Why no China?

[kalos72]

Has anyone spent anytime on the Chinese forces?

I find it blaringly obvious that China is totally absent from ANY detailed works.

[Legbreaker]

Well, since the Soviets basically blasted them off the face of the planet with nukes, does it really matter that much? Whatever's left surely can't be all that organised, or in significantly large numbers.
Looking at the timeline info, it would appear China suffered very, very badly and in effect knocked back to the stone age. A radioactive, badly cratered stone age at that.

[kalos72]

Is there a list of China nuke targets?

They had like 1 million troops back then I think...I doubt they get nuked that badly.

[Legbreaker]

No list anywhere in the books.
In the West, they are used sparingly at first, and for the first week are used only against troop concentrations no further than 50 kilometres from the Soviet border. In the Far East, however, they are used on a massive scale. Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centres still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared. Ballistic missile attacks on Soviet population centres are frustrated by an active and efficient ABM system, and the Soviet Air Defence Command massacres the handful of Chinese bombers that attempted low-level penetration raids. Within a week, the Chinese riposte is spent, but Soviet attacks continue. The Chinese communication and transportation system, already stretched to the breaking point, disintegrates. The roads are choked with refugees fleeing from the remaining cities, all of them potential targets. China begins the rapid slide into anarchy and civil disorder.
Note that all starts on the 9th of July 1997 and we hear nothing more about China in the timeline. The implication is China's war is over for all practical purposes.
We do see in the Survivors Guide to the UK that "Canton and the port of Hong Kong have been destroyed by small nuclear strikes" - the UK 6th Infantry Division (heavily damaged in the earlier strikes) withdrew there.

[Olefin]

Actually Chinese forces are mentioned a couple of other places - the retreat by the US Army into Korea happened after they had met up with Chinese forces and then were attacked in the same series of nuclear attacks that destroyed the Chinese forces

And the Soviet Army books detail that they are still fighting marauders in the areas they occupied - those marauders are most likely remnant Chinese units which may or may not have some sense of organization left to them - or may be like the Soviet units that fell apart in Europe and are basically just bandits with better weapons

There most likely are Chinese units that are still intact and functional - but completely cut off from any higher command and thus are basically functioning on their own - i.e. in places the Soviets would not have nuked - in that way they may be like the 43rd as described in Last Submarine - still a military unit, still with a functional command structure but not answering to anyone but their commander

[Olefin]

Actually one interesting idea would be if Taiwan had re-invaded to try to establish an area of control based on a surviving small port in an attempt to rebuild control over China or at least part of it - their military would be intact - the biggest question for them would be fuel supplies

[kalos72]

I just find it very odd that, with the largest military in the world, they simply vanished into marauder groups.

I found about 8 targets, all port cities really. But other writing has Hong Kong getting spared..."major coastal cities such as Shanghai, Guangzhou, Ningbo, Nanjing, Gingdao, Tianjin, Ginghuangdao, and Dalian".

"Inexplicably, Hong Kong and Macau escaped nuclear destruction, but today are near ghost towns and pirate refuges".

Anyone have any ORBATS for China?

[Rainbow Six]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

On July 9, the first tactical strikes against the NATO armies in Poland were launched. In the Far East much less discrimination was used against the Chinese. The large scale use of nuclear weapons ended the war in China. The Chinese were literally blasted back to the Middle Ages. With civilian and military authority gone, the Chinese slipped back into a system of warlord-type states. The end of the war in the East allowed the Soviets to release forces that were badly needed back in Europe. With the war over in the East. many of the divisions there did not look kindly on the new orders commining (sic) them to another round of combat. A wave of desertion and rebellion again swept the Soviet forces in the East.

That would suggest to me that they did indeed get nuked that badly and also (imo) supports the possibility of some Chinese units still being intact but operating autonomously. It also suggests (imo) that there might also be significant numbers of Soviet troops on Chinese soil also acting autonomously. It's probably not too much of a stretch to suppose that some marauder 'armies' may be made of Soviet and Chinese troops.

There's also a few references to China in Rae's Korean sourcebook all of which, as far as I can tell, support the view that China has been hit harder than any other major belligerent (Rae, feel free to correct me if that's wrong).

Others' mileage may vary of course. With regards Taiwan, I'm not aware it's mentioned anywhere in any published source other than a one line mention in Rae's Korean Sourcebook that sheds no light on whether their military is intact or not.

Re: Hong Kong, Legbreaker's earlier quote from the SGUK confirms that it was nuked but only relatively lightly.

[shrike6]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

[Rainbow Six]

One thing that you guys haven't touched on in this is that the Soviets called in the Warsaw Pact nations to help against the Chinese as well. With some significant damages to the WP units sent. So it is not out of the realm of possiblity that there are East German, Polish and et al. mauraders as well in the mix.

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

[Olefin]

If there is one place you could have a completely mixed up marauder unit with just about every type of equipment and nationality you can think of its China

Just imagine a marauder unit made up of the following:

surviving Chinese troops from a unit or units that got nuked

Soviet troops that deserted or the unit fell apart from literally every nationality and location in the Soviet Union

escaped American and South Korean POW's or survivors of units that got overrun

Polish, Hungarian, Bulgarians or East Germans that said screw this and decided to either get home or go off on their own - or who were prisoners of the Chinese and escaped or were let go when everything went to hell after the nuke strikes

Gurkhas from the British unit that got nuked near the Yalu

North Korean's that are survivors of the units that got driven north of the Yalu and decided they wanted nothing more to do with the war

and using the Korean Sourcebook you can add in possibly Australian, New Zealand or Japanese troops that were POW's and busted out of some godforsaken POW camp in North China

[RN7]

One of the earlier issues of Challenge (I can't remember which one specifically but it's probably somewhere between 28-33) had an article on the USSR (V1 timeline) which had some passing references to China. The most salient quote is probably this (it's also the last mention of China in the article)

Challenge 31 Page 4

[Olefin]

Keep in mind the that Challenge Article may or may not be not be exactly canon (i.e. some what it describes about the Ukraine and other areas) - but it is a very good description of what happened to China from the nuclear strikes

[Olefin]

Has anyone ever even tried to put together a list of Chinese nuclear targets?

[shrike6]

Yeah, that's a valid point. The V2 Soviet Vehicle guide mentions Polish and (I think) Bulgarian units trying to make their way home, some of whom could have turned marauder, and I'm sure at some point in time there was a whole thread about the East Germans.

It's not impossible you could also have British and American marauders, the former from the 6th Division, the latter from the units that reached the Yalu.

As well as other nationalities alot of countries were not really covered in the book. So its entirely possible that the Phillipines or some other third world countries, like countries of Latin America, sent some troops to Korea to help the US as well. So there may be a handful of escaped POWs from El Salvador as well for instance. Cause the Korean War had more than the Koreas, China and US in it.

[Olefin]

Some information is available online to give a general idea of China's forces

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/pla-org.htm

Looked thru the information there and found some stuff that could help put together a picture of the Chinese Army

The Chinese military divides its units into two categories, Category A and Category B. Category A covers "full-training units" with complete armaments and full establishment. They have modern armaments, and undergo full-time, high-intensity military training. Category B units are "non-full-training units" which have out-of-date armaments, are under-manned, have low budgets, receive less training, often participate in productive labor, and have to have their weapons replaced and receive basic training before they can go into battle. China's Category B units are similar to the US National Guard.

As of the late 1980s the strength of the Category A units of the Chinese ground force was about 700,000, grouped into seven rapid response group armies (the 1st Army, 13th Army, 21st Army, 27th Army, 38th Army, 39th Army, and the 54th Army). Category B (Category 1 reserve) units of the Chinese ground force were in 19 group armies, 60 motorized infantry divisions, and some independent artillery divisions (or brigades).

As of the late 1980s main forces included about 35 group armies, comprising 118 infantry divisions, 13 armored divisions, 17 artillery divisions, 16 antiaircraft artillery divisions, plus 71 independent regiments and 21 independent battalions of mostly support troops (artillery, antiaircraft artillery, signal, antichemical warfare, reconnaissance, and engineer).

Regional forces consisted of 73 divisions of border defense and garrison troops plus 140 independent regiments.

As a result of the troop reductions announced in the July 1998 White Paper on National Defense, a number of PLA Divisions have been transfered to the PAP. By the late 1990s the Army had been reduced to 24-25 Group Armies incorporating a total of 90 divisions. Of these Armies, 17 are deployed in the north and northeast, positioned to repel Russia from the north, and Japan and Western powers from the east and over the Korean Peninsula.

People's Armed Police (PAP) was created in 1983 when the PLA transferred most of its internal police and border responsibilities to the new force. The PAP is still primarily composed of demobilized PLA personnel. As a result of the 1,000,000-man reduction in the PLA in the 1980s, the People's Armed Police grew by about 500,000 troops, to a total of roughly 800,000.

