Proposal: Updated Vehicles

[Desert Mariner]

The following vehicles are based on the LMTV and M-ATV families of US military vehicles and are envisioned to replace the Hummer and Commando series vehicles. Feedback/comments are highly encouraged.

The Morrow Logistics Vehicles (MLV) and Morrow Tactical Vehicles (MTV) are built on a common chassis and vary by payload (2.27- to 8-metric tons) and mission profile. These multi-purpose vehicles are capable of operating worldwide on primary and secondary roads, as well as on trails and cross-country in weather extremes from -46°C (-50°F) to 49°C (+120°F). The vehicles feature a parts commonality of more than 80 percent, resulting in streamlined maintenance, training, and sustainment.

Standard features/equipment includes:
--200kV fusion power plant
--Drive motors (1 per wheel) - 3-phase, 6-pole AC internal permanent-magnet motor producing 192 kW (258 hp) and 429 Nm (317 lbf-ft) of torque (≈70kg each) [equivalent to Tesla Model S motor]
--Electronic Central Tire Inflation System provides on-the-fly adjustment with three (3) payload and four (4) terrain settings. System enables the vehicle to travel at least 48km at 48km/h even if two tires lose pressure.
--395/85R20XML All Terrain Run Flat Tires (including spare)
--Environmentally controlled crew capsule
--Ceramic composite armor system provides protection from Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs) and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs)
--V-shaped hull designed to channel IED and mine blasts away from the vehicle
--Self-recovery winch capable of fore and aft recovery operations. Winch has 94m of 12.7mm cable capable of 7031kg bare drum pull at 110% overload
--Independent suspension system with 40.6cm of independent wheel travel
--Towing eyes, two (2) front, two (2) rear
--Pintle vertical load 250kg
--Fire suppression system – automatic and manual modes
--Interactive electronic operation and maintenance manuals integrated into an automated system diagnostic system
--C4 systems include: AutoNav, GPS, HF, VHF, UHF, SATCOM and vehicle intercoms; Centralized computers with smart displays allow data sharing between systems and other MLV/MTV, Counter Radio Electronic Warfare systems, Visible light and IR camera systems provide 360° coverage around the vehicle
--Infrared driving lights
--Bows and tarp kit (open bed MLV and trailers)
--Ladder stowed on the vehicle when not in use provides assistance to persons climbing in or out of the cargo bed area (open bed MLV)

Optional armament:
--Cab top, ring mounted, shielded gunners turret (M2, M240, Mk19, TOW)
__________________________________________________ __________
In order to preserve forum storage, details for all variants are not being uploaded at this time (those included here are marked with an asterisk in the following lists), pending feedback/interest. Variants spec’d out thus far include:

Logistics Vehicles (13):
--M1078 4x4 Standard Cargo Truck *
--M1079 4x4 Mobile Shop *
--M1083 6x6 Standard Cargo Truck
--M1084 6x6 Standard Cargo Truck with Material Handling Equipment *
--M1085 6x6 Long Wheel Base Cargo Truck
--M1086 6x6 Long Wheel Base Cargo Truck with Material Handling Equipment
--M1087 6x6 Expandable Van (mobile office)
--M1088 6x6 Tractor (line haul unit)
--M1089 6x6 Wrecker *
--M1090 6x6 5-Ton Dump Truck
--M1091 6x6 5680L Tanker
--M1148 6x6 8.8-Ton Load Handling System (flatrack & ISO container, TRICON shelters)
--M1157 6x6 10-Ton Dump

Logistic Trailers (3):
--M1082 2.5-ton Trailer *
--M1095 5-ton Trailer (including a 3400L Tanker variant)
--M1147 5-ton Load Handling System Trailer (flatrack & ISO container, TRICON shelters)

Tactical Vehicles (6) [all are 4x4 and referred to as the "2-series" in deference to the SCI- and MARS-One vehicles]:
--Command-2
--Engineer-2 (EOD and anti-mine)
--MARS-2 *
--Medic-2
--Recon-2
--Utility-2 (cargo)
__________________________________________________ __________

