kato13
09-10-2008, 02:46 AM
kcdusk 03-15-2007, 03:46 AM Is/has anyone used LCG's in their games?
Is anyone using 122mm+ tanks/howitzers/mortars?
What are characters using them for?
Against hard targets?
Destroying houses?
Are Refs really doing the work to determine the blast, contact and PEN calcs to see what the outcome is for each round, whether that lands in a field or hits a house?
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Targan 03-15-2007, 03:54 AM In my campaign large calibre guns are used rarely, but they are used. Tank guns have not been used in my campaign for years real time, months game time (the last time tank guns were used was when Major Po was in command of a Shershen class torpedo boat on the Wisla and it was attacked by Soviet forces).
Since getting back to the US Major Po has built up his forces considerably and currently has a small artillery battery in support of his unit, at their firebase in New Jersey. I believe they have had 105mm and 155mm firing in support on just a couple of occasions, and have used LCGs to lob parachute flares as well. Oh, and I think they shelled a CIA base after they raided it too.
And yes, I do all the work required to see where the rounds land and what the result is. I even work out the flight time of the rounds.
Autocannons, ATGMs and AGLs are used much more frequently in my campaign.
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DeaconR 03-15-2007, 05:08 AM I've had big ones used on two occasions.
1. While NORTHAG made its final push into Poland my players were part of a force that landed secretly to prepare the way for a flanking attack on the coast, and at one point called in tactical firing from HMS York on some Soviet positions.
2. When my players were moving around the Kalisz area they found they were unable to link up with units of the 5th US ID and were in part cut off by shelling in an area where a tank unit was believed to be. This was partly my effort to frighten my players into moving on.
My players have mostly used mortars--a Wojo while in Poland and a standard 81mm while in the USA. They like using them for ambushes, though a couple of times they used WP rounds to set on fire areas to flush people out.
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Targan 03-15-2007, 05:15 AM Agreed, mortars have been used far more than any other weapons in my campaign for indirect fire. Po has several mortar teams, and rotates them so that there is always at least one team permanently available day or night for emergency fire missions. He also has a mortar carrier vehicle available, but that is not permanently manned. The on-call teams just have 60mm mortars.
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DeaconR 08-02-2008, 08:05 PM Just reviving this thread. I felt there was more input out there.
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weswood 08-02-2008, 08:48 PM My character in Rae's online "Pirates" game just killed a T-55 with 6 kg of C-4 :quickdraw I guess you could say Rae was using it......
Of course, now he has hypothermia, and if he survives that, he'll probably get pnemonia.
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pmulcahy 08-02-2008, 09:16 PM When I was GMing and playing, autocannon use was sort of semi-common -- but large-caliber guns and howitzer use (most of the time when I was GMing) was rare. I kept the rounds for the most part as scarce as hen's teeth -- and that went for ATGMs as well. (I've GMed a campaign for a short time where the Twilight War wasn't quite as devastating and such things were more common, but only once. Sort of Monty Haul T2K.)
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kcdusk 08-03-2008, 03:42 AM Just reviving this thread. I felt there was more input out there.
Wow, digging back through the archives Deac!
Of course, now he has hypothermia, and if he survives that, he'll probably get pnemonia.
Agh, the typical joys of T2K ... !
(hypothermia and pnemonia sending GM scurrying for his disease tables, hehe)
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DeaconR 08-03-2008, 06:44 PM There is the howitzer used in "Ruins of Warsaw" as one pre-written example. Did anyone play that scenario out?
BTW good example of the T-55--obviously tanks are major defenses in Krakow and are attached to units in "Escape from Kalisz" and so on. Clearly the potential enemy would make use of them.
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kcdusk 08-03-2008, 09:00 PM My character in Rae's online "Pirates" game just killed a T-55 with 6 kg of C-4
Maybe try the old "banana in the tailpipe" trick next time :-)
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Hangfire7 08-03-2008, 11:34 PM I have used them, more as a plot device.
For lighter mortars like 60mm and 81s and 82s they are fairly common. I mean think about it. US forces have 3 guns per infantry company of 60mms, and what, a half dozen of 81s in the weapons company. Add to them replacements that would be issued out from preposition gear they would be pretty common. Heck, even 120s are not to uncommon.
As for their use:
I had the PCs who were hidding in a deserted town see a platoon of horse drawn 120s, so they themselves set up their own 81 and let loose with mostly WP and some HE as the column paused to tend their horses and prepare to cross a stream.
I had the same group when they moved on encounter a FO post in the middle of the night, but some of the FO party got away. They made it to a larger river and noticed an enemy camp on the otherside. One of their number crossed and found a LARGE 203mm gun. The PCs were going to return to their camp with the rest of the party and then go about dealing with the LARGE gun. But, they soon had rounds from their target landing on them. As they fled on foot shrapnel hit one in the hand taking away his little find and thumb on his right hand.
Needless to say, the PCs never attacked the enemy gun and encampment.
I have written but yet to play a campaign where such a gun was the target of the PCs. Their mission to locate and destroy the weapon that is wreaking havoc on the surrounding countryside.
Then the PCs same group moved into an abandoned mining area. A criminal sort who had set himself up as a fuedal warlord sent some of his men infiltrating a depressed wooded area. The PCs found out and let loose with WP, their were no survivors.
Then I had another game with some of the same players, maybe a few of the surviving characters, I forget. They were in or around the Ukraine. The PCs had a 120mm mortar carrier. loaded with chemical rounds. Smoke, Illum, WP, and mustard gas. They had very very few HE.
Then, they were going to encounter a former PACT Colonel who had set himself up in the city, had turned it around. He had a few large guns and he was working on chemical weapons.
Again, for the most part I made the large guns the issue. The PCs had chem weapons, and then the moral dilema of should the use them?
A power hungery ruler who did make signifigant inroads at recovery, bent on using his large guns to eliminate all who do not joing him.
And a large gun for the PCs to target as their adventure.
Some ideas I have for future campaigns:
A naval gun turned into a RAIL GUN.
A barge with used as a weapons platform. Take a river or coastal barge <iron> and fit it with a dozen mortar tubes, or 75mm or 105mm howitzers, or even rocket launchers, have it hauled to within range and let loose. The PCs need to track, board and eliminate the threat. This would be a good plot for a port town, either putting it under siege, or as a siege breaker.