[Olefin]

An order of Battle I found at the same web site - UI means unidentified unit - i.e. they didnt know the unit designation

[Olefin]

from the same link above as well as other sites including the wikipedia entry which heavily draws on Warden, Robert L.; Savada, Andrea; Dolan, Ronald;; Library of Congress, Federal Research Division (1988). "China: A Country Study". pp. 582–3

Under the system used in the 1980's that the game designers based the Chinese Army on for the game a field army consisted of three partially motorized infantry divisions and two regiments of artillery and anti-aircraft artillery.

Each field army division had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion. Each division was supposed to have its own armor and artillery but there was very little information to actually show was actual equipment levels they had.

In 1987 the new, main-force group armies typically included 46,300 soldiers in up to four divisions, believed to include infantry, armor, artillery, air defense, airborne, and air support elements. Those mobile armies were supposed to be mobile and capable of combined arms operations but because there was a lack of mechanization they still mostly consisted of foot infantry, usually transported by trucks at best, with armor and artillery support.

The 13 armored divisions each had 3 regiments and 240 main battle tanks but most didnt have much in the way of mechanized infantry support or APC's and tanks were used often as mobile artillery. There was some self-propelled artillery but rocket launchers were more often what was used for fire support.

Engineering equipment was available but there wasnt a lot of mine-laying or mine-clearing equipment which left the Chinese formations vulnerable to mine fields.

Artillery was mostly towed guns, howitzers and truck mounted multiple rocket launchers

Regional forces - i.e. independent divisions - were used as garrison units, mostly being static units to defend cities, coastlines or borders, and were artillery heavy but lacking in armor or transport. They were also used to train militia as well

Keep in mind that there are close to three million members of the People's Liberation Army Militia as well

Thus given the size of their military and adding in the Police and Militia you can see why no attempt to ever release a Chinese Army book was ever done - especially considering by 2000 there wasnt a Chinese Army anymore

[Olefin]

So as an example lets use the 205th Infantry Division - this is a unit that would have definitely been part of the fighting with the Soviets in 1995-1996

Originally the 28th Division the division was renamed as the 205th Infantry Division in 1985 and transferred to the 28th Army after the 69th Army Corps was disbanded. It consisted of the following units:

613th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
614th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
615th Motorized Infantry Regiment;
Tank Regiment which would have had around 80 main battle tanks - most likely Type 59 and Type 59-1 tanks (i.e. a Chinese copy of the T-54A)
Artillery Regiment;
Anti-aircraft Artillery Regiment.

The division was a Category A division and stationed with the 28th Group Army at Shanxi District in the city of Datong.

If you were creating a history for it you could have it involved in any stage of the Soviet Chinese War and possibly be one of the units that got nuked by the Soviets during the destruction of the Chinese Army. Thus you could have men from this unit be used as a basis for a marauder group in a campaign based in China or Mongolia

[kalos72]

My drive to figure out China is that I am working on an idea for the reunification of Korea against the Russians and if there are still viable Chinese units to support the endeavor.

I can't imagine there aren't any units left, however their loyalty of course is questionable.

[Legbreaker]

My understanding is any units still in something resembling one piece are in the southern parts of the country. The northern parts, which abuts Korea, are pock marked with nuclear craters and ghosts.

[Olefin]

I would say that there would be remnant units in Northern China - face it there were Soviet units that got nuked pretty badly as well - some of them were completely destroyed others were taken down to very low levels (as were American units - 2nd Armored for instance)

Thus could there be functioning remnant units - yes - but there is no higher authority for them to answer to except for various warlords

I would say that if there is any functioning armies or divisions that are left that Legbreaker is correct in that they would be in the central to southern areas of China away from the areas that got nuked - and mostly they would be garrison type units - as any Category A units or units that got updated to Category A during the war were probably all at the front fighting the Soviets and pretty much got nuked - example would be the Army reserve division that is on Hainan - most likely it came thru intact

[Olefin]

FYI - I think that if there ever really is anything on China that would even be close to approaching a sourcebook it either needs to be one that is more like a historical document - i.e. close to stuff that Chico and others have done trying to make a history of the war - or it needs to be a July 2000 or April 2001 China and show more what is still left and not what they had

i.e. not here is the 125 divisions that China used to have - its more like here are the 20 remnant divisions and/or warlord forces that are left

[Legbreaker]

And those Divisions are probably at around 10% strength at best I'd think. Certainly not capable of offensive action, and probably barely able to defend themselves against a decent sized marauder band.

[kalos72]

I guess I am just staggered by the assumptions,with not alot of canon to go from, that 3.7m Chinese troops all got nuked to 10%.

120ish divisions got nuked? Thats more tonnage then landed on the whole US...assuming one nuke per division.

And now the Soviets hold the entire country with like 20 divisions?

IDK, not trying to be a dick but that all seems REALLY convenient vs RL factual.

Now losing central command and breaking into marauding little kingdoms? Sure...but with no capacity to defend themselves at 10% total prewar manpower? I cant get there...

[Legbreaker]

I guess I am just staggered by the assumptions, with not alot of canon to go from, that 3.7m Chinese troops all got nuked to 10%.
That 10% is my suggestion for those few units still in the north. Note that's not really all that different to those in Europe, with some "Divisions" down from roughly 10,000+ men to perhaps a few hundred - worse than 10% left.

120ish divisions got nuked? Thats more tonnage then landed on the whole US...assuming one nuke per division.
The Soviets were not mucking about. Remember what was happening in July 1997 - the Pact forces were being pushed back on all fronts and Nato was on Soviet soil with not much in front of them to stop them from continuing.
The Soviets were looking to END their involvement on at least one front, and China being somewhat short of actual allies, was (in my opinion) the logical choice, especially as the Chinese have never had much in the way of nuclear weapons themselves to retaliate with.
Hit the Chinese HARD, inflict grievous casualties and you free up quite a few battle hardened veteran units to send west.
Another factor which may have been considered is global wind patterns. Generally any fallout from China will stay away from the USSR, however anything from Europe could impact them.
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-253.00,43.23,683

And now the Soviets hold the entire country with like 20 divisions?
I don't think they're "holding" the country, more just acting as a screen on the off chance a few Chinese units pull together something resembling an effective force.Sure...but with no capacity to defend themselves at 10% total prewar manpower? I cant get there...
Note again there's units, many of them, in Europe at or below 10%. I'm actually thinking that's a fairly high percentage for Chinese units, unless that includes local recruits and civilian support.

Another point to bear in mind is the Chinese military isn't all actual combat troops and their supply train. There's quite a large number who have virtually no combat training and are actually employed running factories, farms, acting as police, road construction, etc. Technically they're military, but in reality they're just civilians in uniform.

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind that the Soviets arent occupying all of China - far from it - in fact they hold relatively little of the country

Soviet Vehicle Guide

1st Far Eastern Front - Manchuria
2nd Far Eastern Front - Mongolia
Yalu Front - Korea

The 1st and 2nd Far Eastern Front have 13 divisions and 2 brigades between them, the Yalu front three divisions, a regiment and a brigade

So basically they went on a mission to grab off Manchuria and expand the size of their holdings around Mongolia - not grab the whole country

1st Far Eastern Front

Most of the units just say Manchuria (23rd Motorized is in Tsitsihar (Qiqihar) Manchuria (Heilongjiang Province) along with the 100th Motorized)

2nd Far Eastern Front

11th Tank is in Mongolia fighting separatists and the three Motorized Rifle are all there too

so the vast majority of China is not occupied by the Soviets

also keep in mind that the Soviet units arent exactly undamaged either - 3rd Tank has 500 men and 2 tanks, 50th Airmobile has 200 men, 98th has 300 men, 49th Tank has 2000 men and no tanks, 91st Motorized has 200 men and no tanks

6th Tank and 34th Motorized are probably the best equipped divisions they have left in the Far East - 4000 men and 36 tanks each and both are Category I

[Legbreaker]

As you can see, the Soviet's have in some cases just 2-3% of their initial numbers, and they're the winners!

[Olefin]

Its not much of a victory when you have 200 guys still on their feet out of an entire division

FYI - one reason any book would be hard to write is the lack of information from China about that time - there is very little information out there and some of it contradicts itself - even on the TOE of what a Chinese division would have - i.e. whereas the Soviet, US, British and Kenyan forces had a lot more info to work with to get accurate sourcebooks on them

[Legbreaker]

Its not much of a victory when you have 200 guys still on their feet out of an entire division.

And that tells you the Chinese are in so much worse condition doesn't it....
If they weren't the Soviets wouldn't have withdrawn so many units. They'd probably have had to keep sending reinforcements.
The whole point of them plastering Northern China with nukes was to wipe out the Chinese forces and free up probably hundreds of thousands of troops (plus untold numbers of support units, vehicles and supplies) and send them to other theatres, mainly Europe, but I believe (without double checking) some went to the Middle East and potentially Korea.

