Shotgun Questions

[WussyDan]

Hey all, looking at an upcoming T2k v2.2 game soon, and I can't make heads or tails of shotgun (buckshot) rules. The idea of treating shot as a 10rd burst at medium range is fine, but I have no idea what the "5x10" under rate of fire in the weapon entries is trying to tell me. Compounding factors, the GM is looking at using a lot of Paul Mulcahy's (excellent) homebrew stuff, but that's further confused me with regard to buckshot.

For instance, a generic PA shotgun firing shot at medium range in standard 2.2 rules has "RoF 5x10" and "Dam 1" listed...which I assume is saying a 10rd burst with each hit doing 1d6 damage, but what is the "5x" indicating? Then taking that same shotgun from Paul's rules, the RoF is PA regardless of range, but then has damage listed as either "d6x16" or "2d6x4" for medium range. I'm assuming that's just a different way of representing shot spread, but I'm not sure how to square the rules, or what it's telling me.

Any advice would be welcome, especially from Paul himself if he's so inclined.

[pmulcahy11b]

The buckshot rules are based on 00 buckshot. Each pellet does 1d6 damage. So, if you see "2d6" for buckshot damage, 2d6 pellets hit targets, each of which do 1d6 damage. Shotguns using buckshot are to an extent area weapons; if your targets are at medium range, the number of pellets indicated may hit more than one target, and are treated as automatic weapons fire for this purpose. At short range, all the pellets hit one target (messy!). One my Shotgun Ammo page

http://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/shotgun_shells.htm

I have rules for 0 buckshot, different chokes, and IIRC, other shotgun ammo types.

[WussyDan]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.

[Legbreaker]

...and here's the rest of us trying desperately not to look stupid by asking exactly the same questions! :D

[Lurken]

...and here's the rest of us trying desperately not to look stupid by asking exactly the same questions! :D

Damn true.

[pmulcahy11b]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.
1d6-damage pellets x16 are fired from the barrel. Rtc.

[swaghauler]

Sorry, not trying to be dense, but I'm still not clear on what the "x16" or "x4" is telling me in your rules, nor the "5x" in the standard rules.

If you are looking at the shotguns' MEDIUM RANGE BUCKSHOT ROF, you are looking at the NUMBER OF SHOTS/ACTIONS PER ROUND (the 1st #) multiplied by the number of D6s accounted for by the 00 PELLET LOADING (the 2nd #). This is the number of To Hit rolls you will have at medium range using a 00 Buckshot loading in a single combat round.

My issue with the 10D6 rating is that most 00 buckshot loadings are 9-pellet or 8-pellet loads for standard pressure loadings and 12-pellet loadings for 2.75" Magnum Loadings. 3" Magnum loads run up to 15 pellets and 3.5" hulls will have up to 18 pellets in them (the same as 10 gauge loads).

Just a word of warning about the RAW Initiative/Actions system. You will need DOZENS of D20s and drive yourself crazy running the RAW rules where a person can fire ALL FIVE shots (OR EVEN FIVE BURSTS) at once during their turn. Also, Initiative 6 and 5 PCs will be able to wipe out ENTIRE SQUADS on their turns using Burst Fire.
I modified the RAW Initiative to help both issues. On my lightly modified RAW Initiative, I actually give my players a number of "chips" equal to their INITIATIVE SCORE. I use poker chips but you can use any marker (pennies, checkers pieces, paper chits, etc...). I then have each participant in a firefight surrender one chip on EACH PHASE [of the 6 Phases] and fire ONE BURST or ONE SHOT (I allow semi's two shots) in each PHASE. In essence, I treat each of the 6 Phases as a "1-second mini round." By having the fire broken down by phase, it...

1) Reduces the number of To Hit dice you need for an attack.
2) It reduces the "lethality" of Initiative 6 PCs by interspersing their shots among the rest of the combatants in a fight.
3) It helps hold the interest of the players because each PC is taking an action on EACH PHASE once their Initiative Point (their 1 to 6 score) is reached.
4) It helps the GM keep count of time IF you make every COMBAT ROUND 6 seconds long (instead of 5 seconds) and count each INITIATIVE STEP as 1 second's worth of activity. This is particularly good for the 5-second delays of Frag Grenades or explosive-delay timers.