The above, a LARGE naval gun, a single gun mounted on a hulk or so it looke like a hulk, it fires a large single devestating shell and the gun is lowered beneath the sides of the hull, so the vessel once again looks like a old rust streaked vessel. The PCs have to find the vehicle, find out the secret of the bulk coastal steamer, get aboard and then eliminate it.
Another thing I have been toying about, QUAD .50s, talk about heavy duty artillery, and it is anti air artillery.
We can also use some of the battleships that are anchored turned into bases for local warlord or military commanders who managed to bring their weapons on line. Or even working for the local community they are in. They have located the shells for the guns, and its the PCs mission to secure them or even retrieve them. It is essential that they get them because a large enemy force is making demands and threats of the city.
Or anyone fance a Guns of Navarone scenario? A high cliff on an island at the mouth of a river or an island controling a harbor or river and the PCs need to eliminate them to open up the area as a transportation route once more.
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weswood 08-04-2008, 06:10 AM Maybe try the old "banana in the tailpipe" trick next time :-)
They ain't falling for no banana in the tailpipe!
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DeaconR 08-04-2008, 08:45 AM I like your adventure ideas Hangfire. Why not a combination of them, say for the Sealord of Jacksonville or something like that? Also very good descriptions of LCG and heavy mortar use in your games. I really like the description of them fleeing the 203mm.
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Hangfire7 08-04-2008, 12:03 PM I like your adventure ideas Hangfire. Why not a combination of them, say for the Sealord of Jacksonville or something like that? Also very good descriptions of LCG and heavy mortar use in your games. I really like the description of them fleeing the 203mm.
Well as I said, it was going to be the centerpiece for that portion of the campaign. The PCs had a couple vehicles, although criticaly low on fuel, they always seemed to be. The intent was they would hear the gun fire. Maybe even see the rounds fly overhead. Then they would pick up a radio signal of some besieged BN of the 5th, or somewhere where stragglers had managed to link up and now they were being pummeled by the 203mm. I was going to let the PCs put it all together. Then they would have had to have return, unfiltrate the enemy base, take out the gun or its ammo to take the presure off the folks pleading for help on the radio. Who knows later on the in campaign they would have met some of the survivors who would treat them just short of divine.
Oh yeah I also forgot one other incident with mortars, I think it was mortars the game got hot and heavy, and I was drinking my beer from a litter mug <on my third or fourth mug of that session> and the Soviets had forced them to run, they had been caught in the open when they thought they were safe, or a vehicle broke down, or they were tending to wounded and redistributing crewmen, I forget exactly. But they were caught in the open when they suffered a barrage of enemy fire. The bad thing was, the rear ramp to their Bradely was down and it was full of fuel and it was a almost direct hit on the rear of the vehicle. Just as one member was running out the back. He disapeared in a ball of explosion and flame, the flames were sucked into the Bradely and when the concusion ebbed. The man in the turret was blown out, poor Lil Tony, I used the character "Cotton Hill" as my inspiriation for him, a former mech man who lost both legs at the knee a year or two prior after it was impossible for him to be evaced. He had artificial legs, but he customized his vehicle to operate without them, including running all systems from his place in the turret and handle bars and a slide so he could transition from turret to driver to crew compartment via swinging from handle bars he had mounted inside the vehicle.
But, the PCs got caught in the open durring an enemy mortar barrage as they were making a get away, that I beleive was one of the most damaging of all engagements they had been in durring the entire campaign. They had lost two or three vehicles and several key members of their team, mostly NPCs but alas, they were the well develope NPCs that everyone had grown to love. It hit the group hard. But, the group did get out of dodge before the second volley of rounds came inbound.
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DeaconR 08-04-2008, 01:24 PM I think your game sounds like it was very cool, and like the ideal TW2000 campaign. It should be tough; it should be dangerous. NICE description of the Bradley explosion btw!
What vehicles were your group driving when they were hit by the mortars?
Has anyone made much use of tanks or anti aircraft guns in their games btw? I made use of tanks during "Escape from Kalisz" and "Bear's Den" of course, and my pcs briefly used a captured T-72 during "Black Madonna". (basically they faked being a Soviet unit while taking out a Silesian outpost, to draw attention away from their own activities.)
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Targan 08-04-2008, 11:59 PM But, the PCs got caught in the open durring an enemy mortar barrage as they were making a get away, that I beleive was one of the most damaging of all engagements they had been in durring the entire campaign. They had lost two or three vehicles and several key members of their team, mostly NPCs but alas, they were the well develope NPCs that everyone had grown to love. It hit the group hard. But, the group did get out of dodge before the second volley of rounds came inbound.Mortars have caused some havoc in my campaign. As the party was withdrawing from Poland towards Germany in an up-armoured truck towing a trailer full of fuel and ammo they decided to run a fortified road block at a WarPac-held town. They broke through the first gate and discovered there was a second roadblock up ahead. The truck got shot up as the party exchanged fire with a couple of light APCs, they destroyed one APC and killed the crew of the other but the truck ended up on fire and when one of the tires blew the truck rolled onto its side. Some of the party dismounted and captured the APC with the dead crew then two PCs tried to unhook the trailer from the truck. By then mortar rounds were incoming and it all ended in tears when the trailer full of fuel and ammo was hit by a mortar round. Major Po, two other PCs and two NPCs were the only survivors out of a party of 12 or so.
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thefusilier 08-05-2008, 12:36 AM Has anyone made much use of tanks or anti aircraft guns in their games btw?
Not really large caliber, but my online play by post game got hit by a truck mounted ZU-23-2. And currently they are debating on whether they should try to lug the B-11 107mm recoilless rifle they captured. Its got a pretty big bang for its size.
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Hangfire7 08-05-2008, 12:40 AM Deacon:
Let me just give the run down of the campaign, although it was a real time game played via IM screen on AOL and Yahoo about 2003. So my memory is a touch fuzzy...and as I said I would drink from my BIG glass durring some sessions, but Corkman and Joe the two main players and myself got into it like a real F to F game where we even stretched it out an hour and another hour and another going to 3 in the AM my time, we are talking a 8 hour session once, twice or even three times a week. I personaly loved it.
