Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Jason Weiser]

Well, we have a date, and some details!

From the official FLP Newsletter!

Twilight: 2000 Coming To Kickstarter on August 12
Official Newsletter for Twilight: 2000 Fourth Edition

Hello! This is the third official newsletter for the new edition of the Twilight: 2000 tabletop RPG by Free League Publishing and Game Designers' Workshop. I'm Tomas Härenstam, lead designer and co-founder of Free League.

Today we have an important announcement: The Kickstarter for Twilight: 2000 will be launched on August 12, at 3 pm Central European Time / 9 am US Eastern Time. If you want to be sure not to miss it, sign up to be notified on the pre-launch page on Kickstarter (https://frialigan.us3.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2dcfb24fb7c8d0fb9c2f52040&id=424eee18e2&e=35dfa34ce3). And to get into the mood, check out the teaser trailer below:

https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WYukmzLmQ2soaGdtUwg9yZjCUDYg9A05dXMIyqtMqcSFcvXwi6 Dz37-dwyj5n16nteyuVYFaNXREjWXXEG9bHzhXWqSLHP8cgzC2XYx31 RWPUEO5eK46tes8ZSiXmxWQBLa-2dHDaNZbbmlKobLEpHlpswJM6gmvTZKEoHf8g-w=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/2dcfb24fb7c8d0fb9c2f52040/video_thumbnails_new/949246a3f78237013b6529fb99985c90.png

RULES, LAYOUT & MORE
In the meantime, work is progressing well on the game itself. A group of external consultants, several with a military background, are now reviewing the draft game texts with a focus on rules and gear. The new edition will not be quite as rules-heavy as earlier versions, but it's paramount to us that the rules yield plausible results from a military perspective, while retaining playability and accessibility.

Twilight: 2000 will come in a boxed set, bringing back the feel of the first edition of the game with that iconic Poland map. At the very least, the game will include two books – a Players' Manual and a Referee's Manual – and character sheets, and a large, full color map of central Poland on one side and southern Sweden on the other. If the Kickstarter goes well, we will expand more items to the box, such as dice, combat maps, counters, and more. We're also looking into the possibility of creating a limited edition boxed set in metal.

On the layout front, we have found a style that we're very happy with. You can check out three sample spreads from the Players' Manual below. Note that the text is only placeholder (that includes headlines):

https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/v6xbSUK8hvLs2IUEeUCkjWfKggTrRKDbjamva5raKSnxmeJFxI vy-qJfI8i1Boga9PjMCHfwN33bm2Zl0MUv-QCCDn3cdn8bPAKNyHFnP3vYy9hIcjwHuqX5Gz4k7zCxka2SCeC 0yacjvMmlRDGnjNrvq8K0yA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/2dcfb24fb7c8d0fb9c2f52040/images/063ca4d6-b6ac-4f83-8783-95d8d49b6848.jpg

https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/hiOxX16m-w-CiCd_H0YTu_mzk2-SI80SJxd3cd_4NC4wSk4ttWddnIE1ByL5yuSbpL1-ckJ4N-3DZOJDXqP41NwaecSWO0PA64Ct73OLBNxOpoC2QL4Q4TcrW510 qiuBYe__R0dkrbQXFiaCP9CYAYljeMVeLw=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/2dcfb24fb7c8d0fb9c2f52040/images/92286ef9-170c-4409-b9c5-c677c0140590.jpg

https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/eyWDdg1T2bqXHBshb6OYPx4_pKQlqd7EBzSRLi9nLFQQDLLe7B TRezbI48KrNpQsxOct7FmS5CtEC3O6dxcoC5YayH2TDintp3Pq NxQgCpiysVb7MarJoZX0eTc5v0id4O5_vlaRroh-bq6kp72muwz15dkRVA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://mcusercontent.com/2dcfb24fb7c8d0fb9c2f52040/images/e64c266f-7fe5-4412-aab9-7eeae93aa0a4.jpg

[Ewan]

Hopefully the rules will allow you to build other European PCs such as British and German characters.
Really like the picture of the unit moving in the rain.

[comped]

Hopefully the rules will allow you to build other European PCs such as British and German characters.
Really like the picture of the unit moving in the rain.

From the pages they've posted, it seems like that isn't going to be an option, or at least isn't detailed in the pages they've shown. If that is all the different branches we get... why do only the US get anything other than the army?

[Ewan]

From the pages they've posted, it seems like that isn't going to be an option, or at least isn't detailed in the pages they've shown. If that is all the different branches we get... why do only the US get anything other than the army?
Maybe it’s part of a Quickstarter ruleset to give backers a chance to create some characters.

[Raellus]

Given that Sweden is going to among the official campaign settings, I'd imagine that there are going to be non-US military and civilian character build options.

[Targan]

I'm pretty used to the move over the decades towards rules becoming increasingly simplified, but in a gritty, realistic setting like T2K? Those excerpts suggest it's going a bit too far towards rools-lite for my tastes. Here's hoping the setting materials make up for it.

[Olefin]

The vehicle choices are way too simplistic - and only the M113APC or the M1A1 - no Bradley's, no LAV-25, no military trucks at all? It seems like it will be up to referees and players to have the wider choice of vehicles. I hope this doesnt mean that there will be only a very limited choice of vehicles when the time comes.

[Raellus]

The vehicle choices are way too simplistic - and only the M113APC or the M1A1 - no Bradley's, no LAV-25, no military trucks at all? It seems like it will be up to referees and players to have the wider choice of vehicles. I hope this doesnt mean that there will be only a very limited choice of vehicles when the time comes.

It's a sample. Either there will be more in the finished base product or, in keeping with the tenets of capitalistic enterprise, they're setting up a supplemental product (like a vehicle guide, for example).

Think of it as a teaser trailer for a movie. It's designed to build curiosity, excitement, and buzz, not tell a complete story.

My point is, don't read too much into this sample, folks. It's just a tiny taste, not whole enchilada.

[Legbreaker]

My point is, don't read too much into this sample, folks. It's just a taste, not a representative sample.

Exactly. Even the current draft material some of us are looking at (but can't share much of) is still very much a work in progress with some very large gaps. The art and layout stuff they've presented so far is really just like a movie trailer - enough to give a tiny taste and nothing more. In movie terms they haven't even completed filming yet!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

A closer read of what's stated in those pages, it seems to me that what's there is meant as a guide and not the "final word".
For example, the vehicle section comes across to me as quite clear that there are no hard-&-fast rules in place stating what vehicle the PC group "must" have, the Players discuss with the Ref if they can have a vehicle and what type of vehicle it will be is heavily reliant on what type of group their PCs are. If the group is from the US, the table provides a representative sample of some classes of vehicle they could get (civvy utility vehicle, military utility vehicle, APC, MBT)
There's a hell of a lot of implied leeway throughout the entire passage.

[Rainbow Six]

A closer read of what's stated in those pages, it seems to me that what's there is meant as a guide and not the "final word".
For example, the vehicle section comes across to me as quite clear that there are no hard-&-fast rules in place stating what vehicle the PC group "must" have, the Players discuss with the Ref if they can have a vehicle and what type of vehicle it will be is heavily reliant on what type of group their PCs are. If the group is from the US, the table provides a representative sample of some classes of vehicle they could get (civvy utility vehicle, military utility vehicle, APC, MBT)
There's a hell of a lot of implied leeway throughout the entire passage.

That sounds reasonable to me. Of the half dozen or so games that I've been involved in over the last few years vehicle allocation was only done by random roll in one of them, and even then it was from a list of choices discussed and agreed with the GM that were appropriate to those particular PC's.

Every other time we've discussed options with the ref and then selected vehicles that were mutually acceptable.

[Spartan-117]

There's a lot to unpack from their preview and I hope something things survive (i.e. encumbrance system seems to be a shift toward less tracking/inventory management, which I think could be good) and others get refined (i.e. either more branches applicable to more nations, or just go with generic 'Marines/Naval Infantry, Army, Navy, maybe the Air Force?, and let it apply to all relevant nations).

I don't think it serves the game to be so U.S. centric, especially given the the world has gotten smaller over the decades since v1.0 was published; development is being done in Sweden and not Illinois for heavens sake. 2013 did a great job with this in that their career paths are not country specific.

[comped]

There's a lot to unpack from their preview and I hope something things survive (i.e. encumbrance system seems to be a shift toward less tracking/inventory management, which I think could be good) and others get refined (i.e. either more branches applicable to more nations, or just go with generic 'Marines/Naval Infantry, Army, Navy, maybe the Air Force?, and let it apply to all relevant nations).

I don't think it serves the game to be so U.S. centric, especially given the the world has gotten smaller over the decades since v1.0 was published; development is being done in Sweden and not Illinois for heavens sake. 2013 did a great job with this in that their career paths are not country specific.

2013 had an amazing character generation system, particularly in the variety of careers, and it was probably my favorite thing about that version.

[swaghauler]

I'm pretty used to the move over the decades towards rules becoming increasingly simplified, but in a gritty, realistic setting like T2K? Those excerpts suggest it's going a bit too far towards rools-lite for my tastes. Here's hoping the setting materials make up for it.

LOL! You run the RoleMaster system, better known as "RulesMaster." There is NO modern RPG that can carry enough "crunch" to match what you use now! I KNOW this. There are copies of Character Law, Arms Law, Claws Law, and Spells Law on my own shelf as I type this. I have this image of you sitting behind a 5-foot tall GM's Screen just to have enough space to post all the crits charts you'd need to run a decent game. From a "complexity standpoint," the RoleMaster system is NO JOKE.

[Targan]

LOL! You run the RoleMaster system, better known as "RulesMaster." There is NO modern RPG that can carry enough "crunch" to match what you use now! I KNOW this. There are copies of Character Law, Arms Law, Claws Law, and Spells Law on my own shelf as I type this. I have this image of you sitting behind a 5-foot tall GM's Screen just to have enough space to post all the crits charts you'd need to run a decent game. From a "complexity standpoint," the RoleMaster system is NO JOKE.

An entirely fair observation :D. But even the very slim v1 T2K rules were FAR better suited to a modern combat RPG than the teaser rules we've seen for the new edition. I'm pretty good at honest self-reflection, I know full well that my penchant for complex, maybe even 'simulationist' rules isn't practical for most gaming groups. And certainly wouldn't appeal to the widest possible audience. But IMHO there's a balance to be struck, and while very light-on rules might well be the thing for today's new crop of TTRPGers, I suspect for those of us who were playing the v1, v2 and v2.2 rules when they were first published, the new rules system will seem cartoony.

As always, my comments on the new edition are in no way intended to put anyone off buying them and playing them. If a group enjoys them, play the hell out of them I say. More power to 'em.

[Sith]

As a Cold War historian, I want this game to be a success. However, I have this lingering gut feeling that I am wondering if others are sensing too.

This game doesn’t bring anything new to the table.

Version 1 was a new military based rpg that “felt” as if it could actually happen.

Version 2/2.2 introduced a new rules system

Version 3 introduced a new rules system and setting.

Version 4 “feels like” a version 2 redux... Cold War setting with a new rule set.

Even if the history is well thought out and incorporates “what we know now” in a way that brings a true sense of what could have been, it’s still the same basic game experience that 2.2 was.

Don’t misinterpret, I hope to be proven wrong. This is simply based on a lingering sense that I am feeling in the back of my brain... right next to all of the other useless bits of information. But I am wondering if anyone else is sensing the same thing?

[Legbreaker]

As a Cold War historian, I want this game to be a success. However, I ha
Version 4 “feels like” a version 2 redux... Cold War setting with a new rule set.


I think I'm allowed to say it is a different background history and some of the nations involved are either on different sides or in different theatres. That said, the situation in Poland itself is roughly the same.

[Olefin]

hopefully they wont have the Italians joining up with the Warsaw Pact to the point that they get nuked - that always struck me as insane - especially once the nukes started flying - pissing off the US and UK after the nukes were being used pretty much got Italy destroyed

[swaghauler]

An entirely fair observation :D. But even the very slim v1 T2K rules were FAR better suited to a modern combat RPG than the teaser rules we've seen for the new edition. I'm pretty good at honest self-reflection, I know full well that my penchant for complex, maybe even 'simulationist' rules isn't practical for most gaming groups. And certainly wouldn't appeal to the widest possible audience. But IMHO there's a balance to be struck, and while very light-on rules might well be the thing for today's new crop of TTRPGers, I suspect for those of us who were playing the v1, v2 and v2.2 rules when they were first published, the new rules system will seem cartoony.

As always, my comments on the new edition are in no way intended to put anyone off buying them and playing them. If a group enjoys them, play the hell out of them I say. More power to 'em.

I'm working from an open mind. I acquired Mutant: Year Zero to check them out. It has kind of a SHADOWRUN vibe to it but is very rules-lite too. I see from the posting above that they will be using a different size of die (unlike MUTANT which uses D6s) like SAVAGE WORLDS does? I'm hopeful but skeptical too, but I'll probably STILL buy the fourth (fifth*) edition to mine it for good ideas. I have taken loads of ideas from Twilight2013 (the technical 4th edition*) for use with version 2.2 (the real 3rd Edition*).

I'm still imagining you behind that 5ft GM's screen and you didn't deny having it. Do you have a window in it or do you just hang up a "GM is in" sign and narrate the image of a cold cruel world invisibly from behind that screen? at least the PCs have all their Crit charts available too... :vader:

* I hate how everyone just overlooks my beloved V2.2 Edition as the third ittineration of Twilight2000.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well considering Version 2.1 is just a rejig of the 2nd Ed. rules, from a d10 system to a d20 system and then following along we have Version 2.2 which is a better system for the d20 rules and a tweak of the history, it hasn't changed enough for most people to consider 2.2 to be a new edition.

[Legbreaker]

I see from the posting above that they will be using a different size of die (unlike MUTANT which uses D6s) like SAVAGE WORLDS does?

They're using D6, D8, D10 and D12 with extra D6s to use as ammo dice (whatever that means).

The very next section seems to muddy the waters a bit by referencing D3, 2D6 and D100 but nothing about the D8 or D12. Bear in mind though it's still just a draft and nothing is yet set in stone.

They also reference the need of a set of playing cards for initiative and encounter generation, as well as a custom set (included) totalling 62 cards (although apparently you can manage without the custom set).

So, it appears to be a very different system to the earlier editions and could share some similarities with Savage Worlds. I haven't looked all that closely at the mechanics though as my focus has been on the background.

