Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[therantingsavant]

Horsemen of the Apocalypse: Cavalry rules in the Twilight World (https://therantingsavant.blogspot.com/2019/03/horsemen-of-apocalypse-cavalry-in.html)

This post is the distillation of a lot of research from this forum combined with an analysis of the RAW from the T2k v2.2 corebook but in particular the threads: Cavalry in Twilight 2000 (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2649), Cavalry in T2K (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=614&highlight=Cavalry) and the excellent: Cavalry and Bicycles 2.2.2 PDF (https://forum.juhlin.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2241&d=1358772623)

Feedback and discussion welcome!

[Vespers War]

A criticism of the rules rather than the post - the mule is listed with an 80 kg load, but per the World War I era handbook for Quartermasters, a mule's typical load was 250 pounds, or ~113 kilos. The J-118 Escort Wagon was a 2-mule wagon that had a typical load of 3000 pounds (1360 kg), and on flat-and-level road could carry 5000 pounds (2260 kg). For horses, the US Cavalry Manual of Horse Management recommended loads be limited to 20% of a horse's weight, so that 350 kg horse would have a load of 70 kg (or, conversely, the 120 kg load would belong to a 600 kg horse). Some sources suggest that can go up to 30% of body weight, but that puts more stress on the horse according to veterinary studies.

One alternative not discussed in the rules is the use of dogs as pack animals. They can carry half their body weight and pull a cart or sled with double their body weight.

While they likely wouldn't be built until years into the post-war collapse, Conestogas with 4-7 horses could haul 5 tons over rather terrible roads, though usually 1 or 2 tons were given over to fodder for the horses (giving about 12-42 days of range from the absolute minimum of 1 ton for 7 horses up to the maximum of 2 tons for 4 horses).

The overland travel being the same makes sense to me. Strategically, cavalry units were often slower than infantry because of the time needed to care for the animals and their walking speed not being significantly faster. Cavalry is effective because of their tactical speed.

On a battlefield with any sort of automatic weapons, acting as dragoons makes the most sense, as a horse is a large target and a prone human is much smaller.

For the height difference, I'd use the Punch hit location table from James Langham's Unarmed Combat, and say that a mounted attacker hitting an infantry defender rolls 1d4 for hit location, while the infantry attacker hitting a mounted defender rolls 1d8+2 (and flips a coin for which arm if it comes up as arm).

[therantingsavant]

Thanks Vespers for the feedback and suggestions.

The mule's load always seemed off to me and I think it should be swapped with that of the horse but was writing RAW (rules as written) - I may add an edit in suggesting this "House Rule" quoting you however as it makes a lot of sense. (Edit: this has been inserted as a "sidebar" attributed to Vespers)

Hadn't thought of dogs actually, probably a whole separate post/article on the use of trained animals would be warranted if it's not been done before.

As for Conestogas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon), I'd always assumed the cart and wagon were the basic ones - heavier capacity rail-car wagons of 5 tons are briefly mentioned in Going Home which would not be dissimilar except the low friction of the rails allows less horses. I'd wonder if oxen would be more appropriate for the heavier wagons however. Maybe it needs a vehicle card actually.

Your overland travel rationale makes sense - I just found it odd as most systems have faster overland travel for mounted groups (although it's usually based on higher movement rate IIRC). Wayne has pointed out that there's a hit modifier for fast speed that a galloping rider can take advantage of so the tactical speed is really what makes the difference, even if dismounting is needed to be effective with automatic weapons. I still think there should be a benefit for melee combat while mounted or charging with a lance ruling but it's not that common a scenario to be fair. I will have to check out Jame's rules but that simplification makes sense based on what I thought.

I'll try and edit in some of these suggestions I think... :)

[Vespers War]

Thanks Vespers for the feedback and suggestions.

The mule's load always seemed off to me and I think it should be swapped with that of the horse but was writing RAW (rules as written) - I may add an edit in suggesting this "House Rule" quoting you however as it makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I saw that you were working off the data cards, which was why I made sure to caveat it as a criticism of the rules, not the article.

Hadn't thought of dogs actually, probably a whole separate post/article on the use of trained animals would be warranted if it's not been done before.

I'm not aware of any, and it would be a useful thing. I thought of it because I've talked with a couple Iditarod mushers about their experiences, and a Canadian exhibit on mail sleds mentioned the load limits for pack dogs.

As for Conestogas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conestoga_wagon), I'd always assumed the cart and wagon were the basic ones - heavier capacity rail-car wagons of 5 tons are briefly mentioned in Going Home which would not be dissimilar except the low friction of the rails allows less horses. I'd wonder if oxen would be more appropriate for the heavier wagons however. Maybe it needs a vehicle card actually.

