Grappling and melee

[TiggerCCW UK]

I know that there are a lot of faults with the melee system in T2K, but I was wondering if anyone had a better system for grappling. This has come into my head with my merc game coming up, and in light of a bit of a barney we had in work last night.

Long story short, while working last night I became involved in removing a couple of guys from work (one of them had punched a female customer and knocked her out). We were taking the guys up to hold them for the cops when one of them (had to be the biggest, didn't it) got loose and things got a bit lively for a few minutes. One of my doormen got his nose broken and there was a fair old scuffle. It took 4 of us to restrain the guy and bring him to the ground where we were able to hold him for the police. He's been charged with assault and abh.

To be honest, the Twilight melee system wasn't going through my head at the time, but thinking about it since I was wondering how that would have played out in game terms. In my last campaign I did have a player who melee'd for preference, and the grapple rules seemed to make it pretty easy to overpower and hold someone. As we proved last night, if someone doesn't want to be restrained, it can be hard to control them.

[Caradhras]

Fair point.

I guess you have to think about the 'playability' aspect too though. If it became so difficult to pin/hold someone, no-one would bother trying.

I reckon it is not too difficult to overpower/restain someone 1 v 1 when you have a str/size advantage in normal circs. In a scenario where the opponent is big and 'handy', combined with 'adrenalin rushed' and possibly drink/drugs...then maybe the GM needs to throw in a few additional modifiers to the rules :p

[Legbreaker]

I suppose one way to look at it is in terms of skill levels.
Do any of the participants in your RL scuffle have much in the way of actual training? If so, how would they rate on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being effectively untrained and ten the worlds greatest martial artist?

[Targan]

My players love to get into hand to hand, grappling and melee weapons combat in my campaign. The original T2K systems handle such combat poorly. I recommend making your own system for that kind of combat or convert to an existing system you like.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Fair point.

I guess you have to think about the 'playability' aspect too though. If it became so difficult to pin/hold someone, no-one would bother trying.

I reckon it is not too difficult to overpower/restain someone 1 v 1 when you have a str/size advantage in normal circs. In a scenario where the opponent is big and 'handy', combined with 'adrenalin rushed' and possibly drink/drugs...then maybe the GM needs to throw in a few additional modifiers to the rules :p

I agree that playability needs to be maintained, rather than just going for total realism, but the game just seems to go too far down the easy route. I'm coming up on 18 years in the bar door trade and its rare that a restraint ever goes as easy as the game would make it look. For the record the guy last night was pretty drunk, but we don't think there was any drug use involved.

When you say that you think it should be easy to restrain someone 1 on 1 do you mean in game terms or in real life? I agree that the game should be slightly biased towards the players and give them a chance, I think the melee rules have gone too far.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I suppose one way to look at it is in terms of skill levels.
Do any of the participants in your RL scuffle have much in the way of actual training? If so, how would they rate on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being effectively untrained and ten the worlds greatest martial artist?

I'm unsure about whether the unknown male had any training, but I don't think so. On our end none of us have any formal martial arts training, but the others involved had at least 3 years experience on the door and I'm pushing 18 years bar and door. It should be pointed out that we were somewhat limited in options of what we could actually do - we were getting the police involved so we wanted to hand him over intact and uninjured. Of course his own personal rules of engagement were slightly different. Had it just been a case of chinning him to remove a threat it would have been a lot quicker.

Another relevant factor is that he was a fair bit bigger than us - but then its never the easy ones that kick off.

[Legbreaker]

I know it's simplifying A LOT but could it be said the drunk had a Str and Con of say 8 while everyone else were say average 5?
Being drunk might also contribute, artificially raising his Con another few points while simultaneously reducing Int (common sense) to a negative figure...

Of course the rules are certainly bent towards PCs winning, but as you say you were also trying to restrain rather than kill/injure. Having to "pull punches" so to speak is certainly going to have a BIG impact, especially when the drunk is probably doing everything in their power to escape.