[Cdnwolf]

Fully funded in 7 minutes and 5 stretch goals reached. I hope the new game is going to succeed and rumors have it that it is ROLL20 compatible so fingers crossed.

[comped]

Fully funded in 7 minutes and 5 stretch goals reached. I hope the new game is going to succeed and rumors have it that it is ROLL20 compatible so fingers crossed.

At the very least the picture they provided of the materials in the box set (and stretch goals) look nice.

[Heffe]

Looks interesting enough to me. Agreed that the preview images don't do a lot outside of presenting the style guide/format of the two included books - in short, we can expect that color palette and periodic pictures inserted throughout. Beyond that, I wouldn't read anything else into it - especially not with what's written (though admittedly I did find the idea of unit morale kind of intriguing).

As to the rules, we'll probably have to wait and see until more information is released. I was introduced to T2k in my early teens, and I will say that the rules system in 2.2, in particular the demolition rules, for someone that age are ... intimidating. So I'm open to some gross simplifications if it ends up attracting a lot more players to the game. My biggest wants are expanded weapon, vehicle, and gear sections, with enough skill variety to keep things really interesting and make for some wildly divergent player characters.

[Jason Weiser]

Funded in Seven Minutes...like another Kickstarter many of us are proud to be a part of (cough)Clan Invasion(cough). All I gotta say is...the games of our youth can still kick butt! And yes, Jason went and got the metal box...the wife COMMANDED me to!

(that and it was a birthday gift, but she actually told me..."Stop being such a loser and buy the deluxe metal kit!")

Yeah, and I got a blog to write more for...several actually. Ye Gods, this will be fun!

Love you much honey! :D ;D :thumbsup:

[Tegyrius]

As a Cold War historian, I want this game to be a success. However, I have this lingering gut feeling that I am wondering if others are sensing too.

This game doesn’t bring anything new to the table.

I find myself in grudging agreement with you. The Scandinavian setting option is technically new. However, the timeline seems to be alternate history from the same break point as v2.0/2.2. As far as mechanics... I like new and innovative mechanics but they haven't actually released enough detail (probably because they're still designing it) for me to feel like this will add anything new on that front.

I also think there's a significant portion of the fan base that doesn't actually want anything new brought to the table. So there's that.

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm not particularly interested in the rules but I really want to see what they do with the Swedish setting. I have a half-baked idea to slip a T2k game onto some unsuspecting players by starting it as a Tales From The Loop type of game where the mad science is the root cause of the war.
Pipe dream maybe but I want to try it!

I have to admit to being a sucker for the marketing too. I want the deluxe edition in the tin box because... umm... because... "reasons"...

I'm also curious to see how they integrate the idea of being able to start the campaign in any location, not just Poland or Sweden.
Part of the reason I want it too is because I've really taken a liking to the art style and I want to see more in that vein.

[Hybris]

Regardless what we wish for this is going to be something new and different. It will be impossible to do this game the “way I want it”.

Today we can just look at Wikipedia and find out things that would most probably have gotten us in real trouble in the late 1980s.
This also means that we can easily find out any flaws we want and there was many. But considering all the guessing I think it went well.

Now there is a new game and I think the setting will be excellent. I do not plan to use the rules as i prefer another system for my games.

But there is also a totally new audience who may be backing this game simply because it’s the free league, and they have no connection to the earlier games and they are having a complete different idea of how to play. My own desires are somewhat unclear. After 16 years next year in military service I now know too much. Can I enjoy a “simpler” setting?
Or do I just want T2K farming simulator tabletop rpg? With the occasionally firefight and misery?

Only time will tell but it can only mean an influx of people to the 2TK fanbase and it would properly mean a loot of work for the administrator if just a fraction of the newly imitated find its way over here . In the greeter scope of things, I think it will do more good than bad. But only time will tell.

[Lurken]

I'm not particularly interested in the rules but I really want to see what they do with the Swedish setting. I have a half-baked idea to slip a T2k game onto some unsuspecting players by starting it as a Tales From The Loop type of game where the mad science is the root cause of the war.
Pipe dream maybe but I want to try it!

The current reason for Sweden being pulled into the war is not Loop-related =P But, feel free to do it on your own. Might be a fun campaign!

I am trying to give other reasons why Sweden gets pulled in that is more believable. With all the background right now as written in draft, the biggest issue I have is how Sweden is pulled into the war. Then I have other issues regarding nukes, USA and middle east. But. It is very early in the process, so it should get better.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The current reason for Sweden being pulled into the war is not Loop-related =P But, feel free to do it on your own. Might be a fun campaign!
I was quite confident that the Loop had nothing to do with it and I fully expected the two games to be completely separate. The idea of linking the two was my own crazy idea because in my part of the world, there's not a lot of players who want to play T2k. However they might be willing to play a crossover between Tales From The Loop and Twilight: 2000.
Tales From The Twilight.
Sounds like a good campaign name!

So I'm working on the idea that the players start with Tales and some weird science from the Loop causes bad things to happen and then that escalates to the war and then it becomes full on Twilight: 2000 but with some elements of Tales From The Loop surviving so that there's enough science-fiction in the game to keep the players happy.

[Raellus]

I have to admit to being a sucker for the marketing too. I want the deluxe edition in the tin box because... umm... because... "reasons"...

Ha ha! Me too. I showed my wife the deluxe box set, and the $40 price difference, and her response was, "so the only difference is the metal box?"

I stammered, "Um, yeah, doesn't it look cool? And it's sturdier!"

She was behind me but I could almost feel her eyes roll. :rolleyes:

[sellanraa]

Sheesh, you all are making me want to upgrade to the metal box! :)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And I'll tell you, the desire to buy it has not diminished. Talking with other people who have been long term fans of certain GDW RPGs, they want the deluxe set as well.

SO...
I'm not just a victim of marketing, it seems I'll be a victim of peer group pressure as well haha! :D

[kcdusk]

Has anyone used the Alien RPG rules set, thoughts?

[Raellus]

I splurged on the deluxe box. My thinking is that it won't be available after the Kickstarter closes, so now's the time or I'm going to miss out. Most of my regrets in life -thankfully, not a long list- are things I haven't done. Is a metal box worth $40 more than a cardboard one? Probably not, but it's cooler, and a bit more special, so I just thought, "why not treat yo' self"? I can always pick up the regular box set later, but the same isn't true of the deluxe edition.

Next stretch goal is an expanded gear list; I really hope it gets unlocked. After that, it's base-building rules. Color me intrigued.

-

[Olefin]

went in on the kickstarter too - now lets see if they will add some of things Raellus and I published as sourcebooks for V4 as add ons

[Spartan-117]

I'm actually gonna down grade from the metal tin and get two sets of the regular RPG, plus Ref screen. Extra maps, tokens, another player's manual to hand out, and more dice, seem like they will be very useful when it comes time to run an actual F2F game (once this COVID thing is sorted out).

Most of my D&D 5e players haven't played TW2K, so having an extra boxed set to kick things off and help get TW2K into the rotation will be good. Once they play a few sessions and get into it, they can order a set for themselves if they want.

I've run two 5e campaigns for new 'don't even own a PHB' interested D&D players and the first few sessions require lots of PHB passing, dice sharing, and token/avatar imagination (so your PC is the green six sided die and Bob's PC is the Red d8, correct?)...

After the third session, things typically shift with shiny new PHBs, Wyrmwood dice towers, D&D Beyond on iPads, and Hero Forge minis suddenly in abundance...

Speaking of Hero Forged miniatures - have they mentioned what scale the maps will be?

[wolffhound79]

I finally know what to give to myself for my birthday today!!! Im excited to see the base guide and various items. Im debating between the tin or not. LOL

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Has anyone used the Alien RPG rules set, thoughts?
My gaming group is not a fan of the Year Zero rules, mostly because they're a bit too lightweight for some of the games we enjoy. Plus most of us are not fans of gimmicky dice sets (of which, Year Zero makes us of).
One of the group is a mad Alien fanboy, has been since the first time he saw the first movie. Bought the first Alien RPG, didn't like the Phoenix Command rules system it used so he made his own rules system inspired by some other games he'd played.

He wanted the Free League edition of Alien from the moment he heard about it, so much so that he got the special version or whatever it was.
When it finally arrived, he phoned me to talk about it because he was dead keen on running an Aliens game.
He told me the book was gorgeous to look at but the rules... the rules system was... lacklustre... he described them as "a hot mess".
He decided to run a Call of Cthulhu game instead.

[Tekrat04]

Found this on the comments from the Kickstarter.
Do you have questions about the edition of Twlight:2000? Join me tomorrow at 1PM EDT/10 AM PDT as I chat with Tomas from Free League and answer viewer questions! https://youtu.be/gq8aXbdMHtI
(This is will be available for viewing after if you can’t join us live.)

[Raellus]

Pleased to see the Expanded Gear stretch goal was unlocked. I'm curious to see what the Base Building rules look like. It seems like something that doesn't really require rules, per se, but I'd like to see what they come up with.

[comped]

Pleased to see the Expanded Gear stretch goal was unlocked. I'm curious to see what the Base Building rules look like. It seems like something that doesn't really require rules, per se, but I'd like to see what they come up with.

Considering they need a little bit over $35,000 more, and they have well over two weeks left oh, I suspect that they definitely will hit that goal. Now if they smash through the remaining goal is anyone's guess, but given the amount of money they continue to get per day I don't think it's out of the question.

[Olefin]

Question will be will they start to engage people like me and Alf to write or adapt our modules for the new system so they will have some quick releases to add to what has already been promised with what has been raised. And will the extra gear be a new book or added to existing base information release?

[comped]

Question will be will they start to engage people like me and Alf to write or adapt our modules for the new system so they will have some quick releases to add to what has already been promised with what has been raised. And will the extra gear be a new book or added to existing base information release?

From what they said about the gear, it's going to be simply added to the base book. As for their plans with the system... I can't answer because I don't know the answer. But they seem to have not a hell of a lot of material for their previous books, even years after they publish the core. I doubt they have much of a plan to release additional material immediately, although it would be nice if it was. With their plans to make this version of Twilight able to have community-written and sold modules and expansions for money, I suppose that might be a more cost-effective way to do so.

[Olefin]

I know he is open to fan releases but the question is would those be considered canon that others could build on? Or are they only planning to release the original material for print and after that the only releases would be pdf's written by fans - which could make things a little chaotic to say the least.

i.e. so you would have a baseline timeline - and after that its up for grabs

[Olefin]

Ok just got told the community releases wouldnt be canon - i.e. so fan releases or stuff released on the community boards arent canon - and that the only canon release so far besides the box and its contents is the ANZAC Sourcebook that Legbreaker is working on

I hope they get to work on more than that - i.e. one thing that made the game such a hit when it was originally released was how the world kept expanding with new canon releases that you could build on logically for a campaign

Thats why I could release my book the way I did - it builds on previous canon and is a logical part of the earlier "Iran" modules and cites the material released for the French in V2.2.

But in many ways it may not matter - frankly what Raellus has released even though its not "official canon" is just as good as anything ever canon released - and if there is anything you could build whole campaigns on and more releases on its his Korean Sourcebook

[Raellus]

Although it's disappointing on a personal level (I have a bit of skin in the game), crowd-sourcing content for T2k is a brilliant strategy by Free League. They don't have to lift a finger but they still get a cut of the profits. To be fair, this is fast becoming a standard industry practice, so they're just getting ahead of the curve.

A bigger, more general concern, though, is quality control. Are they seriously going to carefully vet every single fan-generated submission? Even if they do, the signal-to-noise ratio could make it difficult to sort the good stuff from the bad.

-

[Olefin]

Although it's disappointing on a personal level (I have a bit of skin in the game), crowd-sourcing content for T2k is a brilliant strategy by Free League. They don't have to lift a finger but they still get a cut of the profits. To be fair, this is fast becoming a standard industry practice, so they're just getting ahead of the curve.

A bigger, more general concern, though, is quality control. Are they seriously going to carefully vet every single fan-generated submission? Even if they do, the signal-to-noise ratio could make it difficult to sort the good stuff from the bad.

-

I share your concern Raellus - especially since fan generated submissions could very well end up contradicting each other - a point in fact would be the Kenya submission you did in the original fanzine versus what I released later - or the fan content for the 7th Engineers that is on several fan canon modules on the Facebook groups. Its great work but the actual Engineering unit for the 7th Light Inf is the 13th Engineers - the 7th was assigned to the 5th in Poland - i.e. it was part of what got destroyed at Kalisz and was never in Korea - so you could easily get very contradictory releases

[comped]

Although it's disappointing on a personal level (I have a bit of skin in the game), crowd-sourcing content for T2k is a brilliant strategy by Free League. They don't have to lift a finger but they still get a cut of the profits. To be fair, this is fast becoming a standard industry practice, so they're just getting ahead of the curve.

A bigger, more general concern, though, is quality control. Are they seriously going to carefully vet every single fan-generated submission? Even if they do, the signal-to-noise ratio could make it difficult to sort the good stuff from the bad.

That's the main issue with all community driven content sources - quality is often lacking to an extreme degree in comparison to official material.

[Tegyrius]

That's the main issue with all community driven content sources - quality is often lacking to an extreme degree in comparison to official material.

There's less of an excuse for that now than there was in the early days of fan pages (B.J. Zanzibar, anyone?) and zines before them. Spell checkers are mature technology, grammar checkers are getting better every year, and the monthly licensing for Adobe Creative Cloud has put professional-grade desktop publishing software within the reach of almost any hobbyist. The tools can't replace professional training and experience, but past a certain point, low quality is the mark of a sloppy work ethic, inattention to detail, a fundamental failure to master high school language arts, or someone who just doesn't have very good ideas.

- C.

[comped]

There's less of an excuse for that now than there was in the early days of fan pages (B.J. Zanzibar, anyone?) and zines before them. Spell checkers are mature technology, grammar checkers are getting better every year, and the monthly licensing for Adobe Creative Cloud has put professional-grade desktop publishing software within the reach of almost any hobbyist. The tools can't replace professional training and experience, but past a certain point, low quality is the mark of a sloppy work ethic, inattention to detail, a fundamental failure to master high school language arts, or someone who just doesn't have very good ideas.

- C.

And while that all may be true, if you look at the community markets for most of the major games that have them... the quality is somewhat lacking for the majority of the content up for sale. There's good, but the question is how much of it will be good?