The game started with the PCs and NPCs sitting in out of the outposts of the 5th. Not a small outpost mind you but a Bn area. Sitting, waiting, being hungry and cold. Getting sporadic resupply of ammo and being told, "use em the best ya can, cause ya ain't getting no more."
Well the vehicles were at the motorpool, and the PCs who was a crewman was reloading their vehicle, fuel, ammo etc. Then all hell broke loose.
Ivan let loose with heavy artillery, oh yeah forgot I used it again as a device, this time it wasn't just heavy guns, but ROCKS!!! And then of course they came up the hill in waves. The line broke. 2 PCs were stragglers who were placed on the line manning rifle positions and even then it was a thin line.
The PCs on the line barely made it out without being killed. The PCs in the motorpool were being blasted to pieces and grabbed whatever was in their hands jumped in and made a mad dash, the foot mobile PCs jumped on at the last minute.
IF I recall correctly, the group had 1 hardtopped Hummer with I beleive a .50, they had a command version soft top Hummer that belonged to the PAY MASTER <another plot device for the adventure, let the enemy or criminal element find out you had a paymaster with not just script and cash, but gold and silver, he wasn't just there to pay the troops, that was low priority but to also have funds to pay for what the unit needs from the local economies> The PCs thought they had hit a gold mine when the Warrant Officer Pay master died of a heart attack durring an interaction with one PC. His gear was complete and all new as was his vehicle. <then of course your gear remains new if you never use it>
The PCs made a mad dash out of the position that was being over run. An ambulance they had helped hustle some wounded into as the camp was being over run, sadly, as they passed down the trail they crashed through the wreckage of the ambulance. Vehicles on the road that survived a pair of BMPs comming out of the woods turned out to be the Bradley with "Lil Tony" the PCs in their armored Humvee and a softtop Humvee.
BUT!!!!!!
They drove through the night and encountered a farm house. <There is always a farm house.> They find it is occupied by one of the earlier ambulances. Althoug hit had taken shrapnel from a BMPs 30mm and its engine had siezed. It wasn't going anywhere. A Humvee with Mk 19 was there too low on fuel and havin sustained battle damage as well.
The PCs hunker down for some of the night. Resting, helping the Master Sgt a cracker jack medic and medical technician who was conducting emergency surgery. The groups medic lends a hand along with the nurse who was with the original occupants. Sadly, the team knows most of the wounded couldn't be moved. And Ivan was just down the road. The MstSgt gives the order for all his personel who were able to leave, and the nurse. He and one of his orderlies as well as those who were to injured to move stayed behind with minimal weapons and ammo. They had hopped some mercy would be granted. Just after dawn the question of mercy was answered. The Soviet Cavalry who arrived was not in a merciful mood. A series of short bursts from the limited ammo and weapons was followed by a flurry of Pact weapons fire and then a few moments later shorter bursts of fire.
I think the PCs did manage to get either a Duece and a Half or a Humvee at that point. they moved on.
Their next stop was at a Pact Roadblock. There they eliminated the sentrys and dressed in their uniforms manned the checkpoint with one or two of their personel who spoke russian on duty at all times in the senior uniforms.
They pulled off the con for a day or two when they stopped a vehicle with an officer. They gave him a hard time and he left. Little did they know it was the officer in charge of the men assigned to the checkpoint. He returned with more men and a fight ensued.
It was after that fight the PCs realised they could not stay there any longer. They had reduced the enemies numbers enough to get out, but it was only a matter of time before more reinforcements arrived.
They got caught in the open as they tried to leapfrog. They did not realise the Russians had mortars but they did. Oh yeah, they also stayed to open up on a truckload of POWs who had come through their check point. The POWs begain to fight their attackers when the shooting broke out. <I added a new PC and NPC at that point>
The group had a Land Rover I beleive with MG-3 mounted, 2 Armored Humvees with a MK19 and a .50, a Soft Top Humvee no weapon mounted, a UAZ I think they had captured at the checkpoint, or was it a motorcycle with sidecar. Their Bradely and I am not sure if they picked up the Duece then or later.
When it was over they had lost the Land Rover, the Bradely and the caputered Pact Vehicle. They were down to 3 Humvees, 2 armored with weapons mount and 1 unarmored without.
Now, you asked about anti aircraft, the same campaign they encountered some local guerillas who had a ZSU quad 23mm anti air gun <towed> but it had flat tires, no ammo and its frame was bent. The PCs pulled an "A Team" and repaired it, aquired some ammo and mounted it on the bed of a captured enemy truck. From that point forward it was their tail vehicle, so their convoy had a "stinger." for anyone comming behind them, or if they encountered an ambush they had a 270 arc of fire and once when ambushed racked the side of the road. Although that did kill the partisans vehicle <a towed Rapira was dug in at a bend in the road>
Then also, as the PCs were making a run across a bridge that seperated them from freindly lines they had to make a hell run through a fortified town. <key point seperating both sides, thus both sides were highly fortified and had regular encounters> So, the PCs made the mad dash. They lost their lead vehicle an LAV with minugun mounted. <they made it to a free city where a local blackmarketeer had run afoul of the local war Lord "Da Bozz" when one of the PCs let slip they had plenty of gold it was no longer healthy for them, too late, "Da Bozz" had his boys hot on the PCs trail. So, the blackmarketeer who was dealing in antibiotics some good, some counterfit hitched a ride. In exchange for the ride out he supplied the PCs with the LAV and mini gun and some additional supplies and ammo. The blackmarketeer forgot that it doesn't help having all kinds of goodies when you don't know how to operate them.
So the PCs make the run. The LAV is hit and imobilized. Its crew is killed except the gunner who continues laying down fire dueling it out against some evil heavy weapon the Russians had in a dug in position. Kim goes down firiing even as the flames envolope him.
The truck with the quad ZSU rakes the stone building that was used as a barracks, but the vehicle is stopped when it is turned to swiss cheese from automatic weapons fire, its tires were flattened, the engine shot through. The gunner turned the ZSU on the stone building keeping the enemy down, then raked the woods next to the river hopefully clearing it.