M1078 4x4 Standard Cargo Truck
Crew - 3 + 14
Length - 6.739m
Width - 2.438m
Height - 2.830m (3.772m with turret)
Curb Weight - 8068kg
Turning Radius - 11m (Curb to Curb) | 12.2m (Wall to Wall)
Ground Clearance - 0.559m
Max. Speed: 105 km/h (Road) | 65 km/h (Cross country) | 19 km/h (Sand/Mud/Snow)
Fording Depth - 0.76m (1.5m with fording kit)
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.4m
Approach/Departure Angle - 44° / 20°
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value (cab / bed) - 30 / 10 (B) | 60 / 20 (NB) | 6000 / 1500 (EX)
MP Deployment - 1982
Payload - 2268kg
Payload (Towed) - 5,443kg
Stats (4E) - SP 2601 | STR 102 | DEX 8 | PACE 16 | INT 20 | Mass 51
Description - Designed to carry personnel and cargo, the M1078 Standard Cargo Truck has a payload capacity of 2268kg and features hinge mounted side rails to facilitate loading and unloading. The 3.784 x 2.314m cargo bed can be equipped with composite bench seats for transport of up to fourteen (14) persons.
__________________________________________________ __________

M1079 4x4 Mobile Shop
Crew - 3
Length - 6.700m
Width - 2.438m
Height – 3.480m (3.772m with turret)
Curb Weight - 8550kg
Turning Radius - 11m (Curb to Curb) | 12.2m (Wall to Wall)
Ground Clearance - 0.559m
Max. Speed: 105 km/h (Road) | 65 km/h (Cross country) | 19 km/h (Sand/Mud/Snow)
Fording Depth - 0.76m (1.5m with fording kit)
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.4m
Approach/Departure Angle - 44° / 20°
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value (cab / bed) - 30 / 10 (B) | 60 / 20 (NB) | 6000 / 1500 (EX)
MP Deployment - 1982
Payload - 2268kg
Payload (Towed) - 5443kg
Stats (4E) - SP 2601 | STR 102 | DEX 8 | PACE 16 | INT 20 | Mass 51
Description – The M1079 is a shop on wheels. The van body is constructed of aluminum and is equipped with 3 double-paned windows, blackout shields, double rear doors, removable steps and ramp plus an AC/DC electrical distribution box. The van body is equipped with a heater and an air conditioner.

Shop variants include:
--The Armament Repair Set provides professional-grade tools to perform field level maintenance on a range of weaponry, from small arms to field artillery. The system includes a 10kW generator for shop power, as well as an assortment of tools and cabinet storage.
--The Automotive Set provides a common tool set with the capability to perform field-The level maintenance at all levels of materiel system repairs. The system contains a 10kW generator, Signal Entry Panel, and ergonomic storage of a complete tool load.
--The Equipment Maintenance Set provided immediate field-level maintenance and repair to ground support and aviation equipment. The SECM has industrial quality tools, light duty cutting and welding equipment, 10kW generator, and an on-board compressor and power inverter.
--The Metal Working and Machining Set delivers state of the art machining capabilities using two module types, Type I and Type II.
Type I contains a Computer Numeric Controlled (CNC) Lathe, Mill Drill, Multi-Process Welding (SMAW, GMAW. GTAW, pulse, flux core), Thermal Cutting equipment, Air-Arc Gouging, air compressor, Mobile Electric Power (MEP) generator for shop power, two (2) laptops with CAD/CAM software, and an assortment of hand/air tools.
Type II augments Type I and contains a CNC Milling Machine, Plasma table, two (2) laptops with CAD/CAM software, and an assortment of hand/air tools.
__________________________________________________ __________

