was commissioned in 1961

Then on the Canadian side you have two plants that have been there since the 1950's that can produce another 2000 MW as well - and dont need modern control systems to work - one of them has been continuously generating power since 1922

Thus the Great Lakes at Niagara would be a very interesting area indeed by 2001 considering the lack of power generation capability in much of the US and Canada - and the closest strikes were at Toronto and Hamilton - nothing hit Niagara Falls at all

[Olefin]

FYI the Great Lakes would also be producing food like crazy - no amount of drought is going to make the biggest concentration of fresh water in the world go dry

[Legbreaker]

The generators may still be there, but the distribution network isn't exactly in prime condition. Also need maintenance on the generators, even if it's just removing logs and other debris from the inlet screens and lubricating various moving parts.
Provided EMP didn't screw things up too much, it shouldn't take TOO much effort though, provided a few basic parts and machines (cranes, perhaps a few boats, etc) are available, along with the necessary fuel to run them. Not a completely insurmountable obstacle, but certainly one to keep a few score people busy for a while.

As for agriculture, the big issue is moving the water for irrigation. Without fuel many pumps will be useless, and without electricity, the rest won't be any good either.
That said, there's been ways of shifting bulk amounts of water for nearly as long as organised agriculture has existed. The more modern methods are just a lot more efficient than a chain of buckets or windmills.
Certainly some areas would have to be abandoned at least in the short term for crops, although may still see some use as pasture, provided water could be provided for stock. Establishing a low elevation stock watering point is definitely a lot easier though than irrigating the entire field.

Realistically, it doesn't take much to work out what the Lakes would look like post nuke - only have to look back to the first half of the 20th century.
I'd imagine there wouldn't be too many refugee camps in the area either - all able bodied people would quickly find work tilling fields, digging irrigation ditches or refurbishing/making old style farm equipment. Many may even be put to use pulling plows and other equipment given the limited number of suitable draft animals compared to even the 1950's.

The big problem is feeding and housing the influx of people in the first twelve months or so.

[CDAT]

So I am sure most of us have thought that the Ole Miss will be a great resource to repair/control during the rebuilding process. But what about the Great Lakes, and more importantly I think, the Saint Lawrence River access to the Atlantic.

I am thinking about the value of setting up a team on the Great Lakes to gain control of the Lakes and start to use it to transport people/materials throughout.

What kind of "Navy" would you need to control the waterways? A Brown Water Navy style?

Would Canada take issue?

I can honestly say that your first part "So I am sure most of us have thought that the Ole Miss will be a great resource to repair/control during the rebuilding process." had never crossed my mind before you brought it up. Being a life long West Coasty it was entirely out of sight out of mind. But having taken some time to read what others have said and thought about it now interesting. One of the things that did stick out to me I used to work at Grand Coulee Dam (one of the largest in the world) taking out the Dams is not that easy, but taking out the power grid is much easier (EMP would do it very well). And very few is any Dam has the parts needed to bring even the local power grid back up. So even if the dam is not damaged (very likely) the power grid is likely to be ruined.

[.45cultist]

If you're talking about the most recent incident, that would be the Freedom Class LCS-9 USS Little Rock while she was undergoing pre-commissioning sea trials on Lake Superior. She was finally able to commission and actually made an appearance at the Naval Museum in Buffalo NY for that ceremony.

I think you got it, I was on break and in a rush....

[Olefin]

The generators may still be there, but the distribution network isn't exactly in prime condition. Also need maintenance on the generators, even if it's just removing logs and other debris from the inlet screens and lubricating various moving parts.
Provided EMP didn't screw things up too much, it shouldn't take TOO much effort though, provided a few basic parts and machines (cranes, perhaps a few boats, etc) are available, along with the necessary fuel to run them. Not a completely insurmountable obstacle, but certainly one to keep a few score people busy for a while.

As for agriculture, the big issue is moving the water for irrigation. Without fuel many pumps will be useless, and without electricity, the rest won't be any good either.
That said, there's been ways of shifting bulk amounts of water for nearly as long as organised agriculture has existed. The more modern methods are just a lot more efficient than a chain of buckets or windmills.
Certainly some areas would have to be abandoned at least in the short term for crops, although may still see some use as pasture, provided water could be provided for stock. Establishing a low elevation stock watering point is definitely a lot easier though than irrigating the entire field.