And then it was a scramble for the survivors to grab their wounded if they could, and cross the bridge all while under fire.
And that was how my group made it back to freindly lines.
There was another aspect or two that I had omitted that were pretty cool too.
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Hangfire7 08-05-2008, 01:04 AM Deacon:
As for anti air artillery, I am actualy working up a campaign where it will play a role. It a Twilight 1950 campaign. Using one of the theories that the Soviet Union and Its Allies would attack Western Europe while they were having to deal with Korea. So quad .50s are part of the unit watching the Sovs from across a small river. Of course the quads purpose is to provide anti air for the engineers, radio intercept and supporting infantry at the bridge and in the town. But it is in the front of mind that in Korea half track mounted quad .50s were used on occassion to break some of the massed human wave attacks employed by the N. Koreans and Chi Coms.
As for Tanks, again the last campaign I related to you.
"Da Bozz" had a platoon of T-55s. He sent them against the PCs who were holed up at an abanonded mine. The PCs split up, brought a bull dozier online and used it to go down the single lane primative unmaintained road. The drive was severely wounded but he did clear the way for the party to escape. Coupled with a heroic act on the part of two of its members.
Two of them snuck into "Da Bozzs" camp while one of their number layed down cover fire. They tossed a thermite in the engine of one of "Da Bozzs" tanks and then drew attention to themselves. they then climbed into one of the tanks and tried to clear the road of enemy leading the way and providing cover and fire power for their members stuck on the road trying to escape from the mine. The mine was in hills and had just the one road for access.
They came up the rear of two BTRs who the vehicles or its dismounts had had killed three members of the party. Two of them were shot in the back as they lay on the ground wounded.
But, a tank battle ensued. Shortlived mind you. Our PCs won the tank battle but the tank the PCs were in had suffered damage and was afire, that coupled with the road being in poor condition well, the road gave way beneath its weight and it rolled down the side of the hill. The PCs thought the last man was dead. They were wrong. The last they heard was his screams as he came too trapped in the flaming wreckage and he screamed over the radio for help that never came.
Oh, yeah, they also had an encounter with a spy of "Da Bozz." He was found out just before they made their break out, shortly after they dropped the mortar rounds on the group who tried to infiltrate on the low area <mentioned above.> He was loosely hung. A noose around the neck, tossed around an engine hoist and pulled until he was on his tip toes. then, one of the PCs shot him in the ankles.
typing this makes me miss a good game with all of the plot twists I used.
Like the farm house full of wounded was a pretty dramatic scene, forcing the women there to leave. leaving men behind who they knew would most likely be killed and knowing there would be nothing you could do.
Or when they manned the check point, and trucks filled with POWs captured from the 5th rolled through, one spit at one of the PCs and was severely beaten by the guard.
And of course my paymaster and the blackmarketeer added as well.
Alot of whammys which make for a good game.
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Raellus 08-08-2008, 06:01 PM In my "Pirates..." campaign, the party has made good use of their 82mm Vasilek ("Cornflower") automortar.
They have successfully used it in both the indirect and direct fire modes. The latter, in particular, has proved especially deadly to their enemies. With the generous v2.2 direct fire deviation rules, the PC gunner's high skill, and some lucky rolls, its managed t rack up the highest number of kills of any of the Wisla Krolowa's other crew-served weapons (including three DShK HMGs, one AGS-17 AGL, one Mk-19 AGL, and numerous LMGs).
WP is a particularly effective round, providing both instant smoke and nasty incindiary/fragmentation effects. The Vasilek/WP combo has saved the tug on several occasions.
It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking up one.
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DeaconR 08-08-2008, 08:37 PM It really does sound like one hell of a campaign, Hangfire, I wish I could have been in it. I've noticed that everyone mentions mortars--well they're the most common heavy weapon of course especially in TW2000. One of the things I think is particularly cool about your game is that you actually started out with people that would have been at a bn area--like a paymaster! I did a similar thing once where for example the aviation officer had been made a staff officer since she didn't have anything to fly, there was also a FO, the driver of a HQ vehicle, an RTO and a vehicle mechanic who happened to be working on said HQ vehicle. When 122mm rounds started dropping in their area they picked up and fled; the CO and the other staff never showed up. (I introduced the character of the CO and his XO implying they'd be stuck with higher ranking NPCs only to have them killed off in the first session. I even gave him little oddities like making him seem like a CO from a WWII movie, complete with a disc player that constantly played a loop of 1940s music. He referred to everyone in the party as 'son'. They thought they'd be stuck with him.)
Targan: I kind of missed it before, but Po has several mortar teams? How many npcs and pcs do you have now? What's the TO&E of "Team Blanket"?
fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
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copeab 08-08-2008, 09:57 PM fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
Then they should have done this (yes, it's a real vehicle, used by the French in the 1950's):
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thefusilier 08-08-2008, 11:46 PM Then they should have done this (yes, it's a real vehicle, used by the French in the 1950's):
LOL, please say it isn't so.
fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
They could have taken it, but it had no wheels (B-11). They contemplated strapping it to the top of one of their carriers, but in the end it was too much work and would take too long (enemy coming). They took the ammo for the reasons you mentioned.
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copeab 08-09-2008, 12:42 AM LOL, please say it isn't so.
http://www.longstoryshortpier.com/2007/01/08/mle-56
Brandon
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simonmark6 08-09-2008, 06:23 AM I've seen one of these in real life, they have one at the French Tank Museum at Saumur, and incredible place if you can get to it. It's right next to a British Air Mobile jeep that folds up to the size of a big suitcase. People did some crazy things in those days. Then again look at the Onotos, a direct fire LAV where you have to get out every time you want to reload!
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Gen.Lee 08-13-2008, 07:09 PM I was very generous in my first time GMing T2k, and let them find a fixable M1, but no main-gun ammo, I think. They picked up an 82mm Vasilek later, and had a lot more fun with that.
When their convoy once got mortared (120mm?), they got really tense and quiet when one of those bombs came within 2mm of penetrating the deck armor of the Abrams. They escaped, and it started raining. I had just picked up the "Going Home" module, so one player pointed at that and said, "Let's go home." I broke a party's morale!!!!
