Alcohol, Tobacco, and Drugs in T2k

[Raellus]

Have they played a role in your campaign?

Alcoholic beverages are easy enough to make- the ingredients are widely available, and lots of people are familiar with fermentation as a process. I'm always running across pre-war Vodka and post-TDM local hooch in T2k campaigns.

Someone told me that Poland was Europe's biggest producer of tobacco. That struck me as strange, given what I thought I knew about tobacco and climate, but I never bothered to fact check it. In books and films about war (both fiction and non-fiction), cigarettes are treated as ersatz currency by soldiers. They used to be included in U.S. K-rats and other military rations as well, IIRC. I reckon a lot of soldiers would be jonesing for that sweet nicotine hit c.2000, increasing tobacco's value as a luxury good/means of exchange.

As for drugs, I imagine that marijuana could be grown in Europe, in greenhouses, if not outdoors. Cocaine and heroine, I'd imagine not. Smuggling links to Latin America and Asia would be more or less cut by the war, no?

I bet there'd be a black market for military-issue painkillers and sedatives, but they'd be increasingly hard to come by c.2000, I'd imagine.

LSD? I figure a professional chemist with access to the right chemicals could whip some up. How possible would that be by 2000, though? (The article that inspired this thread-)

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkdk39/us-marines-wont-stop-taking-lsd

I included a pimp/drug dealer NPC in a Poland-based campaign, but I think I was vaguely circumspect when it came to describing his narcotics supply because I wasn't sure what drugs would realistically be available in the region c.2000.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=2979

Share your alcohol, tobacco, and drug knowledge here. We won't ask you how you came by it, or judge. ;)

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[simonmark6]

Poland produces about 35K tonnes of tobacco every year. There's definately be some still being made in my opinion. There might even be a big call for child labour to produce it.

Chewing tobacco might be popular as well as rough made cigars and cigarillos.

Opium poppies grow in Poland and N Europe, just not very well. It's more likely that anyone creating opioids in Poland would be making poppy tea for mild buzzes and some good medical effects.

There is a product called Polish Heroin that is a step up from poppy tea and would possibly be made to satisfy any existing addicts. However, most addicts would likely not have survived the nukes and aftermath: it might be used by people that became addicted to pain meds whilst they still existed.

Turkey is a possible site for more potent heroin that could be traded up into Europe, but again, most would probably go toward medical use although medical and recreational use can go hand in hand as was shown in the C19th use of Laudanum.

Cannabis might be grown in greehouses or using hydroponics, but this is very intensive and requires rare chemicals an power. More likely, in my opinion, would be industrial hemp. This is a wonder plant for the apocalypse, it can be used for oil, biofuel, cordage, building, clothing, and several foodstuffs. In areas where it is grown, leaves might be smoked for a very low TBC buzz. Most industrial hemp has higher amounts of CBC so may also have medical uses.

Magic Mushrooms will be available as will Argot, which grows as a mold on stored cereals. It is interesting because it can occur naturally and causes hallucinations of being on fire or being able to fly. A potential mystery for adventures could be a community with a rash of drownings and falls with the cause being an accidental growth of Argot. If you want a villain it could be an unscrupulous trader.

Crystal Meth can be manufactured relatively simply and can double as a combat drug: it fuelled the advance into France in 1940.

Glue and solvents are also a nasty drug that might be still common.

Hope this helps.

[Lurken]

In my current campaign I had my group encounter a small group of smugglers, running cigaretts, both new and pre-war stock. In addition to pre-war esctacy, very expensive, and what ever else I could come up with.

It was a bit fun, as one PC traded away his M1911, mags, ammo and holster for a bag of 15 packs of smokes of claimed pre-war american smokes. Let us just say, you should sample what you buy...

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Speaking as someone with a few decades working in laboratories doing analysis and research work for the mining industry I have two thoughts about manufacturing certain drugs.

1. It's actually simpler than it sounds. Give me the method (i.e. the recipe) for making LSD or ecstasy and the right chemicals and equipment and I could make it (as could any competent laboratory technician or laboratory assistant - you don't need a chemist to make it). I'd go as far as saying that anyone with good cooking experience can make some of these because essentially all you are doing is following a recipe.
Someone who was making their own moonshine probably has enough skill to produce these drugs as long as they have the right equipment, chemicals, etc. etc. and the method (i.e. recipe)

You only really need a chemist to work out a method or to troubleshoot problems with the process.
One of the chemists I worked with years ago said that one of his friends as they were studying their degrees, discovered that the university had all the chemicals needed to make LSD. So his friend whipped up a batch and used it to paint smiley faces on their lab-coats.
I mention this to illustrate the ease that someone with the understanding and the resources could make these drugs.
It's the same reason that many crack addicts were able to get into making their own crack for sale and to supply their own habit.