If you want more information on my take on fire rates, just reference Admiral Lee's thread "Thought's on Initiative," There are a number of good options from the Forum Members posted there.

[swaghauler]

Here are some real-world facts about shotguns.

Rates of Fire:

The typical rate of fire for a semiautomatic is between 3 tenths of a second and half of a second per round fired based on the shooter's skill. The rate of fire for a pump-action shotgun will vary between 3/4 of a second to 1.5 seconds per shot based on the shooter's skill. An experienced pump gun shooter could fire ONE SHOT PER 1-second INITIATIVE PHASE. An "unskilled or unfamiliar" pump shooter will often have to spend a 1-second Initiative Phase running the pump to chamber a new round. Bolt Action Shotgunners will spend 2 seconds running a bolt shotgun (especially due to the length of the cartridge/hull they are cycling (2.75" to 3").

The rate of fire for Full Auto Shotguns varies quite a bit. The Saiga has a cyclic rate of fire around 600 rounds a minute. The latest generation of AA12 has a rate of fire of from 320 to 350 rounds per minute based on the power of the load in question. The experimental H&K CAW (close assault weapon) had a listed rate of fire with 00 Buck of 375 rounds per minute. The USAS-12 has a rate of fire between 400 and 450 rounds per minute.

The Patterning of Shotguns:

Most larger bores are patterned at between 30 and 40 yards (or meters) and .410 Bores are patterned at between 20 and 25 yards (or meters). The most common pattern is a 30" circle at these distances. Chokes constrict the bore in order to reduce the pattern size; which increases pattern density (the number of pellets in the circle) and therefore, increases the EFFECTIVE RANGE of that load.
Most Buckshot loads will spread about 1" for every yard (or meter) traveled. This means that at 25 meters, the pattern of 00 Buck will be about 2 feet across. Tactical Buckshot (which is designed to hold a tighter pattern) will pattern much tighter and could range from 12" to 18" in diameter at 25 meters. The typical width of a grown man varies between 16" and 22" across. At 100 yards, a typical 00 buck loading will occupy a pattern 100" across. There will be A FOOT OR MORE between each pellet. Needless to say, accuracy will be bad!

Steel Shot is much maligned because it is less dense (and therefore lighter by volume) than lead. This leads to shorter ranges, less pellet density, and less lethal effect (based on momentum) than lead shot.

Rifled Slugs are actually designed for SMOOTH-BORE BARRELS and Sabots are specifically designed for RIFLED BARRELS (which help them shed their sabots).

Shotgun Sights:

The bead sight is preferred by some shooters. It allows you to lead a target while still being able to see it WHILE LEADING IT. I give shotguns (and cannon with AA sights) the ability to NEGATE ONE LEVEL OF DIFFICULTY SHIFT IMPOSED BY TARGET MOVEMENT. This doesn't mean the shooter has it one level of difficulty easier to hit a target; the shooter simply gets to reduce any MOVEMENT BASED PENALTIES by one difficulty level.

Increased Reciever Size in Repeating Shotguns:

Repeating shotguns MUST have enough room in their receivers to accommodate the shell in addition to the components used to feed shells. A Single-Barreled or Double-Barreled Shotgun doesn't need this extra space in the receiver. This means that a Single-Barreled or Double-Barreled Shotgun will have a 2" to 3" LONGER barrel for the same overall length as a Repeating Shotgun. Longer barrels have long kept hunting "Doubles" competitive with "repeaters."

Those are just some common facts about shotguns.

[Legbreaker]

Have to also remember the limited magazine size of shotguns. The HK CAW we all know and love for example has only a 10 round box - two bursts maximum using RAW before running dry and having a horrific level of recoil should you wish to do that. Even the strongest character will have trouble keeping even a semblance of control so chances are only a handful of pellets will hit anything useful despite something like 100 flying through the air.

So, once you apply the necessary modifiers to the burst roll, you're already dropping most of the dice just from the recoil, more for being medium range, perhaps another due to cover, maybe another for movement (more if both are moving) - probably only require 2d20 (using 2.2 rules) to cover all the possible hits (and roll again of course for danger area) from emptying the HK CAW.

I suppose a good question to ask is do the reduced dice apply to the number of shells fired, or pellets in the air? I'm thinking the former.