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Is anyone using 122mm+ tanks/howitzers/mortars?
What are characters using them for?
Against hard targets?
Destroying houses?
Are Refs really doing the work to determine the blast, contact and PEN calcs to see what the outcome is for each round, whether that lands in a field or hits a house?
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Targan 03-15-2007, 03:54 AM In my campaign large calibre guns are used rarely, but they are used. Tank guns have not been used in my campaign for years real time, months game time (the last time tank guns were used was when Major Po was in command of a Shershen class torpedo boat on the Wisla and it was attacked by Soviet forces).
Since getting back to the US Major Po has built up his forces considerably and currently has a small artillery battery in support of his unit, at their firebase in New Jersey. I believe they have had 105mm and 155mm firing in support on just a couple of occasions, and have used LCGs to lob parachute flares as well. Oh, and I think they shelled a CIA base after they raided it too.
And yes, I do all the work required to see where the rounds land and what the result is. I even work out the flight time of the rounds.
Autocannons, ATGMs and AGLs are used much more frequently in my campaign.
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DeaconR 03-15-2007, 05:08 AM I've had big ones used on two occasions.
1. While NORTHAG made its final push into Poland my players were part of a force that landed secretly to prepare the way for a flanking attack on the coast, and at one point called in tactical firing from HMS York on some Soviet positions.
2. When my players were moving around the Kalisz area they found they were unable to link up with units of the 5th US ID and were in part cut off by shelling in an area where a tank unit was believed to be. This was partly my effort to frighten my players into moving on.
My players have mostly used mortars--a Wojo while in Poland and a standard 81mm while in the USA. They like using them for ambushes, though a couple of times they used WP rounds to set on fire areas to flush people out.
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Targan 03-15-2007, 05:15 AM Agreed, mortars have been used far more than any other weapons in my campaign for indirect fire. Po has several mortar teams, and rotates them so that there is always at least one team permanently available day or night for emergency fire missions. He also has a mortar carrier vehicle available, but that is not permanently manned. The on-call teams just have 60mm mortars.
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DeaconR 08-02-2008, 08:05 PM Just reviving this thread. I felt there was more input out there.
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weswood 08-02-2008, 08:48 PM My character in Rae's online "Pirates" game just killed a T-55 with 6 kg of C-4 :quickdraw I guess you could say Rae was using it......
Of course, now he has hypothermia, and if he survives that, he'll probably get pnemonia.
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pmulcahy 08-02-2008, 09:16 PM When I was GMing and playing, autocannon use was sort of semi-common -- but large-caliber guns and howitzer use (most of the time when I was GMing) was rare. I kept the rounds for the most part as scarce as hen's teeth -- and that went for ATGMs as well. (I've GMed a campaign for a short time where the Twilight War wasn't quite as devastating and such things were more common, but only once. Sort of Monty Haul T2K.)
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kcdusk 08-03-2008, 03:42 AM Just reviving this thread. I felt there was more input out there.
Wow, digging back through the archives Deac!
Of course, now he has hypothermia, and if he survives that, he'll probably get pnemonia.
Agh, the typical joys of T2K ... !
(hypothermia and pnemonia sending GM scurrying for his disease tables, hehe)
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DeaconR 08-03-2008, 06:44 PM There is the howitzer used in "Ruins of Warsaw" as one pre-written example. Did anyone play that scenario out?
BTW good example of the T-55--obviously tanks are major defenses in Krakow and are attached to units in "Escape from Kalisz" and so on. Clearly the potential enemy would make use of them.
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kcdusk 08-03-2008, 09:00 PM My character in Rae's online "Pirates" game just killed a T-55 with 6 kg of C-4
Maybe try the old "banana in the tailpipe" trick next time :-)
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Hangfire7 08-03-2008, 11:34 PM I have used them, more as a plot device.
For lighter mortars like 60mm and 81s and 82s they are fairly common. I mean think about it. US forces have 3 guns per infantry company of 60mms, and what, a half dozen of 81s in the weapons company. Add to them replacements that would be issued out from preposition gear they would be pretty common. Heck, even 120s are not to uncommon.
As for their use:
I had the PCs who were hidding in a deserted town see a platoon of horse drawn 120s, so they themselves set up their own 81 and let loose with mostly WP and some HE as the column paused to tend their horses and prepare to cross a stream.
I had the same group when they moved on encounter a FO post in the middle of the night, but some of the FO party got away. They made it to a larger river and noticed an enemy camp on the otherside. One of their number crossed and found a LARGE 203mm gun. The PCs were going to return to their camp with the rest of the party and then go about dealing with the LARGE gun. But, they soon had rounds from their target landing on them. As they fled on foot shrapnel hit one in the hand taking away his little find and thumb on his right hand.
Needless to say, the PCs never attacked the enemy gun and encampment.
I have written but yet to play a campaign where such a gun was the target of the PCs. Their mission to locate and destroy the weapon that is wreaking havoc on the surrounding countryside.
Then the PCs same group moved into an abandoned mining area. A criminal sort who had set himself up as a fuedal warlord sent some of his men infiltrating a depressed wooded area. The PCs found out and let loose with WP, their were no survivors.
Then I had another game with some of the same players, maybe a few of the surviving characters, I forget. They were in or around the Ukraine. The PCs had a 120mm mortar carrier. loaded with chemical rounds. Smoke, Illum, WP, and mustard gas. They had very very few HE.
Then, they were going to encounter a former PACT Colonel who had set himself up in the city, had turned it around. He had a few large guns and he was working on chemical weapons.
Again, for the most part I made the large guns the issue. The PCs had chem weapons, and then the moral dilema of should the use them?
A power hungery ruler who did make signifigant inroads at recovery, bent on using his large guns to eliminate all who do not joing him.
And a large gun for the PCs to target as their adventure.
Some ideas I have for future campaigns:
A naval gun turned into a RAIL GUN.
A barge with used as a weapons platform. Take a river or coastal barge <iron> and fit it with a dozen mortar tubes, or 75mm or 105mm howitzers, or even rocket launchers, have it hauled to within range and let loose. The PCs need to track, board and eliminate the threat. This would be a good plot for a port town, either putting it under siege, or as a siege breaker.