It's only because the procedures for making these drugs are not particularly known and the chemicals and even some of the equipment used need proof of legitimate work and so on before they can be purchased, that people are not regularly making this stuff for themselves. That plus they should have the knowledge of handling dangerous goods, for example some chemicals have specific storage requirements that can cause big problems if they are not met.
Which is also the reason that some of those crackheads alluded to above have burnt down their own homes cooking meth in the kitchen or have injured/disfigured themselves when using various chemicals - no understanding of how to handle dangerous goods, some of these chemicals will kill you if you're lucky, if you're unlucky they'll leave you horribly injured.

So this leads me to the second of my thoughts...
2. Being relatively easy takes away the value of some higher skills in the game. I would say that anyone with regular cooking experience could make these drugs but then what use is there for the Chemistry skill if you make such tasks so easy?
Obviously Chemistry can cover a lot more than that but to fit in with the use of Chemistry in the rules, I argue that any attempt to make such drugs should require at least Chemistry level 4.
It also fits in with the idea that someone who does not know what they're doing will probably end up burning down their home trying to make these drugs, i.e. no chemistry knowledge, no dangerous goods knowledge then you probably should make a better career choice because you'll probably end up killing yourself.

With the higher level, you could supervise other people making the drugs (child or slave labour would not be suitable, you need people who will pay attention to detail) and just as importantly, you would have the knowledge of safe storage for the chemicals needed as well as the ability to troubleshoot problems with the process.
I'd argue that this then allows the Referee to call for Leadership skills if they want to reduce the number of people who could conceivably make such drugs in the game world - make the task a little harder so that not everyone who can bake a cake tries to assemble their own little drug making gang.

You could make these drugs with lower levels of Chemistry but I would argue for a lower skill level to be suitable only for making small batches over a longer period of time and specifically being made by the person with the skill. Assuming you want to allow that at all. Personally I would probably not allow it because I feel it devalues the Chemistry skill somewhat - unless you choose to make the person in charge also use Leadership to enable them to supervise a team.
My preference would be for a higher level skill to be the person in charge, supervising those with the lower level skills. Those with lower level skill would be assistants (until they are able to raise the skill).
Hence my comment about child or slave labour being a bad idea - you need people who will understand the potential hazards if they screw things up.


So, after all that waffling on, I would suggest that for any group in the Twilight world wishing to make LSD, ecstasy and so on, they would have at least a small group doing the work. A person with a higher level Chemistry skill would be the person in charge and others with lower skill (i.e. 3 or less) would be assisting and doing the actual production.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

And don't forget Poland had very well established vodka production going on for quite some time, most was made in some central facilities that supplied vodka to various distributors.

[Tegyrius]

Obviously Chemistry can cover a lot more than that but to fit in with the use of Chemistry in the rules, I argue that any attempt to make such drugs should require at least Chemistry level 4.
It also fits in with the idea that someone who does not know what they're doing will probably end up burning down their home trying to make these drugs, i.e. no chemistry knowledge, no dangerous goods knowledge then you probably should make a better career choice because you'll probably end up killing yourself.

I'm with you on most of this but I'm not sure a skill minimum requirement is necessary. Instead, set the difficulty to Average for "personal use" batches, Formidable for "resale" amounts, and Impossible for "industrial" quantities. Catastrophic failures will take care of those who overreach themselves.

- C.

[Silent Hunter UK]

In my current campaign I had my group encounter a small group of smugglers, running cigaretts, both new and pre-war stock. In addition to pre-war esctacy, very expensive, and what ever else I could come up with.

It was a bit fun, as one PC traded away his M1911, mags, ammo and holster for a bag of 15 packs of smokes of claimed pre-war american smokes. Let us just say, you should sample what you buy...

Cigarette trading was a big money maker in post-WW2 Germany, which in a way was rather similar to T2K Poland.

https://coinsweekly.com/a-relic-from-germanys-post-war-era-a-hoard-of-cigarette-boxes/

Hungary also grows some tobacco. There was a British TV series set in colonial America filmed there and they planted a whole tobacco field for filming... then had to burn the stuff afterwards.

[Targan]

... then had to burn the stuff afterwards.

Yeah that's usually how it works ;)

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Here's something to think about and you definitely want a chemist to sort it out...

Medicinal drugs are actually stronger than you need but they are made that way because humans produce an enzyme that filters/blocks out various things in concert with the liver to ensure we don't poison ourselves. That is to say, it will reduce the potency of the medication.

However, grapefruit and a very small number of other citrus fruits produce a chemical that effectively shuts down the enzyme and allows the full strength of the medicinal drug to interact with the body.
It's the specific reason some medicines state "do not consume grapefruit while using this medicine".
One small glass of grapefruit juice can amp up the effect of the medicine to produce toxicity and you know, if you're really unlucky, kill you... apparently it has happened :eek:
And the effects don't just go away after a few hours, it can take up to a full day for the grapefruit effect to diminish to safe levels.

So, what the hell am I blathering on about?
Imagine then, your group of PCs stumble across a group of people who they have been told are drug runners. If their cargo is searched they have large quantities of grapefruit (or the juice).
Why?
Because they have a chemist who is producing doses of grapefruit juice to enhance the effect of the drugs they are selling which means they can reduce the potency of the drug and therefore sell smaller doses and thus have more product to sell.