[WussyDan]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three? All shotguns have "5x" listed regardless of action, or even magazine size, especially in the case of break action guns. Is this just a printing error, or am I misunderstanding something?

This may have something to do with my unfamiliarity with ballistics, but for Paul's rules, if I'm following correctly, most times the light shot loading (d6x16) is going to do more damage at short range than the heavier load (2d6x4). Is this intentional? Average-ish damage is 48 and 24, respectively, for all pellets hitting one target.

[Legbreaker]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.
Only unasked questions are stupid.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three?
Correct.
This may have something to do with my unfamiliarity with ballistics, but for Paul's rules, if I'm following correctly, most times the light shot loading (d6x16) is going to do more damage at short range than the heavier load (2d6x4). Is this intentional? Average-ish damage is 48 and 24, respectively, for all pellets hitting one target.

Yes, that would be about right. You've got a lot more projectiles hitting with the lighter shot. Even if they're all only inflicting paper cuts they're going to add up.
Also need to remember that even the lightest of cover or body armour is going to stop them (except for potential blunt trauma). My usual load when hunting with a shotgun is 4 shot - a medium sort of load in my opinion (others may well disagree). The damage I've seen that do to flesh at near point blank range is mind blowing. 00 or even solid slugs up close in my experience don't inflict such a devastating wound (still VERY nasty though), but certainly increase the effective range and retain hitting power further away than the lighter loads.

[Olefin]

I forgot but does the game or anything Paul has show what the effect is on damage and spread for a sawed off shotgun versus the standard one? The absence of choke and the shortened barrel contribute to a wider spread of shot than that of a choked full length gun.

So how does the game take that into effect? My character carried a double barreled lupara that my GM ruled was much deadlier at short range than the standard shotgun due to wider spread of shot but not sure if that was a home made rule or if it was per game rules.

[pmulcahy11b]

I forgot but does the game or anything Paul has show what the effect is on damage and spread for a sawed off shotgun versus the standard one? The absence of choke and the shortened barrel contribute to a wider spread of shot than that of a choked full length gun.

So how does the game take that into effect? My character carried a double barreled lupara that my GM ruled was much deadlier at short range than the standard shotgun due to wider spread of shot but not sure if that was a home made rule or if it was per game rules.

As stated below, I have some rules on different chokes on my Shotgun Ammo page.

[Vespers War]

My issue with the 10D6 rating is that most 00 buckshot loadings are 9-pellet or 8-pellet loads for standard pressure loadings and 12-pellet loadings for 2.75" Magnum Loadings. 3" Magnum loads run up to 15 pellets and 3.5" hulls will have up to 18 pellets in them (the same as 10 gauge loads).

I don't have an issue with this because at close range, they're treated as a single round, while at medium range they're immediately reduced to 7 dice. If you really wanted to, you could treat 12 and 15 pellet loadings as 15-shot bursts (which would get reduced to 10 at medium range) and 18 pellet loadings as 20-shot bursts (reduced to 14 at medium range). All of that's using the Dice Lost Per Range Band Beyond Short on page 203 of v2.2.


Just a word of warning about the RAW Initiative/Actions system. You will need DOZENS of D20s and drive yourself crazy running the RAW rules where a person can fire ALL FIVE shots (OR EVEN FIVE BURSTS) at once during their turn. Also, Initiative 6 and 5 PCs will be able to wipe out ENTIRE SQUADS on their turns using Burst Fire.
Characters doing an ammo dump with a shotgun are going to hit a ton of penalties and not much else. If someone with STR 10 fires a Semiautomatic Shotgun all five times in a single fire action, they've got 5 points of recoil penalty. Each of their bursts is reduced from 10D20 to 7D20 by range, and to -3D20 by recoil penalty ("each shot is treated as a 10-round burst using the automatic fire rules, including the reduction of dice rolled for hits for recoil and range"). At best, they can fire three shots each at 7D20, since 4 shots would reduce each shot to 3d20. Someone with a more average STR 6 can fire two shots at 7D20 or three shots each at 1D20. You'd need someone with STR 12 (roll 12 on 2d6 and use two Secondary Skills on Weight Lifting) to be able to fire all five shots at 1d20 per shot. For all of these, the first shot might be Difficult (at skill level) if an Aim action was previously taken; all other shots will be Formidable (1/2 skill level).