The above, a LARGE naval gun, a single gun mounted on a hulk or so it looke like a hulk, it fires a large single devestating shell and the gun is lowered beneath the sides of the hull, so the vessel once again looks like a old rust streaked vessel. The PCs have to find the vehicle, find out the secret of the bulk coastal steamer, get aboard and then eliminate it.
Another thing I have been toying about, QUAD .50s, talk about heavy duty artillery, and it is anti air artillery.
We can also use some of the battleships that are anchored turned into bases for local warlord or military commanders who managed to bring their weapons on line. Or even working for the local community they are in. They have located the shells for the guns, and its the PCs mission to secure them or even retrieve them. It is essential that they get them because a large enemy force is making demands and threats of the city.
Or anyone fance a Guns of Navarone scenario? A high cliff on an island at the mouth of a river or an island controling a harbor or river and the PCs need to eliminate them to open up the area as a transportation route once more.
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weswood 08-04-2008, 06:10 AM Maybe try the old "banana in the tailpipe" trick next time :-)
They ain't falling for no banana in the tailpipe!
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DeaconR 08-04-2008, 08:45 AM I like your adventure ideas Hangfire. Why not a combination of them, say for the Sealord of Jacksonville or something like that? Also very good descriptions of LCG and heavy mortar use in your games. I really like the description of them fleeing the 203mm.
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Hangfire7 08-04-2008, 12:03 PM I like your adventure ideas Hangfire. Why not a combination of them, say for the Sealord of Jacksonville or something like that? Also very good descriptions of LCG and heavy mortar use in your games. I really like the description of them fleeing the 203mm.
Well as I said, it was going to be the centerpiece for that portion of the campaign. The PCs had a couple vehicles, although criticaly low on fuel, they always seemed to be. The intent was they would hear the gun fire. Maybe even see the rounds fly overhead. Then they would pick up a radio signal of some besieged BN of the 5th, or somewhere where stragglers had managed to link up and now they were being pummeled by the 203mm. I was going to let the PCs put it all together. Then they would have had to have return, unfiltrate the enemy base, take out the gun or its ammo to take the presure off the folks pleading for help on the radio. Who knows later on the in campaign they would have met some of the survivors who would treat them just short of divine.
Oh yeah I also forgot one other incident with mortars, I think it was mortars the game got hot and heavy, and I was drinking my beer from a litter mug <on my third or fourth mug of that session> and the Soviets had forced them to run, they had been caught in the open when they thought they were safe, or a vehicle broke down, or they were tending to wounded and redistributing crewmen, I forget exactly. But they were caught in the open when they suffered a barrage of enemy fire. The bad thing was, the rear ramp to their Bradely was down and it was full of fuel and it was a almost direct hit on the rear of the vehicle. Just as one member was running out the back. He disapeared in a ball of explosion and flame, the flames were sucked into the Bradely and when the concusion ebbed. The man in the turret was blown out, poor Lil Tony, I used the character "Cotton Hill" as my inspiriation for him, a former mech man who lost both legs at the knee a year or two prior after it was impossible for him to be evaced. He had artificial legs, but he customized his vehicle to operate without them, including running all systems from his place in the turret and handle bars and a slide so he could transition from turret to driver to crew compartment via swinging from handle bars he had mounted inside the vehicle.
But, the PCs got caught in the open durring an enemy mortar barrage as they were making a get away, that I beleive was one of the most damaging of all engagements they had been in durring the entire campaign. They had lost two or three vehicles and several key members of their team, mostly NPCs but alas, they were the well develope NPCs that everyone had grown to love. It hit the group hard. But, the group did get out of dodge before the second volley of rounds came inbound.
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DeaconR 08-04-2008, 01:24 PM I think your game sounds like it was very cool, and like the ideal TW2000 campaign. It should be tough; it should be dangerous. NICE description of the Bradley explosion btw!
What vehicles were your group driving when they were hit by the mortars?
Has anyone made much use of tanks or anti aircraft guns in their games btw? I made use of tanks during "Escape from Kalisz" and "Bear's Den" of course, and my pcs briefly used a captured T-72 during "Black Madonna". (basically they faked being a Soviet unit while taking out a Silesian outpost, to draw attention away from their own activities.)
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Targan 08-04-2008, 11:59 PM But, the PCs got caught in the open durring an enemy mortar barrage as they were making a get away, that I beleive was one of the most damaging of all engagements they had been in durring the entire campaign. They had lost two or three vehicles and several key members of their team, mostly NPCs but alas, they were the well develope NPCs that everyone had grown to love. It hit the group hard. But, the group did get out of dodge before the second volley of rounds came inbound.Mortars have caused some havoc in my campaign. As the party was withdrawing from Poland towards Germany in an up-armoured truck towing a trailer full of fuel and ammo they decided to run a fortified road block at a WarPac-held town. They broke through the first gate and discovered there was a second roadblock up ahead. The truck got shot up as the party exchanged fire with a couple of light APCs, they destroyed one APC and killed the crew of the other but the truck ended up on fire and when one of the tires blew the truck rolled onto its side. Some of the party dismounted and captured the APC with the dead crew then two PCs tried to unhook the trailer from the truck. By then mortar rounds were incoming and it all ended in tears when the trailer full of fuel and ammo was hit by a mortar round. Major Po, two other PCs and two NPCs were the only survivors out of a party of 12 or so.
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thefusilier 08-05-2008, 12:36 AM Has anyone made much use of tanks or anti aircraft guns in their games btw?
Not really large caliber, but my online play by post game got hit by a truck mounted ZU-23-2. And currently they are debating on whether they should try to lug the B-11 107mm recoilless rifle they captured. Its got a pretty big bang for its size.
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Hangfire7 08-05-2008, 12:40 AM Deacon:
Let me just give the run down of the campaign, although it was a real time game played via IM screen on AOL and Yahoo about 2003. So my memory is a touch fuzzy...and as I said I would drink from my BIG glass durring some sessions, but Corkman and Joe the two main players and myself got into it like a real F to F game where we even stretched it out an hour and another hour and another going to 3 in the AM my time, we are talking a 8 hour session once, twice or even three times a week. I personaly loved it.