[Olefin]

Oh I agree with you Legbreaker (look I said that and the world didnt end :D ) about the condition of the Chinese units anywhere near where the Soviet fronts were

And even if Chinese units survived intact in the south or central part of the country most likely many of them were garrison units - meaning that they would have been artillery heavy units with a lot of foot infantry - i.e. even if they still had any command and control left for China those divisions are not going to be ones you can move

and I will look thru my copy of the Soviet vehicle guide but you are right - there were definitely units that got moved after China got NUKED - definitely to Europe and I think the Middle East as well

[Legbreaker]

I'd be quite surprised if the southern units had much in the way of modern equipment, particularly artillery, armour and other vehicles. Much of that would have been required at the front (to get nuked a little later) and the "garrison" and training units equipped with cast offs and left overs.

[Olefin]

actually those units had a lot of artillery - but most of it was older artillery or fixed emplacements (i.e. coastal artillery, AA units, etc..) versus towed and mobile systems - so basically good garrison units - think German Army coastal defense divisions during WWII

[Legbreaker]

But weren't most of those emplacements on the Soviet border and therefore likely destroyed VERY early on.
Anything more mobile though is surely in the south with the 2nd and 3rd line units. Certainly wouldn't have done anyone any good up north where the old 37mm AT guns, etc just bounce off even old T-55's.

[Olefin]

A lot of the garrison units - i.e. coastal defense units - were still facing Taiwan - as well as providing security around Hong Kong and the like - so most likely there are still a good number of intact Chinese divisions in the south and central part of the country - but ones that basically have almost no armor or transport with artillery, mortars, etc. - but no real to move around except with draft animals or by foot

so while they provide a good source of security for whatever warlord they are answering to they really present no threat to what is left of the Soviet forces that are still occupying Manchuria and Mongolia

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

[Legbreaker]

For the Soviets the real threat is marauders, bandits - and the morale issues they have with their own units - i.e. desertion - to where the units start to lose unit cohesion

And no wonder either really considering they're camped out in the most heavily nuked region on the planet. My ex comes from that area, it's not the most hospitable place at the best of times. Add in radiation and the horrifically cold winters...

[Olefin]

Units originally in China but then transferred (per canon Soviet Vehicle Guide )

1st Tank Division - sent to Europe in July 1997

9th Guards Tank Division - sent to China from Europe and then brought back in 1997 (unknown date)

18th Guards Tank Division - sent to China in early 1996 and then sent back to the West in summer of 1997 to Bulgaria

27th Tank Division - sent to Far East and then back to Europe for summer 1998 offensive

34th Tank Division - sent to Far East but limited action (early 1996) then returned in summer of 1997 for Bulgarian front

31st Motorized Rifle Division - China from the start, then transferred to western Siberia to put down revolt - mid-1998

33rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East mid-1996 then sent to Europe in summer 1997 for the Bulgarian front

37th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East shortly after the war with China began then back to Leningrad after China defeated

38th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China (limited action) then Korea

70th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China then back to Europe but nuked and only 100 survivors

70th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East against China, almost destroyed, 200 survivors in Tomsk

73rd Motorized Rifle Division - committed after initial invasion into China then sent to Siberia for security mid-1997

78th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Sinkiang Western China 1996-97 and on occupation duty till mid-1998 then Siberia

FYI this is the only canon reference to the Soviets invading Sinkiang or occupying it

102nd Motorized Rifle Division - China on occupation duty 1996, then Eastern Siberia unknown date

116th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China and almost destroyed in spring offensive 1996 - survivors withdrawn to Siberia after China collapse

118th Motorized Rifle Division - Far East division part of the drive on Peking - now in Eastern Siberia since mid-1997

128th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Far East in mid-1996 then to Poland summer of 1998 and nuked and nearly destroyed

173rd Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

194th Motorized Rifle Division - in action against China 1995-1997 then to Korea

342nd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China in 1995, almost destroyed, survivors withdrawn to Western Siberia early 1998

6th Guards Air Assault Division - in China 1996 then Alaska in 1997

14th Air Assault Brigade - part of initial invasion of China sent to Austria for 1998 offensive

106th Guards Air Assault Division - part of initial invasion of China then to Poland during initial NATO offensive

203rd Air Assault - part of initial invasion of China then to Korea

63rd Naval Infantry - limited action against China then to Korea

32nd Attack Helicopter Regiment - in China when it collapsed then sent to Iran

Destroyed by the Chinese - 2 tank divisions, 12 motorized rifle divisions and 2 East German divisions

93rd Tank Division (category I) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

95th Tank Division (category II) (1995 Chinese counterattack)

47th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (survivors with the 39th GRMD in Poland) (spring offensive 1996)

68th Motorized Rifle Division (spring offensive 1996)

85th Motorized Rifle Division (1995 Chinese counterattack) (survivors incorporated into the 56th MRD)

112th Motorized Rifle Division (division cut off and lost late 1997 may be survivors - possibly destroyed by marauders/Chinese remnants?)

133rd Motorized Rifle Division - upgraded to Category I and then sent to China and lost in spring 1996 offensive

139th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to Manchuria in late 1996 and shattered almost immediately - may be survivors but no contact since 1997

146th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed late 1995 Chinese offensive by militia units

148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - unknown

160th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in 1995 Chinese counteroffensive

210th Motorized Rifle Division - destroyed in early 1996 at end of China 1995 counteroffensive

253rd Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China late 1996, survivors joined 5th Tank Division late 1998-early 1999

300th Motorized Rifle Division - sent to China from Mongolia after upgrade to category I, destroyed by China 1995 counteroffensive


Two East German divisions - dont remember date they were lost (1995?)

Mutinied and in China still - 4 motorized rifle divisions

101st Motorized Rifle Division (late 1998)

141st Motorized Rifle Division - sent into action spring of 1997 - mauled by Chinese in their last offensive - stopped answering orders - unknown location

153rd Motorized Rifle Division - almost destroyed in last Chinese offensive in mid-1997 and mutinied in late 1998

156th Motorized Rifle Division - assigned to anti-partisan activities in China late 1996 and mutinied in late 1997 - marched back to Siberia

[shrike6]

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition. Here's what the 2nd edition Soviet Vehicle Guide has in addition:

Bulgarian 5th Tank Group

Disbanded in the early 1990s, this unit was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian Tank Brigades, reinforced with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to the Chinese Front.
In early the unit commander with drew his forces from the front and began the long march home. As of 1 July 2000 the unit is a little west of Lake Baikal
Subordinate: Soviet 17th Army
Current Location Chermkovo, USSR
Manpower 300

Polish 4th "Pomeranian" MRD

The 4th was a prewar Polish Division shipped to the Far Eastern Front in late 1995 in response for troops by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of China the division was assigned to the Soviet 5th Army, where it remains.
Subordination: Soviet 5th Army
Current Location: Manchuria
MAnpower: 1000
Tanks: 5 T-55

[Legbreaker]

I figure you all are focused on 1st edition.

Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

[shrike6]

NATO Vehicle Guide 1st edition

German 29th Panzer Division/DDR 9th Panzer Division.

"The division was formed on 23 June 1996 by order of the East German government to replace one of the divisions destroyed in the Far East. It was designated 9th Panzer Division in honor of its predecessor."

German 211th Panzergrenadier Division/DDR 11th Motorized Rifle Division

"Originally part of the East German Army, the unit was formed up on 12 July 1996 as 11th Motorized Rifle Division. It was supposed to replace the original 11th MRD which had been destroyed in fighting in Northern China"


Actually 2nd ed cut and pasted 1st ed. About 99.5% of the unit info in 2nd is exactly the same.
2nd added only a little new information and that was almost invariably in the form of new units rather than changes to previous listings.

Well, 2nd ed added info on Warsaw Pact allies otherwise true it was cut and paste with some modifications for the divergent history, probably more like 90% but anyways doesn't really matter. I have both. I bet you do too.

[Olefin]

Some information on Chinese units

A B category unit versus an A category unit would have the same unit size but very different in terms of training. Both are regular soldiers but in the case of the A units they would get the best equipment and training while the B unit would get older equipment and would receive a lower level of training in tactics (such as anti-armor or ambushes and the like)

A B category infantry unit is a motorized unit versus an A category infantry unit which are mechanized infantry units - with the corresponding differences in how they would be used in combat.

In 2005 a B unit would be issued with the type 63 APC and the Type 59 MBT and the type 81 Rifle while an A unit would get the Type 86 APC and the Type 96/99 MBT and would use the Type 95 rifle

Also an A category unit would be trained on the tactical use of helicopters where a type B unit would not be

And then below that would be garrison units that would be purely trained in security tactics and very simple infantry tactics - i.e. more for internal security than battlefield use

[Olefin]

So adding it up total Soviet effort against China

11 Tank Divisions - 4 still there, 5 transferred, 2 destroyed - one out of five divisions committed destroyed

40 Motor Rifle Divisions - 9 still there, 15 transferred, 12 destroyed, 4 mutinied after duty there - one third of the divisions committed destroyed or mutinied

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997

[Legbreaker]

So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997
Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

[Olefin]

Absolutely. Even with the USSR and it's allies as powerful as they were in the game, there's no way they could maintain that level and number of multiple operations at once any longer. They NEEDED to close down at least one major front to give them a hope of surviving even as long as until winter.
Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation.
Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective.