All of the shotguns (other than the CAW) in Infantry Weapons are even worse, because they're Recoil 4 or 5 instead of the 3 of the Semiautomatic in the core rules. You might get off two shots in a fire action with those without eliminating all of the dice through range and recoil penalties.

[swaghauler]

Since ya'll are being very accommodating, I'm going to continue being dense, sorry.

Regarding the number of shots being fired per round, don't pump actions limit the number of shots/round to three? All shotguns have "5x" listed regardless of action, or even magazine size, especially in the case of break action guns. Is this just a printing error, or am I misunderstanding something?



As Leg already pointed out, you are correct about the pump's RAW rate of fire.
The 5 X 10 on the pump-action shotgun card IS WRONG. It is just one of many errors on the weapons cards. Other errors include...

1) The generic .38 Snubnosed Revolver entry shows a S&W Bodyguard but lists the cylinder as holding 6 rounds. ALL of the J-Frame Smiths (the Chief's Special, the Bodyguard, the Centennial) are 5 round revolvers. The ONE 6-shot .38 Special snubnosed revolver in production during the '90s was the Colt Detective Special (weighing 0.6kg too). The only 6-shot S&Ws on this frame size were in .32 S&W Long chamberings.

2) The M1911A1 has the 10mm listed at 6 rounds in the magazine when .40 Caliber is SMALLER than .45 Caliber in diameter. Most 10mm Autos hold 8 rounds in a standard magazine (7-round in .45). The entry also completely ignores the other major caliber that sold 3 TIMES as many guns the 10mm Auto... The .38 SUPER chambering. This is essentially a "hopped up" 9mm Largo round (with 8 rounds in the mag) that Colt has been building since the 1920s. It was HUGELY POPULAR with IDPA shooters in the '90s because it made "Major Power" with a high magazine capacity (for run & gun events).

3) The generic .22LR Pistol entry shows a Ruger MK II as the typical size/type but then lists 6 rounds for the magazine capacity. Both the Ruger and its competitors The Browning Buckmark, and the Savage pistol ALL hold 10 rounds in the magazine.

4) They give the ROF of the M231 as 5 when a real-world M231 has a cyclic rate of fire in excess of 1200rpm (which would be a ROF of 10).

5) The Scorpion pistol has a cyclic rate of 950rpm but lists a ROF of 5.

6) The RPK has a ROF of 10 but a real-world cyclic rate of 600rpm.

7) The RPK-74 has a ROF of 10 but a real-world cyclic rate of 600rpm.

As you can see, the pump shotgun isn't the only weapon stat that needs "editing."

[swaghauler]

I don't have an issue with this because at close range, they're treated as a single round, while at medium range they're immediately reduced to 7 dice. If you really wanted to, you could treat 12 and 15 pellet loadings as 15-shot bursts (which would get reduced to 10 at medium range) and 18 pellet loadings as 20-shot bursts (reduced to 14 at medium range). All of that's using the Dice Lost Per Range Band Beyond Short on page 203 of v2.2.



Characters doing an ammo dump with a shotgun are going to hit a ton of penalties and not much else. If someone with STR 10 fires a Semiautomatic Shotgun all five times in a single fire action, they've got 5 points of recoil penalty. Each of their bursts is reduced from 10D20 to 7D20 by range, and to -3D20 by recoil penalty ("each shot is treated as a 10-round burst using the automatic fire rules, including the reduction of dice rolled for hits for recoil and range"). At best, they can fire three shots each at 7D20, since 4 shots would reduce each shot to 3d20. Someone with a more average STR 6 can fire two shots at 7D20 or three shots each at 1D20. You'd need someone with STR 12 (roll 12 on 2d6 and use two Secondary Skills on Weight Lifting) to be able to fire all five shots at 1d20 per shot. For all of these, the first shot might be Difficult (at skill level) if an Aim action was previously taken; all other shots will be Formidable (1/2 skill level).

All of the shotguns (other than the CAW) in Infantry Weapons are even worse, because they're Recoil 4 or 5 instead of the 3 of the Semiautomatic in the core rules. You might get off two shots in a fire action with those without eliminating all of the dice through range and recoil penalties.