The game started with the PCs and NPCs sitting in out of the outposts of the 5th. Not a small outpost mind you but a Bn area. Sitting, waiting, being hungry and cold. Getting sporadic resupply of ammo and being told, "use em the best ya can, cause ya ain't getting no more."
Well the vehicles were at the motorpool, and the PCs who was a crewman was reloading their vehicle, fuel, ammo etc. Then all hell broke loose.
Ivan let loose with heavy artillery, oh yeah forgot I used it again as a device, this time it wasn't just heavy guns, but ROCKS!!! And then of course they came up the hill in waves. The line broke. 2 PCs were stragglers who were placed on the line manning rifle positions and even then it was a thin line.
The PCs on the line barely made it out without being killed. The PCs in the motorpool were being blasted to pieces and grabbed whatever was in their hands jumped in and made a mad dash, the foot mobile PCs jumped on at the last minute.
IF I recall correctly, the group had 1 hardtopped Hummer with I beleive a .50, they had a command version soft top Hummer that belonged to the PAY MASTER <another plot device for the adventure, let the enemy or criminal element find out you had a paymaster with not just script and cash, but gold and silver, he wasn't just there to pay the troops, that was low priority but to also have funds to pay for what the unit needs from the local economies> The PCs thought they had hit a gold mine when the Warrant Officer Pay master died of a heart attack durring an interaction with one PC. His gear was complete and all new as was his vehicle. <then of course your gear remains new if you never use it>
The PCs made a mad dash out of the position that was being over run. An ambulance they had helped hustle some wounded into as the camp was being over run, sadly, as they passed down the trail they crashed through the wreckage of the ambulance. Vehicles on the road that survived a pair of BMPs comming out of the woods turned out to be the Bradley with "Lil Tony" the PCs in their armored Humvee and a softtop Humvee.
BUT!!!!!!
They drove through the night and encountered a farm house. <There is always a farm house.> They find it is occupied by one of the earlier ambulances. Althoug hit had taken shrapnel from a BMPs 30mm and its engine had siezed. It wasn't going anywhere. A Humvee with Mk 19 was there too low on fuel and havin sustained battle damage as well.
The PCs hunker down for some of the night. Resting, helping the Master Sgt a cracker jack medic and medical technician who was conducting emergency surgery. The groups medic lends a hand along with the nurse who was with the original occupants. Sadly, the team knows most of the wounded couldn't be moved. And Ivan was just down the road. The MstSgt gives the order for all his personel who were able to leave, and the nurse. He and one of his orderlies as well as those who were to injured to move stayed behind with minimal weapons and ammo. They had hopped some mercy would be granted. Just after dawn the question of mercy was answered. The Soviet Cavalry who arrived was not in a merciful mood. A series of short bursts from the limited ammo and weapons was followed by a flurry of Pact weapons fire and then a few moments later shorter bursts of fire.
I think the PCs did manage to get either a Duece and a Half or a Humvee at that point. they moved on.
Their next stop was at a Pact Roadblock. There they eliminated the sentrys and dressed in their uniforms manned the checkpoint with one or two of their personel who spoke russian on duty at all times in the senior uniforms.
They pulled off the con for a day or two when they stopped a vehicle with an officer. They gave him a hard time and he left. Little did they know it was the officer in charge of the men assigned to the checkpoint. He returned with more men and a fight ensued.
It was after that fight the PCs realised they could not stay there any longer. They had reduced the enemies numbers enough to get out, but it was only a matter of time before more reinforcements arrived.
They got caught in the open as they tried to leapfrog. They did not realise the Russians had mortars but they did. Oh yeah, they also stayed to open up on a truckload of POWs who had come through their check point. The POWs begain to fight their attackers when the shooting broke out. <I added a new PC and NPC at that point>
The group had a Land Rover I beleive with MG-3 mounted, 2 Armored Humvees with a MK19 and a .50, a Soft Top Humvee no weapon mounted, a UAZ I think they had captured at the checkpoint, or was it a motorcycle with sidecar. Their Bradely and I am not sure if they picked up the Duece then or later.
When it was over they had lost the Land Rover, the Bradely and the caputered Pact Vehicle. They were down to 3 Humvees, 2 armored with weapons mount and 1 unarmored without.
Now, you asked about anti aircraft, the same campaign they encountered some local guerillas who had a ZSU quad 23mm anti air gun <towed> but it had flat tires, no ammo and its frame was bent. The PCs pulled an "A Team" and repaired it, aquired some ammo and mounted it on the bed of a captured enemy truck. From that point forward it was their tail vehicle, so their convoy had a "stinger." for anyone comming behind them, or if they encountered an ambush they had a 270 arc of fire and once when ambushed racked the side of the road. Although that did kill the partisans vehicle <a towed Rapira was dug in at a bend in the road>
Then also, as the PCs were making a run across a bridge that seperated them from freindly lines they had to make a hell run through a fortified town. <key point seperating both sides, thus both sides were highly fortified and had regular encounters> So, the PCs made the mad dash. They lost their lead vehicle an LAV with minugun mounted. <they made it to a free city where a local blackmarketeer had run afoul of the local war Lord "Da Bozz" when one of the PCs let slip they had plenty of gold it was no longer healthy for them, too late, "Da Bozz" had his boys hot on the PCs trail. So, the blackmarketeer who was dealing in antibiotics some good, some counterfit hitched a ride. In exchange for the ride out he supplied the PCs with the LAV and mini gun and some additional supplies and ammo. The blackmarketeer forgot that it doesn't help having all kinds of goodies when you don't know how to operate them.
So the PCs make the run. The LAV is hit and imobilized. Its crew is killed except the gunner who continues laying down fire dueling it out against some evil heavy weapon the Russians had in a dug in position. Kim goes down firiing even as the flames envolope him.
The truck with the quad ZSU rakes the stone building that was used as a barracks, but the vehicle is stopped when it is turned to swiss cheese from automatic weapons fire, its tires were flattened, the engine shot through. The gunner turned the ZSU on the stone building keeping the enemy down, then raked the woods next to the river hopefully clearing it.
And then it was a scramble for the survivors to grab their wounded if they could, and cross the bridge all while under fire.
And that was how my group made it back to freindly lines.