Realistically, it doesn't take much to work out what the Lakes would look like post nuke - only have to look back to the first half of the 20th century.
I'd imagine there wouldn't be too many refugee camps in the area either - all able bodied people would quickly find work tilling fields, digging irrigation ditches or refurbishing/making old style farm equipment. Many may even be put to use pulling plows and other equipment given the limited number of suitable draft animals compared to even the 1950's.

The big problem is feeding and housing the influx of people in the first twelve months or so.

FYI I was born and raised in Western New York and I have family members there still who have friends who work at those power plants - and EMP basically would have left those plants almost untouched - the turbines and almost all the control equipment in the mid-90's was very old fashioned - we arent talking banks of computers that were vulnerable to EMP

Also that whole area is very well watered - there are even what we call "mucklands" that are close to swamps that most likely would still be fine no matter what the drought conditions. And if there is anywhere in the Northeast that could take an influx of people and be able to feed them its there.

and there are a lot of hunters and veterans in the area that would be assisting in keeping order

It is mentioned in Challenge magazine as well - the module about the oil in PA talks about the area in some length

[swaghauler]

I can honestly say that your first part "So I am sure most of us have thought that the Ole Miss will be a great resource to repair/control during the rebuilding process." had never crossed my mind before you brought it up. Being a life long West Coasty it was entirely out of sight out of mind. But having taken some time to read what others have said and thought about it now interesting. One of the things that did stick out to me I used to work at Grand Coulee Dam (one of the largest in the world) taking out the Dams is not that easy, but taking out the power grid is much easier (EMP would do it very well). And very few is any Dam has the parts needed to bring even the local power grid back up. So even if the dam is not damaged (very likely) the power grid is likely to be ruined.

The "Ol Miss" and the Great Lakes are actually part of a cruiser's (as in Sailing Cruisers who travel the World) Rite of Passage...
There is a thing called The Great Loop which is a 6,000-mile circuit of the Eastern US. You sail from the Great Lakes in the summer and either enter the Mississippi or exit the Great Lakes via the ST. Lawrence Seaway in the fall. You then sail towards either the Gulf of Mexico or the Intracoastal Waterway south of NY. If you sail the IC, you exit it in Florida and head west. You complete the Loop by returning to your start point from the opposite direction from which you started (making a giant loop).

I can see a group of players grabbing a sailboat (I'd grab a CAT) and heading down the IC to Florida for the Urban Gorilla module. I'd cross Lake Okeechobee and approach Tampa from the South. Mooring offshore would also provide an added layer of security for the team.

[swaghauler]

FYI I was born and raised in Western New York and I have family members there still who have friends who work at those power plants - and EMP basically would have left those plants almost untouched - the turbines and almost all the control equipment in the mid-90's was very old fashioned - we arent talking banks of computers that were vulnerable to EMP

Also that whole area is very well watered - there are even what we call "mucklands" that are close to swamps that most likely would still be fine no matter what the drought conditions. And if there is anywhere in the Northeast that could take an influx of people and be able to feed them its there.

and there are a lot of hunters and veterans in the area that would be assisting in keeping order

It is mentioned in Challenge magazine as well - the module about the oil in PA talks about the area in some length

I haven't seen a true drought here in my 50 years (this Saturday) of living here (minus the time I served with The 10th). In fact, I think that the nuke strikes at Chicago (on both the East and West sides) would cause just the OPPOSITE. The strikes (which would destroy BOTH canals that connect the Mississippi & the Great Lakes) would bring a cloud of debris that would INCREASE the snowfall for that winter and drive summer temps down. This would require all the OH, PA and NY farmers in the lee shores of Lake Erie to switch to cold weather crops like winter wheat, potatoes, and alfalfa in order to prevent crop loss. This would persist all the way down to I80 West where the drought would start (because you enter a different climatic region there).

This is a result of the region along the lake being in the "Lake Effect Zone" where the Lakes have a big effect on weather. We get some of the highest snow totals in the US and have only an average of 6 direct sunlight hours per day throughout the year (A reason I use to argue with "West Coasties" who claim solar is the energy solution for the whole US). Our temps range from 100 F in the summer to -30 F in the winter. We can get snow as early as September and as late as May. Our winds are on average MUCH HIGHER than the rest of PA or NY. This is why there are so many sailboats on the Great Lakes. I highly doubt that any drought would reach the North Shore of PA or the Southern Tier of NY. In fact, I think we would be more likely to experience a "Year Without Summer" like when Krakatoa erupted.

