Police Forces

[CJHusVar]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the status of some of the larger urban police departments? I don't really find anything in the published material that discusses them. "State Defense Forces", sure, but nothing on local or state law enforcement.

These are LARGE organizations, especially when one looks at departments like the NYPD, the Chicago Police and the LAPD. Granted a good number of officers would be mobilized reservists or draftees, but surely these agencies just didn't pack it in.

[Olefin]

The NYC module Armies of the Night mentions that whats left of the police force has retreated from Manhattan and is with what is left of the city government in the Bronx - describes it as a handful of metropolitan police. You would figure that in many areas the police may have broken up or been recruited into either militia units or impressed into military MP forces.

[Raellus]

I've been wrestling with this question in my Arkansas-set T2030 campaign. Like you said, a lot of reservists and National / State Guard members will be recalled to active duty. Then again, a lot of volunteer and auxiliaries will likely be "called up to the big leagues" as it were. I reckon you'd see a lot of hasty deputizations as well. I still think you'd see a net loss in law enforcement manpower at pretty much every level (national, state, county, municipal), though, with departments shrinking as they lose officers to the military.

I think it will also vary state-by-state. I think a lot of states will declare martial law and activate their State Guard/State Defense Force, using said at least part of the time for law enforcement duties. This would be prevalent in states that have been invaded (i.e. the Southwest or Alaska & the Pacific Northwest), or those dealing with groups like New America.

In any case, State Guard /SDFs will probably wear two hats- traditional military and law enforcement.

[Legbreaker]

Working on what to do with police in the Anzac book too. What I've come to is that every area will be different and local conditions dictate the situation.
One area for example is essentially a police state with the government and law enforcement holding very tight control over almost all aspects of the citizens there.
Other areas the best you can hope for is a sympathetic vigilante coming by....maybe...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I can imagine though, that governments would try to preserve their various police forces for as long as possible simply because you still need police even if there's a war on.
I would question the idea of most (or even, many) police officers being called up for military service because there has already been a precedent set from WW2 whereby certain occupations were seen as vital for the functioning of the state and were thus exempt from military service.

This exemption, depending on the national need, applied to farmers, truck & train drivers and police as well as other occupations.
However for T2k, once the war starts grinding down the world and governments start losing their influence & control, I can easily see the police force being run down either through poaching of personnel, neglect by the government or by choice of the individual police officers (who feel that other issues are of more concern for them e.g. protecting their families).

[bash]

I don't see any reason for anyone's military to actively draft police officers for military service in the TW. In terms of warm bodies the selective service pool is far larger and skews younger than the average police officer. A drafted police officer and fresh high school graduate require the same BT/AIT investment. It's not like you hand the typical police officer an M-16 and they're an instant Rambo. Even SWAT is usually just some extra training, a couple qualifications, and getting to wear TactiCool gear once in a while.

That being said, there's no way any government is going to take police off the streets in light of a nuclear exchange. Most areas will need all the help they can get maintaining order and/or responding to the active disaster that is the world. Police forces would likely increase in manpower with deputization and crash training programs.

As order breaks down later in the war police forces might form the nucleus of some local militias or bandit gangs due to the fact they had some pre-war organization and infrastructure. Police stations would also make good HQs for militias and bandits for the same reasons.

[mpipes]

In my campaign, the LAPD became more dependent on Reserve police officer, and many of the Reserve force were working full time as police officers by TDM. Most of the LAPD personnel was killed during TDM and in the immediate aftermath. The entire area was still very chaotic when the Mexican Army invaded, and most surviving officers ended up in ad hoc militia units fighting the Mexican Army. Most police armories were destroyed by firestorms in the aftermath of the nuclear attack. Surviving police armories have been thoroughly culled through by surviving officers or systematically looted. Even most of the destroyed armories were picked over by salvage parties or looters, but there are pockets of police weapons and ammo still remaining in the ruins of police stations.

[Legbreaker]

A drafted police officer and fresh high school graduate require the same BT/AIT investment. It's not like you hand the typical police officer an M-16 and they're an instant Rambo.

I can't speak for other countries of course, but here police are barely trained with their service pistol and are lucky to fire off a mag or two on the range once a year. The priority is on them finding ways to avoid the need to shoot, and most couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with another barn!
Even the supposed "elites" of the various tactical response groups (pick your appropriate acronym) aren't known for their proficiency or even general firearms knowledge.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I can't speak for other countries of course, but here police are barely trained with their service pistol and are lucky to fire off a mag or two on the range once a year. The priority is on them finding ways to avoid the need to shoot, and most couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with another barn!
Even the supposed "elites" of the various tactical response groups (pick your appropriate acronym) aren't known for their proficiency or even general firearms knowledge.
Hehehe oh yeah, spot on.
I remember watching the news at various times in the 1990s, where they showed footage of some of Australia's special police units when they were tracking dangerous fugitives in the Aussie bush. You could immediately spot the ones who had some bush knowledge or even just bush walking experience - they were the only ones who were not looking at their feet as they "cleared" the scrub. And sad to say, there weren't many of them with any sort of rural tactical knowledge until the started getting training from the SAS.

A mate of mine is a former Western Australian Police (WAPol) officer, his experiences with some of the officers from the Tactical Response Group (TRG, the West Aussie police special unit) was... well, let's just say less than favourable. In his own words, half of them were decent officers, the other half were cowboys who wanted the prestige of being in the "elite" unit.

The TRG have a few nicknames and none of the ones I've heard are positive...
The Terribly Rough Guys is probably the least negative (but it's also the one that many WAPol officers used when talking about the TRG).
Another, based on their fairly common ability to raid the wrong house when attempting to capture dangerous criminals was Totally (w)Rong Grid. You don't get nicknames like that unless you're consistently fucking up.

[Olefin]

I actually go into some detail on the police in Kenya who are one of the few countries that still have intact police forces - and I address issues like how they were not known for being the best shots or being very well armed. Of course there the police are broken up into various branches including the General Service Unit which is a paramilitary branch.

[Gunner]

So, I can only speak to my experience. I currently live in Urban Maryland, but for eight years I lived in Central Arkansas. My family has a long history in law enforcement that I won't bore you with.