All of which is still very complex for new players. I have a modified system for shotguns that I will have to post when I get time. I think at least some of the people on the forum will find it easier to use than the RAW system. I don't think the original DEVs understood how shot spread/patterning and pellet density affects the efficiency of shotguns. Their "spread model" (for stray rounds) is simply ridiculous too. At 100 meters a shot payload will only be about 3 meters across (some loads only 2 meters).

[Legbreaker]

Other errors include...


This is why I always refer to Paul's stats whenever possible rather than the books.

[Olefin]

This is why I always refer to Paul's stats whenever possible rather than the books.

Completely agree - thats why when I added animals to my updated East Africa sourcebook they came straight from material that Paul had published

[Milano]

I don't know if it's too cumbersome but I will tell yeall how I deal with it and you can use it as such. I believe a typical 12 ga shotgun, with a Modified Choke will have a 1 inch pattern for every yard of range, and all shotguns have a range of 10, unless they're sawed off dramatically or exceptionally long. Instead of treating a shotgun blast as full auto fire I went about it statistically, an excerpt..

"Statistically an average adult male has 1,529 square inches of surface area when facing a shooter. Given that at 80 meters, thus the 80 inch circle, is in actuality 5,026 square inches you can see that the number of potential hits are governed by luck, not skill."

I only worked out the statistics for 12, 15, and 18 pellets but.. At 80 yards the pattern is 5,026 square inches.

At 10 yards all 12 pellets hit.

At 20 yards the pattern is 314 square inches. 2d6-1 hits but they get a +1 to hit.

At 40 yards its a 1,256 sq in pattern and a +2 to hit. But only 2d4-1 pellets hit.

At 80 yards a 12 pellet pattern gets a +3 bonus to hit but the ref has to roll 2d4-4 to get the number of actual hits.
As such, at 80 yards, to get hit with 1 pellet has a 62% chance. 2 is 19%. 3 is 13% 4 is 6%.

I will attach my shotgun rules to flesh it out but that is the jist of it

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You know, in terms of gameplay, I think this is great.
It appears that it would really speed up proceedings and it has a sturdy framework so if you make a few adjustments for things such as different types of shot etc. etc. it seems that it won't mess things up. Plus it's pretty damned simple without being simplistic so even the least "gunhead" person should be able to work it out and it still gives some feel for the unique qualities of shot shells as ammunition.
I don't know if it's too cumbersome but I will tell yeall how I deal with it and you can use it as such. I believe a typical 12 ga shotgun, with a Modified Choke will have a 1 inch pattern for every yard of range, and all shotguns have a range of 10, unless they're sawed off dramatically or exceptionally long. Instead of treating a shotgun blast as full auto fire I went about it statistically, an excerpt..

"Statistically an average adult male has 1,529 square inches of surface area when facing a shooter. Given that at 80 meters, thus the 80 inch circle, is in actuality 5,026 square inches you can see that the number of potential hits are governed by luck, not skill."

I only worked out the statistics for 12, 15, and 18 pellets but.. At 80 yards the pattern is 5,026 square inches.

At 10 yards all 12 pellets hit.

At 20 yards the pattern is 314 square inches. 2d6-1 hits but they get a +1 to hit.

At 40 yards its a 1,256 sq in pattern and a +2 to hit. But only 2d4-1 pellets hit.

At 80 yards a 12 pellet pattern gets a +3 bonus to hit but the ref has to roll 2d4-4 to get the number of actual hits.
As such, at 80 yards, to get hit with 1 pellet has a 62% chance. 2 is 19%. 3 is 13% 4 is 6%.

I will attach my shotgun rules to flesh it out but that is the jist of it

[Legbreaker]

You know, in terms of gameplay, I think this is great.

Yeah, but inches in a game that uses metric?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Ultimately, those measurement units aren't as important as the percentile values derived from them. 80 yards is near enough to 80 metres etc. etc. for the purpose of gameplay that I'm not going to worry about it :D

[Legbreaker]

Yes, but IMPERIAL?
Ewwwwwww!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Yes, but IMPERIAL?
Ewwwwwww!

I know right, it's like, so old school right? Like, it's just like, so positively ancient!

:D
There wasn't a smiley with a big enough grin so I'll just have to use that one again... :D

[swaghauler]

Yes, but IMPERIAL?
Ewwwwwww!

