Yugoslavia

[Raellus]

Yugoslavia is one of the most enigmatic locations in T2k (v.1). There are US and Soviet forces there (three divisions a piece, and an Air Assault Brigade for the latter) but it's never made clear in either the v.1 history or the US and Soviet Vehicle Guides why they were sent there.

Yugoslavia started WWIII unified. It declared for NATO after the Soviet invasion of Romania in late December, 1996. It sent mechanized forces to help its neighbor. In August of 1997, Yugoslavia invaded northeastern Italy but the attacking forces were hurled back by the Italians. The Greeks and Albanians invaded Romania in mid-September (the Greeks ultimately annexing Macedonia, creating a rift with Albania).The country was partitioned by the Italians in early 1998. Internecine warfare broke out shortly thereafter (that's a Balkans conflict we can all remember from RL).

It's a mess. So why did the US send forces there (two light infantry divisions in the autumn of 1998, and an infantry division in late '99)? Strategically, what was the point? The Soviets sent forces to Yugoslavia from Romania after its collapse in September 1997. Again, what was the point? Yugoslavia, by that point, was no longer a threat to the WTO.

According to the US Vehicle Guide, the American divisions sent to Yugoslavia end up fighting Croatian and Albanian nationalists instead of the Soviets, Italians, or Greeks. The Soviet Vehicle guide only mentions the Red Army divisions in Yugoslavia fighting partisans. In either case, what's the point?

It seems like a sideshow. I can't understand why, in terms of strategy, either the US or Soviet Union sent forces there (especially the latter, given that its new Warsaw Pact allies, the Italians and Greeks had already defeated the Yugoslavs and ignited internecine warfare. For the US, maybe the Ploesti oil fields in neighboring Romania were the objective? But how are three infantry divisions (two of them light) going to fight their way there and arrive in any shape to eject Soviet Danube Front (consisting of two Armies and an AAB)? That's not going to happen. The v1.0 history suggests that the US 42nd ID was sent to Yugoslavia in late 1999 as a statement of sorts. If so, CivGov's competence in matters of military strategy and geopolitics should be strenuously questioned.

Did the writers have bigger plans for Yugoslavia but not get the chance to follow through on them? Is the question of why the US and/or CCCP send forces to Yugoslavia addressed in an adventure module or Challenge article? Have any of you run or played a Yugoslavian campaign?

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Challenge magazine 47 had an article titled Our Friend Albania that touches on the border region with Yugoslavia (Kosovo).
I had a quick look through my copies of Challenge and aside from that one article I don't think there was anything dealing with Yugoslavia.

[Olefin]

Especially considering that the forces were sent AFTER the Mexicans had invaded the US. So those three divisions would have been much better employed against the Soviet and Mexican forces that were on AMERICAN soil - i.e. why the hell were they sent to Yugoslavia?

Those three divisions sent to Texas would probably have retaken most of the state - or sent to CA they would have been enough to at the least send the Mexicans running back to San Diego

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor?

FYI the write up for the 42nd has a massive typo in it - it says it was dispatched to Europe in Autumn 1999 - then says it fought the Croatians on 10/7/98.

[Southernap]

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Plus NYC is in absolute chaos and you send the 42nd and its tanks to Yugoslavia and leave NYC in the hands of a light infantry division that has no heavy armor?
The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

[Raellus]

See page 26 and 27 of the V1.0 book. It lays out the actions of the CENTAG that would had US forces land in Jugoslavia/Yugoslavia. NATO was driving into southern Germany to seize the industrial region that borders along the Czech border region. While the Romanians and Jugoslaivians army was driving north to try and assist and break any lines of communication between the PACT and the Italian/Greek army that had occupied Jugoslavia. The offensive was wasted by the end of the year. It says that the Jugoslavian drive was held up at Lake Balaton, which is located in Hungary. So assume that the Jugoslavians, Romanians, and US forces were driving north up to Hungary and meet up with the German IV and V corps which were in Southern Germany (see the W. German OOB in NATO vehicle guide) that were driving south to meet up.

So more than likely those units from the US were sent to try and help bolster the Jugoslavian push against Italians and make the meet up with the CENTAG and capture those industrial zones not damaged in 1997 of Southern Germany, Northern Italy, and Czech region. The move was probably made before the actions of Mexico and the Soviet forces in Mexico invaded the southern states. At which probably when the ships were at sea that the Mexicans came across and well past the point of radio communication to come back.

Even money guessing the total collapse of all command and control as well as the governmental split in 1997-98, that the JCS only knew what the DIA could tell them from what limited human intelligence could gather and report back via long communications (there manual makes references that even radios are heavily damaged due to EMP effects and and limited to LOS [both due to radiation in the air and real world applications] so you have to daisy-chain radio data back to someplace and hope the message stays together correctly). In my mind then it makes it reasonable that forces were already in transit to their ports of embarking or were embarking when the Mexican's cross the Rio Grande, again if not already at sea. So trying to turn them around to respond to the newest threat wasn't considered until those ships were past a point of no return compared to the fuel already expended.

Thanks. You're right, the timing of the two US light divisions' arrival in Yugoslavia does fit with the Yugoslav's offensive into Hungary, so it stands to reason that they were sent to assist in said. The problematic bit, though, is that in April, the Italians partitioned Yugoslavia into Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia, and the Greeks annexed Macedonia. It seems odd that there's still an intact, unified Yugoslavian army after that, let alone one that would launch a major drive into Hungary.

Also, the Romanians aren't mentioned as being involved at all. According to the v.1 history, the Romanian military was shattered in September of 1997 and the survivors were fighting as partisans in the Carpathians- they would have had their hands full. At no point after 9/15/97 were there less than 7 Soviet divisions in Romania so I just don't see the Romanians participating in a major offensive anywhere other than on home soil.

CivGov sending 42nd ID in late '99 still doesn't make sense, though. Even with fried long-distance coms, by then, CivGov would have to know that turning things around in Yugoslavia was nothing more than a forlorn hope. And by then, Mexico and New America are firmly established as major threats to home soil (not to mention the potential of fighting MilGov forces). The only thing I can think of is that Romania declared its allegiance to CivGov in the spring of 1999, so perhaps sending 42nd ID was a show of solidarity by CivGov. If so, it was a very expensive- wasteful, even- symbolic gesture.

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Strong point. Tanks and IFVs might be useful in the suburbs, but in the built-up areas of the city, they'd be extremely vulnerable to Molotovs tossed from upper floors. If the OPFOR has access to LAW-type weapons, fahgettaboudit!

[Rainbow Six]

Rae, I’m fairly confident that’s a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division’s 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

What I don’t get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don’t claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we’re at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I’d have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

[Raellus]

Rae, I’m fairly confident that’s a typo and the writers intended for all three Divisions to arrive in 1998. If you look at the US Army Vehicle Guide it states that the 76th and 80th Divisions both came under the command of IV US Corps when they arrived in Yugoslavia in late 1998. The US Army Vehicle Guide also states that IV US Corps HQ arrived in Yugoslavia in the same convoy as the 42nd Division’s 2nd Brigade and for IV Corps to have taken command of the 76th and 80th it follows that it (IV Corps) must have been in situ in 1998. Also, (as has been mentioned) the 42nd is stated as having gone into action against Croatian forces in October 1998.

I'd totally agree with you if the v.1 history didn't support a late 1999 date for the dispatch of 42nd ID. It doesn't actually specify what unit was sent, but the history states that CivGov initiated the late war reinforcements, so the timelines match up.

The reference about IV Corps HQ accompanying 42nd ID suggests that, in late 1999, CivGov was trying to assume command of the US forces that had been in-country since mid-'98.

What I don’t get is how GDW worked out the relations between the different factions. I don’t claim to be an expert in Balkan politics, but based on where we’re at right now in the real world, the idea of the US being allied with the Serbs against the Croatians seems to be me to be mixed up. I’d have expected Croatia to be the pro NATO faction and Serbia the pro Pact faction.

I agree, but I have a theory to explain this. The Italians partition Yugoslavia in the spring of '98 but, in the summer, the Yugoslavian army tries to link up with NATO forces in Hungary. My hypothesis is that this rump Yugoslavian army was made up of a Serbian majority. Since the Serbs were supporting NATO, and the US presumably sent those two light IDs to support that [majority Serbian] army driving into Hungary, the Croats got pissed off and got in the American's way. The US Army Vehicle guide mentions at least one of the US light IDs fighting Croatian separatists. The most likely port of entry for the US forces is Split, which is located in present-day Croatia. It actually seems kind of plausible.

At the same time, the Soviet forces sent from Romania in '98 most likely would have entered Serbian territory, perhaps provoking a strong anti-Soviet response from the locals. So, in this scenario, the Serbs remain aligned with NATO, and the Croats join the other side. This theory seems to line up with the end state established by the game writers, at least. I don't know if this alignment is what they were intending, or whether it was established by accident because they didn't have a firm grasp on Balkans history/politics, etc.

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[Rainbow Six]

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

From the US Army Vehicle Guide (bolding mine)

In the autumn of 1999, the [42nd] division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia. Upon arrival it came under com- mand of US IV Corps, the headquarters of which arrived in the same convoy as the division's 2nd Brigade. The division entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 10/7/98.