M1084 6x6 Standard Cargo Truck with Material Handling Equipment
Crew - 3 + 16
Length - 7.800m
Width - 2.438m
Height - 2.845m (3.772m with turret)
Curb Weight – 11210kg
Turning Radius - 15m (Curb to Curb) | 16.2m (Wall to Wall)
Ground Clearance - 0.559m
Max. Speed: 105 km/h (Road) | 65 km/h (Cross country) | 19 km/h (Sand/Mud/Snow)
Fording Depth - 0.76m (1.5m with fording kit)
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.4m
Approach/Departure Angle - 44° / 20°
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value (cab / bed) - 30 / 10 (B) | 60 / 20 (NB) | 6720 / 1680 (EX)
MP Deployment - 1982
Payload – 4536kg
Payload (Towed) – 9543kg
Stats (4E) - SP 3136 | STR 112 | DEX 8 | PACE 16 | INT 20 | Mass 56
Description - Designed to carry personnel and cargo, the M1084 Standard Cargo Truck has a payload capacity of 4536kg and features hinge mounted side rails to facilitate loading and unloading. The M1084 is outfitted with Material Handling Equipment with a 2,268kg lifting capacity. The 4.318 x 2.314m cargo bed can be equipped with composite bench seats for transport of up to sixteen (16) persons.
__________________________________________________ __________

M1089 6x6 Wrecker
Crew - 3
Length – 9.623m
Width - 2.438m
Height - 2.845m (3.772m with turret)
Curb Weight – 18167kg
Turning Radius - 15m (Curb to Curb) | 16.2m (Wall to Wall)
Ground Clearance - 0.559m
Max. Speed: 105 km/h (Road) | 65 km/h (Cross country) | 19 km/h (Sand/Mud/Snow)
Fording Depth - 0.76m (1.5m with fording kit)
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.4m
Approach/Departure Angle - 44° / 20°
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value - 30 (B) | 60 (NB) | 6720 (EX)
MP Deployment - 1996
Payload (Towed) – 24948kg
Stats (4E) - SP 4536 | STR 132 | DEX 8 | PACE 16 | INT 20 | Mass 66
Description - The M1089 Wrecker is designed to recover vehicles in the 5 ton or less Curb Weight class. The M1089 Wrecker features front or rear disabled vehicle lift and tow capability. It is equipped with two 13608kg main winch assemblies with 92m of cable on each; plus a MHE rated at 4990kg with the boom extended at 4.25m. Both MHE and main winches feature remote control capabilities. Vertical lift capacity: 9752kg. Allows for flat tow operation without preparation using pintle mounted directly to rear cross member. A Mk 2 laser is carried for cutting and welding purposes.
__________________________________________________ __________

M1082 2.5-Ton Trailer
Length – 5.300m
Width - 2.438m
Height - 2.00m
Curb Weight – 2953kg
Ground Clearance - 0.343m
Max. Speed: see prime mover
Fording Depth - 0.76m
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.3m
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value - 30 (B) | 60 (NB) | 1080 (EX)
MP Deployment - 1982
Payload (Towed) - 2270kg
Stats (4E) - SP 1296 | STR 72 | INT 20 | Mass 36
Description - The M1082 2.5 ton Cargo Trailer has a single axle and its’ 3.78 x 2.31m cargo bed provides a payload capacity of 2270kg. The 1.5m high deck is equipped with hinged side rails to facilitate loading/unloading. The trailer is equipped with an air brake system actuated by the prime mover and a parking brake system to prevent movement of the trailer when not connected to the prime mover.

Specialized variants, each mounted on an enclosed, weather-tight M1082 include:
--The Foundry Set includes a 50kW fusion reactor, an Electric Arc Furnace (page 185 of TM 1-1 4e), Portable Forge (page 185 of TM 1-1 4e) and an assortment of hand tools.
--The Fusion Power Plant features a fusion reactor and accessories as described on page 184 of TM 1-1 4th edition.
--The Hydraulic Systems Set is a robust hydraulic repair system. It provides the capability to fabricate industry standard crimp-style hydraulic replacement hoses of all sizes, types, and end configurations. It also provides the ability to fabricate industry standard steel replacement hydraulic tubes used in brake lines and other high pressure applications and bends and flares these tubes as required to create a proper replacement item. Also includes an on-system diagnostic test meter that is used for troubleshooting hydraulic problems.
--The Water Purification Plant features tanks and accessories as described on page 185 of TM 1-1 4th edition.
--The Welding Set provides a full spectrum of welding capabilities.
__________________________________________________ __________