Says the man from the country which STILL has the word "Royal" in all of its Armed Forces!:p

[swaghauler]

Ultimately, those measurement units aren't as important as the percentile values derived from them. 80 yards is near enough to 80 metres etc. etc. for the purpose of gameplay that I'm not going to worry about it :D

This is exactly it. All you really need to worry about is how WIDE the pattern is at a given range. Most common Buckshot is going to be expanding at a 1" spread per meter traveled. Tactical Buckshot is going to average about 0.75" per meter traveled and cheap Buckshot (like the clear Fiocchi 00 that doesn't even put a shot wad between the payload and the powder) will hit about 1.5" per meter traveled. The reason you read about the effective range of Buckshot being between 25 and 30 meters is this is the typical range where EVERY PELLET will still be on a human silhouette target. In Police/Defense circles, liability is a major risk and every pellet MUST be accounted for. In Military circles, however, the same liability concerns do not exist. Thus, the buckshot loading can be used at greater ranges as long as you are willing to accept the "collateral damage" and the significantly reduced performance of the load.

Like Milano, I too have the Short Range for 00 Buck in an 18" Cylinder Bore shotgun set at 10 meters for Buckshot (actually all shot) and 20 meters for Rifled Slugs. This range breaks down like this for me...

00 Buck (9 pellet Load):

-Short Range (10 meters): Roll 1D20 with an AVERAGE (Skill X 1) chance to hit and 9D6 Damage on that hit. The typical pattern will be a 6" to 10" circle meaning only one location should be hit under my house rules.

-Medium Range (11 to 20 meters): Roll 9D20's with an AVERAGE (Skill X 1) chance to hit and each hit doing 1D6 Damage. The Location roll is either upper torso (1D6) or lower torso (1D6+4) for all hits as the pattern is only a 20" circle which is as wide as a typical human and less than half as tall as a typical human.

-Long Range (21 to 40 meters): At this range, the pattern is getting wider than a human's width and pellet density is dropping fast. The shooter will lose some pellets from the pattern. The base chance to hit will be a DIFFICULT Test (Skill X 0.5) on a snap shot and an AVERAGE Test (Skill X 1) on an aimed shot. Tactical 00 Buck will have the shooter rolling 5D20 to hit while regular Buck will be rolling 4D20 to hit at this range. All rounds that hit will do 1D6 Damage and hits can occur anywhere on the body.

-Extreme Range (41 to 80 meters): At this range, the pattern will be wider than most humans are tall and shot density will be bottoming out. The chance to hit will be FORMIDABLE (Skill X 0.25) on a snap shot and DIFFICULT (Skill X 0.5) on an aimed shot. BOTH Tactical and regular buckshot will be rolling 2D20s to hit with. The Damage will still be 1D6 per hit.

-Maximum Range (81 to 160 meters): At this range, the pattern will be between 2 METERS and 4 METERS wide (actually 80" and 160"). Hitting anything will require an IMPOSSIBLE Test (Skill X 0.1) on a snap shot and a FORMIDABLE Test (Skill X 0.25) on an aimed shot. The shooter will be rolling 1D20 to hit for 1D6 in Damage on a hit.

I have both chokes and barrel length simply add to the Base Range above as they both contribute to keeping the pattern tight for a longer distance from the bore.

Cylinder Bore: This is the default bore with no constriction and a 30% pellet density at 40 yards.

Improved Cylinder: This choke setting has 0.0010" of constriction and a pellet density of 40% at 40 yards. I add +1 meters to Range for Buckshot and +2 meters for Rifled Slugs (but not Sabots).

Modified Cylinder: This choke has 0.20" of bore constriction and a pellet density of 50% at 40 yards. I add +3 meters to Range for Buckshot but nothing for Slugs at the constriction is beginning to affect their safe firing.

Full Choke: This choke is as tight as you get in CONVENTIONAL MANUFACTURER'S choke tube systems. You will have to buy custom for a deeper choke (the are Extra-Full and Extra-Extra-Full Turkey chokes out there). It has a bore constriction of 0.35" and provides a pellet density of 70% at 40 yards. Full choke bores can be dangerous to shoot Slugs from. The constriction is so great that backpressure can build up behind the slug and rupture the barrel. I'd call for a roll ABOVE the weapon's Wear Value on 1D10 when shooting Slugs from a Full Choke. A 1D10 roll resulting in a number BELOW the Wear Value results in a barrel explosion. I give a bonus of +5 meters to Range for Buckshot and -2 meters for Slugs and Sabots.