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

On 8/2/98, the [76th] division began moving overland to Virginia and suffered considerable casualties en route from bandit ambushes. The division arrived on the eastern seaboard in early October and began deploying to Jugoslavia by sea in late October. Upon arrival it came under command of US IV Corps and first entered combat on 11/5/98 against units of the Albanian Peoples Liberation Front.

The [80th] division was formed on 7/20/98 by redesignation of the 80th Training Division (U.S. Army Reserve) in Richmond, Virginia. In October of 1998 the division was deployed by sea to Jugoslavia where it came under command of the US IV Corps and entered combat against Croatian Nationalist Army units on 11/1/98.

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Personally, I take the view that all of IV Corps arrived in 1998, which would be consistent with the 42nd going into action against Croat forces in 1998.

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

[Spartan-117]

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.' ;)

[Rainbow Six]

Maybe. Or maybe I now have a late Rad Zone contest entry involving 'rumors of a time-machine in Jugoslavia.' ;)
LOL...I was going to mention blue police boxes. Or a Delorean.

There's also a brief reference to the 42nd in Armies of the Night

By the summer of 1998, it became obvious that the harvest from the midwest was going to be very small and virtually impossible to transport. The newly formed 78th Infantry Division was assigned to New York City, replacing the detachments of the 42nd (which were being deployed to Jugoslavia).

Now, it's not conclusive as it doesn't mention an actual deployment date so I suppose they could have spent a year preparing for deployment but I doubt it...

[Raellus]

Sorry, I don't agree about the 42nd. I'm convinced it's a typo.

That's cool. I'm just trying to reconcile canon.

So there's a contradiction there already. It cannot have arrived in Yugoslavia in the autumn of 1999 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1998. One of those dates is wrong.

Yep, and the date that's wrong could be the 1998 one. 42nd ID could have arrived in Autumn of '99 and gone into action against Croat units in October 1999. That's entirely plausible.

As for IV Corps, it's stated in the write ups for the 76th and 80th Divisions as already being in country in 1998.

That's not in dispute.

The only way that's consistent with the HQ element of IV Corps arriving in 1999 is if the rest of IV Corps deployed in 1998 without its HQ element (and then waited for a year for its HQ element to arrive).

Not necessarily. Two light infantry divisions does not a corps make. If they were sent to support the Yugoslavian army's drive into Hungary in mid-1998, it's entirely possible that intention was to place the two US divisions under Yugoslavian command for the duration of the offensive. As it turned out, they couldn't link up with the Yugoslavs. There's really no reason that they couldn't still operate for a year or so without a dedicated corps HQ.

My reasoning is that, after the Yugoslavian gov't recognizes CivGov's legitimacy in the Spring of 1999 (as per the v.1 history), CivGov decides to lay claim to the two US divisions stuck in Yugoslavia, thus solidifying CivGov's presence in SE Europe, so it sends along a Corps HQ when it dispatches 42nd ID to Europe as reinforcements in the autumn of '99.

The v.1 history states, "In the autumn [of 1999], the dispatch of troops to Europe resumed, although only as a trickle. Initiated by the civilian government... the call-ups affected only the Atlantic coast..."

The 42nd ID checks off all of those boxes. Atlantic Coast- check; deployed by CivGov- check; arrived Autumn '99- check. AFAIK, it's the only US division in the US Army Vehicle Guide mentioned as being deployed to Europe, by CivGov, in late 1999. It all fits, but for that one typo. It's all circumstantial, but the majority of the evidence supports 1999 as being the correct date.

It may not be pretty, but it all lines up.

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[Olefin]

And MilGov was organizing forces to go after the Mexican invasion in mid-1998- if you look at the US Army Sourcebook there are repeated references to units being sent into action against the Mexicans - i.e. if the comms are that badly fried how did some units get contacted and sent into action and others didnt?

And a three division Corps - especially one that had at least a division with heavy armor- would have stopped the Mexicans cold most likely and probably taken care of the Texian Legion once and for all in Texas.

Plus how the heck was CivGov going to support the troops they sent to Yugoslavia? At least the units in Germany and Poland and Austria had some logistics and remaining ammo - but once those three units arrive in Yugoslavia they are basically on their own.

FYI I also agree that the authors didnt do their research on the people's of Yugoslavia - the Croats would have been allies for sure of the US not the Serbs - the Serbs have always been the ally of the Russians. And given the real world events of what happened in Yugoslavia I dont see the Bosnians as being pro-Soviet either. A much more likely alignment is the Croats joining up with US forces along with the Bosnians and the Serbs joining up with the Soviets - with the Greeks and the Macedonians and Albanians fighting among themselves and the Slovenes trying to support German and Austrian forces

[Raellus]

Like I always say, you're free to do what you like with your T2kU. I'm trying to find a way to reconcile what's in canon. I think I've figured out a plausible way* to arrive at what's established in the v1 history and vehicle guides. It ain't pretty, but it works- the pieces fit. If you prefer to go a different route, more power to you.

I find canon-bashing to be kind of a futile exercise. It is what it is, and no one's going to change it. As Ref's, though, we're free to modify it to suit our own sensibilities. In my mind, it's better to find ways to make canon work than to RETCON it, but that's just my POV and I'm not trying to push it on anyone else.

It'll be interesting to see what Free League does with Yugoslavia, if they touch on it at all.

*Thanks again to Southernmap for finding the missing piece- a good reason for the US to send two light infantry divisions to Yugoslavia in 1998.

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[pmulcahy11b]

I'm not sure about the Serb / Croat thing. I need to take a deeper dive on that.

My mother is Croatian; Croatians HATE Serbs and vice versa. It's racist, etc. but there it is. It's long, deep, unreasoning hatred that goes back to the days that the Ottoman Empire was the local superpower. In addition, the Serbs tend to side with whoever is the winner -- they were the first to side with the Nazis, and Austro-Hungarians, and Tito. (As a matter of fact, Tito is the only this that drew some Croats and Serbs together.) But my mother still distrusts Serbs, even though she cannot give you many logical reasons why.

[bash]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998? The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia"? There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

My problems:

The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic?
By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med?
Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions? It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.


Now I could maybe buy a POMCUS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POMCUS) setup where there's vehicles and supplies in Yugoslavia but they need warm (trained) bodies to operate them. So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

[Olefin]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998? The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia"? There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

My problems:

The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic?
By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med?
Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions? It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.


Now I could maybe buy a POMCUS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POMCUS) setup where there's vehicles and supplies in Yugoslavia but they need warm (trained) bodies to operate them. So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

And keep in mind that there would still be Italian and Greek naval ships left as well - and all it takes is one or two destroyers to really screw up your day if you dont have any escorts.

And you definitely need a port in at least decent shape to disembark the tanks of the 42nd - you can get troops and mortars and even towed howitzers off a hell of a lot easier than a bunch of tanks

[Raellus]

I think a more general question is why would any governing power in CONUS even think of deploying forces overseas in 1998? The 76th was attacked by bandits moving through Virginia. Who then thought "you know what it's cool send them to Yugoslavia"? There's enough problems in CONUS where even two under strength light divisions could do a lot of good.

You're right, but canon says it happens, so I'm trying to answer those questions. The best I can come up with ATM is that the Pentagon believes it can win the war in Europe, after which it could bring most of its troops home to eject the Mexican military and restore law an order.

As for Yugoslavia, it shares a border with Romania, a new NATO nation in which canon tells us there are oil fields/refineries still capable of producing fuel.

My problems:

The US Navy essentially ceases to exist as a force by 1998. What sort of escort will a dozen slow-ass freighters have crossing the Atlantic?
By 1998 (IIRC from Med Cruise) Gilbralter is a glowing chunk of rock and the French practically blockage the Straight of Gibraltar. They're going to let an American convoy pass into the Med?
Does Yugoslavia even have an adequate port to disembark the two divisions? It's probably a dozen ships, you'd need a decent sized port to disembark the divisions in good order.



Those are legit, but I don't think any of the obstacles presented are insurmountable

-The v1 history says a few naval vessels are are cobbled together to serve as convoy escorts.

-Nuking Gibraltar is not going to close the straits. Now the French navy, that's another proposition. But if the US made clear through diplomatic channels that the convoy was en route to the eastern Med, why would the French risk trying to stop them? Does France really want to risk going to war with the US (especially in the nuclear phase of the conflict) just to display dominance in the western Med?

-Split's got decent port facilities. Neither of the divisions sent in 1998 had heavy armor. The 42nd ID only has a dozen M60s or so. Split could handle that.

So a dozen airliners are cobbled together and the personnel are flown over with their equipment to use the in-country vehicles/supplies. They could be in Yugoslavia in a day. A relatively small forward force could set up an airport or two.

That would definitely be faster, but if the Greek and Italian navies could stop a sea convoy, their air forces could stop some airliners. It's more likely that, by mid-98, the Greek and Italian navies had been effectively neutralized, and/or the USN escort force was strong enough to deter them or keep them at bay. And ships are better at transporting bulk supplies (rations, ammo, etc.) than aircraft.

[bash]

Nuking Gibraltar is not going to close the straits. Now the French navy, that's another proposition. But if the US made clear through diplomatic channels that the convoy was en route to the eastern Med, why would the French risk trying to stop them?