The primary reason that I believe you would see very poor retention among most law enforcement agencies is that a good part of the force, sometimes a majority, just doesn't live in the community where they work. For example, if I recall correctly, the last time I checked, something like 60% of the Little Rock (AR) Police Department lives outside the city. I know in my small town, nearly all of the patrol officers lived elsewhere. Only Sergeants and above generally lived in town, and not all of them. I recall that our Chief of Police actually lived in another town, where he had worked his way up the ranks. When he was passed over for the Chief's job in his town, he took the job in our town. Not sure how long he stayed. Law enforcement is one career where at least limited geographic mobility was the norm. It's my experience, that a police officer might work for three or four different departments over a 20-year career and might leave a department for a span of years and then return when a new opportunity becomes available.

Of course, post-Twilight War, this kind of mobility will be unheard of and I could see a 'reshuffling' of officers, as some officers stay and protect the communities they DO live in, but there is also the additional issue that, outside of densely urban areas, alot of officers live in the rural area outside the city/town area where they work and would, I feel, be motivated to "protect the homestead" rather than a community of semi-strangers.

The issue of law enforcement officers also being subject to military reserve/National Guard recall has been covered well by others.

[Legbreaker]

Hehehe oh yeah, spot on.

This rather nicely sums up most of them.

4289

[Raellus]

I wish that were the case here. Police in the U.S. are much more heavily armed, mostly because the populace is too.

I'm no legal expert, but I reckon that reservists and National Guardsmen in law enforcement wouldn't be given the choice to stay with their departments if/whn called up. I think this would have a significant impact on police strength. I can't give you a percentage right now, but quite a few police officers/sheriff's deputies are ex-military. And, even with the draft, I think the government would dip into the civilian law enforcement pool. IIRC, I've read articles about police departments struggling to put officers on the streets during the Iraq surge, when the DoD was desperate for boots on the ground overseas.

I agree that after the TDM, all bets would be off and it would be every state and municipality for itself.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

<snip> And, even with the draft, I think the government would dip into the civilian law enforcement pool. IIRC, I've read articles about police departments struggling to put officers on the streets during the Iraq surge, when the DoD was desperate for boots on the ground overseas.
<snip>
Do you think that thought process would still be applied in a world war situation? I'm inclined to think that with the massive reduction of male population due to the need for warm bodies on the front lines of a world war, that it would be given a lot of serious thought by the government before pillaging police manpower.
The reason I think that is because I think it would be more important than ever to maintain (somewhat effective) police forces while the national effort is focused on the global conflict.

[CDAT]

I think that it would depend on the point of the conflict. Just looking at my old department, when I was with them we had about twenty five officers, I do not know how we compared to other departments but at least 75% of our officer were prior service or in the guard/reserves. With about 1/3 to 1/2 of them in the Guard/Reserves we would lose them likely at the start of the war. How many of the others would we lose when they started needing more people, as most of them were recently out so not much needed to bring them back up to speed, or fill out leaderships spots in the expanding military?

[Legbreaker]

My first reserve unit had a policeman as a member. Even though it was peace time and he had a relatively easy "day" job (was able to pick his own hours, etc as he was assigned to a small one man post about 45 minutes out of town), he still had great difficulty balancing the two roles.
Didn't take long before he dropped the army entirely and focused solely on being a policeman.

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

[CDAT]

As mentioned earlier (by several people) what happens in T2K depends heavily on local conditions. In some areas the perception may be that police are not needed (I'm thinking this is more likely in rural areas), while others, an increase in police numbers may be warranted (but perhaps not actually achieved due to manpower and skills shortages).

It's very difficult to state categorically that police would be stripped of manpower nationally, even on a state or regional level. Every town, county, municipality, shire, etc would need to be assessed on a case by case basis with not just the usual police duties and responsibilities assessed, but the risk of saboteurs and so forth also included.

I kind of agree, I do not think that it would be done on purpose, but early stages when the called up units I do not think that they would make exceptions for police, as that would likely make major leadership holes in the military unit (not all but most I would think). After this I think most departments would be able to deal by mandatory overtime, longer shifts and the like. Then when they started recalling the IRR (US term, Individual Ready Reserve, people who have gotten out recently and are still within eight years of joining) I again do not see they exempting the police. Now having said this I think that this mostly applies to the US, and there is also a system for the Guard/Reserves that an employee can be designated by their employer as critical to the job, I do not know all the requirements for it (I do not know if private employers can do this or only government for example). During my time in the Guard and as a Officer I deployed two time and my department was not happy, however when told about the way that they could designate us as critical they were unwilling to do so, off the top of my head I do not know of any that have ever even tried to use it. I do know of some that if you join that agence you can not be a member of the Guard or Reserves, and if you are they will discharge you.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

[CJHusVar]

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them? I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

[CJHusVar]

Keep in mind that for many police forces overseas they may be, at least partially, already militarized. The police force in Kenya has a militarized arm that in some way is better armed and trained than their military. Senegal's police are aligned closely to how France and Belgium had theirs - i.e. they basically are the equivalent of military police in many ways.

The US is a very different animal - i.e you may have reservists or ex-military police members in police departments but they are the exception and not even close to the rule

The French Gendarmerie Nationale comes to mind. They police rural areas and small towns, but have a wartime security mission under the Ministry of Defense. The Police Nationale have jurisdiction in larger towns and cities and fall under the Ministry of the Interior. I'm sure they have wartime contingency plans as well.

[Raellus]

I think it bears looking at what countries have historically done during total, modern wars. I don't know if police forces in the major democracies were reduced to provide military manpower during WW2, but I know that, late in the war, many German police forces were stripped bare to bolster Volksgrenadier and Volkssturm units. And Nazi Germany was a police state!

I'd like to hear from someone who has expertise on the subject of law enforcement in the Allied nations during WW2.

It's been pointed out, but bears repeated that some urban police forces would be all but destroyed by nuclear strikes, and this could have a knock-on effect on the police forces of affected suburbs and surrounding satellite towns.

[Olefin]

Look at the Los Angeles area - given the number of nuclear weapons used and their effects the LAPD must have taken catastrophic losses during the strikes and riots and disruptions afterward - I would have been surprised if ten to fifteen percent were still on their feet within a couple of days of the strikes. Same for the police in Washington DC and other areas hit heavily.

And with those departments gone the surrounding areas would have had major issues trying to keep any order at all

[Raellus]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

[copeab]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?


Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

[Raellus]

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

re #3, you really think so? I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I suppose there could be some isolated incidents of rogue prison wardens "liquidating" inmates after the TDM breakdown of civilization, but, at least in the USA., don't you think citizen's concept of civil, constitutional rights, and due process (not to mention basic human rights) would be a major obstacle to any, systematic large-scale executions?

[copeab]

re #3, you really think so? I can't tell if your response is dead serious or a bit tongue-in-cheek.


Serious, although this will vary by nation and reason for incarceration. For example, I would not expect serial killers or pedophiles to be given a rifle or shovel. Mass murderers are iffy, depending on how likely they are deemed to turn on their (non-criminal) superiors.

The executions might be organized, by some guards on their way out, or by other prisoners.

[CDAT]

Even if 30% of a department like NYPD were mobilized Guard/Reserve, that would still leave nearly 20,000 armed and organized personnel available. I would think that if there was a declaration of martial law, those departments would continue to exist and execute their normal duties, albeit under the direction of the senior military commander. I don't see them being rolled into an MP Brigade (although that HQ could provide command, control and coordination) or otherwise "drafted". The very organization itself would be too valuable to dispense with.

That also brings up the question of the other substantial Federal law enforcement agencies. What becomes of them? I could see most going with the CIVGOV and, again, providing an armed and organized force for control of local areas and facilities.

Just remember that under martial law, civil law is suspended, and only military law is active. So either they would be drafted into the military or they are no longer law enforcement. I would guess that they would be "drafted" as an entire unit as a "MP Brigade"

As for the other FLEO's I would guess that they are either going to be part of CivGov where they would still be FLEO's or if they go with MilGov then they would be incorporated (drafted/direct commissioned) in the MP's or CID.

[pmulcahy11b]

[QUOTE=Raellus;82751]What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

For maximum security-type nasty individuals, lock them in their cells, weld the bars shut, then walk away from the place. You get to avoid mass executions and they will cease to be a problem sooner or later except for the escape artists. Stations sharpshooter teams around the prison for a while and have then shoot anyone who makes it out.

For less "acute" criminals, these can be recruited into work gangs, or if they have usable skills and still remember enough of them, put their knowledge to work. Stoners and drunks will probably benefit from work gangs while they get clean; then you can find out if they also have any usable skills.

[Legbreaker]

For maximum security-type nasty individuals...

I was thinking along the same lines. May not be an organised "culling", but as more and more guards desert after the nukes and food supplies dry up, the prisoners are more and more likely to remain locked in their cells 24 hours a day.
In some cases a few of the more soft hearted guards may try to keep the inmates alive, but sooner or later they're going to be faced with a decision - them or us.

In some places prisoners may find themselves chained together and used as slave labour. This seems most likely in NA controlled areas.

[CDAT]

What do you guys see happening to belligerents' prison populations?

I think they would be culled for military manpower. People with minor or non-violent felonies would be released if they agreed to join the military. Only the really dangerous folks would remain behind bars. A reduction in the prison population would also mean that corrections officers (prison guards) would be available as well, either for the military, or to transition to police duty.

Depending on their offenses, one of:

(1) drafted into the military

(2) sent to labor battalions

(3) executed

First I am assuming that by prison you are also including jails. Going on that assumption I do not think that Copeab is close depending on the time point. The later in the time line we are talking the more draconian it will be.

Overall I think most that are able in body and mind (this I think is the bigger issue those with serious metal illness) will be offered the choice of joining, but I do not see many (if any) being forced to join tell the draft is started, then they would be treated like draftees. For those who are unable/unwilling to joining the military I think most of them will be used for labor either as a labor battalion, or prison labor doing manual labor/menial tasks (making big rocks into little rocks, and the such). For the most most violent (and those who kill in prison) I could see them being executed, but more likely they would be killed in the act or when it gets bad enough that they decide to call it quits at the prison I would not be surprised to see those few still in prison to just be left locked in there cells.

[Legbreaker]

...to just be left locked in there cells.

You may even find some family members or sympathetic and/or misguided people take over from the guards by supplying food and other necessities. They may not have the keys to open cells or the equipment to break them open, but...
In the case of family or friends, they may understand that opening the cells and releasing the prisoner(s) could be a very bad thing, but given their personal ties, leaving them to die isn't an option either.

Could be a bit of an adventure hook there. For example a person approaches PCs for help in getting somebody out because they're no longer able to feed them through the bars. Person tells PCs the prisoner is wrongfully imprisoned/victim of marauders or some other sob story (could be true, could be total fiction). PCs help and release a serial killer into the world and then have to deal with the consequences.

[Raellus]

As an alternative to mass killings or locking up inmates and literally throwing away the key, I can imagine a few instances where prison populations are reduced to the worst of the worst (violent criminals, serial recidivists), freeing up a lot of prison space and reducing the number of guards needed to keep them contained. Within the prison walls, the inmates have free reign. The inmates can move freely among the cell blocks, and can use the "yard" to grow food, raise livestock. Local family and friends can supplement this prison-grown food supply if willing and able. If the inmates kill each others, so be it. As long as they don't try to escape, they can do what they please.

Guards maintain a fortified perimeter and are authorized to shoot on sight if prisoners attempt to escape.

[Legbreaker]

...Guards maintain a fortified perimeter and are authorized to shoot on sight if prisoners attempt to escape.

Possible, but I'm thinking that post nuke that will be the exception rather than the rule. How many of the guards, who shouldn't be forming anything more than a professional relationship with inmates, will stick around when supplies and their salary stops coming? May be a handful who do it purely out of a sense of duty, however given many of the prisoners in the higher security facilities (especially) have and continue to express great hostility to the staff, in some cases through physical attacks, any sense of duty would likely be to the job, not inmates.

At least in a POW camp, the inmates, while technically hostile, aren't sociopaths, etc. They at least can generally be reasoned with, and both sides tend (not always of course) to have a level of mutual respect. Many of those prisoners could be released without great problem, provided of course they're aware of the general overall situation, and this is shown in the game by many units having integrated other nationalities which in a number of cases include some who were once enemies.