Rifled Choke Tubes: These are primarily used to shoot SABOTS out of smoothbore shotguns. Any Shot (either Buck or Bird) fired from a rifled choke will be scattered by centrifugal force from the imparted spin. It has been proven in tests that shot density at 40 yards is 10% OR LESS. I give this choke a -5 meters for Buckshot and a +5 meters for Sabots. Rifled Slugs gain +2 meters to Range as well.

Damages Based on Shot Sizes:

I list the following Buckshot sizes by Damage AND the number of pellets needed to equal a 1D20 roll To Hit (and for Damage). Please note that I use all of the Polyhedral Dice in my house rules.

0000 Buck (.380 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D8
000 Buck (.36 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D6+1
00 Buck (.33 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D6
0 Buck (.32 diameter): One To Hit die per pellet. Damage: 1D5
#1 Buck (.30 diameter): One To Hit die per 2 pellets loaded. -1 meter to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 2 pellets).
#2 Buck (.27 diameter): One To Hit die per 3 pellets loaded. -1 meter to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 3 pellets)
#3 Buck (.25 diameter): One To Hit die per 4 pellets loaded. -2 meters to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 4 pellets)
#4 Buck (.23 diameter): One To Hit die per 5 pellets loaded. -2 meters to Base Range. Damage: 1D6 per Hit Die (per 5 pellets)

Once you have determined the number of To Hit Dice you have in a given load; You now have that many DAMAGE DICE at Short Range (which is an AVERAGE Skill test) but roll only a single 1D20 To hit (as the Shot all hits one location). You Roll the To Hit Dice (with no dice losses) at Medium Range (which is an AVERAGE test as well). You then roll HALF of your To Hit Dice at Long Range (which is a DIFFICULT test) and ONE QUARTER your To Hit Dice at Extreme Range (which is a FORMIDABLE test). I round up or down based on the load (tactical or premium loads versus cheap Buckshot)
I round down on the initial To Hit Dice and round up for the number of dice remaining at each range band for the multiple pellet per To Hit loadings.

This is just a "screenshot" of my rules on shotguns.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Says the man from the country which STILL has the word "Royal" in all of its Armed Forces!:p
:eek: Yeah but but but, the US military uses metric too! :p
An' my dad's bigger 'an yours an' he'll beat you up! :smashfrea

:D

[swaghauler]

:eek: Yeah but but but, the US military uses metric too! :p
An' my dad's bigger 'an yours an' he'll beat you up! :smashfrea

:D

LOL! I think the Navy still uses yards and feet. The squids always were slow on the uptake.

[swaghauler]

Chris from Lucky Gunner ammo just uploaded a video on Buckshot that I think is relevant to the conversation.

https://youtu.be/3haq5BFh7qs




Swag

[WallShadow]

Swaghauler:
I noted that you included the spectrum of chokes, but charging out of obscurity (my copy of the reproduction of the 1940 Stoeger Arms Catalogue, aka "the Shooter's Bible") are two more muzzle treatments a Cutts Compensator (yes, for a shotgun!) and a shot spreader. The Cutts compensator was popular in the 30s and was original equipment on Thompson Submachine Guns. It acted like an attached Mag-na-port treatment to help keep the muzzle-rise from, well, rising. The shot spreader looks sort of like a funnel that's flattened on two sides which are positioned top and bottom. The shot apparently is allowed to spread laterally but not in the vertical plane.

[pmulcahy11b]

Swaghauler:
I noted that you included the spectrum of chokes, but charging out of obscurity (my copy of the reproduction of the 1940 Stoeger Arms Catalogue, aka "the Shooter's Bible") are two more muzzle treatments a Cutts Compensator (yes, for a shotgun!) and a shot spreader. The Cutts compensator was popular in the 30s and was original equipment on Thompson Submachine Guns. It acted like an attached Mag-na-port treatment to help keep the muzzle-rise from, well, rising. The shot spreader looks sort of like a funnel that's flattened on two sides which are positioned top and bottom. The shot apparently is allowed to spread laterally but not in the vertical plane.