I agree completely with you - look at their delivery systems that they had - basically bombers that had very little chance of penetrating Soviet air space and if they Soviets got off their shots first most likely no surviving long range missiles - a few Soviet cities in the Far East might have been within their capabilities but no way do they hit the vital areas around Moscow or Kiev or Leningrad or Baku

and the only other nuclear power in Asia is the US - which you correctly argue was only basically responding in kind - and when the Chinese got nuked hadnt been touched yet on US soil - so who is going to risk LA trying to avenge Peking?

[Legbreaker]

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.
So basically there's fault on both sides. The Soviets used them first sure, but that was effectively in self defence with almost all other options exhausted.
Nato retaliated, but widened the nuked zone.

My belief is the war went nuclear due to a failure of the various intelligence agencies, or those they reported to. Either the spooks didn't pick up the warning signs that the Soviets were being pushed to the brink, or those above chose not to accept those warning signs and made the decision to keep pushing forward with the misguided idea the war would stay conventional even in the face of Soviet defeat.

[Olefin]

well face it having the German Army, of all armies, cross the Soviet border wasnt the smoothest of moves - not exactly going to bring back fond memories for the Soviets

however it was the Soviets that made the stupidest move and nuked the US - once the TDM happened there wasnt going to be any end to the war - the US and Russians previously werent going for each other's governments - but going for a decapitation strike on the US govt and military command centers pretty much ended any chance that the war was ever going to go to a negotiated end - especially when you add up how many civilians died in the "surgical strikes" in Florida and California and Texas - they basically took out a big part of the Los Angeles Basin, Philadelphia and northern and central Florida - after that the gloves were off

the fact that the US was restrained and didnt just empty their silos after that is actually pretty amazing

[Olefin]

This whole thread has really made me look at the possibility of doing something with China - even if all it is would be a basic China Vehicle Guide with basic details on their Army - lots of it would have to be invented though - there is not that much out there to really go on

[Legbreaker]

The Soviets were initially very restrained and only used tactical nukes against military targets in the west. It was Nato who escalated to theater nuclear weapons in September against "an array of industrial targets and port cities in the western Soviet Union".
The Soviets did not escalate, but retaliated.
BOTH sides had ample opportunities to de-escalate, the first earlier in July when the conventional Nato advance could have been halted at the Russian border, BUT I fully understand no commander in their right mind would want to take the pressure off an opponent and give them time to regroup.
The Soviets didn't HAVE to strike against the US, but remember they'd already suffered numerous strikes to their own cities and civilians at that point. To not strike would be to show weakness, and also allow the US to retain full industrial and economic capacity against their own already decimated infrastructure.

Stepping back you can see the chain of events which kicked off in China leading to nuclear war. There were plenty of opportunities to defuse the situation, but plenty of reasons not to do so as well.

[Rainbow Six]

Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.
I’ve always felt that was a possible explanation why Hong Kong was only attacked lightly (per the UKSG). Prior to 31 July 1997 it was still British Sovereign territory.

By the time that ceased to apply China was probably in such a state that there was no need to nuke it further (that’s assuming that the handover to the PRC actually took place at all given that by the end of July it sounds as though the PRC had effectively ceased to exist).

[Legbreaker]

A very good point there too about the handover date.
My guess is most of the work was already done by the time China was nuked, so the handover probably still happened.
However, it still makes sense for the Soviets to hold off on nuking the city until after the handover date, and possibly even until the first strikes were made against the UK itself, just to be safe.
Certainly makes sense to nuke it at some point though, it is one of the largest trading centres in Asia with good port facilities and a very important airport too. Leaving it intact, no matter who's officially (or unofficially) in possession of it would be a very big mistake.

[rcaf_777]

Thinking about doing a Group of Chinese Army Officers in the State

[RN7]

The is a listing of Chinese ground forces in the early-to-mid 1990's including relevant PLA Air Force and Navy units.


Peoples Liberation Army

2,300,000 Troops (including 1,075,000 conscripts)
0,600,000 Reserves

Organisation
7 Military Regions (including 28 Military Districts, 3 Garrison Commands)
24 Integrated Group Armies
10 Tank Divisions
84 Infantry Divisions
4 Airborne Divisions: 4 (under Air Force control)
7 Artillery Divisions
4 Air Defence Artillery Divisions
14 Independent Tank Brigades
21 Independent Artillery Brigades
28 Independent Anti-Aircraft Brigades
50 Independent Engineer Regiments
6 Rapid Deployment Force Battalions
5 Group Helicopter Battalions

* Chinese reserves add another 54 infantry divisions.
* Note Integrated Group Armies are equivalent to Western Corps (43,500 troops). Organization varies but typically includes 4 division (1 tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery) and 1 airborne brigade.
* Note: PLA divisions were smaller than Western and Soviet divisions. A typical Chinese tank division had 9,200 troops and infantry divisions had 12,700 troops.


Deployment

1) North-East Shenyang Military Region (Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning military districts)
5 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 19 divisions (3 tank, 15 infantry, 1 artillery)
2) North-Beijing Military Region (Beijing and Tianjin Garrison Commands, Hebei, Nei, Monggol, Shanxi military districts)
6 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 27 divisions (2 tank, 20 infantry, 1 Airborne, 2 artillery, 2 air defence)
3) West-Lanzhou Military Region (Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang, South Xinjiang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 13 divisions (1 tank, 12 infantry)
4) South West-Chengdu Military Region (Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, Xizang military districts)
2 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 8 divisions (7 infantry, 1 artillery)
5) South-Guangzhou Military Region (Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hubei, Hunan military districts)
2 Ground Army, 8 divisions (6 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)
6) Centre-Jinan Military Region (Henan, Shandong military districts)
4 Ground Army, 19 divisions (2 tanks, 13 infantry, 3 airborne, 1 artillery)
7) East-Nanjing Military Region (Shanghai Garrison Command, Anhui, Fujian, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Zheijiang military districts)
3 Ground Army, 15 divisions (2 tanks, 11 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence)


The PLA was huge in numbers and fielded 8,000 MBT and 1,200 light tanks. The PLA had 6,000 Type-59 MBT, the rest were Type-69, Type-79 and a few Type-80 and Type-90. The PLA had for its size relatively few mechanised armoured vehicles and self propelled artillery compared to NATO and Warsaw Pact armies. The PLA did have 14,500 towed artillery guns, 3,800 rocket artillery and 15,000 AA guns. SAM's included HN-5/5A/C and some HQ-6, all basically copies of Soviet and Western SAM. Anti-tank missiles were also basically copies of Soviet and Western systems. The PLA had about 100 helicopters, all license built from France or purchased from the US.

The PLAAF (Chinese Air Force): The PLAAF controlled 4 airborne divisions that were assigned to the PLA. The PLAAF also operated 16 Air Defence Artillery Divisions and 28 independent regiments with 16,000 air defence guns and 100 SAM units with HQ-2/2B/2J and HQ-61 SAM.

The PLAN (Chinese Navy): The PLAN had a naval infantry force of 1 brigade of 6,000 troops facing Taiwan, and also some special forces. On full mobilization the naval infantry would include a total of 8 divisions of 52 regiments (10 tank, 24 infantry and 8 artillery). Additionally the PLA had 3 infantry divisions that had an amphibious role. The PLAN Coastal Regional Defence Force also had 27,000 troops organised into 35 artillery regiments who operated CSS-C-2 anti-ship missiles and 130mm, 100mm and 85mm guns.

Para-Military Forces: Chinese paramilitary forces stood at about 12,000,000 and included the Ministry of Public Security, the People Armed Police and the Militia.

The Ministry of Public Security is the principle police and security organisation of China. At this time the Ministry of Public Security was unarmed and stood at over 1 million personnel. The People Armed Police is armed and is responsible for internal security, law enforcement and maritime protection in China as well as providing support to the PLA in wartime. The People Armed Police stood at about 750,000 personnel at this time and controlled the Border Defence Corps, a Para-military force of 1,029 border, mountain and internal defence battalions.