[Olefin]

I haven't seen a true drought here in my 50 years (this Saturday) of living here (minus the time I served with The 10th). In fact, I think that the nuke strikes at Chicago (on both the East and West sides) would cause just the OPPOSITE. The strikes (which would destroy BOTH canals that connect the Mississippi & the Great Lakes) would bring a cloud of debris that would INCREASE the snowfall for that winter and drive summer temps down. This would require all the OH, PA and NY farmers in the lee shores of Lake Erie to switch to cold weather crops like winter wheat, potatoes, and alfalfa in order to prevent crop loss. This would persist all the way down to I80 West where the drought would start (because you enter a different climatic region there).

This is a result of the region along the lake is in the "Lake Effect Zone" where the Lakes have a big effect on weather. We get some of the highest snow totals in the US and have only an average of 6 direct sunlight hours per day throughout the year (A reason I use to argue with "West Coasties" who claim solar is the energy solution for the whole US). Our temps range from 100 F in the summer to -30 F in the winter. We can get snow as early as September and as late as May. Our winds are on average MUCH HIGHER than the rest of PA or NY. This is why there are so many sailboats on the Great Lakes. I highly doubt that any drought would reach the North Shore of PA or the Southern Tier of NY. In fact, I think we would be more likely to experience a "Year Without Summer" like when Krakatoa erupted.

Nice to see a fellow veteran of the fun winters we used to get in Western NY - 21 inches of snow and the schools open on time - and I was a paper boy growing up and can attest to both the bitter cold and the early and late snow we used to get

[swaghauler]

As for agriculture, the big issue is moving the water for irrigation. Without fuel many pumps will be useless, and without electricity, the rest won't be any good either.
That said, there's been ways of shifting bulk amounts of water for nearly as long as organised agriculture has existed. The more modern methods are just a lot more efficient than a chain of buckets or windmills.
Certainly some areas would have to be abandoned at least in the short term for crops, although may still see some use as pasture, provided water could be provided for stock. Establishing a low elevation stock watering point is definitely a lot easier though than irrigating the entire field.

Realistically, it doesn't take much to work out what the Lakes would look like post nuke - only have to look back to the first half of the 20th century.
I'd imagine there wouldn't be too many refugee camps in the area either - all able bodied people would quickly find work tilling fields, digging irrigation ditches or refurbishing/making old style farm equipment. Many may even be put to use pulling plows and other equipment given the limited number of suitable draft animals compared to even the 1950's.

The big problem is feeding and housing the influx of people in the first twelve months or so.

You really need to look at Northeastern Ohio and Northwestern PA and you will see that NO issues with water exist. In Crawford County where I live, there are FIVE large (miles in length) freshwater lakes and THREE Creeks with a size ranging from 20 to 30 feet across and depths of lows in the 3 foot range to more than 30 feet deep depending on the time of year. We AVERAGE 100 INCHES of snow every winter. We are 50 miles from Lake Erie and are subject to "Lake Effect" weather. Water is NO ISSUE here (except when there's TOO MUCH of it... like last week).

Crawford County is also home to nearly 18 THOUSAND Amish Farmers across 7 distinct "Churches/Congregations" (which is how Amish Communities identify themselves). Many of the survival skills I have talked about here like my posts on tanning and rendering fat were learned from my Amish neighbors. The manufacture of "old style" farming equipment is ALIVE AND WELL here. The Amish have plenty of draft animals and so do their "English" neighbors. This is because some things are just easier to do using large animals like draft horses. Forest logging comes to mind immediately. So does plowing wetlands where a tractor would just bog down. There is NO SHORTAGE of "old school" farm equipment in this region.

