Cold War wargame- OOB question?

[Adm.Lee]

I seem to recall that by the mid-80s, French divisions were much smaller than their NATO counterparts. They might have 3 regiments, but those "regiments" were battalion-sized by anyone else's standards.

A. Am I correct in remembering this?
B. When did they downsize their divisions & regiments?

I ask because I've picked up Compass Games' "Brezhnev's War", and in there, the French divisions rate equally to the West Germans. The game is a little unusual, since it's intended to cover the 1975-1980 time period, rather than the 1983-88 that my other favorite WW3 games cover.

IMO, it plays fast & loose with some details, so it's a simplified game from what I'm used to. The rules have some interesting mechanisms inside.

I figured if anyone could give me a quick answer on French OBs in the 70s, it would be on this board.

[dragoon500ly]

At most, the French divisions of that period were brigade-sized, averaging from 2-4 line battalions and a support group. The larger units were the active duty ones, the smaller were their equivalent of the National Guard.

[alexei]

Most of what I have is circa 1989. I will post a NATO OB Word document that someone on the Net created a while back.

The 1989 Osprey book Tank War Central Front NATO vs. Warsaw Pact has the following entry for France:

The French Army is potentially one of the larger contributors to NATO defence of the Central Front, but its semi-independent posture has meant that its forces are not as well integrated into NATO as other armies. The French Army currently fields 16 medium tank regiments, equipped with various models of the AMX-30 tank; these regiments are about the same size as an American tank battalion. Tanks are also integrated into mechanized infantry and cavalry units.

A total of 1,184 AMX-30B tanks were delivered to the French Army by the early 1980s, followed by 271 AMX-30B2s. In the mid-1980s the French Army funded the conversion of AMX-30Bs to the improved AMX-30B2 standard, with about 500 tanks converted by 1988; a total of 693 are planned for conversion by the time the program is completed in the late 1980s.

Three of France’s eight armoured divisions are forward-deployed in Germany with the I and II French Corps. French units remain under national command authorities, not supreme NATO command. But in time of war, some degree of NATO operational control over French forces would be likely.

Since the mid-1980s, France has been paying greater attention to its role in a conventional defence of Europe, and expanding its joint exercises with the Bundeswehr. The French Army currently contemplates acquiring the new LeClerc main battle tank in the early 1990s.

[rcaf_777]

How do the Franco-German Brigade and The European Corps (Eurocorps) factor in? Especially since France does not go to war?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

[shrike6]

How do the Franco-German Brigade and The European Corps (Eurocorps) factor in? Especially since France does not go to war?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

The Franco German Brigade would dissolve and the Franco German Brigade units would revert to their respective divisions. German units to the 10th Panzer and French units to the French 1st Division.

[Adm.Lee]

But nothing on the late '70s, as yet?

[RN7]

I seem to recall that by the mid-80s, French divisions were much smaller than their NATO counterparts. They might have 3 regiments, but those "regiments" were battalion-sized by anyone else's standards.

A. Am I correct in remembering this?
B. When did they downsize their divisions & regiments?

I ask because I've picked up Compass Games' "Brezhnev's War", and in there, the French divisions rate equally to the West Germans. The game is a little unusual, since it's intended to cover the 1975-1980 time period, rather than the 1983-88 that my other favorite WW3 games cover.

IMO, it plays fast & loose with some details, so it's a simplified game from what I'm used to. The rules have some interesting mechanisms inside.

I figured if anyone could give me a quick answer on French OBs in the 70s, it would be on this board.


See this thread...

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=5269&highlight=division+size

[unkated]

How do the Franco-German Brigade and The European Corps (Eurocorps) factor in? Especially since France does not go to war?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

(IMHO, of course)

In the V1 timeline, one can make a case that since the iron curtain is a strong divider and that NATO's national armies are still massive, active, and integrated, there is no perceived political need for for these units. Active involvement (troop deployment) in the Balkans for say a Yugoslav breakup, would be perceived as a threat by the Soviet Union; such a deployment decision would not be undertaken by a (non-NATO) body of Western European nations without a consulting NATO. Remember that at this time (ca. 1990) there are no non-western EU members except Ireland and Greece - who is part of NATO (Austria and Sweden join Jan 1995).

V2 and V2.2 timelines are a different story, depending on how far you follow actual history before splitting them off into gameland. But certainly, these Euro units would break up within days if not hours of France pulling out of NATO, demanding that the German units saddle up and march across the bridge in Strassbourg onto German soil, and withdrawing their units out of Germany. One can almost hear the sniff at the end of the official stiffly-worded request.

You can probably play with various headscratching about what happens to the EU, its agencies, trade agreeements, and border arrangements as western Europe fragments. But that is another story...

Uncle Ted

[shrike6]

(IMHO, of course)

In the V1 timeline, one can make a case that since the iron curtain is a strong divider and that NATO's national armies are still massive, active, and integrated, there is no perceived political need for for these units. Active involvement (troop deployment) in the Balkans for say a Yugoslav breakup, would be perceived as a threat by the Soviet Union; such a deployment decision would not be undertaken by a (non-NATO) body of Western European nations without a consulting NATO. Remember that at this time (ca. 1990) there are no non-western EU members except Ireland and Greece - who is part of NATO (Austria and Sweden join Jan 1995).



I agree with you as far as Eurocorps is concerned but the Franco-German Brigade was formed in 1987 before the Maastricht treaty and the EU. so there was a perceived need for it by Mitterand and Kohl for it. As I said earlier the brigade would dissolve as France removes itself from NATO and the West Germans would need the 10th Panzer at full strength for the reunification fight.

[unkated]

But nothing on the late '70s, as yet?

I did find a description of the 1st French Armored Division (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Armored_Division_(France)#1948_to_1999) circa 1985:

The 1st Armoured Division was recreated in 1948.

In 1951, the general headquarter staff garrisoned at Trèves in Germany. The division was part of the French Forces in Germany (French: Forces françaises en Allemagne, FFA).

Composition in 1985:

1er Régiment de cuirassiers de St Wendel
6e Régiment de dragons de Saarburg
8e Groupe de chasseurs de Wittlich
16e Groupe de chasseurs de Saarburg
153e Régiment d'infanterie de Mutzig
9e Régiment d'artillerie de marine de Trèves
61e Régiment d'artillerie de Morhange
13e Régiment de génie de Trèves
1er Escadron d'éclairage divisionnaire de St Wendel
1er Régiment de commandement et de soutien de Trèves

I doubt that its structure much, though the units may have. I also do not believe that the size of a Regiment changed much in that time. Chasseurs & Cuirassiers are tanks; Dragons may be tanks or armored Inf; Genie are engineers.

May I also suggest looking at:

Forces Francais en Allegmaine (French Forces in Germany) (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forces_fran%C3%A7aises_en_Allemagne#Garnisons_des_ forces_françaises_en_Allemagne_(FFA)_du_10_août_19 49_au_30_août_1993)

You can get it to display when and where French Units were stationed in towns in Germany.

Uncle Ted

[shrike6]

6e Régiment de dragons is 6th Dragoon Regiment in English ie Cavalry.

[Adm.Lee]

I also do not believe that the size of a Regiment changed much in that time.

This is the key that I am looking for. I'm going to assume that the size of the regiments hasn't changed since the postwar reorganization, then. That confirms my sour feeling on the game "Brezhnev's War" as simulation.