The largest Para-military force in China is the Militia. There were two classes of Militia. The Basic or Armed Militia was comprised of groups of men and women aged 18-30 who had served or were expected to serve in the PLA, and who received thirty to forty days of military training per year. The basic militia included naval militia which operated armed fishing trawlers and coastal defence units, as well as specialized detachments such as air defence, artillery, communications, anti-chemical, reconnaissance and engineering units. They were grouped in the Armed Militia of up to 4.3 million organized into about 75 cadre divisions and 2,000 regiments. The Ordinary Militia included men aged 18-35 who met the criteria for military service. They received some basic military training but generally were unarmed. The ordinary militia had some air defence duties and included the urban militia and a strength of 6 million. In wartime the militia would supply reserves for mobilization, provide logistical support to the PLA, and conduct guerrilla operations behind enemy lines.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's

[RN7]

Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army

And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union

Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines

V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them

V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's


If we are playing V1 then my list above will be what the Soviets will be facing when they attack China in 1995.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that there are category A and category B divisions in that mix for V1- and also garrison divisions in that list

As stated before the big differences:

Category A - best equipment, best training - basically the mobile troops that were ready (at least in Chinese eyes) to take on the Soviets from the get go

Category B - second line equipment, standard training but not top of the line - i.e. more basic, not advanced tactics or familiarity with top of the line equipment - still regular troops but definitely not the cream of the crop

Garrison - static infantry divisions with artillery support (with some units being issued older tanks - and by older I mean very old)

example

1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

Originally the 62nd Infantry Division the the 62nd Army Division and then reorganized in 1985 and renamed the 1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region

1st Garrison Regiment (former 184th Infantry);
2nd Garrison Regiment (former 185th Infantry);
3rd Garrison Regiment (former 186th Infantry);
Artillery Regiment.

Artillery most likely would be Type 60 122mm towed gun and Type 59-I 130mm towed gun and even perhaps the Type 59 100mm artillery pieces as well

It was disbanded in 1992 and became the Independent Infantry Regiment of Ningxia Military District. However in the V1 timeline it probably would have stayed intact as a garrison division

This might have been one of the divisions the 78th Motorized Rifle Division faced in Sinkiang

[Legbreaker]

Don't believe everything you read about the Chinese army's numbers, training or effectiveness. My ex was one of those militia. Their training consisted of 2 weeks of marching around doing civil tasks such as gardening and rubbish clean up (but mostly the marching). It happened once only in the dozen years or so they were supposed to do it.
They did however do a little rifle training - one day only with air rifles.

[Olefin]

Oh the militia suck - I agree there - basically they are good bullet absorbers and not much more than that - but the Category A and B troops are trained infantry - but definitely not up to US military standards for sure

[kalos72]

What sort of size are we talking for these divisions? 3-6k?

[Olefin]

Kalos - are you asking the size of divisions pre-war or by 2000-2001 timing?

China currently has switched from divisions to brigades so their current force structure is different from the 80's and 80's

[kalos72]

Beginning really...I know the general thought is 2000/2001 they were hammered and a fraction of prewar strength.

[Olefin]

per various sources - pre-1987 - with transition occurring in their army from then on into the late 90's/early 2000's from divisions to brigades

Each field army division under the old system had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion as well as support units

The garrison units were smaller as they usually only included infantry and artillery and typically only had three regiments of infantry and one artillery regiment

If you look at how the combat capable divisions were organized during the V1 and V2 timelines they were organized as follows:

three regiments (of three battalions each plus support units) (either armor or infantry) and then a fourth regiment that was either armor (in an infantry division) or infantry (in an armor division), an artillery regiment, an anti-aircraft regiment (or battalion), and then signals, engineer, recon, chemical defense battalions or companies and combat service units

There were many differences between category A and category B units - and the relative lack of APC's at the time meant that outside of armored divisions many infantry were transported in trucks. Similarly there was a lack of SPG's so mobile artillery in many cases was rocket artillery and most divisions had towed guns.

Also category A units had the best equipment while category B made do with older tanks and APC's - or in many cases were truck borne only as to transport

The current army is somewhat different as they use the brigade concept - so if you are looking at Twilight 2013 you are looking at brigade formations

Example - typical current PLAGF artillery brigade has 4 artillery battalions each with 18 guns in 3 batteries and 1 self-propelled anti-tank gun battalion (18 vehicles)

Currently a PLAGF armored brigade after the 1990's reorganization has 4 tank battalions with 124 main battle tanks, each composed of three tank companies of 31 tanks (10 per company and one battalion commander tank), a single mechanized infantry battalion with 40 APC's, one artillery battalion with 18 SPG and one anti-aircraft battalion

The tank divisions that the Soviets would have faced in V1 and V2 would have had three full regiments of tanks, each with 3 battalions each - thus 93 tanks per regiment with a total of around 280 tanks per division plus a full infantry regiment with (in a category A unit) some 120 APC's of various types

[Olefin]

FYI there are at least two Chinese Armies we know that the US forces linked up with per canon

US Army Vehicle Guide

25th Light Infantry Division - 9/7/97 - linked up with elements of the 31st Army

2nd Infantry Division - 8/1/97 - met up with and relieved surrounded Chinese 2nd Para Division. Then mentions it briefly came under the command of the Chinese 28th Army till that army's HQ was nuked and the army disintregrated

28th Army - from our timeline - From 1971 to 1998, this army corps belonged to the Beijing Military Region and was based in Shanxi Province, initially in Houma and then in Datong. At the time of its dissolution in 1998, the 28th Army was composed of the 82nd, 83rd and 205th Infantry Divisions, the 7th Armored Division, an artillery brigade, an anti-aircraft brigade, an engineer regiment, a communication regiment and a reconnaissance battalion.

31st Army - now the 73rd Army in our timeline - It was based at Xiamen, Fujian and is composed of the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions, along with an armored brigade, an air defense brigade, a surface-to-air missile regiment, an artillery regiment, and an engineer regiment. It is considered a Category A unit, with priority status in terms of readiness, strength, and modern equipment

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division

[shrike6]

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division


That either gives you a free hand to replace it with one of the real PRC Airborne Divisions or claim that they activated more airborne divisions during the war.

[RN7]

the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division

Chinese airborne divisions were under PLA Air Force control. the Chinese 15th Airborne Corps was a 35,000 strong force of 3 airborne divisions (43rd, 44th, 45th). There were other airborne regiments or brigades that may have equalled a division in size but I cant get a unit number for it.

When the Soviets invaded China this would have been a strategic reserve to be used against Soviet forces. They would have been better quality troops than the average PLA division but they were lightly armed. At some point the PLA would have sent them against advancing Soviet forces, were they would likely have been chewed to pieces by better equipped Soviet forces in the meat grinder that was the Soviet-Chinese War. Maybe the PLA raised more airborne divisions to replace them as I doubt any of them would have survived at division strength after a year or more of fighting.

[Olefin]

I would also suggest that the 2nd Parachute Division is not a true Para division but instead a division that could be air transported into combat by helicopter or short field/rough landing capable transports that could be composed of excess Air Force personnel from the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force – in other words a unit that was similar to the ones that Goering created after 1941 during WWII

And I agree that there is a very good chance that their original Para force was used to try to stop the Soviets and had their heads handed to them – possibly with a few survivors being used to form the new “Para” divisions

[Olefin]

Here is an idea for how such a sourcebook could be done - this would be the entry for the 205th Infantry Division which was part of the 28th Army as an example

205th Infantry Division – Northern Motorized Infantry Division, Catalog A

The 205th took heavy casualties during the initial fighting in 1995, helping to stop the Soviet drive on Beijing. It took part in the 1995 counteroffensive and was then pulled off the line to absorb infantry and tank replacements. In early spring 1997 it rejoined the 28th Army and took part in the last Chinese counteroffensive, overrunning and almost destroying the Soviet 153rd Motorized Rifle Division in the process. The division was destroyed by four tactical nukes on August 18, 1997 leaving less than 300 survivors to be captured by the Soviets.

[RN7]

Here is an idea for how such a sourcebook could be done - this would be the entry for the 205th Infantry Division which was part of the 28th Army as an example

205th Infantry Division – Northern Motorized Infantry Division, Catalog A

The 205th took heavy casualties during the initial fighting in 1995, helping to stop the Soviet drive on Beijing. It took part in the 1995 counteroffensive and was then pulled off the line to absorb infantry and tank replacements. In early spring 1997 it rejoined the 28th Army and took part in the last Chinese counteroffensive, overrunning and almost destroying the Soviet 153rd Motorized Rifle Division in the process. The division was destroyed by four tactical nukes on August 18, 1997 leaving less than 300 survivors to be captured by the Soviets.


Do you want to do a list like that of all the PLA divisions Olefin?

[Olefin]

Do you want to do a list like that of all the PLA divisions Olefin?

I have been thinking of doing it and see what I can come up with - not sure if there is real interest in such a sourcebook though - if I did it would be something like you see in the original US and Soviet vehicle guides using what canon sources I can find to come up with the best guess I can on what the fates were of the various Chinese forces

The 28th and 31st Armies we at least have canon references to so thats a place to start

In many ways it would be a historical document (i.e. the Chinese Army really took it on the chin and a lot of the entries are going to read "destroyed", " overrun", "nuked" etc.. (you get the hint) but could also show the best guess at what is left and who they may be answering to (i.e. the warlords mentioned in the canon)

[Legbreaker]

I think China's basically too screwed up to bother with. Their military forces have been utterly devastated, and the northern part of the country at least glows quite brightly at night and has a rather glassy look to it.