Our farms are also divergent from the large farms seen in the midwestern US. The average farm is less than 500 acres and is farmed by a single family. These "hobby farms," as the US dept. of Agriculture calls them, often use older equipment that was handed down to them. When I farmed, I used a 6-cylinder diesel Cockshutt (made in Canada) and a 2-cylinder gas Farmall both from the 1950's (a 1956 and a 1958). They were easy to fix with screws and baling wire and ran just fine since the days when my GRANDFATHER bought them. All of my equipment was from the 50's and 60's and it was NOT THE EXCEPTION in the county. Those old two-strokes will burn ANYTHING (including fuel oil). Most of our residents don't have access to cable TV (which is why Dish and Direct TV figure prominently here) or internet beyond the likes of Hughesnet or Windstream Dial-up. I'm lucky to have Armstrong Cable (I'm at the end of their line) and my neighbors come here IF they need broadband. The Gas company STOPS three houses down from me and most of my neighbors use Fuel Oil or Propane to cook and heat with. Almost ALL of us have wood burning stoves to heat our houses (because other fuels are too expensive to use all winter). Our power fails during the winter storms and it can take DAYS to restore so we all have generators. Most of them are multi-fuel, running on propane but switchable to diesel in a pinch. Mine is Natural Gas with Propane Backup.

If you consider all of these things, you can see that we will fare better than the average during the Twilight War.

[Olefin]

Completely agree with you about the areas around the Lakes - there is no way on earth there will be drought in those area - there is just too much water in the Great Lakes and too much lake effect snow to have the "Howling Wilderness winter drought" occur at all in those areas - basically Northeastern Ohio, Northwestern PA and Western and Central NY from the Lakes to the mountains between NY and PA is going to be its usual buried in snow and well watered no matter what happens in the rest of the country - ditto a lot of Michigan as well.

And there was a lot of industry in Western NY even into the late 90's - my hometown had a very large machine shop for instance that supplied Ford with parts that just has "hey lets make mortars and mortar shells" written all over it

[swaghauler]

There is no standing US Navy presence on the Great Lakes are there? Canadian Navy?

I know there are a few USCG Ice Breakers but thats all I know of...

The only boo I have seen on Canada after 2000 shows Quebec being separatist and under France influence so that might get dicey on the tail end of the Saint Lawrence.

There is ONE warship homeported on Lake Erie. The Brigg Niagra, a veteran of the War of 1812 is ported at the Erie PA Maritime Museum. She currently only sports TWO of her original EIGHTEEN 32-pound Carronade (a short barrelled lighter weight artillery piece) and NEITHER of her TWO 12-Pound Long Barrel Cannon. Both Cannon and half a dozen of her Carronades are located in the maritime museum and COULD be loaded back on board. Her Draft of 10.5ft/3.2m would enable her to travel everywhere on the Great Lakes and she is FULLY modernized and Coast Guard Certified.

Check her out for yourself:

www.flagshipniagra.org

Swag

[Legbreaker]

www.flagshipniagra.org

You're missing an "a" from the link...

[rcaf_777]

There is no standing US Navy presence on the Great Lakes are there? Canadian Navy?

Both the Canadian and US Navies are restricted by the Rush-Bagot agreement which restricts the size and armaments of vessels on the Great Lakes. Which was signed at the end of War of 1812.

However the Canadian Navy dose have a fair number of Naval Reserve Divisions in the great lakes and along the Saint Lawrence. They are

In the Great Lakes

HMCS Cataraqui – Kingston Ontario
HMCS Griffon – Thunder Bay Ontario
HMCS Hunter - Windsor Ontario
HMCS Prevost – London Ontario
HMCS Star – Hamilton Ontario
HMCS York – Toronto Ontario

Along the Saint Lawrence

HMCS d'Iberville – Rimouski Quebec
HMCS Jolliet - Sept-Îles Quebec
HMCS Montcalm - Quebec City Quebec
HMCS Queen Charlotte – Charlottetown Prince Edward Island
HMCS Radisson - Trois-Rivières Quebec

[swaghauler]

You're missing an "a" from the link...

Thanks for the heads up Leg. The one damned time I don't test the link!

Let's try this again.

www.flagshipniagara.org

Ok, the link works now.

Swag.

[swaghauler]

Both the Canadian and US Navies are restricted by the Rush-Bagot agreement which restricts the size and armaments of vessels on the Great Lakes. Which was signed at the end of War of 1812.