I don't mention Gilbralter being nuked to suggest the straight would be closed. It's does mean there's no friendly force/port for an American convoy in the Strait. By 1998 I wouldn't consider the French as allies, not enemies but definitely not allies. I don't see the French having any reason to let an American convoy into the Med unless it was specifically to evacuate American forces.

Not everything has to make sense but it's one of those things that just sounds really weird and doesn't make any sense. The writers did it for a reason but it's still weird looking back on it.

If the Greek and Italian navies could stop a sea convoy, their air forces could stop some airliners. It's more likely that, by mid-98, the Greek and Italian navies had been effectively neutralized, and/or the USN escort force was strong enough to deter them or keep them at bay.

I would assume the Italian and Greek navies are coral reefs and their air forces non-existent by 1998. If the French are going to let an armed American convoy sail into the Med I don't see why they won't let some airliners through. They'll have a faster transit, you know they don't carry heavy weapons, and if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction they'd get shot down.

[Raellus]

I don't mention Gilbralter being nuked to suggest the straight would be closed. It's does mean there's no friendly force/port for an American convoy in the Strait. By 1998 I wouldn't consider the French as allies, not enemies but definitely not allies. I don't see the French having any reason to let an American convoy into the Med unless it was specifically to evacuate American forces.

Right, but why risk war with the US by refusing the convoy passage? The US has already proven itself more than willing to huck a nuke or several at its enemies. Is that a risk the French would take to stop a convoy headed for Yugoslavia, a country in which it has little to no strategic interest c. 1998 (compared to other parts of the world)? Americans in Yugoslavia are not going to be able to help Germany stop France from annexing the Rhineland. Why turn them back so they could divert to NW Europe instead?

I would assume the Italian and Greek navies are coral reefs and their air forces non-existent by 1998. If the French are going to let an armed American convoy sail into the Med I don't see why they won't let some airliners through. They'll have a faster transit, you know they don't carry heavy weapons, and if they so much as sneeze in the wrong direction they'd get shot down.

Maybe so, but the Italians and Greeks still presumably have operational SAMs. As recent events have shown, airliners are very vulnerable to SAMs.

As you pointed out, when it comes to the Balkans, the writers made some decisions that are pretty hard to explain/justify, but that's what I'm trying to do.

[Jason Weiser]

The answer to this would be MOUT, Military Operations in Urban Terran, all the tactics manuals says to keep heavy armor out of major cities. The threats from above to armor is just too dangerous as well as hostile forces making easy tank traps of all manner that keeps armor moving to specific kill zones. See some of the photos from the Russian experiences in Chechnya with their armor being massacred. That is why in the real world, the Russians started to develop armor that basically vaporized whole buildings with a metric butt ton of guns and rockets. If not having heavy bombers come over and raining theater ballistic missiles into an area and level whole city block. Which would allow for their armored forces to move thru a city.

Similar, examining the Allied Forces experience going through the German forces in Europe and the German forces experiences in Russia showed that armor even then would be dangerous. Which lead to the Soviets to develop the assault guns with a 122m to 152mm gun installed and the Germans to do things like the Strumpanzer and Strumtiger. While the Allied forces never developed specific urban assault vehicles.

There are some other considerations?

1. The fact is, heavy equipment on the streets of NYC when it's in the grips of chaos isn't going to improve anyone's calm either. Light and calm might have been a thought of someone in charge, but here's a question? The 78th was loyal to MilGov, but the 42nd sided with CivGov. Was CivGov's deployment of the 42nd one of those "dirty tricks" alluded to in the v1 Referee's Guide? "Hey, let's force MilGov to worry about policing NYC, we've got the troops and the means to send them, let's show everyone we're just as capable as they are to still reinforce Europe!" (No comment about how dubious a decision this is). And, here's an open question? Who in the heck did the NY State Government side with? They never did establish that. (Nor did they for most of the other state governments, not that many of them are intact by 2000?)

2. Consider the other divisions sent, IIRC, were light divisions formed from Training divisions, which means a cadre of DSs and other training and support staff formed around a mass of half-trained basic trainees? This cannot portend well for these ersatz divisions. It's one thing to use them against marauders, or lawless elements in the US, but send them to Europe and sic them on the Soviets et. al without some means of "stiffening?" Probably not a good idea (Probably the only good idea in the entire enterprise). I can so see a staff officer at IV Corps saying as they embarked "Is this trip really necessary?" I just cannot see the military necessity for this at all. Even before the Mexicans invade, let alone after. But, there's plenty of real-life examples of military stupidity abounding.

3. As for the French, well it's not just the nukes. If I am France, I don't mind if the American governments fritter away their remaining strength in useless gestures to impress governments who could care less. It helps me in the long run. And if the Americans are forced to ask France for help getting out? Sure, of course we'll help...no charge at all. But the world will see a broken "superpower" being helped out of a jam of it's own creation by a resurgent France. And that is something France wants the neighborhood to see.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

[Raellus]

Jason, those are some good points.

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

I think this is overstating the case. Certainly, having MBTs is better than not having them, but by mid-to-late 1998, the Yugoslavs probably have very few, if any, MBTs of their own. They've been at war for at least a year and a half, and have been fighting one or more (usually more) of the following armies- Soviet, Hungarian, Italian, Greek, and Albanian- during that time. If the Yugolsavs have any operational MBTs by the time the Americans arrive, they're probably antiquated T34-85s. The US light divisions certainly would certainly arrive with enough AT weapons to handle whatever tanks the Croats (for example) could manage to throw at them.

The Soviets show up in Yugoslavia shortly after the Americans but, AFAIK, there's no mention of the two superpowers fighting each other in Yugoslavia. The VGs mention the US fighting Croatian and Albanian separatists, and the Soviets fighting "Yugoslavian partisans".

Considering how long Tito's partisans (no tanks) survived against the Wehrmacht (some tanks) in WW2, those two American light divisions could last the two years between their arrival and the T2k "start date" of July 2000 or so without the 42nd ID's tanks.

Also, it's quite possible that the 42nd lost some of its tanks during the Atlantic crossing. There would probably be a few Soviet subs still lurking about in mid-98 and beyond.

[swaghauler]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

I have to question the need for lots of ships to transport 58 tanks and 120 M113s. The Algol class Fast ROROs (Roll-on-roll-off) operated by SEALIFT Command wouldn't break a sweat hauling that and they can do it at 30 knots sustained speed. The USS Denobula carried all of the 10th's SEVEN HUNDRED TRUCKS with room to spare and it is rated for about 750 heavy wheeled vehicles.
In fact, these ROROs are built like parking garages with ramps connecting the various decks. There is a heavy ramp both at the stern and along the side amidships with a lighter ramp unfolding from the bow. In Somalia, we would drive into them from the amidships ramp down into the bowels of the ship and begin a caravan up each deck before leaving from the bow ramp on the weather deck. Each deck would have palletized supplies stationed in the middle of the cargo deck for loading by overhead jib cranes into our trucks with different cargos (food, ammo, medical supplies, and repair parts) on each deck. We would pull onto the outside travel lane painted on a deck, get pallets loaded by crane and then drive up to the next deck for their cargo drop. Repeating this level by level until we had all our supplies. We would then drive down the bow ramp to leave. It was both fast and efficient

The new BOB HOPE class RORO, which was commissioned in 1998, can carry 1,000 heavy vehicles plus freight in her bowels.

Carrying a couple of hundred vehicles is a JOKE to SEALIFT Command.

[Olefin]

I have to question the need for lots of ships to transport 58 tanks and 120 M113s. The Algol class Fast ROROs (Roll-on-roll-off) operated by SEALIFT Command wouldn't break a sweat hauling that and they can do it at 30 knots sustained speed. The USS Denobula carried all of the 10th's SEVEN HUNDRED TRUCKS with room to spare and it is rated for about 750 heavy wheeled vehicles.
In fact, these ROROs are built like parking garages with ramps connecting the various decks. There is a heavy ramp both at the stern and along the side amidships with a lighter ramp unfolding from the bow. In Somalia, we would drive into them from the amidships ramp down into the bowels of the ship and begin a caravan up each deck before leaving from the bow ramp on the weather deck. Each deck would have palletized supplies stationed in the middle of the cargo deck for loading by overhead jib cranes into our trucks with different cargos (food, ammo, medical supplies, and repair parts) on each deck. We would pull onto the outside travel lane painted on a deck, get pallets loaded by crane and then drive up to the next deck for their cargo drop. Repeating this level by level until we had all our supplies. We would then drive down the bow ramp to leave. It was both fast and efficient

The new BOB HOPE class RORO, which was commissioned in 1998, can carry 1,000 heavy vehicles plus freight in her bowels.

Carrying a couple of hundred vehicles is a JOKE to SEALIFT Command.

The convoys in 1998 per the canon had CivGov and MilGov scraping up some cargo ships to get the troops across with a few escorts - I agree with you those RORO ships could handle the 42nd easily - but from how its described its more like ramshackle old freighters and transports that are pretty much either the bottom of the barrel or below the bottom of the barrel

[Olefin]

Jason, those are some good points.



I think this is overstating the case. Certainly, having MBTs is better than not having them, but by mid-to-late 1998, the Yugoslavs probably have very few, if any, MBTs of their own. They've been at war for at least a year and a half, and have been fighting one or more (usually more) of the following armies- Soviet, Hungarian, Italian, Greek, and Albanian- during that time. If the Yugolsavs have any operational MBTs by the time the Americans arrive, they're probably antiquated T34-85s. The US light divisions certainly would certainly arrive with enough AT weapons to handle whatever tanks the Croats (for example) could manage to throw at them.