[Olefin]

I think China's basically too screwed up to bother with. Their military forces have been utterly devastated, and the northern part of the country at least glows quite brightly at night and has a rather glassy look to it.

I could see a possible list of what happened and then some expanded info on areas that most likely would be of interest to for campaigns - which I would think would be area mentioned in Raellus's Korean Sourcebook and the area surrounding Hong Kong for the UK players who want to do a campaign there

[Rainbow Six]

I wrote this years ago. The order of battle would need some changes to be canon compliant.

[Olefin]

I wrote this years ago. The order of battle would need some changes to be canon compliant.

Would definitely love to have that as part of any sourcebook

In fact one big source of info on what happened to the Chinese Army during and after the nuclear strikes as well as the status of whatever units remain would have been from the 6th as it fought its way back to Hong Kong and its activities after it got back

Based on it being part of the 31st Army for a short while it could have survivors from any of the units that were in that division - i.e. the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions or the support units that were part of it - as part of the troops that are still with them back in Hong Kong

[Legbreaker]

A source book would probably need to focus on the southern part of the country plus a bit of SE Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, etc but excluding the island nations such as the Philippines and Indonesia) to fill the pages with just a cursory coverage of the north.
Much of what's already in Bangkok, Merc and the Gazetteer would be applicable with a few minor tweaks here and there perhaps (Bangkok's vague enough that it can be used in either timeline without any trouble).
Northern China is just one big Devastated region with scattered random encounters and the odd Cantonment. Civilians have probably all cleared out of died long ago, and the soldiers that are left would probably be suffering quite badly from radiation, starvation and disease. The Pact units are likely looking to move back north out of the devastated zone, or east into Korea if they're still paying some sort of lip service to higher command.
Chinese units have likely become little different to marauders preying on each other and the handful of civilians too stubborn or unable to leave. Give it another couple of years and the whole region will likely be deserted for the most part with only rare settlements spread far apart to be found.

[Olefin]

I dont see Northern China as quite the wasteland you say it is Leg - mainly because the Russians still have troops there. If it was really the blasted radioactive ruin you depict then why do they have multiple divisions stationed in Manchuria still? You dont waste good troops guarding radioactive ruins

[Legbreaker]

Perhaps my description was a bit excessive, but seriously, can anyone really imagine there's much going on there of interest?
It was nuked heavier than anywhere else on the planet. Even Silesia, which suffered 97% population reduction didn't get hit anywhere nearly as hard as Northern China. Account for the hostile environment (even IRL it's not all that pleasant with 40 deg C (104F) summers and -30 deg C (-22F) winters), plus years of warfare, topped off with widespread nukes and there'd be lucky to be 1% of the population left - including the Pact forces bumping up the numbers.

[Olefin]

FYI if there was one area that got hit big time and I bet its the reason the Soviets were unable to finish the job in Korea is the area north of the Yalu River - if you read the canon the Soviets used a bunch of tactical nukes in that area to not only take out the 28th Chinese Army but also to majorly damage several US divisions - and have a feeling the US hit that area pretty hard as well as payback after they pulled back

must make getting any kind of supplies to North Korea and the troops that are there no fun at all if you basically have to traverse a wasteland to get them there

[unkated]

I agree completely with you - look at their delivery systems that they had - basically bombers that had very little chance of penetrating Soviet air space and if they Soviets got off their shots first most likely no surviving long range missiles - a few Soviet cities in the Far East might have been within their capabilities but no way do they hit the vital areas around Moscow or Kiev or Leningrad or Baku


Have to disagree with you.

The Chinese have the DF-4 and DF-5 ICBM.


DF-4 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-4) (from China) can reach to US bases in the Pacific and Alaska, and across all of Europe to the Rhine. It is either launched from a cave or garage, or a silo. There are not many of these.

DF-5 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-5) (from China) can reach anything except for South America. The DF-5 is usually deployed in pairs, in underground tunnels, and are rolled out and fueled before launch. For each missile, there are about a dozen fake tunnel entries (lest someone try to target them before use.

China also would have had a few Long March 2A or 2C orbital launch vehicles to allow them to drop something anywhere. On the other hand, the facilities capable of launching the Long March are few - and well known.


However, the Chinese have few ICBMs missiles compared to the US or Soviets - a couple dozen DF-5s and fewer DF-4s. Unlike the US & USSR (who stock enough to destroy the other side even if hit first, as well as nukes for tactical (as opposed to strategic) uses, Chinese nukes are meant as a regional deterrent against against other nations with no or few nukes.

Now, having said that, this is not a nuclear force whose use would bring the USSR to its knees. If all survived to strike, the Chinese nuclear force is a fraction of the NATO/USSR exchange - and I doubt all of the Chinese units would have survived long enough to strike back - and some number were used operationally against Russian units in the field.

And that's before we discuss a "robust ABM defense"...

Uncle Ted

[Olefin]

One thing to keep in mind with the canon is that it was written in the mid-1980's and many of the Chinese missiles they were familiar with were deployed in small numbers - or they may have only known about the liquid fuel ones - and they have a crucial vulnerability

i.e. the DF-4 only had four missiles operational in 1984 - but they can definitely bust a city if they get off the ground - 3,300 kt explosive yield - but they have to be fueled prior to launch

the DF-5 of which they had around 15-20 took as long as two hours to fuel which had to be done in the open - giving the Soviets a pretty good chance to nail them on the pad - that is for the ones in the tunnels

the ones in the silos can be maintained at ready to fire - but they had a very limited number in silos

the DF-3 has a range of 3,300 km - not enough to reach Moscow but they could really screw up cities closer - there were 50 of them in 1993 but they also had to be fueled prior to firing - so they could be caught on the ground

the DF-11 is solid fuel and is the one that could be launched under attack with no prep time - but it has much shorter range - only around 300 km - but there are a lot of them - the question is would China have used them conventionally first and how many were left to put nukes on

you also have the DF-21A which went into service in 1996 which the canon authors would have had no information at all - its road mobile and has good range and a 300kt warhead - but who knows how many were ever made before the Soviets hammered China

as for bombers the canon writers would only have known about the 120 H-6 bombers they had that were a variant of the Tu-16

the Xian JH-7 Flying Leopard that has a range and payload exceeding that of the F-111 wasnt deployed until 1992 - those planes had a real chance of making it to target versus the H-6 bombers

So the real question is given the existence of ABM's in the timeline how many would have gotten off the ground (you figure the Soviets would go all out to get as many as possible) and how many would have been shot down?

[Olefin]

Also China would have had no operational satellites for early warning - the only way they would have known about launches was from the US - and there isnt enough time to launch the liquid fuel rockets under attack - so that leaves you basically the solid fuel ones and maybe they get lucky and actually have a couple of liquid fuel rockets actually survive to get off the pads or silos

as for their Air Force - after two years of war with the Soviets it may be more a question of what was left of their nuclear capable aircraft when the time came - and you can see the Soviets going all out to knock as many out prior to the start of nuking China - and as opposed to the strikes against the US they didnt kid around with China - it was basically a full all out strike not just a couple here and there and slowing building up

[Olefin]

Example of a place I sure wouldnt have wanted to be in 1997 in the timeline

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Second-Artillery-Corps.html

The 54th Base consists of six missile units in eastern China. These units are as follows:
801st Brigade, DF-5A, Lushi
804th Brigade, DF-5A, Luoning/Luoyang
813th Brigade, DF-31, Nanyang
U/I Brigade, DF-4, Sundian
U/I Brigade, DF-31, Xixia
U/I Brigade, U/I missile, Sanmenxia

Now the DF-31 wouldnt have been there but the rest would have - so you can pretty much count on those areas getting very heavily hit by the Soviets - those are the rockets that have the best chance of devastating the Soviet heartland

[Legbreaker]

Yes, I just can't see the Chinese nukes being a credible threat to the Soviets given the history of the war to date and clear advantage the Soviets had with satellite surveillance.
You can bet any silos would have been identified early and targeted with the first wave. Satellites and other resources would certainly be focused on the mobile launchers with strikes occurring the moment they were exposed.
Strategically, Chinese nukes are only likely to be of much use in a first strike, surprise situation. In T2K they had no chance to get more than a handful off the ground, and as written in the timeline, the Soviet ABM system was very effective against them.

[RN7]

In the mid-1990's the Chinese nuclear arsenal was very weak compared with the US and USSR in both real life and T2K timelines, and was in fact less capable than British and French nuclear forces. Even today it is still weak.

At this time China had two ICBM: DF-4 and DF-5.

DF-4 ICBM (Range: 5,500-7,000 km with 1x 3.3 Mt warhead)
DF-5 ICBM (Range: 12,000-15,000 km with 1x 4.5 Mt warhead)

The DF-4 was barely even an ICBM and could scarcely reach Moscow from the Chinese east coast. The DF-5 was a minimal Chinese strategic nuclear deterrent against both the US and USSR. Numbers for both missiles varies (from a dozen up to 40) but I doubt China had more than 25 of both missiles in total at this time.