[Tegyrius]

And while that all may be true, if you look at the community markets for most of the major games that have them... the quality is somewhat lacking for the majority of the content up for sale. There's good, but the question is how much of it will be good?

If you have to ask the question, the answer has already beaten you into resignation with comma errors, randomly-placed capitalization, sentence fragments, hoard/horde and ordnance/ordinance substitutions, and terminal inability to comprehend the difference between a possessive apostrophe-s and a plural -s.

- C.

[Olefin]

And while that all may be true, if you look at the community markets for most of the major games that have them... the quality is somewhat lacking for the majority of the content up for sale. There's good, but the question is how much of it will be good?

And a lot of fan content and community releases have all kinds of continuity errors

Mexican troops that are armed with Soviet tanks and armored vehicles instead of what canon releases say they are armed with (City of Angels anyone)

No fact checking that produces units that were assigned to Europe being in Korean instead

Timelines that directly contradict canon in multiple ways or are alternate timelines but not presented as such and thus you have people going huh? as they read it not realizing it was an alternate

Add in that kind of stuff and it very quickly gets to be a confusing mess about what is canon, what isnt and even what happened on what date and what unit is where and armed with what

[Legbreaker]

No fact checking that produces units that were assigned to Europe being in Korea instead.

In their defence, plans do get altered and units reassigned as priorities shift, so it's possible a unit intended of Europe pre-war could be sent elsewhere due to a pressing need for troops or transportation limitations/requirements.

However, units which have already been described in canon sources shouldn't be messed with. Tweak them a little, have detachments on long range patrols, etc, but don't go shifting them half a continent or more.

[Raellus]

Another Kickstarter stretch goal met = base-building rules unlocked. :cool:

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I really am caught on the horns of a dilemma here.
Having checked out some of the other Year Zero games, I really do not care for the rules system (I thoroughly dislike the use of gimmick dice for example) and I don't see it being suitable for the depth of gaming that I want for a post-apocalypse setting such as T2k.
However I do want to see the material they create because it's a fresh take on the world setting and it can always be converted over to a system I would prefer to use.

So I'm quite torn - support the kickstarter for a rules set I don't like and would never use or give the whole thing a miss and pass on some potentially new and great material?

And for the life of me (for reasons I cannot explain) I do actually like that metal box and want it!

[Targan]

I really am caught on the horns of a dilemma here.
Having checked out some of the other Year Zero games, I really do not care for the rules system (I thoroughly dislike the use of gimmick dice for example) and I don't see it being suitable for the depth of gaming that I want for a post-apocalypse setting such as T2k.
However I do want to see the material they create because it's a fresh take on the world setting and it can always be converted over to a system I would prefer to use.

So I'm quite torn - support the kickstarter for a rules set I don't like and would never use or give the whole thing a miss and pass on some potentially new and great material?

And for the life of me (for reasons I cannot explain) I do actually like that metal box and want it!

I feel similarly to you, but I'm falling on the side of not going to support the kickstarter. I am interested in their take on the setting, but I'd rather pull out my fingernails with pliers than use that rules system.

[Olefin]

the more I think about that rules system and other things I have been hearing the more I am wondering just how many other changes have been made for V4 that may make it almost unrecognizeable from V1 and V2.2.

Also if this is going to be just a one shot release or an actual supported game with follow on releases that are official and not just depending on the fans to support the game

[comped]

the more I think about that rules system and other things I have been hearing the more I am wondering just how many other changes have been made for V4 that may make it almost unrecognizeable from V1 and V2.2.

Also if this is going to be just a one shot release or an actual supported game with follow on releases that are official and not just depending on the fans to support the game

Even from what is publicly available from previous settings, never mind what info they have on the kickstarter, points to the rules - at the very least - as being completely different, and far lighter, than anything we've officially seen before.

And, at least in terms of post-release support, their other games seem to have a few adventures for them, not really any traditional sourcebooks. So this might be, depending on the sales, only community supported - and officially on their marketplace, at least, depending on how long FFE lets the license last.

[Olefin]

and will be quite interesting how community content is seen by Tomas and the community as a whole - if there are few or no other canon releases after the initial set who will be the one that says what is canon and what isnt? there have been a lot of arguments on here and other boards about that over the years

or will V4 be something that is more free form and after the initial release the canon is what you make of it as to the community releases - so for instance to apply it to current releases the 173rd could be in Kenya or Europe or Central America or never even been formed for V4 - it would all depend on what version of the community content you choose to use

[comped]

and will be quite interesting how community content is seen by Tomas and the community as a whole - if there are few or no other canon releases after the initial set who will be the one that says what is canon and what isnt? there have been a lot of arguments on here and other boards about that over the years

or will V4 be something that is more free form and after the initial release the canon is what you make of it as to the community releases - so for instance to apply it to current releases the 173rd could be in Kenya or Europe or Central America or never even been formed for V4 - it would all depend on what version of the community content you choose to use

From what I see with their other products, outside of a few adventures, they're rather lightly supported, and from info I've got off the discord, things not published directly by FL won't be considered canon. So the community published bits won't be. Meaning that, unless things change, we're going to have a lot of different people using the same things, none of it canon.

[Olefin]

From what I see with their other products, outside of a few adventures, they're rather lightly supported, and from info I've got off the discord, things not published directly by FL won't be considered canon. So the community published bits won't be. Meaning that, unless things change, we're going to have a lot of different people using the same things, none of it canon.

well that has the potential to open up Pandora's Box with a grenade considering the potential discord that has been seen before

and I actually have confirmation on the community published bits not being canon from Tomas

you would figure the kickstarter would wake them up to that fact that the fan base is looking for new official releases - and that we are willing to support that big time - I just hope Marc didnt give the rights to the wrong company

[Olefin]

FYI just got this from Tomas which gives some answers

"For 4th edition, just like our other games, community content is not official, and thus not officially "canon". Of course, it can still hold great value and if it works within the timeline set in official modules and explores areas of the world that the official modules don't, and then the question of "canon" or not won't really make any practical difference. But only official modules are official.

In the long term we're of course open to discuss ideas for official modules with experienced T2K writers like you but the first slate of modules (which will focus on Europe) will take a year or so after the main game release to launch, so any further official geographical sourcebooks are at least a couple of years off."

[comped]

FYI just got this from Tomas which gives some answers

"For 4th edition, just like our other games, community content is not official, and thus not officially "canon". Of course, it can still hold great value and if it works within the timeline set in official modules and explores areas of the world that the official modules don't, and then the question of "canon" or not won't really make any practical difference. But only official modules are official.

In the long term we're of course open to discuss ideas for official modules with experienced T2K writers like you but the first slate of modules (which will focus on Europe) will take a year or so after the main game release to launch, so any further official geographical sourcebooks are at least a couple of years off."
Years? That's a big risk.

[Rainbow Six]

Meaning that, unless things change, we're going to have a lot of different people using the same things, none of it canon.
The positive in that is the potential for a lot of different people to be playing T2K. That's a good thing. I don't really think most gamers will have any interest in getting too bogged down in the minutiae of what is or is not official canon. If they like something they'll use it, if they don't they'll ignore it (that happens anyway, even with canon - I ignore the Survivor's Guide to the UK, I've seen others say they ignore Howling Wilderness).

[Olefin]

The positive in that is the potential for a lot of different people to be playing T2K. That's a good thing. I don't really think most gamers will have any interest in getting too bogged down in the minutiae of what is or is not official canon. If they like something they'll use it, if they don't they'll ignore it (that happens anyway, even with canon - I ignore the Survivor's Guide to the UK, I've seen others say they ignore Howling Wilderness).

Personally I prefer what you wrote for the UK any day to the Survivors Guide

[Spartan-117]

So at this point, because of all the hate speech over in the discord channel (plus Olefin, who has greatly benefited by comparison) , I have so many of you on the ignore list that I have no idea what some of these threads are actually actually about. So I maybe I'm flying blind here, but I'm an American, so f*cksgiven zero, I'm posting!!!

You guys who say you aren't going to support this - come on; really think about this! Maybe there are some nugget to mine (Base rules? What if there's a unicorn gun Paul doesn't have!?).

I haven't played a Twilight 2K game in 10 years that uses basic load + $,$$$ per year of service - they have all used 'anything you can can carry, up to maximum load' for personal gear. That nugget came from 2013!!

What if all of your IRL friends get this version? You are gonna want to participate (ok, so that presumes you have IRL friends but you deserve the benefit of the doubt you Grognards!!). A lot of you like to hate on stuff (you know who you are) - how can you hate on something you don't have!? Buy it for that reason if nothing else animates you!

The truth is - for almost two decades, I've had to get my RPG fix online. I move around a lot and until very very recently, it was hard to find RPG players. Now, people are playing 5e in hordes. Sure, it's small batch, hand crafted, hipster RPGing or whatever, but it's happening. People are coming out of the woodwork for it. We, the TW2K enthusiast, have a window of opportunity (maybe small or maybe large) to introduce them to Twilight 2000. Now we have a new product to do it with!

Be honest with yourselves, these new RPers are not going to learn:

http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/formula.png
Actual Twilight 2.2 version formula provided above

They just aren't. And that's ok. That formula isn't Twilight 2000. The setting, the feeling... that's Twilight 2000.

Twilight 2000 is 30% your gun is X, or Y, or Z and 70%, 'you have only 3 magazines remaining....'.

I have absolute faith that any of you can run an authentic Twilight 2000 with what Free League will provide us.

Come on in for the big win! The last time we had this was what, May 2009, when 2013 was released? We've waited 11 years for this!

Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you sign on, you'll get a chance to help improve it.

When I was living in Arlington, Jason had a Meetup.com listing for a Twilight 2000 group meeting in Fairfax. I almost went to one - So close. But I had something else to do. I kinda always regretted not making time for that. Then I moved to a wasteland of RPGing where no one knew what Twilight 2K was.

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

[Olefin]

So at this point, because of all the hate speech over in the discord channel (plus Olefin, who has greatly benefited by comparison) , I have so many of you on the ignore list that I have no idea what some of these threads are actually actually about. So I maybe I'm flying blind here, but I'm an American, so f*cksgiven zero, I'm posting!!!

You guys who say you aren't going to support this - come on; really think about this! Maybe there are some nugget to mine (Base rules? What if there's a unicorn gun Paul doesn't have!?).

I haven't played a Twilight 2K game in 10 years that uses basic load + $,$$$ per year of service - they have all used 'anything you can can carry, up to maximum load' for personal gear. That nugget came from 2013!!

What if all of your IRL friends get this version? You are gonna want to participate (ok, so that presumes you have IRL friends but you deserve the benefit of the doubt you Grognards!!). A lot of you like to hate on stuff (you know who you are) - how can you hate on something you don't have!? Buy it for that reason if nothing else animates you!

The truth is - for almost two decades, I've had to get my RPG fix online. I move around a lot and until very very recently, it was hard to find RPG players. Now, people are playing 5e in hordes. Sure, it's small batch, hand crafted, hipster RPGing or whatever, but it's happening. People are coming out of the woodwork for it. We, the TW2K enthusiast, have a window of opportunity (maybe small or maybe large) to introduce them to Twilight 2000. Now we have a new product to do it with!

Be honest with yourselves, these new RPers are not going to learn:

http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/formula.png
Actual Twilight 2.2 version formula provided above

They just aren't. And that's ok. That formula isn't Twilight 2000. The setting, the feeling... that's Twilight 2000.

Twilight 2000 is 30% your gun is X, or Y, or Z and 70%, 'you have only 3 magazines remaining....'.

I have absolute faith that any of you can run an authentic Twilight 2000 with what Free League will provide us.

Come on in for the big win! The last time we had this was what, May 2009, when 2013 was released? We've waited 11 years for this!

Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you sign on, you'll get a chance to help improve it.

When I was living in Arlington, Jason had a Meetup.com listing for a Twilight 2000 group meeting in Fairfax. I almost went to one - So close. But I had something else to do. I kinda always regretted not making time for that. Then I moved to a wasteland of RPGing where no one knew what Twilight 2K was.

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

Spartan its about making sure that they stay as true as they can to the spirit of the game and that we dont have a repeat of Twilight 2013 - and they need to take the hint from the kickstarter both about how large the fanbase is and also what we are expecting from them

this needs to be a fully supported game - not one that a new module or sourcebook gets released every year or two - and the timeline needs to make sense not be a confused muddle that you look at and go huh???

And having them saying they are basically depending on unofficial fan canon to carry the game after the initial release isnt exactly very encouraging

based on the kickstarter they need to man up (in this case I mean get some manpower - or woman power) and get writing and get those follow ups in the pipe line as soon as they can

and that includes things like new sourcebooks, weapons and vehicle books, modules, etc. - sorry but the US Army had a hell of a lot more vehicles than just M113, Hummers and M1A1 tanks - and a game that is partially based in Sweden and no Swedish military vehicles?

the last thing we need is amateur hour or having this be under supported by the new owners

and depending on the fans to write for them with unofficial releases that will probably be totally contradictory and not in line with follow up releases (if and when they are ever done) is definitely both

if they want to show they are serious they should be talking to those of us who have written in recent past or are writing now and take advantage of a quick way to get some new releases - heck Alf's two books are perfect to be made into V4 canon new releases and I bet Legbreaker's will be as well. Mine depends more on what their timeline ends up as - i.e. the only reason the US is there is that refinery in Mombasa - if its not important in V4 then the US wouldnt be sending troops there - but Alf's books should fit right in

[sellanraa]

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

Tend to agree. To see noses turned up at a new edition possibly creating some new momentum and interest with minimal supplements produced in 20+ years (excluding 2013, which to me is something different). I dunno, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Thankful to have a bit of disposable income so I can buy a game I might never play, but to support the company's attempt at reviving it, even if I don't vibe on the rules makes complete sense to me.

[Spartan-117]

Hi dude named after Synthetic Fiber!

I presume your message is:

Spartan is amazing; thank heavens for his insightful, timely posts, which make me reflect on my online interactions and improve my ability to connect with people across the world.

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

[Olefin]

I have a feeling if they put out in the kickstarter another stretch goal saying this is the money needed for first of the European follow up modules or a full fledged US Army and Soviet Army Vehicle Sourcebook it would get filled up pretty damn fast

[Olefin]

Tend to agree. To see noses turned up at a new edition possibly creating some new momentum and interest with minimal supplements produced in 20+ years (excluding 2013, which to me is something different). I dunno, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Thankful to have a bit of disposable income so I can buy a game I might never play, but to support the company's attempt at reviving it, even if I don't vibe on the rules makes complete sense to me.