MARS-2
Crew – 3 + 8
Length – 7.466m
Width - 2.492m
Height - 2.654m (3.596m with turret)
Curb Weight – 16080kg
Turning Radius - 11m (Curb to Curb) | 12.2m (Wall to Wall)
Ground Clearance - 0.411m
Max. Speed: 105 km/h (Road) | 65 km/h (Cross country) | 19 km/h (Sand/Mud/Snow)
Fording Depth – 1.0m
Max. Gradient - 60%
Max. Cross Slope - 30%
Vertical Obstacle - 0.457m
Approach/Departure Angle - 44° / 44°
Trench - 0.5m
Armor Value - 50 (B) | 100 (NB) | 12600 (EX)
MP Deployment - 2008
Payload - 1996kg
Payload (Towed) – 18370kg
Stats (4E) - SP 3969 | STR 126 | DEX 8 | PACE 16 | INT 20 | Mass 63
Description - Protected transport in unpredictable environments. The MARS-2 is the highly protected, configurable design for unparalleled operational performance for successful offensive and defensive operations. Its extended crew capsule houses modular seating to accommodate up to 11 crew members on two forward-facing, three rear-facing seats and two rows of three inward-facing, fixed-configuration foldable seats.
--Two (2) rear hatches
--Two (2) roof hatches

[mmartin798]

Standard features/equipment includes:
--200kV fusion power plant
--Drive motors (1 per wheel) - 3-phase, 6-pole AC internal permanent-magnet motor producing 192 kW (258 hp) and 429 Nm (317 lbf-ft) of torque (≈70kg each) [equivalent to Tesla Model S motor]

Just a couple things I noticed and have questions on.

First, I will assume its a 200kW fusion power plant. I know, just a typo.

Second is the drive motors. As shown, assuming you can power all the motors, the total torque of the truck is 1716 Nm (1268 lb-ft) since I am assuming your specs are per in-wheel motor. The gas turbine in the M1 Abrams generates 2750 lb-ft of torque. So you have about 50% of the torque and only 30% of the mass of a M1 Abrams. That would make this thing a beast. But the power plant can only supply 25% of the power to run all four motors at maximum output. So either your motors are too big or you intend to run each motor at a lower power level for redundancy in case of a single motor failure to not lose performance. This should be clarified.

[ChalkLine]

Should project vehicles have slat armour kits?

[Desert Mariner]

Second is the drive motors.

So, I was concentrating on weight and spaced the total power. This brings up a question on project fusion plants. Per TM1-1, they go up to at least 1000kW @ 1kg per kW but there's no mention of volume. Based on weight of the ICE engine and transmission, I've got about 950kg to work with, which means up to a 950kW plant but is that realistic? And yes, the intent is for redundancy so that failure of 1 motor doesn't disable the vehicle. I'd guestimate that normal operation would be around 70-80% of max per motor.
And I admit that the motors I modeled may be overpowered in the aggregate as they are intended to function. This is why I'm inviting input from the group, many of which are likely smarter about EV power and other aspects than I am.

[Desert Mariner]

Should project vehicles have slat armour kits?

The RW versions of these vehicles can accept multiple "kits" of add-on armor so, I see no reason slat armor couldn't be added. The question then becomes how do you adjust the armor values?

I modeled a composite armor (from an online e patent) based on a forum post by Capt Gideon (sp?) and it came out at 150+ (the transparent armor windows were over 100) vs the 40-50 based on 4e rules.

[mmartin798]

This brings up a question on project fusion plants. Per TM1-1, they go up to at least 1000kW @ 1kg per kW but there's no mention of volume.