I thought I put chokes and muzzle devices on my Shotgun Ammo page
https://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/shotgun_shells.htm
But I seem to have forgotten to do that. Another thing to fix...

But generally, muzzle brakes have to be designed for a shotgun to allow them to fire buckshot through the muzzle brake without destroying it (or worse, causing a burst barrel). Did they make a Cutts Compensator for shotguns?

[Vespers War]

I thought I put chokes and muzzle devices on my Shotgun Ammo page
https://www.pmulcahy.com/ammunition/shotgun_shells.htm
But I seem to have forgotten to do that. Another thing to fix...

But generally, muzzle brakes have to be designed for a shotgun to allow them to fire buckshot through the muzzle brake without destroying it (or worse, causing a burst barrel). Did they make a Cutts Compensator for shotguns?

Lyman made them in both steel and aluminum. They claimed a 35% reduction in recoil for light (Trap or Skeet) loads and 46% for high-velocity loads. It was recommended that aluminum not be used with high-velocity hunting loads. The pamphlet I've seen mentions the Remington 11-48 being new, so late 1940s or very early 1950s, since that shotgun was introduced in '49.

[swaghauler]

Lucky Gunner Ammo just uploaded part 2 of their Buckshot series.

https://youtu.be/Jf4i8gRTsJs


Swag

[swaghauler]

Swaghauler:
I noted that you included the spectrum of chokes, but charging out of obscurity (my copy of the reproduction of the 1940 Stoeger Arms Catalogue, aka "the Shooter's Bible") are two more muzzle treatments a Cutts Compensator (yes, for a shotgun!) and a shot spreader. The Cutts compensator was popular in the 30s and was original equipment on Thompson Submachine Guns. It acted like an attached Mag-na-port treatment to help keep the muzzle-rise from, well, rising. The shot spreader looks sort of like a funnel that's flattened on two sides which are positioned top and bottom. The shot apparently is allowed to spread laterally but not in the vertical plane.

I have only posted a quick look at my rules if you will.

I have Barrel Length, Choke, Sights, and other modifications like Extended Forcing Cones and Match-Grade Barrels all affect the weapon's BASE RANGE. This BASE RANGE can also be modified by the shotshell used, but the BASE RANGE is the weapon's game range.

Other modifications like Muzzle Brakes, Porting, Adjustable Stocks, and Customizing a gun's point of balance/swing (common in those expensive custom Doubles) affect the weapons RECOIL and its WEAPON SPEED.

You kind of "design" your shotgun in my system by starting with Barrel Length. You then pick your weapon's Sights and add in any range bonus for them. You then determine such features as Porting, Customizable Stocks, Action Tunning, and any other special features. These can all change the BASE RANGE, RECOIL, and WEAPON SPEED accordingly. Finally, you select your Choke for those guns which can use screw-in or screw-on chokes and adjust your BASE RANGE accordingly. A final "modification" to RECOIL and BASE RANGE comes from the ammunition you use.

IF you look at my posting for the 00 Buck loading, you will see that at MEDIUM RANGE its chance to hit is AVERAGE (the same as for SHORT RANGE). So I use the HIT PROBABILITY, RANGE MODIFICATION, TO HIT BONUSES (mostly seen in Birdshot), and DICE REDUCTION to differentiate types of chokes and loads.

With the above parameters in mind, I give the Shot Spreader (which I have included in my rules) a REDUCTION of -2m in BASE RANGE. This is due to the fact that the Buckshot pattern is squeezed into a fan-shaped blast. This widens the pattern (creating "misses" earlier in the Buckshot's flight). I also give the user a BONUS of 1 on their To Hit roll at MEDIUM RANGE. This is because, at that Range, the Pattern Density is NOT reduced, but rather increased as its shape is changed. The fan-shaped pattern gives a better To Hit Probability even as it widens the shot's pattern (thereby reducing its Range). This bonus is retained at LONG RANGE but lost at EXTREME RANGE (where pellet density is extremely low). So, while you are shortening the range by using the Spreader, it is also giving you a bonus To Hit at half the Ranges you will shoot at.

[swaghauler]

I'll try to find the time to post my FULL RULES for shotguns. You may find them interesting (or not). At least you'll option of deciding for yourself.