Alf and I have released three new supplements in the last few years - and the only reason there werent more is that Marc told us that he was negotiating for a V4 and that, at that time, he wasnt interested in more - at least that is what he told me when I asked about more releases

And then that changed after the fanzines got 1350 plus downloads each

[Raellus]

There's no such thing as bad press, right? And most of what I've been seeing here and on FB is very supportive of Free League's endeavors. The naysayers, at this point, seem to be a small minority. I've been very pleasantly surprised at how successful the Kickstarter has been to this point. I think it's really cool that so many people are eager enough for a fresh take on the genre that they're supporting its development financially. I think that bodes well for the future of v4.

I too have concerns about quality control issues and signal-to-noise ratio that lots of sponsored fan-created content will generate, but it's probably better to have more choices in terms of content than fewer.

I get it, though. We all love this game- that's why we're here. We don't want FL to "ruin" it for us. But let's wait and see what they come up first* before dismissing it. And hey, if you end up not liking what they come up, there's still v1, 2, and 2013 to fall back on.

*Don't put too much stock in the sample pages. They're SAMPLE PAGES. Teaser trailers, if you will. I'm confident that what they've shared so far will be more fleshed out by the time it gets to market.

-

[Rainbow Six]

Spartan its about making sure that they stay as true as they can to the spirit of the game.

I see it a little differently. I’d say it’s about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don’t you just carry on playing the original game?

we dont have a repeat of Twilight 2013
What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

That includes things like new sourcebooks, weapons and vehicle books, modules, etc. - sorry but the US Army had a hell of a lot more vehicles than just M113, Hummers and M1A1 tanks - and a game that is partially based in Sweden and no Swedish military vehicles?
Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we’ve seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.

the last thing we need is amateur hour
You’ve been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I’m sure we’ve both seen amateur work that’s better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not? Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon? You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

[Olefin]

There's no such thing as bad press, right? And most of what I've been seeing here and on FB is very supportive of Free League's endeavors. The naysayers, at this point, seem to be a small minority. I very pleasantly surprised at how successful the Kickstarter has been to this point. I think it's really cool that so many people are eager enough for a fresh take on the genre that they're supporting its development financially. I think that bodes well for the future of v4.

I too have concerns about quality control issues and signal-to-noise ratio that lots of sponsored fan content will generate, but it's probably better to have more choices in terms of content than fewer.

I get it. We all love this game- that's why we're here. We don't want FL to "ruin" it for us. But let's wait and see what they come up first* before slagging it. And hey, if you end up not liking what they come up, there's still v1, 2, and 2013 to fall back on.

*Don't put too much stock in the sample pages. They're SAMPLE PAGES. Teaser trailers, if you will. I'm confident that what they've shared so far will be more fleshed out by the time it gets to market.

-

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

With luck they will take one look at how fast the kickstarter has been funded and realize that this is not something to think they can one and done or one and "we will get back to you eventually" with official releases.

That was one smart thing GDW did - they released follow ups in a timely fashion that filled the need of those who loved the game and wanted that new material. And the last thing they need to do - especially with the attention spans of so many nowadays - is release it and everyone loves it and then nothing new at all to follow up with and depend on the kindness of strangers to write quality material

I.e. the last thing that V4 needs is a City of Angels or Survivors Guide to the UK type fan release as the follow up to a polished initial release and us being told the official releases wont be coming out for six months or a year or two

[Olefin]

I see it a little differently. I’d say it’s about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don’t you just carry on playing the original game?


What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)


Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we’ve seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.


You’ve been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I’m sure we’ve both seen amateur work that’s better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not? Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon? You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

actually my final version was a lot more polished than the original fan canon version - thats because I knew it was going to be official canon and I went thru it and did a lot of improvements to the original version - let alone making damn sure I wouldnt get sued for the pictures

And I never said Howling Wilderness wasnt well written - I said that it killing off basically most of the remaining US population with an uber drought that had no relation to reality was what I didnt support - that and having the US bring home 30000 plus soldiers and at most using 2000 or so of them and the US military made no effort to recruit new troops (when joining the Army is the best way to get fed after all) were not smart plot points

It was well written - it just had major plot issues and continuity errors - and you could see it was a direct "oh well we have to kill the US off enough to make 2300AD plausible" effort - but lets not jump the thread with yet another long winded Howling Wilderness debate shall we?

And lets be clear - attracting a new fan base is great but not at the cost of pissing off your old one - go ask Coca Cola how well new Coke worked for them

[Raellus]

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021), and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[comped]

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021, and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

My personal issue with that isn't waiting a few month, it's the outright admission that there's years to wait before proper sourcebooks after release. Even if I've seen things in their previous products that make me concerned about their ability to make v4 a success, I'd still prefer new material (or the chance to get it, even fan-made) over none. Wait too long and the fan-base that has backed the core book to the tune of 3 million SEK, might not be there to buy them. At least for specifically fans of the publisher over the setting.

[Raellus]

My personal issue with that isn't waiting a few month, it's the outright admission that there's years to wait before proper sourcebooks after release. Even if I've seen things in their previous products that make me concerned about their ability to make v4 a success, I'd still prefer new material (or the chance to get it, even fan-made) over none. Wait too long and the fan-base that has backed the core book to the tune of 3 million SEK, might not be there to buy them. At least for specifically fans of the publisher over the setting.

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed?

[Olefin]

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed?

No he made it quite clear - at least a couple of year before sourcebooks on any other areas in the world

[Rainbow Six]

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed?
It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

[Tegyrius]

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

Doesn't that feature just enhance your enjoyment of this forum like nothing else short of bourbon? I may need to use it a little more than I currently do.

Too bad it doesn't work on quotes.

What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

o7

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

I'll refer back to my previous comments about parts of this fan base just not wanting anything new because... reasons.

Back when the 93GS forum was running, we had one dude on there who legit wanted 2013 to fail because no one working on it was old enough to have served in West Germany in the '80s. That was his whole issue... as if spending a year staring at the Fulda Gap was a requirement to be a credible game designer in this genre.

- C.

[Raellus]

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

I sent him an invitation, via e-mail, a few weeks ago.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In general, we older gamers are going to have to deal with the fact that many games being made these days are not pitched at us - we are not the target audience anymore.
I think this is the same for Free League's games, with the rules system they use, we are not the target audience. Sure if they get some of us, they're happy, we're happy but they are aiming the game at people who have a different attitude towards gaming and the harsh reality is that many of those gamers are from the younger age brackets.

As I've said, I want to see the material they produce for this 4th edition but I have no love for the rules system and after looking at it more closely, I don't believe I will ever run it and I'm unlikely to be a player in a game using those rules (for the same reason that I refuse invites for 4th edition D&D - now those are some rules I actually hate)
While I understand what some people are getting at, an appeal for all of us to support the kickstarter regardless of what our personal interests or feelings are, is actually pretty damned insulting. I should support this version of the game even though I don't want to play it, just because somebody else thinks it's a good idea?

This is the same as telling me I should like a particular brand of clothing just because my friends do, or flavour of icecream, or type of beer or choice of vacation spot, just because someone else likes it/wants it/owns it/etc. etc. For me, these are things I regard as my own likes/dislikes, they're personal, they're subjective. So I will support kickstarters that I have my own personal interest in, but I feel no obligation to support one just because someone else wants it. Whether I support this kickstarter is entirely my decision, pleas to support it "just because" are actually making me less interested, I do want some of this new material but I don't need it so I'm happy to wait for a while and get more information before deciding to support (or not) this version of the game.

[Targan]

Fan-made content can be every bit as good as official publications, but unless there's heavy curating it's going to come down to the culture of the community for any given game. Many here will know I'm a Harnmaster guy, and that community is a prime example of the quality of fan-made content being, on average, top-notch. The T2K community has a some of that too, I'd use our own Paul Mulcahey as a paragon example. It feels a bit weird going on the defence of the new edition like this, but I wouldn't assume that the general quality of fan-made content for the new edition will be "amateur hour".

[cawest]

right now i am going to pass on this. i might pick it up at a FLGS. i wish they would put some of the timeline up in the kickstarter. if they did that i might be more inclined to support. not getting a new book for a year or more? that does not help me move over to the support column. i did look up other products from this company to use as a guide line. They don't seem to be in the support long term kind of company.

[swaghauler]

Well, I've reviewed Mutant: Year Zero, and I see it as a "modernized Shadowrun." I'll abstain from the Twilight2000 Kickstarter, but will most likely buy the game when I can get it in print. Like TW2K13, I'll mine it for cool game mechanics and setting info.

[Raellus]

While I understand what some people are getting at, an appeal for all of us to support the kickstarter regardless of what our personal interests or feelings are, is actually pretty damned insulting. I should support this version of the game even though I don't want to play it, just because somebody else thinks it's a good idea?

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as pushy, or generate peer pressure of any kind. Whether or not to support any given Kickstarter is a personal decision.

-

[Jason Weiser]

Gents,
Not speaking as a mod here, as the last thing I am going to do is use that status to tell ANYONE how to play their Twilight:2000.

Look, I am with the folks who say "setting is what makes T2K." It does. Like it or not. I've run v1 with GURPS, Savage Worlds, and v2.2 rules (which happens to be my fave), but Spartan has a point, younger gamers aren't going to do heavy math (hell, I have trouble with heavy math, LDs are a bitch).

But, and this is my own Kentucky windage. Let's wait and see. I want to see if I can get Chris Lites or Tomas himself down here to speak to a lot of this. I IMed Chris this AM and asked him if FL was accepting fan content for earlier editions. If this is the case, then us grognards might still have a playground of sorts?

Matter of fact, I want to remind some folks of this. Back a few years ago, Battletech had two games out. One was the Classic Crunchy Battletech of 2D6 80s hair metal glory, the other, was simplified clickytech. Did we old timers love clickytech? Nope. But a curious thing happened? We had more than a few Clickytech players make the leap into Crunchy Battletech, and more than a few have stayed. I think, and this is just my own opinion? We treat the simpler rules from V4 like this. Think of it as a zombie-free PA gateway drug for all the kids playing Team Yankee: "So, kids, wanna game out what happens after someone pops a nuke or three?"

Yeah, they may scoff and say "OK, Boomer." But, they may not. Let's get a Q and A with Chris and/or Tomas started. We're the institutional knowledge of thirty years of T2K. We've spilled ink, drawn maps, painted miniatures, and done everything in between to get this ol' girl off the ground. I won't tell you to back the kickstarter or not, it's your money. But what I will tell you? Open a dialogue. The worst they can tell you is "No, we don't wanna hear from the likes of you." In that case? Play it your way anyhow, it's not like they can send the fun police!

[Legbreaker]

Most of you know I have some strong opinions, well thought out and researched long before I say much about them. I'm also open to having my mind changed.
I've seen the draft material (which is almost everything they've already produced) and of course have some VERY strong opinions of it that I really wish I was allowed to share. That knowledge will change minds. All I can publicly state, which I have also said elsewhere, is that some will hate this version and some will love it. Unfortunately I don't see much room for middle ground.

My suggestion? If you have any doubts whatsoever, sit back and wait. If you're keen on supporting based on what's publicly available, then do that. Not much point trying to force your ideas on others is there? Isn't that what's wrong with the world lately?

Will I support the kickstarter? I've thought long and hard about that question too and feel that answering it will probably give away more than I should.

DAMN it's HARD to be restrained about something I'm so passionate about!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as pushy, or generate peer pressure of any kind. Whether or not to support any given Kickstarter is a personal decision.

-
My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.

The following is not an apology for my post but an explanation to why I made that particular post.
My post was to express my irritation at the way in which one poster was encouraging us to support the kickstarter.
At best the method used was simple peer group pressure, at worst it comes across as very near to emotional blackmail. I tend to have a negative reaction to people who try that trick due to having to deal with people in the past who tried emotional blackmail to get what they wanted.

[Spartan-117]

You can trust that the last person I would expect to advance the cause of anything is someone who styles themselves 'StainlessSteelCynic.' Sorry I didn't provide that disclaimer before, but please know that you are off the hook for now and forevermore.

I'd ask that in the future, you refer to what I'm calling Olefin's rule - "And if people dont like what I post - then they are free to read something else ..."

Now if you will excuse me, I need to update my Ignore List.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You can trust that the last person I would expect to advance the cause of anything is someone who styles themselves 'StainlessSteelCynic.' Sorry I didn't provide that disclaimer before, but please know that you are off the hook for now and forevermore.

I'd ask that in the future, you refer to what I'm calling Olefin's rule - "And if people dont like what I post - then they are free to read something else ..."

Now if you will excuse me, I need to update my Ignore List.
Sure, no worries mate, best of luck to you

[Ewan]

Fan produced sourcebooks etc will be a mixed bag as some people may want to push their own agenda on what the game should be.

Both the Korea and East Africa sourcebooks and the Rooks Gambit adventures are excellent examples of what can be achieved.

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service. Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

[Tegyrius]

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service.

Thanks for the interest! I'm not ruling it out but I, at least, don't have anything else like that in the pipeline today (I'm currently dealing with a looming deadline on some contract work for Onyx Path and my next T2k project is likely to be something other than vehicles).

The LAV-25 was unique in that it's an iconic vehicle in the game, but its T2k production and deployment were widely divergent from its real-world history. This allowed me some flexibility in describing its combat history and the doctrine around its use. I couldn't do that as easily with something like the Bradley or the BTR series. Having said that... I do have a few other ideas for possible future works, but most of them wouldn't be as iconic as the LAV-25.

(Quite frankly, I'm surprised that the LAV-25 project didn't get crushed by the weight of grognards telling me I got the doctrine and unit organization wrong.)

Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

Huh. I didn't think anyone actually downloaded and read that one (or the Czech setting sourcebook).

- C.

[Ewan]

Huh. I didn't think anyone actually downloaded and read that one (or the Czech setting sourcebook).

- C.

Yes I downloaded it a good number of years ago and was really pleased with the number of British vehicles in it and the British units in the Czech sourcebook.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Despite the bad rep given to many of us here, I think some of you would be surprised at how accepting we have been of the various books etc. etc. such as the Czech vehicle book. From what I recall, quite a few people were interested in it.

[Tegyrius]

Thank you, gentlemen.