However the Canadian Navy dose have a fair number of Naval Reserve Divisions in the great lakes and along the Saint Lawrence. They are

In the Great Lakes

HMCS Cataraqui – Kingston Ontario
HMCS Griffon – Thunder Bay Ontario
HMCS Hunter - Windsor Ontario
HMCS Prevost – London Ontario
HMCS Star – Hamilton Ontario
HMCS York – Toronto Ontario

Along the Saint Lawrence

HMCS d'Iberville – Rimouski Quebec
HMCS Jolliet - Sept-Îles Quebec
HMCS Montcalm - Quebec City Quebec
HMCS Queen Charlotte – Charlottetown Prince Edward Island
HMCS Radisson - Trois-Rivières Quebec

I have seen some of these ships on the lake. You guys use them like Coast Guard Cutters on occasion. They'd still be a major force on the lakes armed with heavy MGs and light autocannon.

I could see someone taking the two "non-demilled" 20mm autocannon off the USS Little Rock and the 40mm Cannons off the USS The Sullivans (at the Buffalo Naval Museum) and putting them on a larger fishing boat.

[swaghauler]

Completely agree with you about the areas around the Lakes - there is no way on earth there will be drought in those area - there is just too much water in the Great Lakes and too much lake effect snow to have the "Howling Wilderness winter drought" occur at all in those areas - basically Northeastern Ohio, Northwestern PA and Western and Central NY from the Lakes to the mountains between NY and PA is going to be its usual buried in snow and well watered no matter what happens in the rest of the country - ditto a lot of Michigan as well.

And there was a lot of industry in Western NY even into the late 90's - my hometown had a very large machine shop for instance that supplied Ford with parts that just has "hey lets make mortars and mortar shells" written all over it

I too think that the Great Lakes and Canada East of the Chicago strikes would really suffer from an extended "nuclear winter" instead of a drought. Initially, the survivors of Cleveland, Erie, and Buffalo would face starvation as food shipments stopped (due to a lack of trucking). After the power goes out and no natural gas is flowing to those places, the next issue becomes freezing to death in the extreme cold of the nuclear winter. I think the urban centers will "depopulate" fairly quickly.

[Legbreaker]

I too think that the Great Lakes and Canada East of the Chicago strikes would really suffer from an extended "nuclear winter" instead of a drought. Initially, the survivors of Cleveland, Erie, and Buffalo would face starvation as food shipments stopped (due to a lack of trucking). After the power goes out and no natural gas is flowing to those places, the next issue becomes freezing to death in the extreme cold of the nuclear winter. I think the urban centers will "depopulate" fairly quickly.

Very plausible, even probable. Local supplies of gas, etc will only last so long. Once they're exhausted....

[rcaf_777]

I have seen some of these ships on the lake. You guys use them like Coast Guard Cutters on occasion. They'd still be a major force on the lakes armed with heavy MGs and light autocannon.

Naval Reserve Divisions are what they call Stone Frigates they have no ship assigned to them. Some of these division do have jetties and are located near boat/sailing clubs.

Those vessels you see are the Kingston-class coastal defence vessels which are used occasionally for naval reserve training on the great lakes. They were built from 1994-1999 their homeports are Halifax, Nova Scotia and Victoria Brtish Columbia. Not sure what would happen to them in TW. Possibly used as minesweeper or for training.

However, you could see the older Porte Class Gate Vessels or Bay Class Minesweepers, both were replaced by the Kingston Class. Both could be used in the great lakes for Naval Training using a Naval Divison as a homeport.

Also, it should be noted that the Canadian Coast Guard has a further 21 research and rescue boats on the great lakes. These are all unarmed as Coast Guard is not a classified as a Law enforcement agency as USCG is. Their main duties include s marine search and rescue, communication, navigation aids, marine pollution response and icebreaking.

The RCMP has a two marine craft in great lakes and St Lawerance too.

[kalos72]

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

[swaghauler]

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

[Legbreaker]

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

[rcaf_777]

rcaf_77 - Do you know the names/classes and where they were stationed?

Any thoughts on T2K deployment?

Which ships are you talking about? the Bay and Porte Class?

[rcaf_777]

The vessel I encountered on Lake Ontario near Toronto was called the Anticosti. This was in 1994. She wasn't very big, but she had guns (20mm on the foredeck and 2 .50's on the bridge wings). She was headed North towards the St. Lawrence at a leisurely 8 knots.

HMCS Anticosti (MSA 110) was an Anticosti-class minesweeper that served in the Canadian Forces from 1989 to 2000. Originally an oil rig support vessel, she was purchased in 1989 and saw service until the entry of the newer Kingston-class coastal defence vessels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Anticosti_(MSA_110)

She was one of two the other being HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

HMCS Moresby (MSA 112)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Moresby_(MSA_112)

[kalos72]

One thing here thats still confusing to me.