Yeah, this is a frustrating thing, but there is no easy answer. The 1kg/kW is true on the low end. The 1MW (1000 kW) reactor, if we assume the weight range corresponds with the power output listed in the description, weights 5000kg or 5kg/kW. So the more power it generates, the heavier it is per kW. Maybe the higher reaction rates require greater shielding for the flux of fast neutrons. This is the primary reason in my game, the portable reactors run on He3 and not H2 (D). He3-He3 fusion produces zero neutrons and therefore require minimal shielding. I assume there are D-D reactors in the Project, but they have a tech to strip out the He3 before it fuses to produce fuel for the portables.

But TM1-1 mentions heavy water as fuel for a portable reactor, so they are D-D or D-T reactors which are not aneutronic reactions.

[Desert Mariner]

Without details such as amperage, voltage, etc. it’s seemingly impossible to properly size motors powered with a fictional fusion power plant.

I did find that for Tesla motors the Max. Motor Power (output kW) equals approximately 162% of the Max. Battery Power (input kW). This was explained in a 2012 Tesla.com forum post as follows:

“Here is is simple layman explanation. Without the technical electrical limitations stuff.
You have an electric motor that has a specific amount of power. You have a car that this motor is in. Obviously this motor doesn't have infinite RPM climbing possibilities :). Being an electric though, means you have all that power available to you the second you hit the accelerator.
But now lets put this into context.
At rest, all that power gives you the torque that the model S has so far been praised for. "AT REST" and let me add "CLIMBING". This power gets the MS to say 100mph. Now think of it, if something was turning at 16,000rpm from rest to get you to 100mph as quickly as possible (considering weight..etc), do you realize that unless it starts turning at say 20,000rpm; it gets to a point where turning at 16,000rpm stops having as noticeable an affect on a car already doing 100mph as compared to one that was at rest. At that point, there is no need to even draw that much power anymore considering the car is already going "fast" all you have to do is draw enough power to make it go faster and at a more relaxed pace.
At 100mph, and being held there... the MS may actually be drawing less power cause it doesn't need to draw that much power to get itself up to speed and only needs to intermittently draw just enough juice to maintain your current speed. Think of it as using you hand to spin a fixed bicycle wheel, to get it up to speed you constantly apply force to the wheel, at say two turns every second. Once up to speed though, all you need to do is turn it once every 20 seconds to maintain that current speed.”

If this is applied directly to a 200kW fusion plant (input), the total drive motor output available would be approximately 326kW. Thus, I propose changing the drive motors as follows:

MTV 4x4 ICE engine produces 370hp (276kW) and 925ft-lb.
MLV motor produces 275hp (205kW) and 925ft-lb.

MTV (4x4): To match the ICE hp output, we need four (4) 70kW (94hp) electric motors producing a total output of 280kW (375hp), drawing a total of 172kW (input).

MLV (4x4): To (nearly) match the ICE hp output, we need four (4) 50kW (67hp) producing a total output of 200kW (268hp), drawing a total of 123kW (input). Alternatively, the 70kW motors above could be utilized.

MLV (6x6): To match the ICE hp output, we need six (6) 50kW (67hp) producing a total output of 300kW (402hp), drawing a total of 184kW (input).
Torque for individual motors would be 250ft-lb (339N-m), giving the 4x4 models a total of 1000ft-lb (1356 Nm) and the 6x6 models 1500ft-lb (2033 Nm). Since the 6x6 variants tend to be heavy haulers (i.e. wreckers, dump trucks, line haulers, etc.) I see no reason to “create” a separate motor with lower torque.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I can't really add anything to the discussion about power source or electric motors but in the spirit of brainstorming, it might be worth looking at the LeTourneau company (and discussions about them) for information about electric drives. They've been in the business of manufacturing large vehicles with electrically powered wheel motors since the 1960s.

Granted their tech is focussed on earth-moving and construction vehicles and the electrical generation is typically done by a diesel generator but there's a few gems of info to be found in websites that discuss the company or their products. For example, there's been mention on a few websites that the diesel electric configuration is very quiet and it's probably safe to assume that Project vehicles would have the same level of stealth (or better) but that is something that is rarely mentioned (if ever) in any Project material that I've read.
The hybrid drive that LeTourneau used is reasonably common for various heavy plant so it might be worth checking other companies as well like Komatsu and so on.