@SSC - while I am quite cynical about this forum's overall culture and the reception 2013 received here, my comment in this case was meant at face value. The Czech setting sourcebook received a good reception, now that I look back at its release thread, but there was literally zero comment on the release of Czech Your Engine (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2361). I always figured no one cared, which is part of why it took me another ten years to produce anything else of significant size for this game line.

- C.

[sellanraa]

My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.


Echoing Rae, I know my post was to express my enthusiasm that this game is getting any fresh attention. I really have no stake in whether anyone supports or doesn't support the new edition. So if my post was a part of this feeling of being pressured to support, I also apologize.

[Jason Weiser]

Ok all, am speaking as moderator now. Nothing's gotten out of hand, yet, but let's not think telling folks how to or how not to spend their hard earned cash is a good thing, ok? And let's please watch the tone? I know we're all concerned about where the game might or might not go, but that's no reason to stop being civil with each other.

Other than that, carry on.

[Olefin]

Fan produced sourcebooks etc will be a mixed bag as some people may want to push their own agenda on what the game should be.

Both the Korea and East Africa sourcebooks and the Rooks Gambit adventures are excellent examples of what can be achieved.

What would be interesting to see is more vehicle books by Tegyrius similar to the LAV-25 one, it covered a number of variants, unit organisation and individual vehicles combat service. Depending on what vehicles is included in the initial books it could see this being a welcome addition for people looking for something similar to the various vehicle guides that were produced for V1 and V2 and Czech Your Engine that came out for Twilight 2013.

That is exactly my concern with fan produced material - at the very least they should have a process to have it vetted before hand. I.e. I didnt just publish my sourcebook on drivethrurpg.com

I sent it to Marc who reviewed it and told me that some changes were needed to make it canon, that there had to be certain copyright statements, some general appearance and layout changes (i.e. he wanted a different font size and spacing changes). I made the changes sent it back and it was approved.

If they will be depending on fan canon - especially given its a new timeline and new Twilight War - then that needs to be taken into account. As well as making sure those with agendas dont make something that is wildly out of sync with the actual official canon.

That was one thing Marc made clear when I started to submit it - that it had to follow the canon if it was going to be published as an official release and that no matter my feelings on Howling Wilderness or other releases that those were canon - but that I could expand the canon wherever possible as long as it didnt directly conflict with it.

I hope that similar rules are put in place and vetting procedures so that we can get good quality fan canon for everyone's enjoyment - even to things such as please use this font, use this spacing, use this layout, etc. - and I mean vetted by Tomas and Chris

[Rainbow Six]

My ire was not directed at you, so my apologies if it felt as though it was.
I share your opinion, whether to back the kickstarter is a personal decision and I never felt as though your interest in the kickstarter was generating any push at me to support it.
My post was intended to suggest that people give Free League a chance rather than prejudging something before it's been released. Giving them a chance means just that - don't dismiss something out of hand if you haven't even seen it yet and you only have three pages of the product to go on. There was no suggestion that support should be financial. That's quite obviously a decision for each individual to make for themselves.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

To clear the air somewhat, I'll restate my thoughts on all this, that is to say that I am actually excited for the 4th edition release but I have no desire to use the rules system.

I will probably buy 4th edition for the world background and adventures but I have decided that I will wait until the product hits the shelves before making any purchases. So no, I won't be supporting the kickstarter and with the money that's already been pledged, they are already successful (I mean seriously, fully funded in seven minutes. SEVEN MINUTES! - we have already missed out on any part of helping Free League reach their funding goal because it was reached before most of us started making posts about it here).

As for the person I was commenting on, I didn't want to name names but it's definitely a situation of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Suffice to say that this person has implied that I'm being added to their ignore list so if that isn't you, then I will assure you that my post was not directed at you and that I never felt any peer pressure from you (or this forum in general) to support the kickstarter.

From this point on I don't intend to revisit this specific event but if any of you feel I might be crossing the line, please feel free to give me a gentle reminder, something along the lines of "Pull ya stupid head in you tactless twat!", that'll work :D

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Thank you, gentlemen.

@SSC - while I am quite cynical about this forum's overall culture and the reception 2013 received here, my comment in this case was meant at face value. The Czech setting sourcebook received a good reception, now that I look back at its release thread, but there was literally zero comment on the release of Czech Your Engine (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2361). I always figured no one cared, which is part of why it took me another ten years to produce anything else of significant size for this game line.

- C.

Okay, no follow up comments at all. Yes that's quite unusual, I can understand why you'd feel as though nobody was interested, I mean, there's absolutely nothing to gauge the level of interest, no feedback. That's a bit of a head shaker at best and incredibly frustrating and dismaying at worst.

As for 2013, I think some of the discontent was not because of "changing the game", not because of the rules or even the game world itself, but from the attitude of the person in charge. By that I mean things like the demand for proof of being in the military before being allowed to contribute military information, forum replies that weren't from direct personal experience would be judged as not applicable and so on.
And it did feel as though it was a demand and that you would be excluded if you weren't "one of the gang".

Myself and a few other Australian ex-military gamers that I know of were interested in contributing but the demand to prove our credentials gave us quite a problem because (as I am sure it is with most nations) it is forbidden to send military documents to foreign nationals. To do so would require applying for security clearances and so on and it was much more trouble than it was worth.

I believe that is what soured a lot of people on 2013

[Hybris]

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

I have informed Tomas about this Forum, BUT for the moment everyone wants a piece of the Tomas Pie everywhere. So far the best answers from FL comes from the kickstarter.

[Hybris]

Free league has been doing kickstarters for a number of years now and it appears to be doing well for them. They always (it appears so) has things sorted out before the kickstarter launches.So that never over promise on content that are not EASILY added to the game /book.That means no or little delivery delays and its of course helps when the printing is don in the EU instead of china.


https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fria_Ligan

As you can see they rotate somewhat among their product line so i think its quite possible that when the remake of the original game are done ( the vistula campaign etc) and maybe some small swedish things added to spice things up we will see a hiatus when they prepare the next round before a new launch takes place (probably on kickstarter) . In the "downtime" we will see other FL games and supplements so when next round comes around for T2K more and newer backers will arrive and wonder what's all the hubba is all about.I only guessing here but that's the way it been so far and i don't think this will change. Its already a success for this small niche of a game and by the kickstarter comments its clear that i'm not the focus group for this game. But i would gladly take the art the clear nice Twilight 2K feeling and enjoy the reading. I haven't played any of the FL rules for any of their games so im on for all the fluff we will get. Im mean its a rpg after all so i will wing it to my taste.That said, ofcourse i will help them if a can and They want it. Its a FL game and they will try to do their best they can with this IP. I'm quite sure it NEVER can be as good as i want it but that the way it is. There is an huge amount with sources these days about the cold war and beyond. like the most of you (i presume) i have information to create a whole ww3 gaming world on my own but i'm happy that someone else its doing it. That's how i managed to keep playing for the last 10 years or so and if this game doesn't suit me i can continue.But i wish the the best because its good to see so many younger gamers out there starting to appraise military history. To be continued....

[Olefin]

Just got this -
All goals achieved - Now, we do have a few more stretch goals up our sleeve, but we need a little more time to finalize them.

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

US Army, Soviet Army, NATO Army Sourcebooks - use the V2 books and update them to V4 - would be a very quick and inexpensive way to immediately get new material and have them be official - this is a good quick win

A Swedish Army Sourcebook with specific Swedish military equipment - wouldnt have to be a full sourcebook but instead a supplement - Paul Mulcahy has a lot of Swedish equipment already on his site with V2.2. specs - you could use them, update to V4 and get that issued with the base game - www.pmulcahy.com

The first full length adventure module as part of the initial kickstarter effort so that you get that as well

[comped]

Just got this -
All goals achieved - Now, we do have a few more stretch goals up our sleeve, but we need a little more time to finalize them.

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

US Army, Soviet Army, NATO Army Sourcebooks - use the V2 books and update them to V4 - would be a very quick and inexpensive way to immediately get new material and have them be official - this is a good quick win

A Swedish Army Sourcebook with specific Swedish military equipment - wouldnt have to be a full sourcebook but instead a supplement - Paul Mulcahy has a lot of Swedish equipment already on his site with V2.2. specs - you could use them, update to V4 and get that issued with the base game - www.pmulcahy.com

The first full length adventure module as part of the initial kickstarter effort so that you get that as well

Sourcebook goals in general would be great. Either updates or wholly new ones - which, surely, they can contract out to people while working on the main edition... They have the resources and the knowledge base (here and elsewhere) to do so.

[Olefin]

Sourcebook goals in general would be great. Either updates or wholly new ones - which, surely, they can contract out to people while working on the main edition... They have the resources and the knowledge base (here and elsewhere) to do so.

I agree on the sourcebooks - or at the least an order of battle that shows what units are in the area depicted in the game's maps

Also US/Soviet/NATO sourcebooks would help those doing the fan canon releases - i.e. thats the base info we would need to make it as accurate as possible for encounters and scenarios

[Lurken]

I agree on the sourcebooks - or at the least an order of battle that shows what units are in the area depicted in the game's maps

At a bear minimum that is very needed. We should need to know the bigger formations on the maps and their relative strengths and maybe a short blurb about their status.

[Raellus]

I sent Tomas an email with some suggestions for more stretch goals - this is what I sent - what would others want to see?

I think I feel a poll coming on...

-

[Olefin]

go for it Raellus - definitely need that poll for Tomas

[Rainbow Six]

I'm inclined to suggest a Survivor's Guide to the USA. I presume it's an area that would be of interest to many consumers, so could be expected to be financially successful for the company and gamers would - hopefully - get use of out of it.

Now, creating a Survivor's Guide to the entire USA is likely to be something of a gargantuan task, which, if not done well, could result in something of a backlash. That being the case, perhaps FL could split the US into regions, north east, south east, west coast, etc, etc. They could then release regional sourcebooks over a period of time, maybe once every three to four months, thus alleviating the time pressure to churn out a tome on the entire US in one go.

That would probably take at least eighteen months - two years to complete (I'm guessing you'd probably want to split the US into what, six or so regions?), and would represent a continuous stream of fresh material coming out of the pipeline on a regular basis.

As an aside to that, perhaps they could release adventure modules to use with the sourcebooks on a possibly less ambitious scale, i.e. one module for every two sourcebooks. And mix it up a bit. Release two US Sourcebooks then release a Middle East Sourcebook, then another US then one based on a part of Europe.

While it's not my particular thing, 'gun guides' (for a lack of a better term) have featured in every version including 2013 so presumably there's a demand there and could probably be produced relatively quickly.

[comped]

I'm inclined to suggest a Survivor's Guide to the USA. I presume it's an area that would be of interest to many consumers, so could be expected to be financially successful for the company and gamers would - hopefully - get use of out of it.

Now, creating a Survivor's Guide to the entire USA is likely to be something of a gargantuan task, which, if not done well, could result in something of a backlash. That being the case, perhaps FL could split the US into regions, north east, south east, west coast, etc, etc. They could then release regional sourcebooks over a period of time, maybe once every three to four months, thus alleviating the time pressure to churn out a tome on the entire US in one go.

That would probably take at least eighteen months - two years to complete (I'm guessing you'd probably want to split the US into what, six or so regions?), and would represent a continuous stream of fresh material coming out of the pipeline on a regular basis.

As an aside to that, perhaps they could release adventure modules to use with the sourcebooks on a possibly less ambitious scale, i.e. one module for every two sourcebooks. And mix it up a bit. Release two US Sourcebooks then release a Middle East Sourcebook, then another US then one based on a part of Europe.

While it's not my particular thing, 'gun guides' (for a lack of a better term) have featured in every version including 2013 so presumably there's a demand there and could probably be produced relatively quickly.

Most of Western Europe could use an overhaul as well (UK especially). And that's before we get into parts of the world untouched by other editions...

[Rainbow Six]

Most of Western Europe could use an overhaul as well (UK especially). And that's before we get into parts of the world untouched by other editions...
Yeah...funnily enough I know a guy who wrote a 150 page Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK once. I should maybe speak to him about that. :)

Beyond that, you're absolutely right. I'm really just trying to think of what should be the priority in terms of what's going to be most popular, and I'm going to hazard a guess that there's going to be a large proportion of American gamers who might want to run campaigns in the US rather than, say, the Benelux countries so they can follow later - or be covered as fan pieces (admittedly, that's all pure speculation on my part).

[comped]

Yeah...funnily enough I know a guy who wrote a 150 page Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK once. I should maybe speak to him about that. :)

Beyond that, you're absolutely right. I'm really just trying to think of what should be the priority in terms of what's going to be most popular, and I'm going to hazard a guess that there's going to be a large proportion of American gamers who might want to run campaigns in the US rather than, say, the Benelux countries so they can follow later - or be covered as fan pieces (admittedly, that's all pure speculation on my part).

I'm guessing that beyond Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries (except perhaps Iceland/Greenland) will be propriety for their main market. The US would be great though, even if it's something that could be split up into quite a few books, and be an obvious lead on to Canada, Mexico, Central America, and elsewhere...

[Raellus]

Guys, I don't think we're going to see any big ticket items in the new batch of stretch goals. Why give a full adventure module away when you can sell it a-la carte i nstead? In other words, it's cool what we're putting together a wish list, but I don't see most of the ideas mentioned so far becoming stretch goals.

I'm new to Kickstarter backing, but if I understand correctly, backers automatically receive the unlocked stretch-goal products. That's why I don't see things like regional source books, gear books, guides to various national military forces, etc. being included as stretch-goals. FL would be giving too much away, and needs to keep some products in pocket for future sales if they want this product line to have any longevity.

I recommend we think a little smaller when coming up with ideas for new stretch-goals.

I'll put together one poll for proposed stretch-goals and another in the form of a wish list for future big releases (like source-books, for example).

-

[Rainbow Six]

Guys, I don't think we're going to see any big ticket items in the new batch of stretch goals.

Yeah, good point, I was getting a little ahead of myself in terms of kick starter stretch goals.

[Lurken]

I'm guessing that beyond Sweden, the rest of the Scandinavian countries (except perhaps Iceland/Greenland) will be propriety for their main market. The US would be great though, even if it's something that could be split up into quite a few books, and be an obvious lead on to Canada, Mexico, Central America, and elsewhere...

My book will include Iceland, albeit a bit shorter because it is smaller, less population and less involved in the war.