When you look up the Corps of Engineers they are all military like. Listed under DoD, divisions, etc.

But how would you know what units were responsible for say the SOO Locks?

Are they based/organized like other military units? How can I tell who was assigned those locks come 1996/1997?

[WallShadow]

Given the inaccessibility of the lakes to Pact naval forces, it would seem almost impossible for any armed military vessel to remain there during the war. Icebreakers, rescue vessels and the like sure, but nothing with anything heavier than a machinegun or two I'd think. All the bigger, more militarily capable vessels would surely be better utilised where there's an actual threat.

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Niagara-Specifications.pdf

[kalos72]

The basis for yet another campaign hook...

In some areas, people with the correct skills weren't even enough. Yes a good mechanic might be worth his weight in gold, but one with years working on the M2 Bradley you are trying to repair is worth TEN TIMES his weight in gold.

So for things like the lock system on the Mississippi River or the ones along the Great Lakes and St lawrence Seaway, experience on those specific systems wasn't something that could be taught so the Titan Project Team needed to figure out a way to find and recruit the experienced staff it needed and then support them until the Project was kicked off.

Working on a DoD sanctioned project, even if Top Secret, Titan had access to all the information from the US Corps of Engineers regarding the US locks. They had engineering plans, technical details. Emergency Contingency Plans, everything historically that was relevant to the Project.

In addition, they had access to the personnel. Considering all the things the US Corps of Engineers were responsible for either building or maintaining by the 1990’s, they were the perfect source of skilled personnel with the perfect experiences.

In 1994, in cooperation with the Army Corps of Engineers and the DoD, Titan Enterprises recruited and organized teams of veteran engineers that would spend the next 2 years working with current USACE staff responsible for the maintenance and operation of several key USACE divisions to provide the Project with the necessary skills to continue operation and maintenance in accordance with the Project guidelines.

This “mentoring program” also extended to the Canadian agencies responsible for the Canadian side of some of the areas of key interest, although that international cooperation was less involved and happened over a much shorter time period. The results were the same, Titan having skilled, knowledgeable staff able to support all the prime areas of interest for the Project by 1996.

Copies of of relevant plans/details/schematics, spare parts and necessary tools and equipment were stockpiled for each of those locations, awaiting the staff to begin the rebuilding process.

[Legbreaker]

Ahem.
USS Niagara, Erie, PA, armed with 4x32# carronades. Fully reconstructed and operational in 1990. Hell, even loaded with langrage (scrap iron, bolts, chain links), it would beat hell out of most modern construction on the Lakes.
http://www.flagshipniagara.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Niagara-Specifications.pdf

Well, yes, but not exactly modern though are they... Anyone with even a hand held grenade launcher will usually have better accuracy and effective range than a ship with even the heaviest carronade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade#Range

[rcaf_777]

One thing here thats still confusing to me.

When you look up the Corps of Engineers they are all military like. Listed under DoD, divisions, etc.

But how would you know what units were responsible for say the SOO Locks?

Are they based/organized like other military units? How can I tell who was assigned those locks come 1996/1997?


The Corps of Engineers is the world largest Civil Works Organization, The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is organized geographically into eight permanent divisions all reporting directly to the HQ. Within each division, there are several districts. Districts are defined by watershed boundaries for civil works projects and by political boundaries for military projects.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Corps_of_Engineers

https://www.usace.army.mil/

Great Lakes and Ohio River Division (LRD), located in Cincinnati. Reaches from the St Lawrence Seaway, across the Great Lakes, down the Ohio River Valley to the Tennessee and Cumberland rivers. Covers 355,300 square miles (920,000 km2), parts of 17 states. Serves 56 million people. Its seven districts are located in Buffalo, Chicago, Detroit, Louisville, Nashville, Pittsburgh, and Huntington, West Virginia. The division commander serves on two national and international decision-making bodies: co-chair of the Lake Superior, Niagara, and Ontario/St Lawrence Seaway boards of control; and the Mississippi River Commission.

I believe Great Lakes and Ohio River Division (LRD) would be commanded by a General of some sort

[kalos72]

I have done that basic research, thank you. :)

But really, if there is a General, of what unit? There isn't anything in any ORBAT I have found that shows where USACE gets its people or how they are organized. Surely 8 people in New Orleans aren't doing all the work for that district?