I agree that the existing carts are more similar to regular farm carts or the Escort Wagon. I just figure someone in PA would try to bring Conestogas back at some point. I also had the information for them since the Army Transportation Museum has one as an example of Revolutionary War transport.

Oxen will pull around their own body weight at a speed of roughly 2 miles per hour for about 5 hours per day. A draft horse pulls basically the same amount, but for up to 8 hours, and is slightly faster at around 3 miles per hour. So an ox cart will cover about 10 miles per day in one period of travel, while a horse cart will be around 24 miles per day in two periods of travel. However, the horses are less sturdy and require more care, and most of them will be slightly smaller than an ox (although Shires are right up there with cattle in size).

[StainlessSteelCynic]

@ therantingsavant
Are you considering looking into other pack animals? Depending on the location there could be camels, llamas, alpacas, goats and so on (and even elephants). I know yak and water buffalo have been used as pack animals but they're probably similar enough to oxen for the sake of the rules.

As for draft animals, dogs have been mentioned but there could also be camels, goats and apparently llamas have also been used as harness animals.

Other than that, I've nothing to actually contribute to the discussion but just wanted to say thanks to both of you (savant & Vespers) for all the great information.

[Olefin]

Very much in line with the 1st Kenyan Mounted Cavalry Regiment that is in my East Africa Kenya source book - i.e. they fight as dragoons using the horses for transportation and then dismount and fight as infantry - i.e

Tactics

The Regiment fights as dragoons, using the horses for transport but not taking them into battle if it can be helped. On at least three occasions, due to ambushes, they have been forced to fight from horseback, with serious losses in horses and men each time. When in combat, one man from each six is tasked to handle the horses while the rest deploy to fight.

Usually the Regiment deploys without the heavy weapons squadron for patrols, only using that for missions where the heavier firepower will be needed, as the caissons slow them down and have broken down in rough terrain before.

[therantingsavant]

@Cynic - I haven't looked at other staff animals as was concentrating on the Polish setting but yes take and water buffalo are similar enough to oxen when I've researched them for other RPGs sure.

Camels are very different.

Still have to think about hounds both as companion animals and also for pack purposes, not so sure about sleds.

Need to check the Kenyan sourcebook. [emoji848]

Thanks for the feedback.


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[Vespers War]

Sleds are mentioned in Bear's Den, but either there weren't rules or I didn't like them, because I don't have any notes about the rules.

[Olefin]

@Cynic - I haven't looked at other staff animals as was concentrating on the Polish setting but yes take and water buffalo are similar enough to oxen when I've researched them for other RPGs sure.

Camels are very different.

Still have to think about hounds both as companion animals and also for pack purposes, not so sure about sleds.

Need to check the Kenyan sourcebook. [emoji848]

Thanks for the feedback.


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Here you go - from the sourcebook that was published two years ago

1st Kenyan Mounted Cavalry Regiment - Lodwar
· Manpower: 210 men
· Artillery: two 81mm mortars

The Regiment was organized in 1998, starting with a cadre of fifty horsemen and two hundred horses that had been used previously for horse safari tours, organized by a retired veteran of the Household Mounted Cavalry Regiment of the British Army who immigrated to Kenya in 1988 after twenty years’ service. Its personnel are all trained horsemen and women, drawn mostly from the white population of Kenya who owned most of the horses in the country pre-war.

The regiment consists of a headquarters squadron, three cavalry squadrons, and a horse drawn heavy weapons squadron. It is modeled on the British Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment, with each cavalry squadron, at full strength, consisting of two divisions, each of one officer and twenty four enlisted personnel, while the headquarters squadron consists of only one division. In addition, it is supported by a training squadron of one officer and thirty six enlisted men.

The HQ and Cavalry squadrons of the Regiment are armed with 9mm Browning pistols and G3 rifles, while the heavy weapons squadron is armed with the Sterling MkIV instead of the G3. In addition, each cavalry division has a Bren light machine gun (instead of the G3) and two M79 grenade launchers. The heavy weapons squadron has two M2HB machine guns, two 81mm mortars and two RPG-7 launchers with three missiles each. The Regiment fights as dragoons, using the horses for transport only.

[therantingsavant]

Sleds are mentioned in Bear's Den, but either there weren't rules or I didn't like them, because I don't have any notes about the rules.

Page 32 yes - I'll post the screenshot when I get a chance to edit this post from my laptop but essentially - 7 dogs, on driver + 90kg load and 20km/he.

[therantingsavant]

Thanks Olefin - that makes sense. Presumably the mortars and MGs are packed on the horses rather than drawn on caissons / limbers like large bore artillery?


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[therantingsavant]

Thanks Olefin - that makes sense. Presumably the mortars and MGs are packed on the horses rather than drawn on caissons / limbers like large bore artillery?