China's force of IRBM's was more formidable, they had at least 50 DF-3 and maybe a dozen DF-21

DF-3 IRBM (Range: 3,100 km with 1x 3,3 Mt)
DF-21A IRBM (Range: 2,150 km with 1x 300 kt)

Depending on where they were launched both missiles could hit anywhere in the Soviet Far East, and also most of Siberia and Soviet Central Asia. China also had over 100 tactical ranged DF-15 SRBM with a range of 600 km that were nuclear capable.

The Chinese Navy had only one operations SSBN at this time, the single Xia Class with 12 J-1 SLBM with a range in the IRBM class. It was old and noisy and probably sunk early in the war. China's nuclear bomber force consisted of about 120 Xian-H-6, a Chinese built version of the Tupolev Tu-16. China's stock of air dropped nuclear bombs was about 20. The Xian H-6 would have been shot to pieces by the Soviet air defenses.

[Olefin]

In the mid-1990's the Chinese nuclear arsenal was very weak compared with the US and USSR in both real life and T2K timelines, and was in fact less capable than British and French nuclear forces. Even today it is still weak.

At this time China had two ICBM: DF-4 and DF-5.

DF-4 ICBM (Range: 5,500-7,000 km with 1x 3.3 Mt warhead)
DF-5 ICBM (Range: 12,000-15,000 km with 1x 4.5 Mt warhead)

The DF-4 was barely even an ICBM and could scarcely reach Moscow from the Chinese east coast. The DF-5 was a minimal Chinese strategic nuclear deterrent against both the US and USSR. Numbers for both missiles varies (from a dozen up to 40) but I doubt China had more than 25 of both missiles in total at this time.

China's force of IRBM's was more formidable, they had at least 50 DF-3 and maybe a dozen DF-21

DF-3 IRBM (Range: 3,100 km with 1x 3,3 Mt)
DF-21A IRBM (Range: 2,150 km with 1x 300 kt)

Depending on where they were launched both missiles could hit anywhere in the Soviet Far East, and also most of Siberia and Soviet Central Asia. China also had over 100 tactical ranged DF-15 SRBM with a range of 600 km that were nuclear capable.

The Chinese Navy had only one operations SSBN at this time, the single Xia Class with 12 J-1 SLBM with a range in the IRBM class. It was old and noisy and probably sunk early in the war. China's nuclear bomber force consisted of about 120 Xian-H-6, a Chinese built version of the Tupolev Tu-16. China's stock of air dropped nuclear bombs was about 20. The Xian H-6 would have been shot to pieces by the Soviet air defenses.

Completely agree on the weakness of the Chinese nuclear force - have a feeling the Soviets didnt stop them all - thats impossible - but compared to the hellstorm that hit the Chinese the damage they took was minor - maybe at most 2-5 nukes that actually got thru and definitely not any of the city busters

[Legbreaker]

Completely agree on the weakness of the Chinese nuclear force - have a feeling the Soviets didnt stop them all - thats impossible - but compared to the hellstorm that hit the Chinese the damage they took was minor - maybe at most 2-5 nukes that actually got thru and definitely not any of the city busters

Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit. Strike aircraft deliver warheads on the northern Chinese population and industrial centres still in Chinese hands. The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared. Ballistic missile attacks on Soviet population centres are frustrated by an active and efficient ABM system, and the Soviet Air Defence Command massacres the handful of Chinese bombers that attempted low-level penetration raids. Within a week, the Chinese riposte is spent, but Soviet attacks continue. The Chinese communication and transportation system, already stretched to the breaking point, disintegrates.The roads are choked with refugees fleeing from the remaining cities, all of them potential targets. China begins the rapid slide into anarchy and civil disorder.

While the books certainly don't rule out a Chinese success here or there, the text definitely downplays the handful that did get through. Besides a few units hit by tactical warheads, the nukes were pretty much one way.
I'd be surprised if the Chinese attacks lasted the week mentioned above, and didn't die out after the first 24 hours or so. Ok, there may have been one or two after that, but those missiles are likely to have been delayed more due to technical reasons than a desire to wait for the right moment. Those last few were almost certainly sent off out of pure desperation and/or refusal by generals and politicians to accept they weren't just beaten, but obliterated.

[Olefin]

I would say that the successful attacks were on the Soviet troops - i.e.

"The Chinese response is immediate, but Soviet forward troop units are dispersed and well prepared."

Meaning the bombs got to target and caused damage - but we arent talking concentrated forces that got hit - dispersed and well prepared - meaning ok maybe a couple of nukes hit a Soviet division but instead of taking it out as intended its more like maybe one or two battalions took it on the chin but the rest were ok - and they had electronics shut down to avoid EMP damage and men dug in deep so basically unless you were at ground zero you made it

whereas the Chinese units were hit either in road formation or in combat formation on the move - i.e. not dug in, electronics on and able to be fried by EMP, etc.. "Chinese mechanized columns are vaporized, caught in the open on the roads in imagined pursuit."

about the only Soviet unit that really got hit was the 148th Motorized Rifle Division - nuked and thought to be destroyed by the Soviets in the fall of 1997 but may be survivors - i.e. either they didnt get the word in time or something happened that instead of pulled way back, dispersed and dug in they were fighting for their lives against the Chinese and the Soviet nukes took them out too - or their communications failed and it was a case of friendly fire - i.e. they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got nuked instead of the Chinese unit the strike craft was supposed to hit

[Legbreaker]

I think that's a pretty good assessment overall. China as a whole got decimated while the Pact forces and homelands received a comparative rap on the knuckles.

[shrike6]

A source book would probably need to focus on the southern part of the country plus a bit of SE Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, etc but excluding the island nations such as the Philippines and Indonesia) to fill the pages with just a cursory coverage of the north.

Didnt one of the books say that Vietnamese got involved in opening a southern front against the Chinese? Im not at home to look it up.

[Legbreaker]

Didnt one of the books say that Vietnamese got involved in opening a southern front against the Chinese? Im not at home to look it up.

Yes, it's mentioned in the Merc Gazetteer that "In 1999, the forces of General Ch'en Mien-wu, warlord of Yunnan, invaded Vietnam, advancing down the Gam River valley with the intention of acquiring the city of Hanoi and the port of Haipong (Yunnan being landlocked and in need of access to the sea for economic reasons)."
Vietnam and Yunnan are far enough away from the fighting against the Pact that this is still possible in T2K, but with the lack of international, even regional trade occurring in T2K, and the obliteration of the bulk of Chinese forces (besides some lesser quality garrison type units) I think it's doubtful.
Advance the timeline at least five years though when the region has made some headway towards recovery and I think it becomes an interesting possibility.

[Olefin]

Actually if any of the Chinese forces would be intact it might be the ones along the Vietnamese border - they are ones that the Soviets would be highly unlikely to attack with nukes - mainly because they would be no threat to them - thus a warlord trying to attack Vietnam (as Leg said maybe in 2002-2003) that is the commander of those forces could be very plausible

[.45cultist]

I always laughed at "Peoples Liberation Army Navy". Just the name, not the organization itself.

[shrike6]

Actually if any of the Chinese forces would be intact it might be the ones along the Vietnamese border - they are ones that the Soviets would be highly unlikely to attack with nukes - mainly because they would be no threat to them - thus a warlord trying to attack Vietnam (as Leg said maybe in 2002-2003) that is the commander of those forces could be very plausible
I dont know that I buy the Vietnamese front being quiet. I mean the Cam Rahn Bay Naval Bay could be a major thorn in the side of the Chinese war effort. With the potental to devastate oil from the Middle East or at least making it take longer to arrive in Chinese ports. Now I am not saying the Chinese would go nuclear on it but I cant believe they didnt try to imtimidate the Vietnamese by some kind of border action or try to strike the base in some way.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2013.04.04/mapcrudebig.png

[Legbreaker]

Who's to say Vietnam was actively hostile to China?
I doubt they'd be anything approaching allies, but with the west obviously supporting China with weapons, ammo, etc they're not about to pick a fight are they?

[shrike6]

Who's to say Vietnam was actively hostile to China?
I doubt they'd be anything approaching allies, but with the west obviously supporting China with weapons, ammo, etc they're not about to pick a fight are they?

Whose to say they weren't? The Vietnamese have defeated the West before. The Soviets are close Allies and have a military base there. China has been an enemy in the past during the modern era. Going back as far as the Vietnamese kicking the Khmer Rouge out of Cambodia and including various territorial disputes along their border and including the Spratley and Paracel Islands. Its hard for me to believe that they are not going to take advantage of China being distracted by the USSR in some way.

Let alone that China gets it oil from two places at this time USSR and via the Strait of Malacca. For the Soviets to not try to take advantage of that situation and at least try to disrupt the flow is short sighted at the least especially given the piracy that happens in the area on a normal basis. How long it would stay disrupted is another question but it seems like a big strategic oversight to me.