The Soviets show up in Yugoslavia shortly after the Americans but, AFAIK, there's no mention of the two superpowers fighting each other in Yugoslavia. The VGs mention the US fighting Croatian and Albanian separatists, and the Soviets fighting "Yugoslavian partisans".

Considering how long Tito's partisans (no tanks) survived against the Wehrmacht (some tanks) in WW2, those two American light divisions could last the two years between their arrival and the T2k "start date" of July 2000 or so without the 42nd ID's tanks.

Also, it's quite possible that the 42nd lost some of its tanks during the Atlantic crossing. There would probably be a few Soviet subs still lurking about in mid-98 and beyond.

I doubt there are any Soviet subs left by mid-98- if Last Submarine's description of the US and Soviet Navies is accurate. And also the US Army Sourcebook was very clear on what units got hit getting across - i.e. it mentioned several by name that ran into Soviet raiders and lost a lot of men and equipment getting to the front - and none of those three units have any losses mentioned in transit

Except one of the light infantry divisions that took some pretty good losses just crossing Virginia!

[Louied]

Keep in mind that the 42nd had over 120 M113 type vehicles and 58 tanks at full strength - and they had been in the US the whole time basically on riot control duties - so they probably went over at close to full strength

They may only have 6 operational M60A4's by June 2000 but thats probably more a function of being in combat a year and a half, no replacements and most importantly probably zero spare parts given they are the only tanks that got sent to Yugoslavia - and no parts to draw on from the rest of the US forces

So you need a decent amount of ships to transport that many tanks - also it appears to be multiple convoys - if you look at the wording on the three divisions its pretty clear they didnt all come over together

76th Inf - left the US in late Oct 98
80th - left US possibly with the 76th

42nd - assuming the date for starting combat against the Croatians was not a typo they got there first - i.e. they entered combat on 10/7/98 while the other two units were still on the water

and they had to have been there or the two light inf divisions would not have survived a year without them - all that would have been left would be shredded remnants most likely without the heavy armor that the 42nd had

Olefin,
By 1989 42 ID had three (3) Tank Bns, 1 Mech Bn & 6 H-Series Inf Bns
From my research it was one of the ARNG Inf Divs that they were going to experiment with a 3 AR 3 Mech 3 AA 1 TLAT Bn mixture.

[Olefin]

Olefin,
By 1989 42 ID had three (3) Tank Bns, 1 Mech Bn & 6 H-Series Inf Bns
From my research it was one of the ARNG Inf Divs that they were going to experiment with a 3 AR 3 Mech 3 AA 1 TLAT Bn mixture.

I am going with the unit as described in the US Army V1 Sourcebook as to how many tank and mech battalions it had - didnt check the V2.2. to see if its the same

[Louied]

Ole,

Forgot about that, I was thinking IRL

[Olefin]

Ole,

Forgot about that, I was thinking IRL

actually thats a good point for V4 - will they modify the units to match real life or keep them with V1 or V2.2. sourcebook descriptions?

[Louied]

Olefin,

Great question, besides the ARNG Inf Divs, 9 ID was slated to become a Mech Div but in the interim was supposed to field both Mech & Motorised units.

[Raellus]

Does Last Submarine categorically state that there are no operational Soviet diesel or nuclear attack subs by mid-'98?

And also the US Army Sourcebook was very clear on what units got hit getting across - i.e. it mentioned several by name that ran into Soviet raiders and lost a lot of men and equipment getting to the front - and none of those three units have any losses mentioned in transit.

The VG's aren't super detailed or specific about how vehicle losses were incurred in every case. It's perfectly plausible that a ship carrying 42 ID's tanks was sunk with minimal loss of life, and therefore didn't warrant a mention.

Alternatively, perhaps the navy couldn't find a merchantman (or more than one) capable of carrying more than 10-20 MBTs so most of the 42nd IDs tanks were left in the States?

On the other hand, if 42nd ID was in Yugoslavia as long as some of you think (based on the conflicting dates given in the USAVG), then combat attrition is a perfectly reasonable explanation for its small number of M60 MBTs in July, 2000.

[Olefin]

Last Submarine pretty much indicates that there arent any subs left except the two US subs that are mentioned - keep in mind how surprised the captain is in Boomer that the Soviets may have an operational Boomer that is still around - and its very late 1998 by the time the convoys sail for Yugoslavia - given the fuel condition I dont see the Soviets sending out diesel subs into the Med - which is the probable location of any interception - i.e. the US shipping lanes by then were either around the Cape to the Middle East or to Germany and the UK - going the Med route probably would be a total surprise to the Soviets -

as in "what the heck are they doing send three divisions thru the Med?"

I am betting the lack of tanks by mid 2000 is much more so the lack of spares - that there are probably a lot of M60A4's sitting in US rear area depots that are non-operational - or its fuel considerations and they may have a lot of tanks left but literally no fuel to operate more than a few at a time

similar to what the Germans went thru in spring 45 - they literally lost hundreds of tanks because there was no fuel to run them and they got overrun at rear area bases and supply depots

[Raellus]

Last Submarine pretty much indicates that there arent any subs left except the two US subs that are mentioned - keep in mind how surprised the captain is in Boomer that the Soviets may have an operational Boomer that is still around - and its very late 1998 by the time the convoys sail for Yugoslavia - given the fuel condition I dont see the Soviets sending out diesel subs into the Med - which is the probable location of any interception - i.e. the US shipping lanes by then were either around the Cape to the Middle East or to Germany and the UK - going the Med route probably would be a total surprise to the Soviets -

"Pretty much"? I was hoping for a quote or something. Assuming it's an accurate representation of what is stated in Last Sub, Boomers were priority targets from day 1 of the war (routinely tagged and tailed during peacetime) so it makes sense that few, if any, of them would still be afloat in mid-t-late '98. But, Boomers and attack subs are different beasts. It's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be any Soviets attack subs still operating in the Atlantic in '98 (although I agree it's unlikely that any would still be operating in the Med, given it's limited routes of ingress and egress).

An alternative explanation is that a ship carrying 42nd ID's armor was sunk by an Italian* or Greek diesel boat. They're quiet and the Adriatic is their backyard.

*In my treatment of Kenya, Lions of Twilight, I had an Italian diesel sink the ship that was transporting the vehicles of 173rd's motorized battalion to Mombasa, which is why it ended up equipped with French armored cars.

-

[Rainbow Six]

Does Last Submarine categorically state that there are no operational Soviet diesel or nuclear attack subs by mid-'98?

If you accept Challenge as canon (I know some people do and some people don't; I also know it's often used as a reference point for a later article about some US Navy destroyers) the Poles have one

Challenge Magazine 25, Looter's Guide to the Baltic Coast
The current Polish naval presence at Gydnia consists of one Whiskey Class submarine, three Osa class guided missile patrol boats, five P6 Class patrol torpedo boats, and one T43 class ocean minesweeper

If the Poles have one it probably stands to reason that the Russians have a few (the Poles only had four to start with, so that represents 25% of their submarine fleet having survived to 2000 - that's impressive, although granted IRL they were all retired in 1986.)

[Raellus]

Yeah, if the Poles can keep a sub operational in the Baltic, it stands to reason that the Soviets could keep at least a handful of attack subs alive in the Atlantic through 1998. In what time frame does Challenge say that Polish sub is operational?

Also, I checked the color plate of the 42nd ID's M60A4 in the USVG and it's labelled as being from Spring, 1999. So, those of you who argued that the 42nd ID arrived in Yugoslavia in 1998, with or around the same time as the two US light infantry divisions, you're probably right, and I am probably wrong. :o

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

While I know this is not Soviet, in regards to submarines, in Twilight Encounters, the adventure "What's Polish for G'Day" states that the French have at least one operational submarine operating in the Baltic although it doesn't mention any details about the sub.
It's implied that this sub travelled to Australia then back to Europe and probably will return the Australians home after the mission.

[Legbreaker]

While I know this is not Soviet, in regards to submarines, in Twilight Encounters, the adventure "What's Polish for G'Day" states that the French have at least one operational submarine operating in the Baltic although it doesn't mention any details about the sub.
It's implied that this sub travelled to Australia then back to Europe and probably will return the Australians home after the mission.

Ugh. That one short scenario with that one throwaway line about the "Organisation of Non-irradiated Nations" has perhaps given me more headaches than just about anything else over the last couple of years!

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Well considering that the Aussies are listed as having said it in a jokey manner, you could write it off as being exactly that, a joke, with no substance behind it other than France and Australia co-operating on what could well be the only time they co-operate on such a scale.

[Southernap]

Okay so if we are talking about the convoy and its loses while in route lets pull somethings apart and think about this logically.

The presumption that any RO/RO ships would have survived post 1997 is interesting. Even more so based on how the write ups of the naval combat in the core rule book, "Last Submarine" trilogy, "Gateway to the Spanish Main", "Going Home" and the various Challenge write ups. Effectively all the pre-war fast supply ships and most modern merchant ships are sitting at the bottom of the ocean either from hostile attack or from being caught in port when the nuclear strikes were occurring. Nearly all of them agree that the major fleets of the pre-war era have quit to exist and that there are very few of the warring nations and neutral shipping in the combat zones that exists above small intra-coastal shipping. Anything that seems to go across the world is doing so at great risk to not only breaking down when it arrives or to attack by whatever lays out there past the edge of the "known" world.