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[Olefin]

The heavy weapons squadron has caissons/wagons for the mortars and M2HB machine guns. They can also carry them on horses if need be but with less ammo for the guns and the mortars if they do so, so you get a trade off of more maneuverability for less ammo if you get into a major fight.

[therantingsavant]

Ok that tradeoff makes sense I was thinking of the mobility aspect for cantonment based units with capacity for storage - particularly the Soviet 96th Cavalry Division based out of Torun which is part of some of the "North of Kalisz / Lower Vistula" gazetteer material I'm working on. I was picturing highly mobile scouts that could deploy the occasional heavy weapon as dragoons.

But I can see that units travelling overland to a destination eg the remnants of the 89th Cavalry Division returning to their homeland would find caissons and limbers an advantage for the extra ammo capacity and they'd need carts/wagons for the extra feed as well if constantly on the move.





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[therantingsavant]

Double post

[therantingsavant]

Modern horse armory?

https://goo.gl/images/SFWCFz


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[StainlessSteelCynic]

Modern horse armory?

https://goo.gl/images/SFWCFz


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I believe that that armour is specifically slash-resistant/stab-resistant panels because a favourite trick of some rioters has been to slash the tendons on the legs of the horse or cut its throat.
However in this day and age it would not surprise me if they're also giving ballistic protection to their mounts.

[therantingsavant]

This was interesting also in terms.of constructing armory using modern materials and methods (includes prior link also):

https://www.quora.com/Hypothetical-Scenarios-How-would-you-design-horse-armor-using-modern-materials-manufacturing-methods-and-improved-understanding-of-animal-physiology



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[rcaf_777]

Just wonder how long does it take to teach someone to ride a horse?

[Olefin]

Comes down to what you are trying to teach them to do

Riding a horse as in just riding it from point A to point B with no other distractions?

Or riding a horse in combat conditions and being able to control it while there are bullets and artillery shells going off?

Same with the horse itself - i.e. there are horses you can ride, horses that can pull a wagon and horses that can be ridden into combat and not freak out

To learn to ride a horse on trails usually takes the average person about a week to two weeks if they are doing it several hours per day. Now keep in mind that would be a person who had never ridden a horse before with a well broken in horse. Now if its a total neophyte on a barely broken in horse it would take a lot more.

One thing to keep in mind for all cavalry formations is if they took people who already knew how to ride and who may have even brought their own horses - i.e. the Kenyan Cavalry unit was created by people who were lifetime riders using their own horses starting with a few people who had military training

There are countries where raising a cavalry unit due to how many people still ride would easier - i.e. Russia, Ethiopia, the US, China, England, Poland for instance come to mind - the question is are the cavalry units in the Army guides composed of neophytes who had to be taught to ride or did they comb every unit in the area to find people who knew how to ride horses and "trade" for them - i.e. here you can have these 200 guys who dont know how to ride in exchange for those 100 guys you have who do?

[Raellus]

To learn to ride a horse on trails usually takes the average person about a week to two weeks if they are doing it several hours per day. Now keep in mind that would be a person who had never ridden a horse before with a well broken in horse.

If the horse is well broken in, you can learn and apply the basics of horsemanship a lot more quickly than that. After a five minute orientation, my kids (12 and 9 at the time), who had never ridden before, were riding just fine. After about an hour on the trail, they were confident enough to try galloping. I hadn't ridden a horse since I was in grade school, 30 years or so ago, and I had no problem controlling my mount. There is a caveat, though- this was on a trail with experienced riders/guides.

I would say, for dragoons, a couple of weeks of intensive training would do the trick. Riding probably wouldn't even take up majority of the cycle. Most of that time would be devoted to care and maintenance of the horses and tackle.

It would be really helpful to have a cadre of experienced riders to assist with training and whatnot, but as long as broken-in mounts are available, raising dragoon units from completely inexperienced city slickers wouldn't be that difficult, or even particularly time-consuming. Like I said, assuming they'd already had basic, in a pinch, said prospective dragoons could be up and ready to go a couple of weeks. The salient factor is the availability of ready riding horses and suitable tackle. That's the main limiter.

[Olefin]

I would say Raellus that also depends on what kind of country you are riding thru as well - i.e. its one thing to ride horses over open relatively level ground - its another to ride over rough broken terrain or thru forests where you have to be able to maneuver them

and also are they dragoons, cavalry or lancers - dragoons are basically using the horses as transport and nothing more, cavalry are going into combat with the horses (both mounted and unmounted), while lancers are using the horse the old fashioned way - to put a hell of a lot of speed and force behind the lance you are putting right thru the unlucky chest of the people you are fighting

one thing the canon really didnt make clear is with the units that switched to cavalry (except in Silesia which clearly showed them armed with lances) what they were as to type of mounted forces

[therantingsavant]

It would be really helpful to have a cadre of experienced riders to assist with training and whatnot, but as long as broken-in mounts are available, raising dragoon units from completely inexperienced city slickers wouldn't be that difficult, or even particularly time-consuming. Like I said, assuming they'd already had basic, in a pinch, said prospective dragoons could be up and ready to go a couple of weeks. The salient factor is the availability of ready riding horses and suitable tackle. That's the main limiter.