[Olefin]

Well we know they included one more scenario that is unlocked

STRETCHGOAL 20: “THE CHILDREN’S CRUSADE” SCENARIO LOCATION – UNLOCKED!
If we reach this goal, we will expand the Referee’s Manual with another scenario location, called The Children’s Crusade, written by Chris Lites. This stretch goal is both digital and physical.

The last two Stretch Goals are ones I hope we hit - especially the new version of the Black Madonna

[Benjamin]

After thinking long and hard about it...I just cancelled my $90+ pledge on their kickstarter.

It really came down to three things for me in order of importance from least to most...

3. It’s a boxed set. I hate boxed sets. They are bulky and easily get crushed. I had funded enough for the metal “special edition” but even that idea didn’t thrill me.

2. It uses my least favorite version of the TL. Version 2.2 TL was silly. By the time of the August coup attempt the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact were done. All the Eastern Europeans hated the USSR and even the Russians were apathetic. At least in Version 1.0 a person could argue that some vicious crackdowns might have put off the inevitable but by 1991 it was game over.

3. It will no longer in any way connect to 2300AD. As I said elsewhere, my T2K is always the past of 2300AD, my favorite RPG ever. Unfortunately, 2300AD is held by Mongoose Publishing and thus its quality is sub-par. If Free League had gotten the rights to 2300AD I would have funded that in a heart beat. But alas the two are separated so my interest has greatly waned.

Truth be told I’m not really fond of post-apocalyptic gaming any more. It’s so damn over done. I love talking about military vehicles and scenarios but I’m happy with the nearly complete T2K collection I have now and don’t need yet another version.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Truth be told I’m not really fond of post-apocalyptic gaming any more. It’s so damn over done.
I can relate to this very easily. Two of my favourite settings are apocalypse and post-apocalypse, I've got a number of movies, novels, TV series and games from these two genres because I would collect almost everything.

Almost... because I am thoroughly tired of zombie and mutant type apoc/post-apoc, they've been done so often that many of the stories/movies/games end up being pretty much the same. There's so many of them I've stopped collecting apoc/post-apoc RPGs and just focus on the few that I would like to play.
I think the way these two genres have been saturated with product, it's very easy to become jaded.

[Legbreaker]

2. It uses my least favorite version of the TL. Version 2.2 TL was silly.

As one of the few who've seen the new timeline, I think I can confirm it's NOT the same as 2.2 (or any of the other versions). It really only shares the divergence point with 2.2 and a few other very small details (Americans in Poland as one example).
Other than that, it's a complete rewrite which could still tie in to 2300, if you squint your eyes a bit and use some imagination.

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.

[Ewan]

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.
Because it’s a well known brand and people will back it.
If it was called say “Warfare in the 1990s RPG” you would probably get less backers.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I believe the question was rhetorical.
We're all pretty aware of why it would be branded as a T2k game.

[Rainbow Six]

I am thoroughly tired of zombie and mutant type apoc/post-apoc, they've been done so often that many of the stories/movies/games end up being pretty much the same. There's so many of them I've stopped collecting apoc/post-apoc RPGs and just focus on the few that I would like to play.
I think the way these two genres have been saturated with product, it's very easy to become jaded.

I've had similar conversations to this with people before. I enjoy the post apoc genre, whether it's Twilight 2000, Mad Max, Survivors (BBC series that ran briefly in the 70's then was rebooted equally briefly in the 2010's), etc, etc.

Mutants I can kind of tolerate. But I have no interest whatsoever in the Zombie genre. I don't even class it as post apoc. It's supernatural (or however you want to describe it). In my opinion it's a completely different genre, one that has virtually nothing in common with the one that I enjoy.

[Benjamin]

As one of the few who've seen the new timeline, I think I can confirm it's NOT the same as 2.2 (or any of the other versions). It really only shares the divergence point with 2.2 and a few other very small details (Americans in Poland as one example).
Other than that, it's a complete rewrite which could still tie in to 2300, if you squint your eyes a bit and use some imagination.

Honestly, it's so different I'm not even sure why they're calling it Twilight:2000.

Thanks for the info. That’s interesting and not what the initial interview and announcements led me to believe. But that could very much go either way. It be a good solid believable timeline or a train wreck (cough, 2013, cough). I try to take a look at it when it comes out in game stores but if it’s in a boxed set that might not be possible.

[Benjamin]

I've had similar conversations to this with people before. I enjoy the post apoc genre, whether it's Twilight 2000, Mad Max, Survivors (BBC series that ran briefly in the 70's then was rebooted equally briefly in the 2010's), etc, etc.

Mutants I can kind of tolerate. But I have no interest whatsoever in the Zombie genre. I don't even class it as post apoc. It's supernatural (or however you want to describe it). In my opinion it's a completely different genre, one that has virtually nothing in common with the one that I enjoy.

I agree. The zombie genre is repetitive and boring. And way over done.

On a similar note I’ve grown really bored with the grim dark Sci-Fi genre that almost always tries to be somehow “Lovecraftian”. I still like Eclipse Phase because the books are really attractive and the writing is good, but I’m even a bit jaded by the new Aliens RPG (also coincidentally by Free League). Had a good version of Aliens come out 10 years ago I would have super excited but now it’s just one of many many “Horror in the darkness of space!” RPGS and so I’m “meh” about it. (At least Aliens doesn’t have the added trope of “We’ve lost Earth!”)

That’s why I like 2300AD (and for harder sci-fi, Transhuman Space by Steve Jackson Games). Sure you could have a horror themed adventure or cyberpunk but overall it’s a pretty straight forward good sci-fi setting with believable colony worlds and excellent aliens. And as a bonus when tied to T2K it had a well developed plausible background that could be mined for adventure ideas.

[Olefin]

Its definitely not tied to Twilight 2300AD in any way - Tomas made that very clear that V4 isnt part of that universe in any way - so its basically a fresh start as far as the future - i.e. the whole Mexico takes over Central America and the American Southwest, independent Texas, the French Empire - all of that is not a factor in V4

And yes the timeline is different - enough so that its not a tweak of V2.2 - its a major revision of 2.2

[Legbreaker]

And yes the timeline is different - enough so that its not a tweak of V2.2 - its a major revision of 2.2

Revision? Not at all. It's a totally new background that only shares a few small points. Reboot probably is a good word to use. That's always a good idea for movies and television, looking at the past with modern eyes always works right?

[Olefin]

Revision? Not at all. It's a totally new background that only shares a few small points. Reboot probably is a good word to use. That's always a good idea for movies and television, looking at the past with modern eyes always works right?

Sometimes it does - Battlestar Galactica comes to mind immediately or the reboot Star Trek initial movie - but I have also seen that work very badly indeed - i.e. what they did to Khan in the second movie

and yes you are right - its a reboot - and actually its on a par with the Battlestar Galactica reboot as far as the changes if you think about it - so the question is will the fans love it once its out there (remember there was one hell of a lot of resistance to the BSG reboot when it was announced - i.e. equate the no 2300AD tie in to BSG making Starbuck a female) or will they win over new converts but at the cost of turning off the old fanbase

Getting Frank Frey involved helps a lot - got me if they can get others to sign on too from "classic T2K' - I know that I would love to write for it - and frankly as I have said Raellus's Rooks Gambit just screams lets rewrite it for V4

[Olefin]

Another stretch goal unlocked

We will now expand the boxed set with two double-sided extra-large combat maps (size 432x279mm) depicting the four scenario sites included in the Referee’s Manual.

All this is left is the Black Madonna

[comped]

Another stretch goal unlocked

We will now expand the boxed set with two double-sided extra-large combat maps (size 432x279mm) depicting the four scenario sites included in the Referee’s Manual.

All this is left is the Black Madonna

At the rate they are going, they should unlock that goal.

[Hybris]

I would guesstimate that this kickstarter lands around 4 mil if nothing exciting is added that people can't live without, such as vehicle cards or an surprise adon sourcebook etc.A success it is anyway since the most funded rpg game so for for FL is: 4 249 903 SEK for the Electric State, they may even beat that goal.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Recently the kickstarter hit another stretch goal. The Black Madonna rewrite is now unlocked based on the money pledged although when I check the kickstarter page it had not been updated to reflect this

[Hybris]

Good Morning, its about 07,30 here in Sweden on saturday morning, so im sure the next SGs will be delayed a bit.

[Cdnwolf]

With only a few days left I don't forsee any major stretch goals. Maybe another set of dice would be easiest.

*dreaming of a Pirates rewrite*

[Olefin]

Recently the kickstarter hit another stretch goal. The Black Madonna rewrite is now unlocked based on the money pledged although when I check the kickstarter page it had not been updated to reflect this

STRETCHGOAL 22: THE BLACK MADONNA – UNLOCKED!
The Black Madonna is one of the most iconic modules for the first edition of Twilight: 2000. If we reach this goal, the original author Frank Frey will write a new version of this scenario, updated for the new edition. This is a digital stretch goal, which will be made available to all backers in PDF format, after the release of the core game. Backers will also be able to order a printed version of this book from our webshop at zero cost except shipping.

[Jason Weiser]

It seems they are listening to people on what they want:

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – LOCKED
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

[comped]

It seems they are listening to people on what they want:

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – LOCKED
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

Excited for this.

[Legbreaker]

I can't believe they didn't include this from the very start! It's rather vital to form a proper understanding of the game world for referees. Bit of a big step up too compared to the others. I wonder if they made it more because they don't really want to include it if they can avoid it?

[Olefin]

I agree this should be a day one goal - surprised they never considered it till now - that and there should be soon some kind of order of battle for the US, Soviet, Swedish and NATO forces in the game - especially for refs running scenarios - you could use the old books but with the new timeline they wont be accurate

[Targan]

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out :(

[StainlessSteelCynic]

If only crowd funding had been a thing when the previous editions came out :(

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

[Raellus]

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines.

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

But first you've got to develop a product and get it to market, and that takes capital. KS is a way to cut out the middle man. It's a great concept, when it works. Word of mouth only works once the product's in people's hands. Getting it there is the first hurdle; KS is a way to get over it.

What's curious to me is that FL is an established industry entity- they probably don't need KS to get v4 off the ground. It seems like they could get the start-up funds without KS, but that would probably entail owing interest on loans (or dividends to investors), and/or giving up a share of the profits (yeah, I've watched a few episodes of Shark Tank). With KS, all they owe is the product promised to their backers. It seems like a better deal for them, and maybe a faster track for potential customers.

I was thinking about this earlier today. The v4 KS backers are essentially pre-ordering, and pre-paying for the game. It's a great way to generate start-up capital, but is it a model with sustainable revenue generating possibilities? I just wonder what their long-term strategy is.

And that's where you're right on the money, SSC (pun intended)- if FL wants to sell more product than what their KS backers have essentially already pre-purchased (to the tune of $500k), the product is going to have to be good. Backers are going to have to be impressed/pleased enough with the core system to intro it to their gaming group, or recommend it to friends, or praise it on the interwebs- not to mention purchase follow-up products in the line. Otherwise, the buck is literally going to stop with the KS backers and the core box set.

-
And that very much sums up my take on crowdfunding for things like this.
I've dabbled in crowdfunding over the years and when it comes to things like raising funds to, for example, build wells in remote communities or help start community businesses, the overall outcomes are generally positive for the short & long term.

I do appreciate the desire to mitigate risk by cutting out the need to raise capital, take loans or get investors but when it comes to crowdfunding for hobbies and the like, it really does feel sometimes like it's a quick grab for cash and there is no intention of supporting the product for the long term.
For a company like Free League or Clockwork Publishing, I can understand the desire for crowdfunding because even though they are well established they're still small companies and don't make massive profits.

But still, given Free League's track record of a big release at the beginning and very little to no product development/release after a few years, I am concerned that this kickstarter will give them the money they need to push a bunch of product out in the first year and then they will rest on their laurels and do nothing else for this 4th edition (except to rely on fan-made content to keep interest alive). With all the cash they'll be getting from this kickstarter, they don't really have to do much work to keep the company financial for the next couple of years - that's why it concerns me. Will they simply figure "Hey we've done all we have to, lets put our feet up until we come up with some new game" or do they truly intend to develop the T2k setting for a longer term?

[pansarskott]

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Kickstarter isn't only about the money, it's also about advertising and building hype
Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

[Lurken]

Absolutely and that's something I didn't think about. It's definitely a positive factor for whoever is trying to get a crowdfunding project started - free advertising! What's not to like.

But with that said, it doesn't do anything to remove my concerns about what happens to Twilight: 2000 after Free League have delivered all the items for the kickstarter. There's some talk from them about wanting to release more product in a few years but considering what has (or rather, hasn't) happened with their other product lines, I am left to think "Okay, that's a nice thought, but I'll believe it when I see it."

To defend Free League a bit, their Mutant:Year Zero, as called everywhere but Sweden, they have released expansions for them. One box for each major archetype, animal-mutants, robots, non-mutated humans (and mutated humans were the bog standard in the release box). But you do have a point.

[Targan]

Didn't need crowdfunding back then. Good product was it's own best advertisement and people bought games on the recommendation of other players and gaming magazines (and not some company sponsored social media "influencer" - looking at you Harry Knowles).

Where crowdfunding would have helped was to give GDW the finances to fight off TSR when Lorraine Williams (who was in charge of TSR at the time and someone who actually disliked gamers) was trying to expunge any influence Gary Gygax had on fantasy gaming.

I was more thinking of T:2013.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

I was more thinking of T:2013.

Ah! When you said "earlier editions" I took that to mean 1st & 2nd editions.

[Olefin]

Based on the responses I have received from Tomas I am very concerned that they arent prepared for what is needed for a successful launch of V4. Seems to be that there are too few resources dedicated to the game beyond the initial launch - and saying that new sourcebooks would be 1-2 years or more in the future smacks of a game that is not supported well

Given what is going on now and the fact that every stretch goal has been met to where they need more and more he should be immediately staffing up or switching writers over and getting to work on follow ups.