Do they use regular Army Engineers? Are certain US ARMY engineering units assigned to support them or a district?

[Legbreaker]

And are those units and/or personnel liable to be pulled away from their peacetime roles and thrown into combat support positions over in Europe or wherever....?

[WallShadow]

Well, yes, but not exactly modern though are they... Anyone with even a hand held grenade launcher will usually have better accuracy and effective range than a ship with even the heaviest carronade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade#Range
Quite correct, if Niagara was expected to go on patrol just as she stands, unmodified.
However...
Seeing as how she is a part of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania's Historical Commission, I could readily see her impressed into State service as an adjunct of the 28th Division PA National Guard, or the PA State Police, or Fish and Game Commission, or lots of other job slots as deemed necessary for the continued operation of the Commonwealth. And if a few National Guard M2s and/or surplus mortars or recoilless rifles are allotted for self-defense against smugglers, drug runners, or gang activity, that'd be all right, too.

[unkated]

... But from what I've seen on Discovery Channel, Science Channel, Smithsonian Channel, etc, the rest of the Great Lakes are more like a small ocean in currents, water conditions, and especially, weather.


As we all begin to hum The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. :-)

I don't think they'd put a carrier on the Great Lakes, though -- you couldn't get them there in the first place



No, but they have built them:

USS Sable (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sable_(IX-81)) and USS Wolverine, used on the lakes during WW2 to train carrier pilots, so real carriers could be at sea. Coal-fired, and paddle-wheeled.

Now, these (if reproduced) would not be capable of handling jets. But something similar with landing space for a few helicopters with some space could be built easily enough atop a lake freighter. It could be stationed where needed as a mobile offshore refueling/rearming base...

Uncle Ted

[Legbreaker]

And if a few National Guard M2s and/or surplus mortars or recoilless rifles are allotted for self-defense against smugglers, drug runners, or gang activity, that'd be all right, too.
The reason why carronades are inaccurate? Their high, arcing fire much like a mortar (not to mention the impossible task of actually moving the weapon on the ship to track targets). Basically they're a form of mortar but with a somewhat flatter trajectory and therefore really only useful on calm waters.
Anything that can be swivelled around quickly and track targets independently to the movement of the ship however would very likely be quite useful. Mortars though I think are best reserved for land mounts or shore bombardment (although could be used if the conditions allow).Now, these (if reproduced) would not be capable of handling jets. But something similar with landing space for a few helicopters with some space could be built easily enough atop a lake freighter. It could be stationed where needed as a mobile offshore refueling/rearming base...

Can't see the resources being spent myself. Early on while jets are available they're virtually useless. Later and there's more pressing needs.

[rcaf_777]

I have done that basic research, thank you. :)

But really, if there is a General, of what unit? There isn't anything in any ORBAT I have found that shows where USACE gets its people or how they are organized. Surely 8 people in New Orleans aren't doing all the work for that district?

Do they use regular Army Engineers? Are certain US ARMY engineering units assigned to support them or a district?is

First of all of this information, you can find on the USACE website

The Corps in employs around 37,000 persons both military and civilian the military pers are from the engineer's branch. Now the number for units and breakdown of each vary. In USACE the districts are the smallest unit the number of persons in each district depending on the size and what the Corps operations in each district. As an example, the Corps operates the Clarence Cannon Dam on the Salt River at Monroe City, Missouri. So how people work at a power dam? Also, The Mississippi Valley Division’s navigation responsibilities include planning and constructing navigation channels, locks and dams, and dredging to maintain channel depths of the harbours and inland waterways within its 370,000-square-mile boundary. The division operates and maintains 4,200+ miles of navigable channels, 62 locks, 51 shallow-draft ports and seven deep-draft ports. In partnership with local port authorities, District personnel oversee dredging and construction projects at numerous ports and harbours.

Now the Corps also has purely military units like the 249th Engineer Battalion (Prime Power) which provides commercial-level power to military units and federal relief organizations during operations. Additionally, the commander serves as the Commandant of the U.S. Army Prime Power School, the institution responsible for the development of Army and Navy power generation specialists. The organization is charged with the rapid provision of Army generators to support worldwide requirements.

The Corps also has a number of persons you deal with planning and construction of major public works project, this includes hydrological data capture and surveying operations.