RAW, T2k v2.2 p138-139 Skill Improvement "Instruction" suggests:

Instruction: A character may be taught a skill. Teaching a skill is Difficult: Instruction. The instructor may teach a number of students
equal to his Instruction skill level and must have a skill level in the skill being taught. An instructor cannot teach a student whose skill level in the subject taught is equal to or greater than that of the instructor. The task takes one period per day for one week (seven consecutive days). Successful completion of the task (rolled for at the end of the week) results in experience points for both the students and the instructor. The instructor gains experience
for accomplishing a task as explained in the experience rules. Students gain a number of experience points (in the skill being taught) based on the number of students being taught.

If the number of students is less than half of the instructor's skill level, each student gains three experience points. If the number of students is half or more of the instructor's skill level, each student gains one experience
point.

New Skills: A character with no level in a particular skill (as differentiated from level 0 in a skill) may attempt to learn the skill. This may be done either through observation (in which case the level gained is 0) or through instruction (in which case the skill level gained is 1 ). In either case, the experience point cost will be 1.

So this implies that a cavalry officer with Instruction 2+ (CHR) and a basic Horsemanship (CON) skill could teach a group of infantrymen with no experience with horses all Horsemanship 2 in about 3-4 weeks.

So I'd think in-game, the limiting factor is the horses and tack.

[Legbreaker]

Worth bearing in mind that even somebody with no skill can sit on a horse and generally get it to go in the right direction. That's represented in 2.x as defaulting back to the controlling attribute.
Actually having some skill represents being able to do more than just sit there. Being able to do it well, takes a hell of a lot longer than a few weeks too!
My sister is 41 and has been riding competitively since she was about 6 years old. She's STILL taking lessons twice a week even though she's of olympic skill level.

A lot of it comes down to the horse though. A well trained horse with the right temperament in T2K would be worth more than it's weight in gold. A poorly trained horse, or one with an "attitude" is worth little more than the meals it can provide.

[Olefin]

A lot of it comes down to the horse though. A well trained horse with the right temperament in T2K would be worth more than it's weight in gold. A poorly trained horse, or one with an "attitude" is worth little more than the meals it can provide.

AMEN - have seen this for myself - used to live in farm country and there were horses that anyone could get on ride and there were "If I were you I would choose another horse" kind of horses - usually followed by I told you so statements after you got picked off the ground

[Raellus]

I would say Raellus that also depends on what kind of country you are riding thru as well - i.e. its one thing to ride horses over open relatively level ground - its another to ride over rough broken terrain or thru forests where you have to be able to maneuver them

Fair point, but my kids rode their first trail in Flagstaff, Arizona, in a forest, with lots of loose lava rock littering the ground, and plenty of elevation changes- i.e. broken terrain/forest. And they did fine with only a 5-minute orientation.

[Raellus]

Have any of you ever sat through all of making-of features of the Lord Of the Rings trilogy? (I think it's from the The Two Towers bonus content) There's an interesting bit about assembling the "Rohirrim" for the shoot that could provide some insight into this topic. The production company put out an all-call for experienced riders to serve as extras in the film. A couple hundred Kiwis answered the call. They were set up with costumes and props and the rest is celluloid history. I can see a similar thing happening in T2K, but with real, modern weapons instead of rubber medieval ones.

Anyway, in a T2K scenario, cavalry units would be raised in a couple of ways. First, all-volunteer units like Olefin's Kenyan example. Second, levies with requisitioned horses.

I can see some, more independent-minded horse owners balking at turning their prized horseflesh over to the government/military, and you might see anti-gov't mounted partisan groups forming as a result. Think about someone like Cliven Bundy and his ilk in the U.S.A.

[Olefin]

Have any of you ever sat through all of making-of features of the Lord Of the Rings trilogy? (I think it's from the The Two Towers bonus content) There's an interesting bit about assembling the "Rohirrim" for the shoot that could provide some insight into this topic. The production company put out an all-call for experienced riders to serve as extras in the film. A couple hundred Kiwis answered the call. They were set up with costumes and props and the rest is celluloid history. I can see a similar thing happening in T2K, but with real, modern weapons instead of rubber medieval ones.

Anyway, in a T2K scenario, cavalry units would be raised in a couple of ways. First, all-volunteer units like Olefin's Kenyan example. Second, levies with requisitioned horses.