Notice that there is no date on the updated Black Madonna? If they want this to work it need to be out within a couple of months at most of the initial release - i.e. because campaigns using the new system arent going to just wait around for new material. Or they may already be out of the area in the campaign and its a "too little, too late" kind of thing

And turning down offers from me, Raellus and Leg (or saying that at best they would be fan canon) just smells of improper support. Especially since Raellus and Leg have stuff written that could be turned into V4 very quickly

[Olefin]

And now we get the more expanded story we have wanted

STRETCHGOAL 25: HOMELAND HACK – UNLOCKED!
If we reach this goal, we will expand the World at War chapter in the Players’ Manual with texts describing major regions beyond the core settings Poland and Sweden. These texts will cover the US, the UK, and Germany, and an overview of the rest of the world. The texts will be accompanied with include guidelines for placing a Twilight: 2000 campaign in these areas.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It's interesting to see that the Homeland Hack was included as pretty much a last minute stretch goal and yet they had earlier stated something along the lines of "the game will allow you to start your campaign anywhere in the world".
So... from the look of that, you would not have been able to start anywhere in the world (except Poland or Sweden) but now that a stretch goal has been unlocked (and the hardest to reach stretch goal at that), those rules might actually be included in the game?

Or am I missing something?

[wolffhound79]

maybe its an expansion on information for the world????

[Legbreaker]

Chris Lites officially stated on facebook about sixteen hours ago Poland is NOT part of the Warsaw Pact in 4th ed.

Thoughts?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Chris Lites officially stated on facebook about sixteen hours ago Poland is NOT part of the Warsaw Pact in 4th ed.

Thoughts?

You fucking what? :confused:
So if Poland isn't allied with the Soviets, then there's only three possibilities I can think of: -
1. neutral like Switzerland (I really can't see that happening with the hardliners in the Polish communist party)
2. goes it alone against all comers (certain death for sure and thus highly unlikely)
3. allied with NATO (even less likely than neutrality considering the hardliners in the Polish communist party)

For the alleged 1980s-1990s time period Free League has claimed for the game, none of those 3 make any logical sense.

As multiple people have said throughout the Star Wars movies...
"I have a bad feeling about this".

[Lurken]

For the alleged 1980s-1990s time period Free League has claimed for the game, none of those 3 make any logical sense.

Though they have said that the main game will be during year 2000. So not in the 80s-90s.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Though they have said that the main game will be during year 2000. So not in the 80s-90s.

You misunderstand me - the game begins in 2000 so to set that up, they supposedly follow the real world through the Cold War period up to the 1990s when there is a point of departure from the real world.
The Twilight War starts around the mid-1990s and is all but over by the year 2000. Hence, this is where PC campaigns begin, after the destruction of society as we know it.
But there has to be a lead up to that destruction, a path that was followed to bring upon the apocalypse of a third world war. A history that took place to allow the end of society and to create a broken world for the PCs to try and fix, starting in the year 2000.

Everything they have told us so far follows that idea.
Free League inferred that they would be following something similar to the 2.2 background (with some changes to allow Sweden to be a PC location as well).
If they want Poland to not be part of the Warsaw Pact, there would have to be logical reasons for Poland to leave the Pact but it would also require a realistic amount of time for Poland to leave the Pact.
It's an event of such huge significance that it would massively affect Europe.

Now unless they want the world background to look as though it was written by a bunch of eight year old boys who think war movies are "cool", Free League need to provide a believable world background. If they don't, then word of mouth alone will pass on the message that 4th edition is garbage and it will be forgotten like 2013 was.
The only halfway reasonable excuse for having Poland not be a part of the Warsaw Pact is if they decided to disconnect themselves from Eastern Europe, the Eastern European economy and the Soviet Union and then that directly leads into the war.

[Ewan]

If the Warsaw Pact ended in February 1991 and the coup in the Russia/Soviet Union was in August 1991 then why would Poland be part of the Warsaw Pact.
https://www.nato.int/cps/us/natohq/declassified_138294.htm

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Because the premise of Twilight: 2000 is that the Warsaw Pact did not end.
In the real world, the Cold War ended, in the T2k world it did not.

[sellanraa]

Can anyone who is on FB expand on the context of this statement? Was it just totally out of the blue that he mentioned it?

Definitely seems like an unnecessary change that radically changes the storyline and I guess I wonder what their justification might be.

Anxiety...growing...

[Legbreaker]

The question was asked if Poland was still part of the Pact in 4th ed. Chris' simple answer was "no".

[Legbreaker]

4481

4482

[sellanraa]

That's really weird. I wouldn't even think to ask that question because it's just sort of a given that the global political scenario would remain unchanged. I wonder how people will react to that news.

[Rainbow Six]

I think this may have been signposted in the sample pages that were posted at the start of the thread

Polish Army
Newly independent, the Polish Army was, until recently, part of the Soviet Bloc. Now operating on their own, they sought to join NATO prior to the breakout of the War.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well, I hope they have a really decent reason for Poland somehow becoming independent considering the resistance the Poles would have had from inside their own government & the communist party.
And the Soviets.
Hungary or Czechoslovakia ring any bells?
Otherwise, it's going to be a problem for anyone with even minor knowledge of the Cold War to suspend their disbelief to accept the 4th Ed. timeline.

It's a cause for concern. What's next? What about the clash between Indonesia and Australia? What about the Soviets turning great patches of China into radioactive slag? These are all parts of the timeline that indicate the conflict is global and that the whole world is suffering.
If nothing else, they serve as guidelines, as illustrations of the state of the world.
If they aren't included, how does the GM know what the feel of the gameworld would or could be?

There needs to be a believable reason for the war, there needs to be a believable chain of events. The T2k setting requires a breakdown of military command so that the PCs are free to adventure however the GM & Players see fit.
If there's no Europe-wide clash between NATO and WarPac, how do they achieve the destruction of the world so that the PCs are released from military authority?

[swaghauler]

It sounds like they took a page from my alternate history.

In my world, the Pact fell, and the very real-world Visegrad group of Poland, The Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary formed. They joined the EU and NATO after the year 2000 but... IN MY TIMELINE, Russia instead begins to foment "revolutionary groups" in these countries in order to regain control of them (see modern-day Ukraine for an example of this). The violence in Poland leads the PRO-WESTERN Polish government to seek aid from Germany and the West to counter Russian-backed rebels inside the country. Most of NATO says "no way" because they are involved in operations in Africa, East Timor, The Middle East, and Kosovo. The US, UK, and Germany do come to the Polish Government's aid, however. This causes the now-familiar schism in NATO. This is also the reason why some towns in Poland are pro-West and some are pro-Russian. It should also be noted that in my timeline the rest of the Visegrad powers are also under such a state of Russian-influenced "insurrection" but are primarily pro-Western in outlook as well.

[swaghauler]

Well, I hope they have a really decent reason for Poland somehow becoming independent considering the resistance the Poles would have had from inside their own government & the communist party.
And the Soviets.
Hungary or Czechoslovakia ring any bells?
Otherwise, it's going to be a problem for anyone with even minor knowledge of the Cold War to suspend their disbelief to accept the 4th Ed. timeline.

It's a cause for concern. What's next? What about the clash between Indonesia and Australia? What about the Soviets turning great patches of China into radioactive slag? These are all parts of the timeline that indicate the conflict is global and that the whole world is suffering.
If nothing else, they serve as guidelines, as illustrations of the state of the world.
If they aren't included, how does the GM know what the feel of the gameworld would or could be?

There needs to be a believable reason for the war, there needs to be a believable chain of events. The T2k setting requires a breakdown of military command so that the PCs are free to adventure however the GM & Players see fit.
If there's no Europe-wide clash between NATO and WarPac, how do they achieve the destruction of the world so that the PCs are released from military authority?

By having many SMALL "flashpoints" that require "immediate attention" so that you really don't KNOW it's a WORLD WAR until it's too late.

In my own alternate timeline, I did this by...

1) Having the Soviet Union FALL.

2) The West then draws down its own military strength through 1997.

3) The US NEVER gives Russia the aid package which in real life kept her economy from totally crashing in the early '90s. A desperate Russia begins selling the ONE THING she has in plenty, Military Technology.

4) Russia sells NK, Iran, Iraq, and Africa huge sums of military equipment and tech. She partners with India (a strong economy) trading equipment for resources.

5) The '96 Mexican elections go south and a NARCO-PUPPET state forms there and in Guatemala. Russia trades heavy military tech for cold hard drug money and the cartels gain the power to at least prevent the US from pushing a coup in Mexico.

6) Kosovo, East Timor, and the African incidents help stretch the US thin.

7) Moscow negotiates a loose peace between Iraq and Iran with Syria kind of joining in. This creates a new threat in The Gulf and the US reacts to this (spreading herself even thinner).

8) Turkey becomes more militant and the issue between Turkey and Greece becomes hot again.

9) NK begins rattling her saber as she becomes concerned over "warming relations" between China and the US. The NK war goes hot in early '99 with Russia supporting (goading?) her into it.

10) As Iran rearms, the US begins helping Pakistan (already fighting with India) to increase her military strength. This triggers India (afraid of BOTH Pakistan AND China) to turn towards Russia. The border skirmish between India and Pakistan becomes a full-on war.

11) Russia and China have their border dispute in 98 (just like in real life) but this time it goes HOT. This is the Russo-Chinese War in the V2.2 rules for me.

12) PUTIN rises to power in late '98 NOT 2003, and basically makes the waves he made in the real world. He basically tries to seize control of former Pact territories through subversion and insurgency.

13) Late into the hostilities, Spain decides it's a good time to try and take Gibraltar. The UK and the US are forced into a new theater of war.

14) Italy and France are engaged in Africa and Italy supports Greece against "Turkish Aggression" and this goes "hot" in the Med.

15) At Russian urging, Mexico attacks the US in early '99 in response to the US seizing Mexican oil platforms at sea and trying to overthrow the NARCO-PUPPET state. The Russians send "advisors" (division Cuba) and additional equipment to aid the Mexicans.

16) The TWILIGHT WAR from inception to the start of the game (in 2000) begins in LATE '97 as a series of "interventions." It goes full conventional in late '98 and The Exchange occurs on Thanksgiving day of '99. Thus most units have been scavenging for less than a year and are STILL developing those skills JUST LIKE the PCs will be (during play). The short timeframe means that there is NO RAMP-UP to a wartime economy. This will be a "Come as you are war." That's why everyone is looking in their supply depots to scavenge older AFVs and Aircraft. There simply was no major "wartime production."

17) The Exchange consists of only a few large warheads used to "knock out" power and communication grids in Europe, the US, and Russia. The rest of the nukes are "tactical" and fall from planes and Naval vessels so as to NOT trigger a "MAD" response. Thermobaric munitions are used EXTENSIVELY just like Putin did at the Second Battle of Grozny. The loss of the power grid creates sufficient chaos to cause most governments to lose control of their country.

If you look at all of the "small conflicts grown large," you can see that the ENTIRE WORLD is at war and that it just kind of "snuck up on everyone." This is how I envisioned a V2.2 timeline running.

And IF you are actually reading what my alternate timeline looks like, you can see for yourself that "cannon" goes RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW in my world.

[Adm.Lee]

Chris Lites officially stated on facebook about sixteen hours ago Poland is NOT part of the Warsaw Pact in 4th ed.

Thoughts?

This feels like a bait & switch to me, one of the reasons I backed it was the assurance that the timeline would match v1's history. Now that they have my money, "Oh, just a few touch-ups..."

It also feels like a needless and spiteful change, such as when the Confederacy re-appeared in the 3rd edition of Space:1889, after being safely dead in the first two editions. A lot of people didn't buy that edition for that reason.

[Raellus]

This feels like a bait & switch to me, one of the reasons I backed it was the assurance that the timeline would match v1's history. Now that they have my money, "Oh, just a few touch-ups..."

I'm not keen on the idea of T2k Poland being in the NATO camp either but, to be fair, AFAIK, FL never said v4 would align with the v1 timeline. They were pretty clear from pretty early on (pre-KS launch, at least) that v4 would lean closer to the v2 timeline (of which I am not a fan).

[mpipes]

There is nothing that requires the characters to be operating independent of military authority. Its easy enough to have them operating as part of a larger squad or company. It all depends on the type of campaign you want and/or players desire.

In my world, I had a bit more military strength existing, but it was no mans land in the devastated Poland or large chunk of the rest of the world. So players could be anything from a M1A1 crew in a badly depleted armored company, a group of survivors of a C-130 crash landing on a mission gone wrong, a small Spec Ops team, to the classic group stragglers from the 5th.

If you don't agree with something; change it to your likes.
I had Italy staying out till a violent coup came about with a change to NATO after TDM.
Texas WAS NEVER independent.
The Soviets managed to get a force as far south as Montana after invading Alaska.
Turkey got aid from an Israeli-Egyptian alliance and a US Corps showed up in late 1997.
France became a totalitarian Socialist regime that invaded Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany, with Spain and Portugal invading as a NATO ally response.

[Raellus]

There is nothing that requires the characters to be operating independent of military authority. Its easy enough to have them operating as part of a larger squad or company. It all depends on the type of campaign you want and/or players design.

True, but "good luck, you're on your own" is a central tenet of T2k, and what makes it different than other military-based RPGs. I've played in a few campaigns where military authority and the chain of command were given more emphasis, and all but one of them sucked. Most RPG'ers aren't interested in being bossed around by other RPG'ers based on rolled (or, more likely, self-assigned) ranks (which in this context, are purely make-believe). Operating as part of a larger military organization removes a considerable amount of player agency. There are ways around this off course- being part of a small LRRP team far behind enemy lines, for example- but the essence of T2k is being part of a small unit cut off from its parent organization, and essentially free to make its own decisions.

-

[Legbreaker]

It sounds like they took a page from my alternate history.

I think I can safely say without breaking the NDA I signed, they haven't. It's very different to what you've described.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

True, but "good luck, you're on your own" is a central tenet of T2k, and what makes it different than other military-based RPGs. I've played in a few campaigns where military authority and the chain of command were given more emphasis, and all but one of them sucked. Most RPG'ers aren't interested in being bossed around by other RPG'ers based on rolled (or, more likely, self-assigned) ranks (which in this context, are purely make-believe). Operating as part of a larger military organization removes a considerable amount of player agency. There are ways around this off course- being part of a small LRRP team far behind enemy lines, for example- but the essence of T2k is being part of a small unit cut off from its parent organization, and essentially free to make its own decisions.

-
This +1
This is exactly why GDW designed the game the way they did.
There is an article (I believe it's included with some of the Far Future publications) that states they specifically wanted the military command structure to be severely weakened or almost gone so that the PCs would be free of military control.
The aim was to allow a PC group to have the freedom to adventure like they do in games like D&D.

As stated by several people on this forum (including me), everyone is free to make their game follow whatever rules and gameworld logic that they desire but "Good luck, you're on your own" completely negates the idea that the PCs have to operate under military authority.