[Desert Mariner]

Thanks for the resource.

I think I may have found an answer in an older forum (What Fusion Power means to the Project) post by mmartin798. He suggested using Moog in hub motors. The DB-22000-E he suggested may be a bit overpowered torque wise (understatement) but I think it's close enough for now.

Moog DB-22000-E Brushless DC Motor

Size: 12.7cm (D) x 13.081 cm (frameless)
Weight: 82.1kg
Input: 16kW
Peak Output: 2539 ft-lb (3442Nm)


The thread also discussed the need to provide vehicle power but didn't arrive at any conclusions. Moog also manufacturers in hub alternators so, I'd pair the above with:

Moog AG-5250-F-2ES

Size: 13.335cm (D) x 5.969 cm (frameless)
Weight: 25.63kg
Output: 3590W / 259V continuous


This gives as 107.73kg per hub. In keeping with the original post, increase the total mass to 130kg and double the size to account for frame, sensors, etc.

[mmartin798]

I remember that discussion. I was basing much of that on the Oshkosh Defense HEMTT A3 that used their ProPulse hybrid diesel-electric drive train. The HEMTT A3 only uses one motor per axle rather than one per wheel. The one motor per axle approach may be better for a mine resistant vehicle, since the motor will be behind armor.

[Desert Mariner]

I was thinking along the same line of using 1 motor per axle; but we lose the redundancy. Plus, I was trying to minimize the number of different motors and support systems to shorten the supply chain.

I think my original concept (not posted) was one 192kW (258hp), 429Nm motor, drawing 118kW per axle vice hub. This meant using a 250kW fusion plant for the 4x4s but that's probably manageable. The 6x6 variants would then need 350kW plants or down-sized motors.

This would be so much easier if BEM had brought back mature plans for Inductance Energy Corp.'s Earth Engine, which uses magnetic propulsion to generate energy.

https://e-catworld.com/2019/03/15/inductance-energy-corporation-iec-shows-installed-magnet-motor-in-las-vegas-video/

[nuke11]

For example, there's been mention on a few websites that the diesel electric configuration is very quiet and it's probably safe to assume that Project vehicles would have the same level of stealth (or better) but that is something that is rarely mentioned (if ever) in any Project material that I've read.

I've been working on a spreadsheet of "sound levels" dB for different events, areas, equipment, weapons and vehicles for the TMP.

Now from my research a eMotorcycle is 60 dB, eSnowmobile is 62 dB, average gasoline car is 70 dB, HMMWV is 77 dB. So I was thinking an MPV would be around 58 to 62 (still not completely set on that value yet).

[Desert Mariner]

[QUOTE=nuke11;81030So I was thinking an MPV would be around 58 to 62 (still not completely set on that value yet).[/QUOTE]

From what I've read recently, the EV is virtually silent below 10km/h and ICE is about 10db louder. Above that, the sound levels converge rapidly as the majority of the sound is aerodynamic (wind) and tire noise rather than from the engine/transmission.

[nuke11]

From what I've read recently, the EV is virtually silent below 10km/h and ICE is about 10db louder. Above that, the sound levels converge rapidly as the majority of the sound is aerodynamic (wind) and tire noise rather than from the engine/transmission.
They are very quite and I've been watching videos of electric vehicles, bikes and a couple of snowmobiles and they are quite. But we really can't have a silent vehicle. So there has to be a trade off somewhere.

Here are some common sounds and that is why I have placed it around 60 dB, but it could lay closer to 50 dB as it is moving.

Rustling Leaves 20 dB
Whisper 30 dB
Wind @ 10 km/h 30 dB
Refrigerator Electric Motor Hum 40 dB
Light Traffic 50 dB
Normal Conversion 60 dB
Wind @ 20 km/h 62 dB

A really interesting article of now much noise an electric vehicle makes : http://www.vejdirektoratet.dk/DA/viden_og_data/publikationer/Lists/Publikationer/Attachments/853/niose-from-electric-vehicles.pdf