If we are talking about the US trying to pull together some shipping, then we are talking about then for the US Department of Transportation Maritime Administration National Defense Ready Reserve Fleet (https://www.maritime.dot.gov/national-defense-reserve-fleet), the ships at the various "Ghost Fleet" stations, such as one at James River, VA located near Fort Eustis in the Chesapeake Bay. The other locations at least in pre-1989 timeline would have included:

Beaumount Texas
Suisan Bay, CA
Long Beach, CA
Bremeton, WA
Buzzard Bay, MA
Philadelphia, PA
Norfolk, VA
Newport News, VA
Alameda, CA
Baltimore, MD
New Orleans, LA
James River, VA

Which again most of these regions have a nuclear strike at or very nearby them in 1997 and therefore aren't giving up much. The few in non-targeted zones probably have the wrong types of ships to move any armor of any healthy amount successfully and rapidly offload it.

That list of places is just to name a few places. I have been near the one in the James river about 15 yrs ago. Which is a great place to go fishing. If you can do it and not get hassled by the game warden or security Most of the ships then were retired 1970s or some 1980s era bulk freighters or old freighters that were still using King Post (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_post) cranes. Which is how the old amphibious cargo ships could do offload things like tanks into landing craft or on to piers. Most of them were poorly maintained and more then a few were slowly sinking at their anchorages due to poor maintenance.

So that said, we are probably looking in late 1997-1998 time frame. So very old cobble together freighters that use bulk cargo loading options and if we are lucky maybe a single larger more modern containerized freighter, but that is going to be on the very small size compared to ones that would have been in services in lines like Marsek or such in the period right before the war.
___________________________________
Okay all that said, so potential threats to the convoy post 2000 from naval units. All through the second page of this thread is the assumption about submarines. So lets talk about who had submarines and who didn't

Here are some nations during the Cold War from the Eastern North American Seaboard to Yugoslavia/Jugoslavia coast that has submarines


Cuba
France
Spain
Libya
Italy
Greece
Turkey
Egypt
Canada

Out of that list only the French have nuclear powered submarines. The rest of those nations use some diesel-electric power for their submarines. The Cuban, Egyptian, Libyan submarines are some variant of a Soviet Whiskey or Foxtrot class. While the Greeks and Turks both had damned near clones of Type 209 submarine that was built by the Germans in the 1960s. That isn't an exhaustive list either, nearly all the major naval powers of South America had a submarine of either US WW2 vintage or some licensed copy of a German Type 206/209.

Trying to find a diesel-electric is a serious PITA. Let me put it this way as a good descriptor of ASW combat against a capable submarine, put your ear to your flashlight with the light on and try to hear the battery running.
___________________________________
It seems like a sideshow. I can't understand why, in terms of strategy, either the US or Soviet Union sent forces there (especially the latter, given that its new Warsaw Pact allies, the Italians and Greeks had already defeated the Yugoslavs and ignited internecine warfare.

So Yugoslavia/Jugoslavia (pick a dang spelling preference) was a weird country during the cold war. It was socialist, Tito was a socialist, however it was never fully went full bore in with the Soviets. If I remember reading the history right, Tito went from killing Germans to killing the NKVD for being the sons of unmarried women that they were. Going even further into the height of the Cold War during the period of Detente there was attempts by various presidents from Nixon on to woo Tito on over to our side or at least go non-aligned, but lean towards the socialists. Similar the Soviets tried to woo Tito to fully come on their team. Offering loans, arms, advisors and even offering to train their officers. One of the most famous ones that I know of is Milan Vego (https://usnwc.edu/Faculty-and-Departments/Directory/Milan-Vego). So there is much more to the politics at the time that the game was being drafted with regards to Yugoslavia in the grander scheme of the Cold War.

So I think far from it being a side show, there was a feeling that ownership of Yugoslavia would have allowed for further control into the Carpathians and into the oil production areas around Poletsi as well major industrialized regions along the Danube and into what amounts to be Hungry, Czech, Southern Germany regions of heavy industry and arms manufacturing. Again owership of those regions and plants like Škoda would have been useful to again continued the war with weapons and heavy weapons like tanks or even some tankettes.


That is just my two shiny Lincoln heads on the whole matter.

[Legbreaker]

I think this is vaguely relevant to the overall conversation. https://youtu.be/iqK0MBfxlyo

[Rainbow Six]

Yeah, if the Poles can keep a sub operational in the Baltic, it stands to reason that the Soviets could keep at least a handful of attack subs alive in the Atlantic through 1998. In what time frame does Challenge say that Polish sub is operational?
The article states that it refers to conditions as of the beginning of July 2000.

[Olefin]

I am betting the units got there pretty much undisturbed - as said before the US Army Sourcebook was pretty clear on who got nailed on the way and who didnt

and if the 42nd got sent there in Oct 98 with limited spares and fuel its pretty easy to see why they are down to 6 operational tanks by June 2000 - i.e. combat + breakdowns+lack of spares+lack of fuel+lack of kits to convert them over to alcohol (they arent in contact with the Milgov forces that have been doing this for two years in Germany and Poland)+overall lack of support = recipe to reduce number of tanks - especially over 21 months of combat and use

If they had arrived in late 1999 then I would say it was due to losing a ship or two for sure

Also all three divisions went by sea - if you look at the US Army Sourcebook if they went by air and sea or air alone it was made clear - all three of the Yugoslavia divisions went by sea alone

Also if you look the divisions that took hits from Soviet raiders or air on the way over all went over in 97 - i.e. by 98 of the five units that deployed by sea the only one mentioning Soviet raiders or air attacks is the 6th Marine going to Korea and that was in early 98

[Raellus]

So I think far from it being a side show, there was a feeling that ownership of Yugoslavia would have allowed for further control into the Carpathians and into the oil production areas around Poletsi as well major industrialized regions along the Danube and into what amounts to be Hungry, Czech, Southern Germany regions of heavy industry and arms manufacturing. Again owership of those regions and plants like Škoda would have been useful to again continued the war with weapons and heavy weapons like tanks or even some tankettes.

I have come around to this way of thinking. Your earlier mention of the Yugoslavian offensive into Hungary (stopped at Lake Balaton) to link up with NATO forces pushing out of S. Germany lines up, time line-wise, with the arrival of the American divisions in Yugoslavia. It makes sense that they were sent to support said offensive. IF it had been successful, it would have establish a land corridor between Yugoslavia and S. Germany, cutting Hungary in half and essentially liberating Austria, not to mention getting one step closer to recapturing the Romanian oil fields.

So now sending US forces to Yugoslavia in mind-to-late '98 makes a lot of strategic sense.

As for the timing of 42nd ID's dispatch/arrival, after checking the color plate of the 42nd ID M60A4 in the USVG, it's decided pretty conclusively that its deployment happened in the final third of 1998, not late 1999 (that single reference must be a typo). That means the strength figure given in the USVG probably reflects almost two years' worth of combat attrition, rather than losses sustained during transit across the Atlantic/Med. That said, I still think there were Soviet subs operating as commerce raiders during that time.

Thanks to all of you for helping me work this out.

[Adm.Lee]

That was a lot of good discussion, all!

I was always willing to ignore the whole US deployment to Yugo. as silly IMC, but when you point to the timing with the NATO offensive south, it suddenly makes sense. So I am now in the same boat as Raellus, hopefully not a boat about to contact someone's sub in the eastern Med!

Sidebar: something that's influencing me is a game of Third World War (GDW) that I remember playing within the last 6 years or so-- about 4 weeks into the big war, NATO sent some of the still-arriving Americans into Croatia (7th LD, maybe the 101st or 10th MtnD?) to help the Italians stave off a Pact drive there. It wasn't much force, but it was enough to stall a secondary drive. I was the Pact player, and that was definitely a disappointment that I remember, even as I thought, "Why is he doing that?!"

[Raellus]

So I am now in the same boat as Raellus, hopefully not a boat about to contact someone's sub in the eastern Med!

:D

Sidebar: something that's influencing me is a game of Third World War (GDW) that I remember playing within the last 6 years or so-- about 4 weeks into the big war, NATO sent some of the still-arriving Americans into Croatia (7th LD, maybe the 101st or 10th MtnD?) to help the Italians stave off a Pact drive there. It wasn't much force, but it was enough to stall a secondary drive. I was the Pact player, and that was definitely a disappointment that I remember, even as I thought, "Why is he doing that?!"

Interesting. In my T2kU (v1, of course), the US sends the 173rd Airborne Brigade from Vicenza, Italy to Romania in late December 1996, after the Italians break with NATO (but before they declare for the WTO) and Romania declares for NATO, to help the Romanians and Yugoslavians hold off the WTO invasion and defend the Ploesti Oil fields until more help can arrive. As it turns out, that help, IV Corps, doesn't arrive until autumn, 1998, and then it gets held up in Yugoslavia. It's a classic, "Good luck, you're on your own" scenario.

-

[Olefin]

You have to wonder if there will even be a deployment into Yugoslavia for the V4. All depends on how the timeline is modified.