[Raellus]

Possible, but I'm thinking that post nuke that will be the exception rather than the rule. How many of the guards, who shouldn't be forming anything more than a professional relationship with inmates, will stick around when supplies and their salary stops coming? May be a handful who do it purely out of a sense of duty, however given many of the prisoners in the higher security facilities (especially) have and continue to express great hostility to the staff, in some cases through physical attacks, any sense of duty would likely be to the job, not inmates.

That's a very valid question. I didn't mention it, but the scenario I presented assumed a prison still administered by a state- i.e. the guards are "paid" in some way by a government of some sorts. Maybe it's just food and fuel, but in a world where such things are no longer a given, it would probably be enough to keep showing up to work.

I agree that once pay stops, the guards are gonso. I can imagine a situation where a local community might take control of administering a prison rather than allowing the release of its inmates into said community, but this would be a very rare exception.

[Legbreaker]

I can imagine a situation where a local community might take control of administering a prison rather than allowing the release of its inmates into said community, but this would be a very rare exception.

Given even just the passive levels of security on prisons, it would take a fairly hefty effort to get inside in the first place just to check on the status of inmates. Far easier to just ignore the problem for a while until it's no longer a problem....

And we all know people in general usually take the easy path.

[Raellus]

Just abandoning a prison is tantamount to releasing the inmates into the community. Without active supervision, most U.S. prisons wouldn't be at all hard to break out of.

I also think y'all overestimate the psychological ease of welding prison cells closed, dooming those inside to a slow, agonizing death via dehydration. The same goes for lining up all the inmates and shooting them, or whatever. I'm sure it would happen, but I reckon it would be the exception rather than the rule.

[pmulcahy11b]

Just abandoning a prison is tantamount to releasing the inmates into the community. Without active supervision, most U.S. prisons wouldn't be at all hard to break out of.

I also think y'all overestimate the psychological ease of welding prison cells closed, dooming those inside to a slow, agonizing death via dehydration. The same goes for lining up all the inmates and shooting them, or whatever. I'm sure it would happen, but I reckon it would be the exception rather than the rule.

Hence the snipers stationed around the prison. Sooner or later, all the prisoners will be dead, one way or another.

And I would have no problem welding the prison cells shut, myself if necessary. As I said, we would empty out the prison of nonviolent prisoners, and weld the bars shut on the nasty murders, rapists, child molesters, etc.

[copeab]

And I would have no problem welding the prison cells shut, myself if necessary. As I said, we would empty out the prison of nonviolent prisoners, and weld the bars shut on the nasty murders, rapists, child molesters, etc.

And these prisoners would calmly stand at the back of cells while being welded in?

[pmulcahy11b]

And these prisoners would calmly stand at the back of cells while being welded in?

No, you bring mean-looking gun-toting guards with you.

[Legbreaker]

Of if they get too close, you "accidentally slip" with the welding torch...

[CDAT]

Just abandoning a prison is tantamount to releasing the inmates into the community. Without active supervision, most U.S. prisons wouldn't be at all hard to break out of.

I also think y'all overestimate the psychological ease of welding prison cells closed, dooming those inside to a slow, agonizing death via dehydration. The same goes for lining up all the inmates and shooting them, or whatever. I'm sure it would happen, but I reckon it would be the exception rather than the rule.

I am not sure how the prisons around you are built, but the ones that I have done prisoner transfers to were I live would not be easy to break out of, also someone was talking about using them using the "yard" to grow food and such, the one that I go to most of the time, it is inside, with thick walls all around it. You would need heavy equipment to do just about anything with this center.

[Legbreaker]

I am not sure how the prisons around you are built...

All the prisons I know (and a number of other industrial facilities also) are built so that the passive measures will absolutely stand up to just about anything prisoners can throw at it. Sure, over a long period of time they may be able to dig their way out with a spoon, but that isn't going to happen without starving to death first.
Some prisons do have various tools and machinery which could help, but that's all locked away out of reach when not actually in use and heavily supervised - might as well all be on the moon for all the good they will do.
Anything above low security facilities are all steel and reinforced concrete with no available areas to grow more than the odd weed in the cracks. Low security (usually prison farms in my experience) are a different matter, but only prisoners who present the absolute minimum of risk get sent there and in a T2K situation have probably already been drafted or used as additional manpower elsewhere. The prison itself might end up used as a POW camp with a little bit of an upgrade, and later as a secure base for a military unit, or even local civilians looking for some sort of a solid fence to help keep marauders at bay.

[Raellus]

Most prisons here in the U.S. built after the 1960s or so, are surrounded only with chain-link fencing. If said perimeter fence isn't monitored and guarded (and/or electrified), there's nothing to stop people from scaling or knocking said fences down. Once outside of the buildings where the inmates are housed- which admittedly might take some doing- I can't imagine it would be that difficult to get past the fencing.

Getting out of the housing units would be trickier, but do y'all really think a couple of hundred men couldn't figure out a way to bust through a few metal doors? It would take time and a lot of muscle power, but it's entirely possible.

[Legbreaker]

...couple of hundred men couldn't figure out a way to bust through a few metal doors? It would take time and a lot of muscle power, but it's entirely possible.

Not when they're designed to prevent more than a few men at a time applying their strength, and there's no suitable materials available to make rope - prison sheets for example are made to come apart easily when put under that sort of stress, mostly as suicide prevention, but also to eliminate their use as rope to go over walls, etc.

Even if you could get rope strong enough to handle the MANY tonnes of tension, getting that many prisoners to work together all at the same time would be an absolutely amazing feat of leadership. Most can't even work in pairs without somebody ending up with a shiv in the ribs.

Additionally, prisoners spend most of their time in relatively small groups (unlike what movies like to show), with gates, doors, etc between each group. It's really only in the exercise yard that they can be found in larger numbers, and then they're locked out of the buildings and away from all the useful stuff that might help them escape.

I really can't imagine the guards letting the prisoners have essentially free run of the place when they walk off the job. More likely they'd be locked inside perhaps with access to the kitchens, latrines and food storage areas, but beyond that....

I know here in Australia on the rare occasions guards go on strike, police have to take over. At those times the prisoners remain locked inside their individual cells with food delivered to them. A toilet and hand basin are in each cell to cover immediate needs. The only difference to that I can see in a T2K situation is the police wouldn't be stepping in to keep an eye on things and it's unlikely food delivers would occur. Might be a prisoner or two released into the gaol to attend to that, but they'd still be locked within the walls just like everyone else (just with a little more leg room).