I can see some, more independent-minded horse owners balking at turning their prized horseflesh over to the government/military, and you might see anti-gov't mounted partisan groups forming as a result. Think about someone like Cliven Bundy and his ilk in the U.S.A.

I completely agree with you there about some people being pretty testy if they get ordered to turn over their horses and deciding they were going to do something about it. Especially if it means they are losing their only means of transportation in the bargain. And I can see people who love horses seeing them getting mistreated by some converted infantryman and not being very happy about it.

[rcaf_777]

in bicycle vs horse calvary, bicycles win hands done you only have one (rider) vs two (rider and animal)

[Raellus]

in bicycle vs horse calvary, bicycles win hands done you only have one (rider) vs two (rider and animal)

Good point, but bicycles are pretty much road-bound whereas horses are not. Advantage horse-cav.

[Legbreaker]

For most of Australia's history, the army has been purely a volunteer force made up primarily of infantry - every single soldier actually WANTED to be there. Some cavalry units existed, and there was authorisation for even greater numbers, however the sticking point was cavalrymen had to provide their own horses....

On a different, but related note...
https://www.awm.gov.au/wartime/44/page54_bou
https://www.historyhit.com/the-role-of-horses-in-world-war-one/
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/world-war-one-horses.html
https://youtu.be/7yuZ4vowQJc

[therantingsavant]

Good point, but bicycles are pretty much road-bound whereas horses are not. Advantage horse-cav.


Good point - Travel Move for bicycles is 65/15 vs mounted max 40/40 (horse forced marched) or 30/30 (mule force marched).

So if you have access to roads bicycles have an edge in speed and need less food (rider only) and some upkeep but lose out with load (only what the rider can carry vs what mount can carry) and need (minimal) maintenance - as the Twilight world progresses and roads deteriorate the balance will presumably shift...

I've got some notes for a bicycle article and motorcycles in the Twilight World need their own treatment but still thinking it over [emoji848]






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[Vespers War]

I did a very short post on World War I motorcycles (stats, no analysis) on my blog (http://vesperswar.blogspot.com/2017/05/motorcycles-of-great-war.html) in 2017.

[therantingsavant]

I did a very short post on World War I motorcycles (stats, no analysis) on my blog (http://vesperswar.blogspot.com/2017/05/motorcycles-of-great-war.html) in 2017.



Thanks will check it out - there's an article I found somewhere on WW2 Army motorcycles that was decent will try and dig it out and link if I get a chance...

Edit: found it here (https://www.thrillist.com/cars/history-of-u-s-military-motorcycles).


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[rcaf_777]

Good point - Travel Move for bicycles is 65/15 vs mounted max 40/40 (horse forced marched) or 30/30 (mule force marched).

So if you have access to roads bicycles have an edge in speed and need less food (rider only) and some upkeep but lose out with load (only what the rider can carry vs what mount can carry) and need (minimal) maintenance - as the Twilight world progresses and roads deteriorate the balance will presumably shift...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've got some notes for a bicycle article and motorcycles in the Twilight World need their own treatment but still thinking it over [emoji848]

Before we make rash decisions let do some reading

http://www.combatreform.org/atb.htm
https://www.landroverweb.com/mountain-bike-montague-paratrooper-shop.htm
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2018/05/09/10-things-you-want-to-know-about-the-most-legendary-army-unit-on-two-wheels/
https://www.bikeshophub.com/blog/2017/02/27/the-swiss-army-bicycle-did-all-that-and-more

[Legbreaker]

Only 50 lbs /22 kgs for an infantryman? :rolleyes:
In what reality is that? My webbing alone was usually about that heavy!

[rcaf_777]

Only 50 lbs /22 kgs for an infantryman? :rolleyes:
In what reality is that? My webbing alone was usually about that heavy!

Its an average, soldiers should carry no more 32% of their total body weight
or they risk becoming combat ineffective do fatigue

my total carry limit is 64 pounds, which includes, ruck, webbing, helmet, weapon and body armor

[rcaf_777]

More info, remember this is not a new concept

http://ridethisbike.com/2007/02/paratrooper-folding-bikes-military.html

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2008/12/on-bike-musical-instruments-bicycle.html -Scroll to number 7.