The V1 still had Yugoslavia as a country

The V2.2 has Yugoslavia falling apart before the war even though the timeline also refers to the Yugoslavian Army - i.e. an editing mistake most likely -

From V2.2

It did mention that Serbia, Croatia and Slovenia are Italian satellite armies while Dalmatia, Montenegro and Macedonia are on their own.

Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia Herzegovina (called Herzegovina for short)
and Slovenia are independent states and consist largely of independent, insular or cantonment regions. Littoral communities not devastated by
military action are insular, and areas around the various military cantonments are disputed. Macedonia is entirely devastated, insular, or disputed (mostly by the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Albanians).

The American Combat Vehicle Handbook still has the same deployments, same dates, same forces and same enemies

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Maybe not an editing mistake. During the first years of the conflict, the Serbian ground forces considered themselves the rightful Yugoslav Army and referred to themselves as such for a short time.
It's entirely possible that GDW tapped into that when they were writing that section.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Just stumbled across this again (I was aware of it from years ago but forgot about it), a fellow T2k gamer's take on Yugoslavia: -

Yugoslavia:2000
These notes provide more detailed background for Yugoslavia in Twilight:2000. Most importantly, these notes were first developed in 1991-2 and have almost no influence of the tortuous events of the last five years. The unit deployment come from Twilight:2000’s NATO and Warsaw Pact Vehicle Guides. Curiously enough, a lot of names that have since become better known appear…

Military Unit Locations
(as of Summer, 2000):

US (CivGov) Forces Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
IV Corp HQ Cantonment north of Split (Croatia).
42nd Inf Div Cantonment north of Split (Croatia). 3000 6 M60
76th Lt Inf Div Cantonment in Titograd (Montenegro). 1000
80th Lt Inf Div Cantonment north of Split (Croatia) 3000
Soviet Forces Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
Southern Front:
112th Air Asslt Bgd Beograd (Serbia). 700 2 Heli
20th Army:
9th Internal Rfl Div Mostar (SW Bosnia). 1000 Cav
73rd Gds Mot Rfl Div Sarajevo (Bosnia). 4000 2 T72
266th Motor Rfl Div Sarajevo (Bosnia). 4000
Serbian (US allied) Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
1st Provis Inf Div Near Beograd 2000 3 T74, M47
Kragujevac Inf Bgd Near Beograd 400
Valjevo Inf Bgd Near Beograd 500
Novi Sad Inf Bgd Near Beograd 300
Pancevo Inf Bgd Tuzla, Serbia 600
Nis Inf Bgd Lescovak (fighting Bulgarian bandits) 400
1st Prov Mtn Bgd Kosovska Mit, Kosovo (fighting Albanians) 700
Sabac Inf Bgd Vrsac, NW Serbia
(fighting bandits) 500
Croatia (anti-US, anti-Serb, anti-Soviet) Locations:
Unit Location Troops
Prvi Bgd Vicinity of Split (Dalmatia) 400
Drugi Bgd Dubrovnik (S Dalmatia) 800
Treci Bgd Sisak (central Croatia) 450
Cetvrti Bgd Lovran
(NW Croatia, near Rjieka) 200
Peti Bgd Sibenik
(Dalmatia, NW of Split) 500
Sesti Bgd Osijek (NE Croatia) 700
Sedmi Bgd Zagreb (N Croatia) 600
Osmi Bgd Vicinity of Split (Dalmatia) 200
Albanians (anti-US, anti-Serb) Locations:
Occupying parts of Kosovo region. Most local militias in Kosovo are ethnic Albanians.
Unit Location Troops
IV Inf Bgd Pec (Kosovo) 500
III Art Rgt Shkoder, Albania
(opposite US 76th) 400
Bulgaria (Pact ally) Locations:
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
28th Mot Div Belogradchik, NW Bulgaria 1000 2 T55
1st Mot Trng Div Sofia, W Bulgaria 800
9th Tank Bgd Rila, W Bulgaria 600 2 T55
Romanian (NATO ally) Locations:
Unit Location Troops
18th Mot Rfl Div Timisoara area.
Dispersed partisans 1100
2nd/6th Comb Mtn Bgd Turnu Severin area 900
Greece (anti-NATO) Locations:
Occupying Macedonia
Unit Location Troops Vehicles
Elements of Greek 9 Inf Div.:
Div HQ, Rfl Btn, Art Rgt, Tank Btn Skopje and Kumanovo
(closes passes to Kosovo) 100,400,600,200 12 Leopard I, 3 M-48
Rfl Rgt Kriva Palanka
(guards vs Bulgarians) 1000 3 M-48
Rfl Rgt Bitola
(blocks Albanians; pass to Greece) 900 2 M-48
Rfl Rgt Gevgelija
(guards pass to Thessaloniki) 1200 3 Leopard I
The Tank battalion is kept in reserve as a quick reaction force to back up the other regiments. The Greeks are well-supplied with men, tanks, and support equipment, but have limited fuel.

(On the webpage, there is a dead link here to a map of area)

History of US Units in Yugoslavia:
In one of the larger wasted efforts of the war, in the summer of 1998, the IV US Corps was brought over from the CivGov areas of the northeastern seaboard to Yugoslavia, in an attempt to prop up the resurgent Yugoslav government. However, almost as soon as they arrived, IV Corps ran into trouble.

The Yugoslav government they had been sent over to assist had been dismembered by the Italian military between the time CivGov had committed to rounding up IV Corps and the time the troops arrived after a slow crossing. In its place were the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia. Greece sent a fresh infantry division to occupy most of the province of Macedonia. The Italians withdrew most of their occupation forces, leaving a few to prop up Slovenia as a buffer. With the ability to strike back resistence crushed, Italy had little further interest in the area. The Russians held Serbia and Bosnia using forces from Romania.

Slovenia is an Italian satellite, a puppet state. All local militias have about half the numbers you'd expect due to arms confiscations.

Croatia is an open buffer state. The Italians (and the Russians) are banking on Croatian hate for Serbians to keep them apart and too divided to help remove the Pact forces. The Croatians are kind of against everyone: the Italians and the Russians (fear of occupation), the US troops (invasion), and the Serbians (long list of historical reasons).

Bosnia has no independent government. The Russians occupied the cities; internal strife between Croatian, Serbian, and Moslem populations keep it in turmoil. The Russians don't like to venture outside the cities much as everyone shoots at them.

Serbia's puppet government wouldn't last a day after the Russian troops left, and commands little outside the city of Beograd. Serbian militias operate independently of the puppet government to oppose the Russian invaders. They spent 1998 and 1999 squeezing the Russians into Beograd, and keep them surrounded while trying to bring the rest of the country under control. They steal most of their military supplies from the Russians.

No one has come after Montenegro except the Albanians to the South.

Shortly after landing at Split, IV Corps gained contact with military leaders in Serbia -- including their contacts from the former Yugoslav high command.

76th Division was embarked to support the Yugoslav army and Montenegran militia against invading Albanians. The light troops would not have fared well against the other major Yugoslav military problem - the Russians, then taking over occupation for the Italians. The 76th has gotten on well with the Montenegrans: their fighting spirit appeals to the warrior aspect of the culture and the 76th has done some clever work against Albanian raiders. They have also not been afraid to use their engineers and troops as muscle for public works programs. The local culture has a bit of a soft-spot for "Mad" Milo Coleman, the divisional CO.

The Croatians saw the US troops as aiding Serbian needs - not their own. So, the bulk of IV Corps (the 42nd Inf and 80th Lt Inf Div, plus most Corps assets) found itself fighting its way through the local population just to get at the Russians. Unfortunately, the friction with locals took the edge off IV Corps (which was not all that strong anyway), and they were unable to dislodge the Soviets. IV Corps halted and set up cantonments northwest of Split.


Found at the following page: -
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/yugonote.htm
His main T2k page: -
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/t2ksppt.htm

[RN7]

About 20 years ago I typed up a bunch of Orbats for the Balkans in T2K based on the available material that I had on hand. I'll post them up for people to look at.

ALBANIA

Albania wasn't badly damaged by the war and the Albanian High Command is concerned about an influx of refugees or marauders. Although most of the army is positioned along the borders blocking passes, some Albanian units have crossed into Yugoslavia.

Equipment is very basic and obsolete. Tanks are strictly T-54/T-55 and some T-34/85’s. Other vehicles include BTR-50/60’s, and trucks. Artillery is a mix of 152mm and 122mm howitzers, 130mm guns, Chinese 107mm MRL’s, and 160mm, 120mm and 82mm mortars. There are also 85mm, 57mm, and 45mm anti-tank guns, RPG-2s and Chinese Type 21 recoilless rifles.