[Legbreaker]

By having many SMALL "flashpoints" that require "immediate attention" so that you really don't KNOW it's a WORLD WAR until it's too late.

In my own alternate timeline, I did this by...

Not bad at all.

None of that's in 4th though, not a single bit.

[Rainbow Six]

True, but "good luck, you're on your own" is a central tenet of T2k, and what makes it different than other military-based RPGs. I've played in a few campaigns where military authority and the chain of command were given more emphasis, and all but one of them sucked. Most RPG'ers aren't interested in being bossed around by other RPG'ers based on rolled (or, more likely, self-assigned) ranks (which in this context, are purely make-believe). Operating as part of a larger military organization removes a considerable amount of player agency. There are ways around this off course- being part of a small LRRP team far behind enemy lines, for example- but the essence of T2k is being part of a small unit cut off from its parent organization, and essentially free to make its own decisions.

-
Oh yeah, this, very much this. I have also played in campaigns that tried to adhere to a strict chain of command and by and large haven't found it to be an enjoyable experience.

[hell-fish]

By having many SMALL "flashpoints" that require "immediate attention" so that you really don't KNOW it's a WORLD WAR until it's too late.

In my own alternate timeline, I did this by...


I like this a lot. Good job.

[Olefin]

Oh yeah, this, very much this. I have also played in campaigns that tried to adhere to a strict chain of command and by and large haven't found it to be an enjoyable experience.

The strict chain of command can be good game as well - I personally loved the campaign we did in Iran - got to take out the Soviet commanders at the hotel in Kings Ransom and other fun missions - and in no mans land between the two armies there was plenty of the right vibe for those who wanted a broken down world - basically the command structure went right out the door once you were there

and we got sent to what was left of Pakistan to get parts for the F-16's that were still left - and take it from me it made Poland look like a walk thru the park as far as game and campaign play

[Raellus]

The strict chain of command can be good game as well

Sure. Ultimately, it's a matter of taste. You do you. That said, I don't think it's any accident that the vast majority of T2k adventure modules explicitly release the player party from the military chain of command.

-

[Olefin]

there were still chains of command in a lot of modules - but in some that chain was pretty short (i.e. for instance Satellite Down) or mentioned but not majorly detailed (Last Submarine Trilogy)

To me the chain of command modules and sourcebooks were more like The Keep on the Borderlands - i.e. you have a safe area where you can rest, buy supplies, maybe recruit new men (after a character gets killed) - and then outside the Keep its the Wild West - so even if you get sent somewhere by "The Old Man" you are pretty much on your own once you clear the "civilized area"

thats why I liked Kings Ransom - chain of command mission puts you the wild areas and leads directly to taking your chances trying to get rich from the info you gather doing it - so you get to do both styles of the game -

[Raellus]

To me the chain of command modules and sourcebooks were more like The Keep on the Borderlands - i.e. you have a safe area where you can rest, buy supplies, maybe recruit new men (after a character gets killed) - and then outside the Keep its the Wild West - so even if you get sent somewhere by "The Old Man" you are pretty much on your own once you clear the "civilized area"

That's a good analogy.

In the field, on a mission, the players are pretty much on their own.

-

[Adm.Lee]

I'm not keen on the idea of T2k Poland being in the NATO camp either but, to be fair, AFAIK, FL never said v4 would align with the v1 timeline. They were pretty clear from pretty early on (pre-KS launch, at least) that v4 would lean closer to the v2 timeline (of which I am not a fan).

You're right, v2 was what I understood.

[Adm.Lee]

I'm not keen on the idea of T2k Poland being in the NATO camp either but, to be fair, AFAIK, FL never said v4 would align with the v1 timeline. They were pretty clear from pretty early on (pre-KS launch, at least) that v4 would lean closer to the v2 timeline (of which I am not a fan).

You're right, v2 was what I understood. I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

[Fallenkezef]

You're right, v2 was what I understood. I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

The whole thing feels a bit off to me. Zero effort seems to be put into forward momentum post-launch such as sourcebooks and modules with shaky strecthgoals.

My gut says they are milking the fanbase to put out the bare minimum. I mean, ignoring all the resources they have available from such a vast fanbase?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The whole thing feels a bit off to me. Zero effort seems to be put into forward momentum post-launch such as sourcebooks and modules with shaky strecthgoals.

My gut says they are milking the fanbase to put out the bare minimum. I mean, ignoring all the resources they have available from such a vast fanbase?
Well, you are not the only who feels that way...
I own Free League's Tales From the Loop because I love the premise of the game and also the artwork that inspired the game but I find the rules system very average and it seems to be slanted toward episodic play rather than long-term campaigns (I'll relate why I think this is important down below).
I also backed this kickstarter for a few reasons even though I had some doubts about the rules system they wanted to use.

Looking at some of the other Free League products and their release schedules, it does not appear to me as though they have much (if any) interest in long term development or support of their games. They seem to be sticking pretty close to the current mentality (and this is not just Free League but most RPG producers lately) of Core +1
That is to say, the company produces the Core books and then only 1 other book to support it. If they produce another book in the future, it's meant to update or replace that +1 from before.

It also seems to me that quite a few players of Year Zero games, don't actually stick with any YZ game for a long campaign. They play a few sessions, or even a lot of sessions and then they stop and jump ship to another YZ game.
Then they play that for a while and when it's no longer fresh, they jump to another YZ game until they have done a complete circle back to the first game.
Now, I am NOT saying they all do that but I have encountered quite a few that do and I believe a number of modern rules systems encourage that sort of play - straight into the action for some quick satisfaction, no long term plans necessary or desired.
Given that design philosophy, I will not be at all surprised if the entire 4th edition product line consists of what was offered on the kickstarter and then just one or two more books and then they will be off designing some new game.

[Raellus]

Hm.

Based on the response to the Kickstarter, it appears that FL has a cash cow just asking to be milked. They stand to make a lot by producing follow-on products, but their track record seems to indicate that's not something that they normally do. It seems strange that they wouldn't try to capitalize on the success of an existing property.

Hopefully, they change their minds. Perhaps the response to the Kickstarter will inspire them to switch it up and actually produce adventure modules and source books for T2k v4. Heaven knows there's already a market for it, and if v4 is any good, that market is likely going to grow.

-

[Olefin]

Considering that they have me, Raellus and Legbreaker ready and willing to write new material and so far have managed to not have any of us writing for V4 I have to agree with you. Its great that Frank is writing the new Madonna book - but you have three writers ready to go that could have multiple sourcebooks or modules ready in very little time - and who would love to be part of the V4 effort.

To me that smacks of not really supporting the V4 game.

And that fact that they waited till the very end after a tidal wave of support - and a tidal wave of where the heck is it - to go "oh yea we might want to have the details of what is happening world wide in the initial release" shows that what they had in mind was a game centered in Poland and Sweden that lasts a few months and then on to the next game

[Lurken]

Considering that they have me, Raellus and Legbreaker ready and willing to write new material and so far have managed to not have any of us writing for V4 I have to agree with you. Its great that Frank is writing the new Madonna book - but you have three writers ready to go that could have multiple sourcebooks or modules ready in very little time - and who would love to be part of the V4 effort.


*cough* and me. But I have said to them that my book will be totally non-compatible with v4.

But you have a fair point about their outreach so far.

[Olefin]

*cough* and me. But I have said to them that my book will be totally non-compatible with v4.

But you have a fair point about their outreach so far.

oops sorry I missed you - but now that makes four authors on here (plus Frank Frey of course) who are wide open for making material for V4 - and so far only one (Frank) is on their list - plus who knows how many more who are ready and willing to get as much new official material published - and not just fan canon material - and official material makes them money after all where fan canon doesnt (unless they offer it for sale versus for free like the fanzine)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And to be absolutely brutal about it, Frank Frey is a name that has resonance within the T2k fan community because he was involved with the original game.
Getting him onboard (in this case for one reason only, that is, to rewrite Black Madonna) is pretty much the same as getting one of your astronauts/cosmonauts to advertise your space programme - it's not being done for that astronauts ability to contribute more product, it's done to cash in on the astronaut's fame.

[Targan]

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

[Legbreaker]

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

On a totally unrelated note the ANZAC book is being delayed....
The reasons for that I'm sure are apparent to some of those who've commented above, but I am unable to confirm or deny my reasons for it at this point.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

On a similar note, it's interesting to see that the Free League forums typically have two or more sections for each game they produce. Usually it's as follows: -
General
GM's Only
Swedish Corner

The section for Twilight: 2000 has only one heading - General.
This is also the situation for another non-Free League IP, The One Ring (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

One could infer from that situation, that Free League have more interest in the games they hold the IP for. Now that's not necessarily anything bad or evil, it's quite natural to want to promote the games you developed so you can earn something from all the work you put in.
But I would think that they would have extended the same "love" towards any game they produce, regardless of the IP owner.
What that says about Free League's intent towards the IPs that they don't own but are licensing, is open to speculation.

[Adm.Lee]

A little more on Poland not being in the WPact, and the Pact not existing.

This feels like a bait & switch to me, one of the reasons I backed it was the assurance that the timeline would match ... the earlier history. Now that they have my money, "Oh, just a few touch-ups..."

... I'm not particularly wedded to either timeline, I'm just put out that I (felt like I was, anyway) promised one thing before giving them money, and now they're changing something pretty major.

I've been thinking about this occasionally over the weekend, and I feel now that I may have reacted too strongly. I'm not going to demand a refund, I will attempt to give the game a fair shot when I get to see it. It's still a little bitter, but I'm not going to spend the time to try and track down where and when "I was lied to". :rolleyes: After all, I know my memory is shoddy enough that I need to take notes where it's important!

After all, as a GM, when it arrives I can always deep-six the pieces I don't like and swap in my preferences, as seen in multiple posts on this forum just recently.

Having said that, so far, it stretches my credulity that the reviving USSR, alone, could take on NATO (possibly expanded with Poland and others?) and hold on for years. Speculation: is there still a Soviet war with the PRC? That might work to the Soviet's benefit, if there isn't.

[Raellus]

Having said that, so far, it stretches my credulity that the reviving USSR, alone, could take on NATO (possibly expanded with Poland and others?) and hold on for years. Speculation: is there still a Soviet war with the PRC? That might work to the Soviet's benefit, if there isn't.

I agree with this 100%. IIRC, someone in the know mentioned that FL has the PRC allied with the USSR in v4. That evens the odds just a bit. My memory could be faulty on this point, though.

-

[Adm.Lee]

OK, 'cause a neutral PRC would be in a lot better shape to dominate the 21st century than a neutral France. IMO.

[Legbreaker]

OK, 'cause a neutral PRC would be in a lot better shape to dominate the 21st century than a neutral France. IMO.

And without strong international powers to hold them in check, dominate they would. China has long been known to have expansionist aspirations. With the US, UK, etc tied down elsewhere, what's to stop them rolling through south east asia and beyond? Harsh language and disapproving looks?

[swaghauler]

Not bad at all.

None of that's in 4th though, not a single bit.

I would hope not since I have never posted my alternate history in its entirety anywhere online. I simply use it to show that you CAN have a post PACT Russia that's dangerous to the US and NATO.

[swaghauler]

I like this a lot. Good job.

Just like your posting, it's simply a quick alternate history to validate a resurgent Russia in a V2.2 timeline. Since my players are enamored of my Africa modern-day MERC campaign, the alternate history is just gathering dust.

I do kind of wish that Free League had considered a 2030 conflict with:
Russia
China
NK
Iran
Syria
and maybe Turkey switching allegiance

Versus...

NATO
Japan
SK
The ANZACS

That could be an interesting take on Twilight 2030.

[swaghauler]

Unless you dig the new rools-lite cartoony edition's system angle, or you think there's money to be made, I have no idea why any of you guys that have published canon material for the previous editions would want to have your names associated with the new edition. Protect your reputations, I say.

Having experienced both MUTANT and FORBIDDEN LANDS, I'm not sure how they plan on handling the crunch of modern combat (full-auto, explosives, enhanced guided munitions, etc...) so I'm waiting until I can get my hands on a copy. Even if the system doesn't work for me, I'll "data mine" it like I did TW2K13. There's LOTS of good stuff in TW2K13 like the CUF rules, the scavenge rules, and the skills stuff.

[comped]

Having experienced both MUTANT and FORBIDDEN LANDS, I'm not sure how they plan on handling the crunch of modern combat (full-auto, explosives, enhanced guided munitions, etc...) so I'm waiting until I can get my hands on a copy. Even if the system doesn't work for me, I'll "data mine" it like I did TW2K13. There's LOTS of good stuff in TW2K13 like the CUF rules, the scavenge rules, and the skills stuff.

I adore a lot of the extra careers 13 had, and some of the sidebars in the timeline were fairly well written. Actually, I didn't mind the timeline as an attempt to update the game either. Not perfect, but nothing is.

[pansarskott]

On a similar note, it's interesting to see that the Free League forums typically have two or more sections for each game they produce. Usually it's as follows: -
General
GM's Only
Swedish Corner

The section for Twilight: 2000 has only one heading - General.
This is also the situation for another non-Free League IP, The One Ring (i.e. Lord of the Rings).

No need for a GM section until there's a game available, perhaps? I don't know if the other forums were divided from start. Maybe the sub-forums were added in response to how many posts are made, or the need for language-specific forums.

[Olefin]

Make your voices heard as much as you can with Free League as early and as often as you can - we made this possible not them - if we hadnt supported the Kickstarter there wouldnt have been a game - as such dont sit back and hope they release a good game with a realistic background and campaign setting

Make your voices heard because this wont be just a pdf - it will be published in paper form - and we all know how hard it is to fix it if its screwed up and already out there in printed format and they find out the hard way that they ended up pissing off a lot of the fan base because we stayed silent and counted on them to do the right thing.

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind that confirmed by the publisher this is NOT a modified V2.2 timeline - it’s V4 - a whole new timeline and campaign set up written by people who in the main have not played the game and are not members of this board or other boards - meaning that when the time comes to comment please do so - if not don’t be pissed or disappointed with the final outcome.

It will be up to them if they do listen to us - if they don’t then we may have wasted our money. But it won’t be on us that the new game fails or have issues.

And also frankly it would be nice to not have background, canon and timeline arguments or complaints for the rest of eternity on the new version - i.e. better to have input before the final version not after.

[Lurken]

I can only agree with what Olefin have said. Speak now, speak often and speak with passion about what you love about T2k and want to se in T2k:FL.