[CDAT]

I've got some notes for a bicycle article and motorcycles in the Twilight World need their own treatment but still thinking it over [emoji848]

Before we make rash decisions let do some reading

http://www.combatreform.org/atb.htm
https://www.landroverweb.com/mountain-bike-montague-paratrooper-shop.htm
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2018/05/09/10-things-you-want-to-know-about-the-most-legendary-army-unit-on-two-wheels/
https://www.bikeshophub.com/blog/2017/02/27/the-swiss-army-bicycle-did-all-that-and-more

I am not saying that the chart is wrong, just that it does not match up with what I have seen and read other places. Some maybe just because they simplified things down, I have read several places that during the American Civil War/Indian Wars Infantry would move greater distances per day than Cavalry. From what I have been told (by reenactors) is that the time taken to feed and care for the horse is what makes the difference, but this is all second hand at best. When I was deployed to Iraq we did movements lots of time of 400+ miles in a day, day in and day out. It looks like they have their figures for only a eight hour work day, not sure what military works that few hours in a day. As for the AAV the image makes it look like it is wheeled, but the only AAV that I know of is the USMC Assault Amphibious Vehicle and it is tracked but still able to do up to 45mph on road so not sure why they limited it to 66% max (understand not having it go max out) when the 5 ton with a max of about 50-55 depending on truck (from first hand experience) they have doing 40 or about 80% of max. And lastly three gallons of water per troop per day? Is that for field hygiene as well as drinking? If not that sounds like a lot to me to be drinking unless you are walking for eight to ten hours. So I guess I am saying I do not have enough background to say it is wrong, but enough to say it looks weird.

[Vespers War]

And lastly three gallons of water per troop per day? Is that for field hygiene as well as drinking? If not that sounds like a lot to me to be drinking unless you are walking for eight to ten hours. So I guess I am saying I do not have enough background to say it is wrong, but enough to say it looks weird.

It's not too far off for arid or jungle environments. The Army's Water Planning Guide (https://quartermaster.army.mil/pwd/publications/water/Water_Planning_Guide_rev_103008_dtd_Nov_08_(5-09).pdf) calls for 1.65 gallons per soldier per day in temperate climes, 2.2 gallons/soldier/day in the cold, and 3.3 gal/sol/day for jungle or arid environments. That doesn't include water for food preparation, hygiene, or medical treatment.

[Legbreaker]

Its an average, soldiers should carry no more 32% of their total body weight or they risk becoming combat ineffective do fatigue

Never going to happen in reality. As mentioned, my webbing alone often weighed about that. Add in pack, etc and I doubt I ever came in at less that 50 kgs, and that at a time when I was only 65kgs myself!

That said, I could carry that load at a fast walk (about 8kph/5mph) pretty much all day long. Make me run more than a few paces though and I was done.

[therantingsavant]

Hmmm wondering whether should split off a collated bicycle thread actually although there's still some overlap [emoji848]


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[Raellus]

Hmmm wondering whether should split off a collated bicycle thread actually although there's still some overlap [emoji848]


That's a good idea. I know we've had horse-cav threads before, but I can't remember if we've ever had a dedicated bicycle thread.

[Vespers War]

That's a good idea. I know we've had horse-cav threads before, but I can't remember if we've ever had a dedicated bicycle thread.

There was one that started in 2013 (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=4183&highlight=bicycle) and got reactivated last June.

This one (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2649) started out as horse cavalry but quickly moved on to bicycles.

[unkated]

@Cynic - I haven't looked at other staff animals as was concentrating on the Polish setting but yes take and water buffalo are similar enough to oxen when I've researched them for other RPGs sure.

Camels are very different.

Still have to think about hounds both as companion animals and also for pack purposes, not so sure about sleds.

Need to check the Kenyan sourcebook. [emoji848]


I have. Camels, Llamas, and Reindeer (nothern Scandinavia and northern Russia).

i also found an old adventure I had been working on back the in V1 days that took place in Alaska, and had dogsleds. I need to revisit that.

Uncle Ted

[dragoon500ly]

Pulled this from some old Cavalry Journal articles...interesting!

Horses require 12 pounds of grain per day (mostly corn).

A wagon, pulled by a 6-mule team can haul roughly 2,000lbs.

Wearing pack saddles, the same 6 mules can carry only 200lbs each, total of 1,200 pounds. Mules require 10lbs of grain per day.

Terry's Column (Little Bighorn Campaign) numbered some 1,131 personnel and 1,694 horses and mules required eight tons of supply per day, carried by 150 wagons...even when rolling four abreast, the wagon column stretched over a half mile.

[therantingsavant]

Has anyone seen Twelve Strong ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_Strong)?

Chris Hemsworth movie about the 5th Special Forces group that travelled Afghanistan on horseback just after 9/11.


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[Legbreaker]

Not a bad movie, but they downplayed the part the Afghani's played a bit I thought.
Certainly more entertainment value than educational even if it is basically a true story (I believe they switched a few events around and changed who got hurt, when and how badly).

[therantingsavant]

Certainly more entertainment value than educational even if it is basically a true story (I believe they switched a few events around and changed who got hurt, when and how badly).

Found this (http://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/12-strong/), was interesting to compare to the movie.