Albanian High Command
Tank Brigade
I Infantry Brigade
II Infantry Brigade
III Infantry Brigade
IV Infantry Brigade
III Artillery Regiment

TANK BRIGADE
It likes to consider itself as the main strike force of the Albanian High Command. It is based in Tirana, but in reality only controls a few km outside of the city.
Location: Tirana, Albania
Manpower: 500
Tanks: 3 (3 T-55)

I INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Debar in Yugoslavia, it has incorporated the remaining 120mm mortars of the now disbanded II Artillery Regiment.
Location: Debar, Yugoslavia
Manpower: 300
Artillery: 6 (6x 120mm mortars)

II INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Korce.
Location: Korce, Albania
Manpower: 400

III INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Vlore.
Location: Vlore, Albania
Manpower: 300

IV INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based in Pec, Yugoslavia. It has the two remaining howitzers and gun crew of the now disbanded I Artillery Regiment.
Location: Pec, Yugoslavia
Manpower: 300
Artillery: 2 (2 152mm howitzers)

III ARTILLERY REGIMENT
Based in Shkroder, its howitzers are largely out of ammunition and its personnel are largely serving as the garrison of the town. Partisans from this unit occasionally encounter American troops from the US 76th Infantry Division in Podgorica/Titograd, Yugoslavia, when supporting anti-American guerillas in the area.
Location: Shkroder, Albania
Manpower: 400
Artillery: 4 (4 122mm howitzers)

[RN7]

BULGARIA

The Bulgarian Army is described as less technically advanced than the army that invaded Thrace in 1912 (surely an exaggeration). However they do not seem to be motivated too much beyond preserving their own hold on power and keeping the loot for themselves.

Bulgarian tanks are mainly T-55 although they had T-72s and T-34/85’s. Other vehicles include BRDM-2’s, BRDM-1’s, MT-LB’s, and BTR-60/50’s. Artillery is a mix of towed 122mm howitzers (must have some 152mm somewhere), 100mm and 76,2mm Anti-tank guns, and BM-21 MRL’s, There is also SO-122 SP mortars, 120mm towed mortars, AT-3 Anti-Tank Missiles, RPG-7’s and ZU-23-4 and 37mm AAG’s and SA-6 SAM’s. They also have Mi-24, Mi-8, Mi-4, and Mi-2 helicopters. Some may still be kept airworthy as they have access to oil.


1st Army

1st Guards Motor Rifle Training Division
This division was badly damaged during the invasion of Romania. It was withdrawn to Sofia in 1997 for rest and refit where it has remained ever since.
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Manpower: 800

28th Motor Rifle Division
This unit’s was badly damaged during the surprise Turkish Christmas attack. It was sent to Sofia area for refit and is currently in cantonment in the city of Belogradcik.
Location: Belogradcik, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,000
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)

9th Tank Brigade
This unit was one of the spearhead in the attack on Romania. It was mauled but stayed active until recalled to Bulgaria in 1998. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Rila.
Location: Rila, Bulgaria
Manpower: 600
Tanks: 3 (3x T-55)


2nd Army

2nd Motor Rifle Division
This unit’s war record is unknown but may have been retained in Bulgaria for home defence duties. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Stara Zagora.
Location: Stara Zagora, Bulgaria
Manpower: 2,000

17th Motor Rifle Division
This unit was disbanded in the early 1990’s and hastily reformed in 1997 and sent to Romania. It fought with distinction in Romania and was withdrawn to Bulgaria in 1999 to assume internal security duties.
Location: Khaskovo, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,200

19th Motor Rifle Training Division
This unit had a similar functionn to the 18th division and was strictly a training unit for the 1st and 2nd Armies. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Pazardzik.
Location: Pazardzik, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,800

5th Tank Brigade
This unit was disbanded in the early 1990’s and was reformed using cadres from other Bulgarian tank brigades and reinforces with a battalion of motorized infantry from the 7th MRD, and sent to China to assist Bulgaria’s Soviet allies. In early 2000 the commander pulled the division from the Chinese Front and began marching back to Europe along the Siberian railroad. It is currently as far west as Cheremkovo in Siberia, near Lake Baikal.
Location: Cheremkovo, Siberia
Manpower: 300

11th Tank Brigade
This unit’s war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Karlova.
Location: Karlova, Bulgaria
Manpower: 500
Tank: 1 (1x T-55)

2nd Army Reconnaissance Battalion
This unit’s war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in Sofia serving as an escort for the Bulgarian High Command.
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Manpower: 100
Tanks: 4 (4x BRDM-2)


3rd Army

3rd Motor Rifle Division
This unit’s war record is unknown but may have been retained in Bulgaria for home defence duties. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Burgas.
Location: Burgas. Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,500
Boats: 39


7th Motor Rifle Division
This unit’s war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Yambol and functions as a second line of defense in case of a Turkish attack..
Location: Yambol, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,200

18th Motor Rifle Training Division
This unit was little more than a training unit during the war with its trainees shipped out to other units. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Shumen watching the Romanian border.
Location: Shumen, Bulgaria
Manpower: 1,400

13th Tank Brigade
This unit’s war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Sliven.
Location: Sliven, Bulgaria
Manpower: 300
Tanks: 4 (4x T-55)

24th Tank Brigade
This unit’s war record is unknown. It is currently in cantonment in the city of Aytos and is known to be extorting from the local population and travelers through the area.
Location: Aytos, Bulgaria
Manpower: 400
Tanks: 4 (4x T-55)

[RN7]

ROMANIA

Much of the Romanian Army was destroyed in the war, but some units have survived although there is no longer a Romanian high command system. There are also many other former Romanian personnel who are now fighting as small bands of partisans. Surviving Romanian Army units are still in fairly good shape, having absorbed other units or making use of both caches of weapons stashed across the Romania countryside and captured Soviet and Hungarian weapons. Partisans are not nearly as well equipped but better armed and supplied than many of their counterparts in other countries.

Romanian equipment is predominantly Warsaw Pact, although they have produced a lot themselves. Tanks are TR-85s, M-77s and M-81s (Romanian upgrades of the T-55), T-72s, and T-54/55s, and T-34/85s. Other vehicles include BRDM-3s, BRDM-2s, TAB-77, and BTR-60/50’s. Artillery is a mix of towed 152mm and 122mm howitzers, 100mm and 85mm anti-tank guns, and BM-21 MRL’s. There is also 120mm and 82mm mortars, AT-3 anti-tank missiles, RPG-16, RPG-7’s and ZU-23-4, 57mm and 37mm AA’s and SA-6 and SA-7 SAM’s. The Romanians also used IAR-316Bs and IAR-330s helicopters, but these are unlikely to be still in use, although Soviet forces in Romania may use some captured helicopters along with their own.


1st Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as ant-Soviet partisans in the Bucharest area.
Location: Bucharest area, Romania
Troops: 900
Tanks: 1 (1x TR-85)

9th Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as anti-Hungarian partisans in the Cluj area.
Location: Cluj area, Romania
Manpower: 1,100

18th Motorised Rifle Division
This unit is operating as anti-Hungarian partisans east of Timisoara.
Location: Timisoara, Romania
Manpower: 1,100
Tanks: 2 (2x TR-85)

2nd/6th Combined Mountain Brigade
This unit is an amalgamation of two mountain infantry units from the pre-war Romanian 3rd Army. It is divided into a number of cantonments along the Danube River from the town of Turnu Severin to the famed Iron Gate Pass near Osrova.
Location: Turnu Severin area, Romania
Manpower: 900


Both the Soviets and the Hungarians have forces in Romania.

Hungarian Army

3rd Combined Arms Corps
2nd Tank Brigade
1st Motorised Rifle Brigade


Soviet Army

DANUBE FRONT
32nd Air Assault Brigade
3rd Guards Tank Army
13th Tank Division
14th Tank Division
42nd Guards Tank Division
117th Guards Tank Division
38th Army
24th Motorised Rifle Division
97th Motorised Rifle Division
Unattached (From Kiev MD)
29th Guards Motorised Rifle Division

[RN7]

YUGOSLAVIA

Recent History

With the death of General Tito in 1987 separatist movements started to develop with the various Yugoslavia states. By 1991 the governments of Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia officially seceded from the country. The Serb dominated national government sent troops to stop this with the breakaway state militias fighting back. The Serbs managed to control Bosnia, but after the new Bosnian governments request for Yugoslav national troops to withdraw was ignored, the Bosnians and other states rose up in outright rebellion against the Serbs. The escalation of violence led to Italian and Hungarian troops crossing into Slovenia and Croatia, mainly to stop the war from spilling over the borders into their territory.

In 1996 a Serb forces was dispatched to Romania to assist the Soviet/Warsaw Pact invasion, which weakened the Serb position in Yugoslavia and encouraged anti-Serb guerillas. With the situation worsening Italian troops fully entered Slovenia and Croatia, which effectively delineated the borders, and in the south the Greeks annexed Macedonia supported by the Albanians who wanted Kosovo. However the Albanian claim was not supported by Italy or Greece, leading Albania to break from the alliance with Greece and Italy and encourage Albanian guerillas to attack Greek forces.

The departure of Italian and Hungarian forces due to the war in the rest of Europe encouraged the Serbs to try and link up with NATO forces. This ultimately failed but the prospect of NATO forces in the Balkans led to a Soviet invasion in 1997 which gained control of much of Bosnia. It also also to the US sending troops to help the Serbs and anti-Soviet partisans. In 2000 Yugoslavia is a war thorn and divided country with numerous factions, both native and foreign vying for control and fighting among themselves. Each of the Yugoslavian states has its own governments, which are basically war councils as they do little else but fight each other. Both the US (CivGov) and the Soviets have troops in the country, with the US backing the Serbs and the Soviets backing the Croatians.

The various Yugoslav armies are in poor shape in 2000. The military situation in Yugoslavia has also been described as a snake pit, due to fluid and interchangeable borders and alliances, and almost no pre-war Yugoslav national army units have survived the war. Small arms come from many sources, both Yugoslavian, NATO, Soviet or others. Heavy weapons, automatic weapons and ammunition are in short supply and have been supplemented by civilian semi-automatics, bolt action rifles and shotguns.