Or if you don't want to walk in the shades of grey, perhaps a medical doctor somewhere has limited supplies of medical drugs and has rediscovered the grapefruit effect. They have decided that this is a convenient way to make more medicine available but...
There's always a but.
They need someone to source grapefruit for them.

Perhaps one of your PCs with Chemistry can attempt to stretch out the group's medical drugs by using them in concert with grapefruit juice?

"So how did the Twilight: 2000 game go today?"
"Yeah, interesting but a little strange."
"Strange?"
"Yeah, the Ref has sent us on a trek to Turkey to find grapefruit"


For your researching needs should you want to mess with your game group!
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/grapefruit-and-medications#How-does-it-interact-with-medications?
https://www.drugs.com/article/grapefruit-drug-interactions.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grapefruit%E2%80%93drug_interactions
https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/grapefruit-juice-and-some-drugs-dont-mix



Ah the weird and wonderful things we can find when we're doing a bit of research for gaming! :D

[Vespers War]

Here's something to think about and you definitely want a chemist to sort it out...

Medicinal drugs are actually stronger than you need but they are made that way because humans produce an enzyme that filters/blocks out various things in concert with the liver to ensure we don't poison ourselves. That is to say, it will reduce the potency of the medication.

I looked into this a while back when my father was on medication that grapefruit would interfere with, and it's really weird if one digs into it.

There are actually two ways grapefruit juice can interfere with medicines. It blocks enzymes like you mentioned. That's how it messes with statins and increases the amount in the body. It can also block transporters and reduce the amount of some medications, like Allegra. Acetaminophen has a weird reaction where one glass of grapefruit juice will increase absorption and make the drug more effective because of the enzyme reaction, but subsequent glasses will reduce bioavailability and make the drug less effective.

The gang would need to know how furanocoumarins interact with each drug to know how grapefruit juice will affect dosing (which can also vary a bit by individual, so there's going to be some risk no matter what).

The interaction can also occur with any other citrus fruit descended from the pomelo, such as limes (other than Key lime) or bitter oranges. Sweet oranges are technically a pomelo descendant, but they're primarily mandarin and have very little of the furanocoumarins that destroy the enzymes.

[CDAT]

My thoughts on this, first I am a non-drinker/smoker/all the above. So some of this may be skewed by that. But short term I see tobacco, and alcohol being very prized, as a link to the real world. But as time goes on, I would guess that alcohol would be come a mixed bag, by that I mean it would be for medical, and fuel, but less so for recreational. Tobacco the demand for it even more so would drop off. As for drugs (both what today are legal and illegal) again would be a mixed bag. Something that can not be grown, but you need to take every day, would run out quickly, then you have to deal with the fall out of that. For example a former co-worker of mine had a kidney transplant, and was on anti-rejection meds. If he runs out he is dead man walking, has a short time before the damage is to much, and after that even if he gets more it does not matter. Now on the other side my best friend takes multivitamins every day as he does not like to eat a well balanced diet. If he runs out, either he starts eating a well balanced diet, or he will have the issues of what he is not getting (likely having the issues with supply as I understand the game settings). So what I guess I am getting at here is that if you need them they would be worth a lot, but if you do not there value would be low to you (unless you planed to sell them), but as time went on there value would diminish. Illegal drugs (by today's standard) I could see some of them being used for medical purposes, depending on how hard they are to grow where you are, I could also see them being used for recreation. I do not see there being large numbers of "junkies" as they are not normally the most productive member of the community. With the limited supplies most communities have, keeping someone who is not productive (and/or is a liability) is not likely to be many, also with limited supplies why would I spend them on something that is not going to help keep me alive, or improve my health? There will be some, just as there are some that can run a 6 min mile while smoking, but they are going to be the exception I think.

[WallShadow]

<snip>
Chewing tobacco might be popular as well as rough made cigars and cigarillos.
<Snip>
Turkey is a possible site for more potent heroin that could be traded up into Europe, but again, most would probably go toward medical use although medical and recreational use can go hand in hand as was shown in the C19th use of Laudanum.
<snip>
Magic Mushrooms will be available as will Argot, which grows as a mold on stored cereals. It is interesting because it can occur naturally and causes hallucinations of being on fire or being able to fly. A potential mystery for adventures could be a community with a rash of drownings and falls with the cause being an accidental growth of Argot. If you want a villain it could be an unscrupulous trader.
<Snip>
Glue and solvents are also a nasty drug that might be still common.
Really nasty, as in the Russian fashion in making a gasoline-based drug called "Krokodil" that caused horrific injection site tissue dehiscence (eccchhh!!!)

Tobacco pipes will rejoin popular tobacco usages as well as the cigar/chaw/snuff forms.

While hemp may be less active, gathering the hemp flowers' resin for hashish might be possible.

As for fungus from rotting grain, ergot grows very well on rye products, and not only has psychotropic effects, it can lead to the decrease in bloodflow to extremities, causing, wait for it....gangrene. Not something you'd really want to risk a high for.
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