[Raellus]

https://warisboring.com/us-cavalry-unit-commemorates-gen-pattons-order-to-save-hundreds-of-lipizzaner-stallions-from-being-eaten-by-soviets/

[rcaf_777]

Never going to happen in reality. As mentioned, my webbing alone often weighed about that. Add in pack, etc and I doubt I ever came in at less that 50 kgs, and that at a time when I was only 65kgs myself!

That said, I could carry that load at a fast walk (about 8kph/5mph) pretty much all day long. Make me run more than a few paces though and I was done.

Is there a point here or is this just you bragging about how much you can carry? what's next? are you going to whip it out too?

[Olefin]

Is there a point here or is this just you bragging about how much you can carry? what's next? are you going to whip it out too?

lol

[Targan]

Don't make me whip it out. The weather's been cold lately and I won't be looking my best. I'll bet Tassie is colder at the moment, but maybe Leg's got length to spare :D

[Legbreaker]

Is there a point here or is this just you bragging about how much you can carry? what's next? are you going to whip it out too?

Of course there is. Real world example of why the figures are rubbish.
I'm sure any other infantryman could say basically the same thing.

[Olefin]

Don't make me whip it out. The weather's been cold lately and I won't be looking my best. I'll bet Tassie is colder at the moment, but maybe Leg's got length to spare :D

LOL

[swaghauler]

Of course there is. Real world example of why the figures are rubbish.
I'm sure any other infantryman could say basically the same thing.

In my basic, We had to carry 80lbs (or 75% of body weight if less than 80lbs) for 20 miles under time (6 hours) to graduate basic. The grunts had to do it in like 4 hours. When I was with the Mountain, we had to do 30 miles in 6 hours with "Full Ruck" every month. My combat load as a 60 gunner was 118lbs. Then you see something like this making the news and you just shake your head...

https://youtu.be/2F_3MKYiF_c

[Legbreaker]

Then you see something like this making the news and you just shake your head...

https://youtu.be/2F_3MKYiF_c

:eek:
Medics. Explains it all really. How often do they have to leave the aid post carrying much more than a first aid kit and water bottle?
Seems pretty obvious to me that "Captain" had a bit of a heart condition. Bet she recovered real quick once she dropped her pack and the cameras stopped rolling.

[swaghauler]

:eek:
Medics. Explains it all really. How often do they have to leave the aid post carrying much more than a first aid kit and water bottle?
Seems pretty obvious to me that "Captain" had a bit of a heart condition. Bet she recovered real quick once she dropped her pack and the cameras stopped rolling.
YEP. Look at the guy at time index 0.31 Seconds. He looks really "beat" by the course. Looks like he's on patrol. :D

[StainlessSteelCynic]

While the idea that soldiers should carry no more 32% of their total body weight is a great idea, it's like the saying "No plan survives contact with the enemy." It all works in theory but practical necessity says otherwise.

I think in the 1800s when armies marched for several days to reach a battlefield, it would have been realistically achievable (and completely necessary). They would only have needed to carry fighting order and the baggage trains would carry the rest.
But from the 20th century on, I doubt infantry soldiers in most modern armies would be carrying less than 40% of their body weight. Distances to the battlefield are shorter now because transport drops you as close as possible - there is no baggage train to carry all your extra gear, you carry it all in with you.

Take even a brief look at what the British Paras did in the Falklands and you'll see that infantry units are capable of such feats. Those guys were carrying closer to 80% of their own bodyweight
Even in more modern conflicts like Afghanistan, infantry (of whatever flavour) are carrying bulk ammo and water and plenty more medical supplies than usual, plus all the commo gear and body armour - those troops are not carrying 32% or less of their own bodyweight, it'd be more like 40-50%.

Reminds me of a saying that was common in the Australia Army during the 1970s-90s...
The infantry doesn't want racehorses, it wants packhorses.

[rcaf_777]

Of course there is. Real world example of why the figures are rubbish.
I'm sure any other infantryman could say basically the same thing.

I am was infantry and these figures are not. I carried huge loads of distances and guess what I was in no condition to fight when I reached the end of my route.

remember there are three loads that you see dismounted soldiers carry

Battle Load: Ammo (about 5-6 mags total 200 rounds) and food+water (one meal and two canteens) additional items could include belted ammo, grenades and maybe M-72, helmet and body armor are worn

Extended Load: Battle load with a small pack (with additional food, water, and ammo) and e-tool will also be carried I also carried a ranger blanket

Administrative Load: This is the soldier's rucksack and is not carried into battle due to its size and weight, additional food and water are carried along with sleeping gear and a spare uniform and sundries. Rucksacks are left in an assembly area with the units non-combat troops.

In game terms, PC that are dismounted will become fatigued if they carry too much as will pack animals that why we load limits

[Legbreaker]

It would seem your experience differs then.
Personally, fighting order was usually around 35 kgs (machinegunner) - I rarely carried less (perhaps 25kgs on rare occasions when acting as a rifleman). At the time I weighed 65kgs.
Marching order was a around 50-60kgs.
We almost always carried our own packs everywhere as there simply weren't the vehicles available.