[RN7]

The status of Vietnam depends on if your playing V.1 or V.2.

In V.1 Vietnam was allied to the Soviet Union and at war with China.

From Soviet Vehicle Guide.

1st Indochinese Front
128th Air Assault Brigade
28th Soviet Army
50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division
101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division
104th Motorised Rifle Division

The 128th Air Assault Brigade (Hanoi, Vietnam): A pre-war a Category I units attached to the Central Asian MD, the 128th was sent to Vietnam as part of a force to protect the naval facilities in 1997. The 128th has seen little action, suffering mainly from a lack of fuel and desertion.

50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division (Haiphong, Vietnam). A Category III MR Divisions from the Byelorussian MD activated in late 1995. Sent to Vietnam in mid-1996 to protect naval assets at Haiphong, and has been engaged against the Chinese and other armed bands since.

101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division (Hanoi, Vietnam). A Category I MR Divisions from the Byelorussian MD. Sent to Vietnam at the start of the war with China in order to help the Vietnamese Army protect its northern borders. This units fought a series of sharp engagements with the Chinese before the fall of China.

104th Motorised Rifle Division (Vietnam): A mobilisation only division raised in the Kiev MD in late 1996. It was sent to Vietnam as a reinforcement as the units there became involved with fighting with the Chinese.


In V.2 Vietnam was not allied with the Soviet Union.

There is no mention of Soviet forces in Vietnam in V.2 Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook. The 1st Indochinese Front has become the 1st Japanese Front. The 128th Air Assault Brigade, 50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division, 101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division and 104th Motorised Rifle Division are now stationed in the Kurile Islands and Sakhalin Island.

Also from V.2 American Combat Vehicle Handbook. The US 2nd Infantry Division was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay, Republic of Vietnam from 1991 until 1996, when it was then transferred to Korea under command of the reconstituted 8th U.S. Army. So in V.2 communist Vietnam is now switched back to the South Vietnamese Republic of Vietnam and US forces are based in Vietnam up to at least the start of the Sino-Soviet War !!!!?

[Legbreaker]

Well there you go then. Some pretty conclusive information there.

[Olefin]

The sourcebook I would be looking at would be more tuned to the V1 timeline versus the V2 - and the US being in Vietnam and the reunification of Korea in the V2 timeline really wasnt handled that well in V2 - it was like the whole China Russia war and the Korean front was treated more as just padding for the real action in Europe and North America and the Middle East

[shrike6]

The sourcebook I would be looking at would be more tuned to the V1 timeline versus the V2 - and the US being in Vietnam and the reunification of Korea in the V2 timeline really wasnt handled that well in V2 - it was like the whole China Russia war and the Korean front was treated more as just padding for the real action in Europe and North America and the Middle East

Can't argue with any of that, alot of east Asia seemed to be an afterthought with version 2.

[ChalkLine]

A few historical notes on the PLA;

1 - The PLA were poised to assault Taiwan in 1950. With the US-led UN intervention in Korea and the massing of troops on the China-Korea border those troops were converted from invasion formations to coastal defence formations.

2 - The troops used in Korea were in a large part former Nationalist troops 'cleansing their honour' (ie: dying to avoid reprisals to their families and home regions). This is important because the methods used by the PLA in Korea were an aberration; they actively wanted a high death rate in their own troops. Many troops used in the Chosin action were not issued shoes.
Attempting to use these 'human wave' attacks as a standard Chinese tactic is wrong and I kinda wish people would stop it when I see it in faction :)

[Olefin]

actually using a human wave attack as a distraction in desperation could possibly still be a tactic of theirs - but only if it was to have the Soviets concentrate everything they had on the wave and not realize they were about to get taken in the flank by tanks

[shrike6]

I suppose another way to supply Tanks to China would be to buy the various T-54/55s the Israelis have and ship them to China as well

[Legbreaker]

Something people seem to be missing is China is NOT an English speaking country, let alone reading.
Every last label on every piece of equipment would have to be changed before the Chinese could put it to use. (Some items such as small arms ammo shouldn't pose a problem though - bit hard to get confused with that...)
This small but vital detail may well prevent some items from being sent, and will certainly delay others. Add in training time and costs, as well as the manpower required just for qualified instructors who can speak the language, and it's an almost certainty the more technical items would be only in limited supply and use.
Yes, a LOT of material was sent to the USSR in WWII, but you really can't compare a Sherman or Matilda with even an M60A4 or Chieftain - the newer stuff (even though not latest generation) is a whole magnitude of complexity greater.

[Olefin]

sending Soviet stuff that is in other countries is actually a pretty good idea - i.e. a T-54/55 is basically the same tank as the Chinese have - pretty easy to print up and stick labels over the Russian characters - same with the T-62 which they captured several examples of back during the late 60's

Also China has a lot of people who speak English as well as Chinese and can read and speak both languages - they happen to live in Hong Kong - so that is a great source for the Chinese to get people to both translate manuals and for providing translation for training

[Legbreaker]

I've been trying to think of reasons why Israel would not sell T-55s, etc to China and honestly I can't really think of too many besides them perhaps wanting to keep them for their own forces. That said, I understand they've got quite a few anyway and have been gradually replacing them with better machines, refurbishing and flogging the old stuff off to Africa or whoever stumps up the cash.
Pretty sure there's no mention anywhere in the books of them supplying anyone throughout the war(s), but also hasn't been ruled out.

[RN7]

I've been trying to think of reasons why Israel would not sell T-55s, etc to China and honestly I can't really think of too many besides them perhaps wanting to keep them for their own forces. That said, I understand they've got quite a few anyway and have been gradually replacing them with better machines, refurbishing and flogging the old stuff off to Africa or whoever stumps up the cash.
Pretty sure there's no mention anywhere in the books of them supplying anyone throughout the war(s), but also hasn't been ruled out.

Israel had links with China at this time despite the Arab and Soviet Bloc boycott of Israel. Israel sold technology to upgrade Chinese tanks and planes in the 1980s, and after Tiananmen Square led to Western military sanctions against China the Israelis became China’s back door to western technology. Israel was ready to sell the Phalcon AWAC to China before the US forced Israel to cancel the deal. Israel also sold UAV technology to the Chinese and the Chengdu J-10 is also believed to have used technical information from the Israeli Lavi fighter project.

[Rainbow Six]

I visited the PRC a couple of times from Hong Kong about fifteen years ago. On each occasion our hosts were keen to give us a bit of a tour. One thing that always featured was a trip to a local school where we shown young kids (six, seven, eight years old) being taught English (this was in and around Guangzhou). They used to ask us questions to show off / practice their English – what’s your favourite football team / player was a common one. There were a helluva lot of Manchester United fans – little beggars. I spent a while talking to one of their teachers – he was a Canadian guy, probably in his early twenties, went round all of the local schools on a pushbike. I remember he said to me that he had just decided to “drop off the grid” so came to China and got a job TEFL.

Granted that was in the early 2000’s but it wouldn’t surprise me if there were enough English speakers to handle any translation needs that were required when it came to manuals.

Also China has a lot of people who speak English as well as Chinese and can read and speak both languages - they happen to live in Hong Kong - so that is a great source for the Chinese to get people to both translate manuals and for providing translation for training

Possibly, but until the handover the majority of them would be either BNO's (British Nationals Overseas) or BDTC's (British Dependent Territories Citizens) so any work they wished to carry out for the PRC would be entirely voluntary. As noted above though, I don't think getting translators would be a problem.

[Legbreaker]

My ex is from Shenyang up in the north east not too far from the NK border. She was one of the few who could speak English mainly due to her father who before retiring had been a local government official responsible for most communications with English speakers.
My understanding from her is the further you get from Hong Kong, the fewer English speakers, and those that can have reduced fluency.

[.45cultist]

I've been trying to think of reasons why Israel would not sell T-55s, etc to China and honestly I can't really think of too many besides them perhaps wanting to keep them for their own forces. That said, I understand they've got quite a few anyway and have been gradually replacing them with better machines, refurbishing and flogging the old stuff off to Africa or whoever stumps up the cash.
Pretty sure there's no mention anywhere in the books of them supplying anyone throughout the war(s), but also hasn't been ruled out.

Isreal sells our restricted stuff to China, why not the T55's?

[ChalkLine]

It would probably cost more to ship a T-55 from Israel than it would to make one

[Legbreaker]

It would probably cost more to ship a T-55 from Israel than it would to make one

Yeah, I was thinking shipping costs might be an issue along with transport availability, but this is all happening before the action in Europe kicks off, so that shouldn't really be a problem, especially since there's obviously the capability to send heavy equipment by sea to places like Africa (can't imagine Israel's neighbours would be very happy about allowing land transport).
The big sticking point I think is probably just how many tanks the Israeli's have in the parking lot in 1995 and whether or not they're thinking they might need them themselves. Other than that, not really seeing any significant reasons not to sell to China (they're certainly not giving them away!).