[Raellus]

I'm not proud of this, but the U.S.A. has the largest prison population in the world, and hundreds of prisons run by states, the federal government, and for-profit corporations (not to mention city and county jails, and juvenile detention centers). There are currently at least a half-a-dozen documentary/"reality" shows on television here in the US about prison life, and fictional depictions of said like Oz and Orange is the New Black. I haven't watched every episode of every one of these many prison shows, but I've seen enough to know that:

In some prisons and jails, inmates in gen-pop spend most of their waking hours hanging around in large groups and are only confined to their cells at night. In particularly overcrowded prisons, they live in open-floor dormitory areas.

In others, large groups of inmates work most of the day in laundries, kitchens, and workshops. Such inmates have access to various tools and machinery that would be quite helpful in getting out (assuming they could get into said work areas. See +).

Your characterization that prisoners can't work together and will only end up killing one another is overly simplistic and calls on the basest of stereotypes*. Prisoners have worked together to build/operate stills, pass notes from door to door in the solitary confinement blocks, develop working economies, and run various criminal enterprises from inside prison walls, and continue to do so as I write (and you read). There's simply no logical explanation for why inmates couldn't work together to break out of prison buildings in a life-or-starve-to-death situation.

*Even in supermax prisons, there are engineers, chemists, construction workers, etc. serving time for murder and other high crimes. These are people with knowledge and skills that would be very useful in breaking out of prison.

Yes, the prisoners would be locked inside prison buildings when the guards leave, but unless they are each locked and/or welded into their individual cells, they will eventually be able to get out.

A. I don't think most sane, ethical people would be OK with having a direct hand in the slow death of dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of people.

B. Yes, there would be quite a few that would reluctantly do it, and even some would do so enthusiastically with little prompting. But, as soon as the prisoners figure out what's going on, there's going to be bedlam. Welding inmates in their cells is much easier said than done.

+To execute the simplest of breakouts, groups of four men, working in rotating shifts, using a metal bench or some other basic ersatz battering ram, could, with several hours (or even days of work), defeat a steel door.

All of the above is just for the United States. In several third world states (at least), prisons are essentially walled in colonies where inmates are largely left to their own devices. There are guards to make sure that they don't get out, and food deliveries, but the inmates essentially have free run of the prison.

Granted, Australian prisons might be very different, so I'll cede to your authority there. I doubt the Aussie prisoners are all that much different from prisoners everywhere else, though.

BTW, have you read Shantaram?

[CDAT]

Most prisons here in the U.S. built after the 1960s or so, are surrounded only with chain-link fencing. If said perimeter fence isn't monitored and guarded (and/or electrified), there's nothing to stop people from scaling or knocking said fences down. Once outside of the buildings where the inmates are housed- which admittedly might take some doing- I can't imagine it would be that difficult to get past the fencing.

Getting out of the housing units would be trickier, but do y'all really think a couple of hundred men couldn't figure out a way to bust through a few metal doors? It would take time and a lot of muscle power, but it's entirely possible.

I'm not proud of this, but the U.S.A. has the largest prison population in the world, and hundreds of prisons run by states, the federal government, and for-profit corporations (not to mention city and county jails, and juvenile detention centers). There are currently at least a half-a-dozen documentary/"reality" shows on television here in the US about prison life, and fictional depictions of said like Oz and Orange is the New Black. I haven't watched every episode of every one of these many prison shows, but I've seen enough to know that:

In some prisons and jails, inmates in gen-pop spend most of their waking hours hanging around in large groups and are only confined to their cells at night. In particularly overcrowded prisons, they live in open-floor dormitory areas.

In others, large groups of inmates work most of the day in laundries, kitchens, and workshops. Such inmates have access to various tools and machinery that would be quite helpful in getting out (assuming they could get into said work areas. See +).

Your characterization that prisoners can't work together and will only end up killing one another is overly simplistic and calls on the basest of stereotypes*. Prisoners have worked together to build/operate stills, pass notes from door to door in the solitary confinement blocks, develop working economies, and run various criminal enterprises from inside prison walls, and continue to do so as I write (and you read). There's simply no logical explanation for why inmates couldn't work together to break out of prison buildings in a life-or-starve-to-death situation.

*Even in supermax prisons, there are engineers, chemists, construction workers, etc. serving time for murder and other high crimes. These are people with knowledge and skills that would be very useful in breaking out of prison.

Yes, the prisoners would be locked inside prison buildings when the guards leave, but unless they are each locked and/or welded into their individual cells, they will eventually be able to get out.

A. I don't think most sane, ethical people would be OK with having a direct hand in the slow death of dozens, if not hundreds or even thousands of people.

B. Yes, there would be quite a few that would reluctantly do it, and even some would do so enthusiastically with little prompting. But, as soon as the prisoners figure out what's going on, there's going to be bedlam. Welding inmates in their cells is much easier said than done.

+To execute the simplest of breakouts, groups of four men, working in rotating shifts, using a metal bench or some other basic ersatz battering ram, could, with several hours (or even days of work), defeat a steel door.

All of the above is just for the United States. In several third world states (at least), prisons are essentially walled in colonies where inmates are largely left to their own devices. There are guards to make sure that they don't get out, and food deliveries, but the inmates essentially have free run of the prison.

Granted, Australian prisons might be very different, so I'll cede to your authority there. I doubt the Aussie prisoners are all that much different from prisoners everywhere else, though.

BTW, have you read Shantaram?

As I have said I can not speak for all prisons, jails, federal detention areas just the ones that I have been to. In my area none of them have bars inside they have reinforced steel doors with concrete walls. Only one of them has a chain link fence around it, and that is after you get out of the concrete and steel building. So yes if you can get out of the building it would not be difficult to get out the rest of the way, but getting out of the building with out either some tools and/or outside help would be almost impossible in my opinion.

Now having said that prisoner ingenuity is sometimes nothing short of mind blowing, so what they could come up with I can not say for sure. However the likely hood of having "a couple of hundred men" able to work on any part of it is not going to happen, at most you are going to have maybe twenty. As for the battering ram where are they going to get the ram? The most I have seen in a cell is a sink (light gauge steel), a toilet (also light gauge steel), a bunk(s) (thicker steel but still softer tempered), and maybe a shelf(s) (once more soft metal). So none of these will work as a battering ram, so unless they can come up with some idea that I can not (and as I said their ingenuity can sometimes be mind blowing so possible) so far they have no way out.