[Targan]

It would seem your experience differs then.
Personally, fighting order was usually around 35 kgs (machinegunner) - I rarely carried less (perhaps 25kgs on rare occasions when acting as a rifleman). At the time I weighed 65kgs.
Marching order was a around 50-60kgs.
We almost always carried our own packs everywhere as there simply weren't the vehicles available.

Same. I was just a rifleman though, so slightly less weight for me than for you.

Among Australian infantrymen, probably the most common career-ending physical problem seems to be wear-and-tear on the knees, almost certainly it seems to be from carrying those heavy loads for years and years.

[Legbreaker]

Among Australian infantrymen, probably the most common career-ending physical problem seems to be wear-and-tear on the knees, almost certainly it seems to be from carrying those heavy loads for years and years.

Indeed. Knees were a major (but not only) factor in me getting out.

[CDAT]

I am was infantry and these figures are not. I carried huge loads of distances and guess what I was in no condition to fight when I reached the end of my route.

remember there are three loads that you see dismounted soldiers carry

Battle Load: Ammo (about 5-6 mags total 200 rounds) and food+water (one meal and two canteens) additional items could include belted ammo, grenades and maybe M-72, helmet and body armor are worn

Extended Load: Battle load with a small pack (with additional food, water, and ammo) and e-tool will also be carried I also carried a ranger blanket

Administrative Load: This is the soldier's rucksack and is not carried into battle due to its size and weight, additional food and water are carried along with sleeping gear and a spare uniform and sundries. Rucksacks are left in an assembly area with the units non-combat troops.

In game terms, PC that are dismounted will become fatigued if they carry too much as will pack animals that why we load limits

Now I have never been Infantry, but during my time in the military I was a Tanker, Combat Engineer, Combat Medic and EOD. When I was a trigger puller my battle load as you called it was 85lbs or more this only included primary weapon, ammo body armor, and a single canteen. At the time I was about 180lbs myself. We did not have what you called the Extended load, our next up load was full rucksack and between the two it was a majority of my body weight.

[rcaf_777]

My point earlier

[CDAT]

My point earlier

I guess maybe I am just dense, as I am not getting your point. I do not think anyone is saying that it should not in an ideal world be that. What I think we are saying is that in the real world it is not even close to that. But your point seams to be that everyone knows this is the standard and everyone follows it? Right now it sounds like you are the only one who's experiences have followed the "recommended" limits?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The 32% of body weight is certainly a good recommendation and it can easily be seen for the need of such a restriction in training. If you have a good logistics train then it's certainly viable in wartime as well.
In practical terms though, it's not workable for some military forces simply because they do not have the same sort of logistics capability as any number of better supplied militaries e.g. many of the NATO forces.

In Australia we have a small population and thus a small military that has to cover a landmass that's about the same size as Brazil. Nearly all of Western Europe fits into the landmass of Western Australia alone - if we overlay all of Australia over Europe, Australia stretches from the UK to Turkey.

We don't have the logistics support to allow us to travel freely over our continent and so we also cannot make best use of recommendations such as the 32% of body weight. In the Australian Army, it's long been the practice that if you can't carry it in with you, you're going to have to do without it - hence my comment earlier about the Army wanting pack horses, not race horses.

In Australia we also carry far more water than most NATO/WarPac militaries typically carry. We get issued four water bottles and standard practice is to carry two on the webbing and two on the pack (or webbing if operational requirements dictate it) plus we also carried a collapsible water carrier of about 2 litres capacity as well as a Millbank water filter bag.

This is normal procedure, you are expected to carry all four water bottles for typical tactical operations. If the climate is expected to be hotter or drier, then you carry more water. So on for example, an overnight patrol into the more arid regions of Australia each soldier might be carrying up to 6 litres of water as a minimum amount because we cannot expect to have vehicles/aircraft doing regular resupply.
I mention this because it's been shown in this thread that the load carrying experience between various nations have been quite different and obviously, the difference is dictated by the different requirements in the various nations. While I agree that the 32% recommendation is a good practice, it's not achievable in some countries due to their operating environment.

[swaghauler]

I guess maybe I am just dense, as I am not getting your point. I do not think anyone is saying that it should not in an ideal world be that. What I think we are saying is that in the real world it is not even close to that. But your point seams to be that everyone knows this is the standard and everyone follows it? Right now it sounds like you are the only one who's experiences have followed the "recommended" limits?

I think we carried the "recommended limit" just wearing our LBE and K-pots. The funny thing was, after a while, it just felt natural to carry a hundred pounds on a road march. It's amazing what you can "get used to."