Now, from the way I see it, and trying not to complicate things too much, Strikes, Blocks and Diving Blows can probably stand as they are - it's Grappling that appears to be too easy. How can that be adjusted in such a way that Grappling is still a viable option for characters?

[Targan]

The way Harnmaster handles grappling you first match the level of success or failure of each participant's appropriate skill roll (Unarmed Combat or a martial art skill) on a two axis grid, one axis for the attacker and one for the defender. The levels of success/failure in Harnmaster are Critical Success, Marginal Success, Marginal Failure, Critical Failure. You cross reference on the grid and it tells you what the next step will be. If the attacker has successfully grappled he can attempt to exploit the hold which requires a further Unarmed or MA check and a test of strength against strength (each side rolls 2d6 and adds their strength to it and highest total wins). There are various things you can do with an exploited hold like squeezing, choking, restraining, attempting to dislocated or break limbs, imobilise etc.

[Caradhras]

I use to do Ju-jitsu and the one on one fights used to include grapple/restraint. This was wholly possible. This said, when I was a skinny 16 yr old this guy who was basically a 30something yr old 16 stoner built like a Dwarf (same width as height) once embarrassed me in front of the whole ju-jitsu class and just stood there completely immobile grinning at my vain attempts to put him on the floor. Would love top meet him in the same scenario now...one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60 :p

This said, I just discussed this thread at lunch with my 2 m8s who are doormen and they agreed with the circumstances you stated. Some guys just wont be restrained.

The rumes are basic enough to just tweak to the situation, if the person being restrained is 'enraged' or similar adjust accordingly.

[TiggerCCW UK]

There's nothing quite like the "Oh shit" factor generated by giving your all against a guy and he just doesn't move. Happened to me back in '98 with a punter who was sleazing over some of my female customers. Asked him to leave, he refused and got a bit lively. I grabbed him and managed to restrain him, but I just couldn't move him. It looked like it was going to come down to who could last longer, but thankfully more of our staff arrived and between us we got him out - turned out he was an Isreali ex squaddie, not something I expected to run across on a Tuesday in Belfast!

[Badbru]

An Israeli ex squadie eh? Reminds me of a story I once heard, or maybe read about. Four Israeli's were holliday in the Kashmir region border of India and Pakistan when it was observed that they were taken hostage by armed gunmen. The next day with a police search gathering momemtum the four stroll into the local police station and dump an armload of weapons on the counter and proceed to give directions to the startled attending officer as to where the no longer armed gunmen could be found.

Maybe you were luckier than you know Tigger...

[TiggerCCW UK]

Very definitely! I reckon he'd probably only done his basic conscription rather than anything more serious as he came across as having no real idea of what to do once I'd grabbed him. I'd him held restrained and he wasn't posing any real risk to me, just struggling fairly ineffectualy, but at the same time I just couldn't get him moved. Could have ended badly I know. You'd think I'd learn my lesson over the years - I had a punter pull a knife on me way back in '95 which I took off him (he was only 18, seriously weedy and so drunk that he was more of a danger to himself), that could have gone tits up as well.

[Caradhras]

[QUOTE=Caradhras]one, I am far bigger and stranger than I was....two, he would be about 60 :p

QUOTE]

ermm, although true that I am stranger - I meant stronger ::rolleyes:

[TiggerCCW UK]

As a foot note to this thread, I've been suffering with my knee more than normal since that row, and one of the knuckles on my right hand has been kind of sore and swollen. Went to A&E on Thursday after I felt something rip in my knee. Apparently I've buggered my ACL :( I already had problems with the knee from a fall while climbing in the alps in '91 (displaced my knee cap about 3/4 of an inch to the left and down) and the doc reckons my ACL has been damaged since then, but this ruck may have pretty much finished it off. As far as the knuckle goes, they think I might have chipped a bone. Back to the hospital on Monday for an x-ray of my hand to see whats wrong with it, and to see an ortho surgeon about the knee. Had better weeks :) On a crutch now and signed off work for a minimum of 2 weeks. Worst bit is that the little lady doesn't understand why this Tigger just isn't so bouncey today.