Now if we expand this out to the work areas for the most part the basic setups do not change none of the tables and such are really study enough to make a good ram, and most of the areas are designed to not have tools that would be very usable to escape with. However the workshops do have tools that could be useful (more likely more useful tools in the maintenance area then the prisoner workshop) but if you are planing on leaving them would you let them have access to this area? If you are planing on leaving and not coming back would you not want to take at least most of the easy to move tools?

I am not one who thinks that they would not be able to work together, but before we got to the point that they would be left in there cells to die, I do think you would only have the worst of the worst left, all the rest either having been drafted, or released to reduce the number of guards needed. Now yes it is possible that some of these remaining inmates have advanced knowledge that would help they to escape. I am not sure how many of the guards that would be left at this point would really have issues with just locking them up and walking away, as I said I am basing this on there only being the worst of the worst left. So if you only have the murderers, rapists, child molesters and the likes left and likely the ones who are anti-social, I think it is much less likely that the guards will have any attachment to them. It would be entirely possible to have revulsion and/or dislike for them depending on how they have acted during the time that they have been there.

Now lets go on the assumption that they somehow did get a tool that would let them defeat the door (or the wall around the door enough to get the door open) I am guessing that with any hand tool it would take several days at the very lest per door (lets say between two and four day per) the shortest route out of the one that I went to most often was four doors and that was from the holding cells where they placed the inmates that we notified them before hand we would be picking up, from other locations it would double or more the number of doors to get through. So we are looking at between eight and sixteen day for the easy way, now even if it takes half that time (four to eight days) this is assuming that the inmates started right after the guards left, that they did not wait any time. The more time that they waited before they started working (thinking that the guards would be back or whatever) the weaker they would become from lack of food (depending on if/what they had in there cell with them), now they will be able to last for a month or so. But the more hard labor they are doing without food the weaker they will become so tasks will take more time and so on.

[pmulcahy11b]

My nephew was a prison guard before he joined the Army. (He's still in the Army, BTW, but as an Infantryman.) From what he described of his job (at the Huntsville, TX maximum-security facility) being a prison guard at a maximum-security prison is like Napoleon described wars: "Hours of boredom punctuated by minutes of sheer terror."

[Olefin]

Wasnt there a Challenge Magazine article about a bunch of Russian officers who broke out of a prison they were being held in somewhere in New Jersey?

[Raellus]

Thanks for sharing your experience, CDAT. You raise and reinforce some important points.

To answer your question re ersatz battering rams, in some prisons, ones with indoor common areas, I've seen metal table-bench combos bolted to the floor (the seniors at the high school I work at once detached and stacked many such tables in the commons as their graduation prank). Once detached, pieces of such could be used as battering rams to attack doors and/or walls. I agree that defeating reinforced steel doors and or concrete walls would take quite a lot of time, but that is something inmates have tons of.

What's stopping prisoners from doing this now is guard supervision. That's the key, IMHO. Without active supervision, prisoners would be free to try anything within their means to get out of prison buildings. This is why, if/when the guards go home (in a SHTF scenario), it would only be a matter of time before inmates would be busting out.

So, the idea that a community near a prison (and with hundreds of prisons in the U.S., there are many such communities) taking it upon themselves to police the local prison, rather than simply turning a blind eye or executing all of the inmates, isn't really far-fetched.

Again, I agree that at a few prisons, guards might take it upon themselves not to leave any inmates alive when they leave, but I think that would be the exception rather than the rule.

[Rockwolf66]

And let us not forget that most prison gangs have members on the outside and ties to non-prison gangs. Such groups would have a vested interest in getting their people out of prison.

I used to live in a prison town and I've made deliveries to said prison. I personally knew a pizza delivery guy who made a wrong turn going to the prison and was stopped by multiple armed guards. The guys with rifles in the towers are not just for keeping the prisoners in but keeping the prisoner's buddies out.

Then you have the various relationships between guards and prisoners. While most guards are totally professional you still get friendships between the guards and inmates. These run from guards who help out an inmate who is trying to reform, guards that do favors for criminals to guards that are criminals. You also get the occasional intimate relationship between guards and prisoners. I can totally see guards at a women's prison taking some of the inmates as concubines when they leave.

It's really a complex subject and it really depends on the prison. Some like Pelican Bay I could see some of the worst prisoner's culled. I could also see attempts to break prisoners out of the SHU.

[swaghauler]

I have to agree with CDAT and Rockwolf66, The prisoners don't exist in a vacuum and some prisoners may actually have good relations with the staff (these are usually referred to as "trustees"). I think that the worst offenders would be marched in front of the other Prisoners and executed by any occupying force (particularly a military one). WHY? Because that prison or jail is a VALUABLE RESOURCE! Every correctional facility generally has...

1) A large dining facility which can feed hundreds on short notice.
2) An independent power supply (diesel or natural gas based) to keep things running during an emergency.
3) Communications with the local government that are at least "disaster-resistant" and the ability to coordinate with government agencies.
4) Workshops and Fabrication facilities for a variety of Trades including Carpentry and Metalworking.
5) An Infirmary with the capability to treat at least minor injuries.
6) Security and Surveillance for important equipment storage.
7) Most importantly, a ready "labor force" that they don't have to pay and can push hard without major repercussions among the population.

I think that most facilities will be converted into makeshift production facilities or repair shops with important resources stored there and managed by the "captive labor force" they have at their fingertips.

[Lurken]

I have to agree with CDAT and Rockwolf66, The prisoners don't exist in a vacuum and some prisoners may actually have good relations with the staff (these are usually referred to as "trustees"). I think that the worst offenders would be marched in front of the other Prisoners and executed by any occupying force (particularly a military one). WHY? Because that prison or jail is a VALUABLE RESOURCE! Every correctional facility generally has...

1) A large dining facility which can feed hundreds on short notice.
2) An independent power supply (diesel or natural gas based) to keep things running during an emergency.
3) Communications with the local government that are at least "disaster-resistant" and the ability to coordinate with government agencies.
4) Workshops and Fabrication facilities for a variety of Trades including Carpentry and Metalworking.
5) An Infirmary with the capability to treat at least minor injuries.
6) Security and Surveillance for important equipment storage.
7) Most importantly, a ready "labor force" that they don't have to pay and can push hard without major repercussions among the population.