[Olefin]

FYI one thing you have to keep in mind that in the timeline there would be at least two and possibly three steam fired coal ships still in operation on the Great Lakes

SS City of Midland 41 was a four thousand ton train ferry that in our real world was converted to a barge in late 1997 - but with the need for transport and the oil shortage most likely would have still been operational - and she operates on coal, not oil

SS Badger is still operating on the Great Lakes today - again a 4000 ton coal powered steam fired train ferry

SS Spartan was used as a parts ship for the other two - but might be able to be made functional

Those two (or three) ships would be hugely of use to either CivGov or MilGov - and are more than big enough to mount a decent amount of armament on them

and these are big ships - they had staterooms and other accommodations - they could haul 600 or more in comfort - and probably a lot more in less comfort - i.e. troops and their vehicles

Not sure if they have been discussed here before - they are home ported in Wisconsin and go back and forth to Michigan

[Vespers War]

FYI one thing you have to keep in mind that in the timeline there would be at least two and possibly three steam fired coal ships still in operation on the Great Lakes

SS City of Midland 41 was a four thousand ton train ferry that in our real world was converted to a barge in late 1997 - but with the need for transport and the oil shortage most likely would have still been operational - and she operates on coal, not oil

SS Badger is still operating on the Great Lakes today - again a 4000 ton coal powered steam fired train ferry

SS Spartan was used as a parts ship for the other two - but might be able to be made functional

Those two (or three) ships would be hugely of use to either CivGov or MilGov - and are more than big enough to mount a decent amount of armament on them

and these are big ships - they had staterooms and other accommodations - they could haul 600 or more in comfort - and probably a lot more in less comfort - i.e. troops and their vehicles

Not sure if they have been discussed here before - they are home ported in Wisconsin and go back and forth to Michigan

City of Midland 41's last voyage was in November 1988, though - she spent 9 years in dock before being converted to a barge. Depending on the level of preservation work done on her, she may have been unable to be economically returned to service well before she was converted to a barge.

That said, the Twilight War could have seriously changed how vessels were retired and brought back into service, so with that said, here are some other coal-powered vessels that theoretically could have been of use:

Another laid-up steam vessel is SS City of Milwaukee, a 2,942-ton car ferry that sailed from 1930-1982 and is preserved as a museum in Manistee with her steam engines intact.

There's also SS Milwaukee Clipper, a 4,272-ton car ferry preserved in Muskegon, which sailed 1904-1970 and has been a museum ship since 1977.

On the Canadian side of things, SS Keewatin is a 3,856-ton passenger and freight ship that operated 1907-1966 and is a museum ship at Port McNicoll, Ontario, but until 2011 she was at Douglas, Michigan.

One that's been scrapped but might have still been around in a T2K timeline is SS Chief Wawatam, the last hand-fed coal steamer on the lakes. A 2,990 ton train ferry and icebreaker, it sailed from 1911-1984, was converted to a barge in 1989, and scrapped in 2009. One of its triple-expansion engines is on display at the Wisconsin Maritime Museum in Manitowoc.

Finally, the two Detroit to Boblo Island ferries, SS Columbia and SS Ste. Claire, would also be potentially in use. They operated from 1902 and 1910 until 1991. They're much smaller (968 and 890 tons, respectively) and passenger-only, but could make for useful transports.

[swaghauler]

They have a fairly robust assortment of Coast Guard ships that are specially designed for use on the Great lakes. They include...

USCGC Alder 225ft Multipurpose Cutter.
USCGC Buckthorn 100ft Buoy Tender
USCGC Bramble 180ft WWII Buoy Tender
USCGC Mackinaw 240ft Heavy Icebreaker/Cutter

and no less than six 140ft Icebreaking Tugs:
USCGC Biscayne Bay
USCGC Bristol Bay
USCGC Katmai Bay
USCGC Mobile Bay
USCGC Morrow Bay
USCGC Neah Bay

Combined with the two dozen lake freighters (mostly bulk haulers), there is a lot of available shipping on the Great Lakes.

[Olefin]

and the coal powered steamers would still be working even if all the other vessels were sidelined due to lack of fuel - and given their size they could carry a pretty good amount of jury rigged armament without impacting their cargo and passenger capability

[rcaf_777]

This could happen too

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/uss-little-rock-crew-embracing-being-stuck-in-montreal-1.4500966