Obsolete or Obsolescent?

[Raellus]

I'm fairly certain that we have a thread dedicated to older weapon systems likely to appear on T2K battlefields so I'll try to merge this thread and that when I get home from work.

In the meantime, here's more living proof that armies in need will make due with what they can scrounge. If it ain't broke, it's gonna get used.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32098/ukrainian-troops-are-still-using-this-pre-world-war-i-era-maxim-machine-gun-in-combat

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Given the role they've assigned it, the Maxim is an ideal "tool for the job".
I was going to say that it uses the same 7.62mm round that Soviet/Russian GPMGs use but it would be more correct to say that Soviet/Russian GPMGs still use the same round that the Russian Maxim guns used - so there's no issue with ammo compatibility.

[Vespers War]

Given the role they've assigned it, the Maxim is an ideal "tool for the job".
I was going to say that it uses the same 7.62mm round that Soviet/Russian GPMGs use but it would be more correct to say that Soviet/Russian GPMGs still use the same round that the Russian Maxim guns used - so there's no issue with ammo compatibility.

The Three-Line Cartridge, Model of 1891. It's outlived the Tsars and the Soviet Union.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The Three-Line Cartridge, Model of 1891. It's outlived the Tsars and the Soviet Union.
Which is a mighty fine and noteworthy achievement given that it's an "obsolete" rimmed cartridge!

[pmulcahy11b]

I was shocked a bit when the supposedly obsolete and out of service M44T (a Turkish variant of the M44 SPH, supposedly taken out of Turkish Service in the 1970s) was spotted in use by Turkish forces in 2019 by a news crew filming the Turks wiping out a Kurdish position. I statted out on my Turkish Artillery page of what a modernized M44T might be like.

[Raellus]

I'd guess that it was a Turkish-sponsored militia/paramilitary rather than a Turkish army soldier, but I could very well be wrong.

[madmikechoi]

I was shocked a bit when the supposedly obsolete and out of service M44T (a Turkish variant of the M44 SPH, supposedly taken out of Turkish Service in the 1970s) was spotted in use by Turkish forces in 2019 by a news crew filming the Turks wiping out a Kurdish position. I statted out on my Turkish Artillery page of what a modernized M44T might be like.

It's a classic case of the Turks wanting M109s but not paying for them so they did the next best thing- re-engined and regunning their old SP howitzers. So a 39 cal tube, new turret elevation/traverse, going w/ a German diesel and new trannies, etc etc. After all that work I wonder if just buying M109A2/A3s from Sugar would have been cheaper but the concept dated back from the mid 80s, so.....

Right now the Turks are going full bore w/ their homegrown copy of the Korean K9 realizing that nowdays you need that longer barrel especially when nobody in the West seems to be interested in building ICM rounds any more.

Mad Mike

[madmikechoi]

I'm fairly certain that we have a thread dedicated to older weapon systems likely to appear on T2K battlefields so I'll try to merge this thread and that when I get home from work.

In the meantime, here's more living proof that armies in need will make due with what they can scrounge. If it ain't broke, it's gonna get used.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32098/ukrainian-troops-are-still-using-this-pre-world-war-i-era-maxim-machine-gun-in-combat

Also in that vidya posted on youtube are a bunch of jokers showing off how they machined the propellent/fin assembly of a RPG-7/PG-7 round and mated to what seems like an 82mm HE mortar round. That might be interesting to fire although I wonder if they can get enough range before the round arms... or not; Soviet/Russian arms tries to be simple as possible even at the expense of safety/comfort :D

Mad Mike

[CDAT]

Also in that vidya posted on youtube are a bunch of jokers showing off how they machined the propellent/fin assembly of a RPG-7/PG-7 round and mated to what seems like an 82mm HE mortar round. That might be interesting to fire although I wonder if they can get enough range before the round arms... or not; Soviet/Russian arms tries to be simple as possible even at the expense of safety/comfort :D

Mad Mike

I can answer that, NO, the RPG-7 is armed all the time. All it has is a cardboard safety covering the striker, now having said that it would most likely not go off from the setback of a mortar launch, as different type of fuse.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The RPG-7 rounds uses a piezo-electric fuse, meaning it needs sufficient crush pressure to activate it but I'm pretty sure that what madmikechoi was referring to was the fuse of the alternate warhead in the video (in this particular case, it appears to be an 82mm mortar shell).
From the very little I understand of the video, they appear to be showing a homemade munition that was fired against them, to the camera crew (as opposed to them making it themselves). It consists of what appears to be the normal RPG-7 propellant/fin body with an adaptor to allow a mortar round to be mated to it (making some kind of direct fire mortar weapon out of the RPG launcher).

[copeab]

Worth noting that the WWII M1 grenade adaptor, which could be fitted to a hand grenade and then fired like a rifle grenade, could also be used with 60mm mortar shells. Range was greatly reduced but effect was much greater.

[Legbreaker]

Worth noting that the WWII M1 grenade adaptor, which could be fitted to a hand grenade and then fired like a rifle grenade, could also be used with 60mm mortar shells. Range was greatly reduced but effect was much greater.

I've fired them! :p
Grenades only though. :(

[pmulcahy11b]

...especially when nobody in the West seems to be interested in building ICM rounds any more.

Mad Mike

ICM and cluster munitions are about a heartbeat away from being declared illegal weapons, because of the large number of live but unexploded bomblets they leave laying around in the burst area, to be found later by civilians or having to be cleared later by EOD.

[Raellus]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/wwi-helmet-better-blast-protection-one-us-study-203600687.html

I wonder if we'll see a raised ridge along the crest of new model helmets.

Regardless, I'm sure that the modern helmet offers far superior ballistic protection.

[Olefin]

ICM and cluster munitions are about a heartbeat away from being declared illegal weapons, because of the large number of live but unexploded bomblets they leave laying around in the burst area, to be found later by civilians or having to be cleared later by EOD.

Not as long as the Chinese and North Korean armies along with the Iranians keep the idea of mass human wave infantry attacks alive as part of their training of their armies. Its either cluster munitions and land mines or you have to use nukes to stop attacks like that on the scale they have done in the past.

[Raellus]

Not as long as the Chinese and North Korean armies along with the Iranians keep the idea of mass human wave infantry attacks alive as part of their training of their armies. Its either cluster munitions and land mines or you have to use nukes to stop attacks like that on the scale they have done in the past.

You don't need any of the above to stop mass human wave infantry. Intelligent use of obstacles (eg barbed wire), automatic weapons, and tube/rocket artillery (especially airburst rounds) can get the job done. Sure, the systems you mention can also be effective, if used probably, but think about how effective the trenches of WWI were at stopping infantry attacks, and that was before landmines saw common, large-scale usage.

I don't think you'd want to use tac-nukes to stop mass human wave infantry attacks, mostly because you can't really do so without harming your own troops. If you can hit troop assembly areas well behind the front lines, then maybe it'd be worth considering but that's about it.

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