I think that most facilities will be converted into makeshift production facilities or repair shops with important resources stored there and managed by the "captive labor force" they have at their fingertips.


Just butting in to fully agree with this. This is a very likely outcome.

Even if the prisoners get reduced due to emergency drafts or forced labour, the facility stands and should work as an excellent center for a cantonment.

[rcaf_777]

I would figure that you might some former military pers who are now police officer ordered back to full time duty, depending on there skill set while in the army. Some others my leave the police to volunteer for duty. In both case maybe you see retire officers coming back as reserve officers, special deputies or whatever. After the bombs hit you see Sheriffs do stuff like in the last stand

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Stand_(2013_film)

[WallShadow]

*SNIP* Most police armories were destroyed by firestorms in the aftermath of the nuclear attack. Surviving police armories have been thoroughly culled through by surviving officers or systematically looted. Even most of the destroyed armories were picked over by salvage parties or looters, but there are pockets of police weapons and ammo still remaining in the ruins of police stations.

I hope those folks picking over police armories stopped by the evidence lockers to check out what was being held for trials that will probably never be heard.

[Targan]

Hehehe oh yeah, spot on.
I remember watching the news at various times in the 1990s, where they showed footage of some of Australia's special police units when they were tracking dangerous fugitives in the Aussie bush. You could immediately spot the ones who had some bush knowledge or even just bush walking experience - they were the only ones who were not looking at their feet as they "cleared" the scrub. And sad to say, there weren't many of them with any sort of rural tactical knowledge until the started getting training from the SAS.

A mate of mine is a former Western Australian Police (WAPol) officer, his experiences with some of the officers from the Tactical Response Group (TRG, the West Aussie police special unit) was... well, let's just say less than favourable. In his own words, half of them were decent officers, the other half were cowboys who wanted the prestige of being in the "elite" unit.

The TRG have a few nicknames and none of the ones I've heard are positive...
The Terribly Rough Guys is probably the least negative (but it's also the one that many WAPol officers used when talking about the TRG).
Another, based on their fairly common ability to raid the wrong house when attempting to capture dangerous criminals was Totally (w)Rong Grid. You don't get nicknames like that unless you're consistently fucking up.

One of my DIs in basic training, an Army Reserve infantry corporal, was also West Australian Police Tactical Response Group. This was back in the early 90s. He was an egotistical pretty-boy wanker, but he seemed to be a proficient soldier.

[Legbreaker]

He was an egotistical pretty-boy wanker...

Met a few of them, less the "good soldier" bit, almost exclusively from Uni regiments. Must be the whole fast track promotion thing they used to do to get commissioned.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Going back to one of the negative experiences my mate had with the Tactical Response Group (this was during the early 1990s in Perth, West. Aus.)
While he was still a general duties officer my mate was based at a station in a neighbourhood that had a pretty bad reputation in Perth. There were blocks of flats full of government housing tenants next to the police station and one of those residents decided to get pissy with his wife and threatened to kill her.

She nicks off down to the cop shop with the kids, which was in line of sight of their particular flat and reports the incident. Apparently hubby watched from the balcony.
So my mate (who was in normal police uniform at the time - important for later) and a senior officer who I believe was doing an inspection of the station at the time, go up to talk to the man in question.
Now the senior officer was a switched on fella and obviously quite experienced, he told my mate not to stand in the doorway when they knocked on the door and other such useful tactical tips. Keep in mind that this senior officer had been a general duties copper and not in TRG.

The suspect answers the knock with a blast of buckshot so my mate and the senior officer beat a retreat and call for backup.
Terribly Rough Guys show up and as my mate is giving cover to the senior officer so the senior can get to safety, one of the Terribly Rough Guys starts yelling at my mate that the TRG are here and taking control and then orders my mate to run towards him and away from the building... you know, over open ground... in line of sight of the bloke with a shotgun and an attitude who at any time, can look over his balcony several floors up and see anyone trying to cross that wide open patch of grass.

My mate says basically, "No way in hell" to which the TRG prat tells my mate to leave the area on authority of the police, i.e. I'm police and I'm telling you to leave.

My mate, who is, you know, a uniformed copper in uniform at the time, tells the TRG prat to fully fuck off and stays put where he has a good couple of floors of multi-storey building giving him concealment and
a tad more importantly, cover (and where he can also control one of the entry points to the block of flats).
Seems that in his excitement, the Tactical Response Group prat didn't fully appreciate the "tactical" part of his unit name.

[Olefin]

I hope those folks picking over police armories stopped by the evidence lockers to check out what was being held for trials that will probably never be heard.

FYI its almost impossible to fully find everything - there is always stuff that can be found - and I bet the evidence lockers would get overlooked by most people

and not just guns - definitely illegal drugs that could be used for possible medical uses and even tools taken off burglars that would be of use for sure

[.45cultist]

As I have said I can not speak for all prisons, jails, federal detention areas just the ones that I have been to. In my area none of them have bars inside they have reinforced steel doors with concrete walls. Only one of them has a chain link fence around it, and that is after you get out of the concrete and steel building. So yes if you can get out of the building it would not be difficult to get out the rest of the way, but getting out of the building with out either some tools and/or outside help would be almost impossible in my opinion.

Now having said that prisoner ingenuity is sometimes nothing short of mind blowing, so what they could come up with I can not say for sure. However the likely hood of having "a couple of hundred men" able to work on any part of it is not going to happen, at most you are going to have maybe twenty. As for the battering ram where are they going to get the ram? The most I have seen in a cell is a sink (light gauge steel), a toilet (also light gauge steel), a bunk(s) (thicker steel but still softer tempered), and maybe a shelf(s) (once more soft metal). So none of these will work as a battering ram, so unless they can come up with some idea that I can not (and as I said their ingenuity can sometimes be mind blowing so possible) so far they have no way out.

Now if we expand this out to the work areas for the most part the basic setups do not change none of the tables and such are really study enough to make a good ram, and most of the areas are designed to not have tools that would be very usable to escape with. However the workshops do have tools that could be useful (more likely more useful tools in the maintenance area then the prisoner workshop) but if you are planing on leaving them would you let them have access to this area? If you are planing on leaving and not coming back would you not want to take at least most of the easy to move tools?