The Yugoslav army and the successor states used Yugoslav T-84’s, and T-72/74’s, T-54/55’s, M-47 and M4 Sherman tanks. Other vehicles include PT-76, BRDM-2, M-8, and M3A1 scout vehicles, and M-80, M-60P and BTR-50/40 APC’s. Artillery includes 122mm and 105mm howitzers, 100mm, 90mm and 76.2 mm anti-tank guns, 120mm and 82mm mortars, 105mm and 57mm recoilless rifles, AT-3 and BOV-AT missiles, 37mm and 20mm AAG and SA-7 SAM.

[RN7]

Serbia

The Serbian Republic has organised two brigades which are under the control of the Serbian High Command. There are also six locally raised Serb militia brigades and numerous small bands of anti-Soviet partisans. The Serbian Republic forces are better armed than the militias and probably have sizeable stocks of vehicles and weaponry that they inherited from the Yugoslav national army. The Serbs are pro-NATO and are actively fighting the Soviets, who have occupied the Serb capital Belgrade, and other former Yugoslav nations and partisans.

1st Provisional Infantry Divisions
This is a Serb Republic unit is currently located south and east of Belgrade fighting the Soviets.
Location: South and East of Belgrade, Serbia.
Manpower: 2,000
Tanks: 4 (3x M-84, 1x M-47)

1st Provisional Mountain Brigade
This is a Serb Republic unit is currently fighting the Albanian army and ethnic Albanian partisans in Kosovo, north and north east of Pec.
Location: Kosovska Mitrovica, Kosovo
Manpower: 700

Novi Sad Infantry Brigade
This unit is a Serb militia force fighting the Soviets to the north of Belgrade.
Location: North of Belgrade, Serbia
Manpower: 300

Sabac Infantry Brigade
This unit is a Serb militia force fighting the Soviets and marauders. It has recently recaptured the city of Vrsac near the Serbian border with Romania from a large band of marauders and is consolidating its hold on the area.
Location: Vrsac, Serbia
Manpower: 500

Valjevo Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is currently fighting the Soviets south west of Belgrade.
Location: South west of Belgrade, Serbia
Manpower: 500

Pancevo Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is currently located in Bosnia at the city of Tuzla, attempting to regain control of the area from bandits and marauders.
Location: Tuzla, Bosnia
Manpower: 600

Nis Infantry Brigade
This Serb militia unit is fighting Bulgarian backed marauders in and around the city of Lescovak near the Serbian border with Bulgaria.
Location: Lescovak, Serbia
Manpower: 400

Kragujevac Infantry Brigade
This is a Serb militia unit fighting the Soviets in Belgrade.
Location: Belgrade area, Serbia
Manpower: 400

[RN7]

Croatia

The Croatian Republic is the second strongest native force in Yugoslavia, and it has organised eight militia infantry brigades to defend its territory. The Croatians are fighting the Serbs and US forces and have aligned themselves with the Soviets and other Warsaw Pact nations, which has kept them well supplied, but they have no tanks.

Prvi Brigade
This unit is based in coastal city of Split and serves as the Croatian garrison for the town.
Location: Split, Croatia
Manpower: 400

Drugi Brigade
This unit is based in the coastal town of Dubrovnik.
Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia
Manpower: 800

Treci Brigade
This unit is based in Sisak, south east of Zagreb and watches the south east border with Bosnia and is a second line of defence in case of a direct attack from Serbian territory.
Location: Sisak, Croatia
Manpower: 450

Cetvrti Brigade
This unit is based in Lovrec, north of Split. It was recently defeated by the US 42nd Infantry Division and has withdrawn to Lovrec to refit and recruit.
Location: Lovrec, Croatia
Manpower: 200

Peti Brigade
This unit is based in the coastal town of Sibenik.
Location: Sibenik, Croatia
Manpower: 500

Sesti Brigade
This unit is based in Osijek and would be the first line of Croatian defence from a Serbian attack across the Serbia border.
Location: Osijek, Croatia
Manpower: 700

Sedmi Brigade
This unit is the garrison for the Croatian capital Zagreb.
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Manpower: 600

Osmi Brigade
This unit is based in the Split area, patrolling the Croatian south western borders with Bosnia.
Location: Split, Croatia
Manpower: 200

[RN7]

Slovenia

Slovenian is the only other former Yugoslav state that has an organised army in T2K. Slovenia is probably the most stable part of the former Yugoslavia and has good relations with neighboring Italy. The Slovenians have an effective and well equipped militia force.

1st Provisional Brigade Group
Currently based in the Slovene capital Ljubljana, serving as the garrison for the city,
Location: Ljubljana, Slovenia
Manpower: 600
Tanks: 3 (2x M84’s, 1x M4A3E8)

2nd Provisional Brigade Group
Currently based in the Slovenian city of Celje.
Location: Celje
Manpower: 400
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)

[pmulcahy11b]

Croatia


Do me a favor -- put a decent Croatian unit in Stanisic, Serbia. It was Croatian until the RL civil war, but is now about 40 km into Serbia.

It's my mother's home town.

[RN7]

Greece

Recent History

Greece’s entry into the war started in 1996 when Turkey invaded Cyprus. The Greek governed declared war on Turkey, sent forces to Cyprus, and invaded Thrace. Greece also negotiated a mutual defence treaty with Italy in order to defend the Adriatic, and both countries declared the sea off limits to NATO ships and all Turkish trade. At the end of 1996 Greek naval and air forces attacked a NATO convoy bound for Turkey, leading NATO to declared war on Greece and Italy to declare war on NATO. In order to neutralise the Mediterranean, NATO aircraft attacked Greek naval targets and began nuking Greek industrial centres. The Greek government soon collapsed and a military junta of generals took control, annexing Macedonia in the process. The generals soon began to squabble and the Macedonians put up string resistance, and soon the country began to revert to a city state form of government with the military forces of the generals controlling their own fiefdoms.

The Greek army is still organised along NATO standards, but its equipment comes from a variety of sources as the Greeks lost a lot of their original equipment in Thrace and the Yugoslav splinter states including Macedonia. Greece has one division in Yugoslavia.


9th INFANTRY DIVISION
The 9th division is occupying the Yugoslav state of Macedonia. It is HQ at Skopje, with units based at other Macedonian towns guarding against incursions from Albania, Bulgaria, and reinforcing Greek forces guarding against a Turkish incursion from Thrace.
Location: Skopje and Kumanova, Macedonia
Manpower: 4,300 (1,300 at Skopje/Kumanova, 1,000 at Kriva Palanka, 900 at Bitola, 1,200 at Gevgelija)
Tanks: 23 (12x Leopard 1, 3x M48A5 at Skopje/Kumanova, 3x M48A5 at Kriva Palanka, 2x M48A5 at Bitola, 3x Leopard 1 at Gevgelja)

3rd ARMOURED BRIGADE
Based at Thessalonika, this unit has close ties with the 11th Infantry Brigade and will react if the Turks attack out of Thrace.
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Manpower: 5,000
Tanks: 4 (3x T-72, 1x T-55)
Boats: 15

2nd INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Athens
Location: Athens
Manpower: 3,500
Tanks: 1 (1x T-62)
Boats: 40

3RD INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Larisa
Location: Larisa, Greece
Manpower: 750
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)

5th INFANTRY BRIGADE
This unit is conflict with the 2nd Infantry Brigade over resources.
Location: Piraeus, Greece
Manpower: 2,500
Tanks: 2 (2x T-55)
Boats: 51

8TH INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Volos.
Location: Volos, Greece
Manpower: 2,000
Boats: 38

9th INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently base at Patros.
Location: Patros, Greece
Manpower: 1,500
Boats: 24

11TH INFANTRY BRIGADE
Currently based at Kavalla near the Turkish border, this unit is constantly involved in clashes with Turkish scouting and patrol units.
Location: Kavalla. Greece
Manpower: 3,000
Tanks: 2 (2x T-62)
Boats: 14

THE SPARTANS
A remnant of several Greek special forces units, they have set up a pseudo-Spartan society. They defend Sparta and occasionally hire out to neighboring cities as mercenaries.
Location: Sparta, Greece
Manpower: 1,000

1ST PARATROOPERS
The 1st Paratroopers are the last surviving Greek special forces unit, and are deadly rivals of the Spartans who they consider to be traitors.
Location: Corinth, Greece
Manpower: 250
Boats: 5

1ST CRETE BRIGADE
Currently based in Iraklion.
Location: Iraklion, Crete
Manpower: 450
Boats: 40

2ND CRETE BRIGADE
Currently based in Khania.
Location: Khania, Crete.
Manpower: 350
Boats: 20

[Olefin]

FYI Yugoslavia is definitely a place that a GM who likes old equipment would love to run

Look at what they had as to tanks and tank destroyers - from the 1991 organization

Medium Tanks

M-4 Sherman – 630 (including M-32, M32B1 and M-74 tank recovery vehicles, stored in reserve)
T-34/85 – 889
M-47 Patton – 319
T-55 – 1614


Main Battle Tanks
T-72 – 73
M-84 – 443

Tank Destroyers
SU-100 – 40
M18 Hellcat – ~260
M36 Jackson – ~300