There was another aspect or two that I had omitted that were pretty cool too.
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Hangfire7 08-05-2008, 01:04 AM Deacon:
As for anti air artillery, I am actualy working up a campaign where it will play a role. It a Twilight 1950 campaign. Using one of the theories that the Soviet Union and Its Allies would attack Western Europe while they were having to deal with Korea. So quad .50s are part of the unit watching the Sovs from across a small river. Of course the quads purpose is to provide anti air for the engineers, radio intercept and supporting infantry at the bridge and in the town. But it is in the front of mind that in Korea half track mounted quad .50s were used on occassion to break some of the massed human wave attacks employed by the N. Koreans and Chi Coms.
As for Tanks, again the last campaign I related to you.
"Da Bozz" had a platoon of T-55s. He sent them against the PCs who were holed up at an abanonded mine. The PCs split up, brought a bull dozier online and used it to go down the single lane primative unmaintained road. The drive was severely wounded but he did clear the way for the party to escape. Coupled with a heroic act on the part of two of its members.
Two of them snuck into "Da Bozzs" camp while one of their number layed down cover fire. They tossed a thermite in the engine of one of "Da Bozzs" tanks and then drew attention to themselves. they then climbed into one of the tanks and tried to clear the road of enemy leading the way and providing cover and fire power for their members stuck on the road trying to escape from the mine. The mine was in hills and had just the one road for access.
They came up the rear of two BTRs who the vehicles or its dismounts had had killed three members of the party. Two of them were shot in the back as they lay on the ground wounded.
But, a tank battle ensued. Shortlived mind you. Our PCs won the tank battle but the tank the PCs were in had suffered damage and was afire, that coupled with the road being in poor condition well, the road gave way beneath its weight and it rolled down the side of the hill. The PCs thought the last man was dead. They were wrong. The last they heard was his screams as he came too trapped in the flaming wreckage and he screamed over the radio for help that never came.
Oh, yeah, they also had an encounter with a spy of "Da Bozz." He was found out just before they made their break out, shortly after they dropped the mortar rounds on the group who tried to infiltrate on the low area <mentioned above.> He was loosely hung. A noose around the neck, tossed around an engine hoist and pulled until he was on his tip toes. then, one of the PCs shot him in the ankles.
typing this makes me miss a good game with all of the plot twists I used.
Like the farm house full of wounded was a pretty dramatic scene, forcing the women there to leave. leaving men behind who they knew would most likely be killed and knowing there would be nothing you could do.
Or when they manned the check point, and trucks filled with POWs captured from the 5th rolled through, one spit at one of the PCs and was severely beaten by the guard.
And of course my paymaster and the blackmarketeer added as well.
Alot of whammys which make for a good game.
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Raellus 08-08-2008, 06:01 PM In my "Pirates..." campaign, the party has made good use of their 82mm Vasilek ("Cornflower") automortar.
They have successfully used it in both the indirect and direct fire modes. The latter, in particular, has proved especially deadly to their enemies. With the generous v2.2 direct fire deviation rules, the PC gunner's high skill, and some lucky rolls, its managed t rack up the highest number of kills of any of the Wisla Krolowa's other crew-served weapons (including three DShK HMGs, one AGS-17 AGL, one Mk-19 AGL, and numerous LMGs).
WP is a particularly effective round, providing both instant smoke and nasty incindiary/fragmentation effects. The Vasilek/WP combo has saved the tug on several occasions.
It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking up one.
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DeaconR 08-08-2008, 08:37 PM It really does sound like one hell of a campaign, Hangfire, I wish I could have been in it. I've noticed that everyone mentions mortars--well they're the most common heavy weapon of course especially in TW2000. One of the things I think is particularly cool about your game is that you actually started out with people that would have been at a bn area--like a paymaster! I did a similar thing once where for example the aviation officer had been made a staff officer since she didn't have anything to fly, there was also a FO, the driver of a HQ vehicle, an RTO and a vehicle mechanic who happened to be working on said HQ vehicle. When 122mm rounds started dropping in their area they picked up and fled; the CO and the other staff never showed up. (I introduced the character of the CO and his XO implying they'd be stuck with higher ranking NPCs only to have them killed off in the first session. I even gave him little oddities like making him seem like a CO from a WWII movie, complete with a disc player that constantly played a loop of 1940s music. He referred to everyone in the party as 'son'. They thought they'd be stuck with him.)
Targan: I kind of missed it before, but Po has several mortar teams? How many npcs and pcs do you have now? What's the TO&E of "Team Blanket"?
fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
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copeab 08-08-2008, 09:57 PM fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
Then they should have done this (yes, it's a real vehicle, used by the French in the 1950's):
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thefusilier 08-08-2008, 11:46 PM Then they should have done this (yes, it's a real vehicle, used by the French in the 1950's):
LOL, please say it isn't so.
fusilier: I didn't know you were still running a campaign, but my most recent group also picked up a recoiless rifle, which they decided was too big to lug around but which they traded to a village for their militia in exchange for food and fuel.
They could have taken it, but it had no wheels (B-11). They contemplated strapping it to the top of one of their carriers, but in the end it was too much work and would take too long (enemy coming). They took the ammo for the reasons you mentioned.
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copeab 08-09-2008, 12:42 AM LOL, please say it isn't so.
http://www.longstoryshortpier.com/2007/01/08/mle-56
Brandon
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simonmark6 08-09-2008, 06:23 AM I've seen one of these in real life, they have one at the French Tank Museum at Saumur, and incredible place if you can get to it. It's right next to a British Air Mobile jeep that folds up to the size of a big suitcase. People did some crazy things in those days. Then again look at the Onotos, a direct fire LAV where you have to get out every time you want to reload!
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Gen.Lee 08-13-2008, 07:09 PM I was very generous in my first time GMing T2k, and let them find a fixable M1, but no main-gun ammo, I think. They picked up an 82mm Vasilek later, and had a lot more fun with that.
When their convoy once got mortared (120mm?), they got really tense and quiet when one of those bombs came within 2mm of penetrating the deck armor of the Abrams. They escaped, and it started raining. I had just picked up the "Going Home" module, so one player pointed at that and said, "Let's go home." I broke a party's morale!!!!
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