I am not one who thinks that they would not be able to work together, but before we got to the point that they would be left in there cells to die, I do think you would only have the worst of the worst left, all the rest either having been drafted, or released to reduce the number of guards needed. Now yes it is possible that some of these remaining inmates have advanced knowledge that would help they to escape. I am not sure how many of the guards that would be left at this point would really have issues with just locking them up and walking away, as I said I am basing this on there only being the worst of the worst left. So if you only have the murderers, rapists, child molesters and the likes left and likely the ones who are anti-social, I think it is much less likely that the guards will have any attachment to them. It would be entirely possible to have revulsion and/or dislike for them depending on how they have acted during the time that they have been there.

Now lets go on the assumption that they somehow did get a tool that would let them defeat the door (or the wall around the door enough to get the door open) I am guessing that with any hand tool it would take several days at the very lest per door (lets say between two and four day per) the shortest route out of the one that I went to most often was four doors and that was from the holding cells where they placed the inmates that we notified them before hand we would be picking up, from other locations it would double or more the number of doors to get through. So we are looking at between eight and sixteen day for the easy way, now even if it takes half that time (four to eight days) this is assuming that the inmates started right after the guards left, that they did not wait any time. The more time that they waited before they started working (thinking that the guards would be back or whatever) the weaker they would become from lack of food (depending on if/what they had in there cell with them), now they will be able to last for a month or so. But the more hard labor they are doing without food the weaker they will become so tasks will take more time and so on.

Atlanta Federal Correctional is a hard sight with the worst folks.

[ChalkLine]

Looking at Twilight Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa (PRL), the Polish People's Republic, the police force is known as the MO, Milicja Obywatelska, Citizens' Militia,

These guys aren't called up because they are a gendarmerie, or paramilitary police force of the style that is common in Europe (and arguably many US police forces are becoming).

They wear light grey uniforms and in wartime would be outfitted with equipment similar to the army (Polish People's Army Ludowe Wojsko Polskie LWP) although very lightly armed. They wore the Wz. 67 helmet in light grey in combat situations, a grey peaked hat, a grey ushanka fur hat or a blue beret (for some units). Normally they would be only armed, if at all, with the FB P-83 Wanad pistol (in 9x18mmM). I think you'd probably see them with AKMs rather than the Kbk wz. 88 Tantal if in action though.

The elite of the MO was the ZOMO, Zmotoryzowane Odwody Milicji Obywatelskiej, Motorized Reserves of the Citizens' Militia. These guys were a sort of vast SWAT/Riot Troops/Disaster Reaction who had stringent enlistment requirements (180 cm/90 kg) and even more political reliability. It was these characters that did much of the mass repression. They were armed as light infantry (including the BTR-60 in the special platoons). These guys make really nifty "bad guys".

For role playing I generally have the MO depicted as good communists, prone to corruption (like all soviet government) but otherwise fairly normal. I let them have a wide ranging personalities and in fact in my canon the Warsaw Milicja make a famous last stand against NATO forces at the Warszawa Główna railway station during The Siege of Warsaw, the pivotal battle in my campaign's history. They make both good helpers and adversaries.

The ZOMO however were used to keep the population in line and their brutality suppressing protests is legendary. They will be active in rear areas hunting down stragglers - ie: player characters. Worse, they will probably hand prisoners over to their bosses - the feared Ministry of Public Security, Ministerstwo Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego, the SB. The SB are not noted for their humanity.

[WallShadow]

Wasnt there a Challenge Magazine article about a bunch of Russian officers who broke out of a prison they were being held in somewhere in New Jersey?
"A Rock in Troubled Waters" about the Coast Guard base at Cape May, NJ. Not sure where the Russians were being held (Ft. Dix?) but speaking of prisons and prisoners, Northwest of Cape May is a large prison farm--Bayside, near Leesburg/Maurice River. Here is where the select low-risk state inmates grow vegetables and raise livestock for milk and meat, for their own usage and for other operations in the state.
https://www.nj.com/cumberland/2017/07/see_what_happens_in_dairy_that_is_run_by_state_inm .html
I imagine it could have several inmates remaining working there to ensure they have a steady source of food--interesting potential negotiations/interactions between MilGov and the Farm with security patrols traded for steady supply of rations for the Base. Perhaps the PCs might be stationed there as part of their military duty.

[WallShadow]

FYI its almost impossible to fully find everything - there is always stuff that can be found - and I bet the evidence lockers would get overlooked by most people <SNIP> Even most of the destroyed armories were picked over by salvage parties or looters, but there are pockets of police weapons and ammo still remaining in the ruins of police stations.

Speaking of pockets, would officers store firearms (backups guns, etc) in something other than a station gun safe/armory? Say, buried deep in their personal locker wrapped up in a towel or similarly camoflaged? Asking out of severe lack of policy/procedure in real-life law-enforcement operations.

[Legbreaker]

Speaking of pockets, would officers store firearms (backups guns, etc) in something other than a station gun safe/armory? Say, buried deep in their personal locker wrapped up in a towel or similarly camoflaged? Asking out of severe lack of policy/procedure in real-life law-enforcement operations.

Can't speak for elsewhere but it's absolutely never going to happen in Australia!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Can't speak for elsewhere but it's absolutely never going to happen in Australia!
Yeah, some of the police stations in Australia don't even have personal lockers for individual officers. A lot of them don't even have specific storage, everything that needs secure storage would be sent to a regional headquarters or similar large facility (every police station will have at least a gun safe for issued firearms & ammo but not necessarily a purpose built secure storage room let alone any sort of armoury).

[CDAT]

Speaking of pockets, would officers store firearms (backups guns, etc) in something other than a station gun safe/armory? Say, buried deep in their personal locker wrapped up in a towel or similarly camoflaged? Asking out of severe lack of policy/procedure in real-life law-enforcement operations.
If you are talking about at the station, then I can only speak for those I worked for but for the most part I would say no (I say most part as when I was attached to the State Department overseas we put them in our dresser or whatnot when we were not on duty and in our residence, outside the residence we were expected to be armed so they were on us/rifles in locked office or armored vehicle). Now if you are talking about at their residence then I would say depending on location but between almost certain to no way in heck.