[Targan]

Gee Tig that sux :(

[pmulcahy11b]

As a foot note to this thread, I've been suffering with my knee more than normal since that row, and one of the knuckles on my right hand has been kind of sore and swollen. Went to A&E on Thursday...

I'm a slight bit confused -- here in the US, A&E is a cable TV network...

At least you're not still in the military -- now in retirement, I'm paying for injuries I ignored while on active duty!

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

[pmulcahy11b]

Sorry, should have explained. A&E is accident and emergency, equivalent to the ER in America. Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?

Who knows? I've been taken Vicodin for some five years now -- it takes most of the pain away, but doesn't give me a feeling of "excessive well-being."

BTW, in the US, it can be hard to find a doctor who will prescribe narcotics for chronic pain, mostly because of government regulation and patient abuse. I got lucky that Dr. Yu was willing to buck the system. She's one of the best doctors I've ever had.

[Targan]

Read the leaflet that came with my pain killers - apparently one of the side effects is that they can induce a feeling of "excessive well being" - how can that be a problem? And why hasn't it happened with me yet?
Scoff a fistful - that oughta do it.

Umm, I feel I should add that I'm joking.

[TiggerCCW UK]

So, I went back to the hospital yesterday. Saw a different doctor and she told me that there definitely isn't anything wrong with my ACL! Unfortunately she couldn't tell me what was wrong with my leg other than wear and tear on top of the old injury. She also couldn't tell me why the knee keeps buckling out from under me when I try to put weight on it. All she told me was to stop using the crutch as soon as I could. Told her that as soon as I could put weight on the leg I would. She x rayd my knee and found nothing and I've been referred for an MRI, should get it in 6-8 weeks. Hopefully know more then.

On the plus side when they did the x ray of my hand it came back clear apart from some grit in the wound. Managed to get that cleaned out and its on the mend already.

[Targan]

Some good news there at least Tig. Be interesting to hear about your MRI results.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years. 18 years on its not great, but I'm not a raspberry yet!

[pmulcahy11b]

Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years. 18 years on its not great, but I'm not a raspberry yet!

Six years ago Dr Casillas (my foot orthopedist) told me he's probably be working on my ankle again within 3 years. He's still waiting for me to come back again...

[pmulcahy11b]

Some good news there at least Tig. Be interesting to hear about your MRI results.

Why is there a 6-8 week wait for an MRI down under?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Why is there a 6-8 week wait for an MRI down under?
I think you might be confusing my location with Targan's Paul. I'm in Northern Ireland and the main reason there's a 6-8 week wait here is that there's only 2 MRI's in NI, plus its the NHS, which means free health care, but a bit of a wait. If I was willing to pay to go private it might be a bit quicker, but it'd be a lot of cash. 6-8 weeks isn't too bad - my father waited over a year for one two years ago and I waited two years when I first injured the leg. I also waited 3 years for surgery after that.

[pmulcahy11b]

I think you might be confusing my location with Targan's Paul. I'm in Northern Ireland and the main reason there's a 6-8 week wait here is that there's only 2 MRI's in NI, plus its the NHS, which means free health care, but a bit of a wait. If I was willing to pay to go private it might be a bit quicker, but it'd be a lot of cash. 6-8 weeks isn't too bad - my father waited over a year for one two years ago and I waited two years when I first injured the leg. I also waited 3 years for surgery after that.

Ooops on your location.

That's the advantage of being a disabled veteran who's also eligible for Medicare -- I can get anything I need medically pretty easily. (It also helps living in a rapidly-growing city with three military bases and lots of retirees.) I often forget how lucky I am in that respect. Hang in there, Tigger.

[jester]

Ooops on your location.

That's the advantage of being a disabled veteran who's also eligible for Medicare -- I can get anything I need medically pretty easily. (It also helps living in a rapidly-growing city with three military bases and lots of retirees.) I often forget how lucky I am in that respect. Hang in there, Tigger.


Paul you are smoking crack! Its all about location, location, location when it comes to the whole disabled veteran medical care. For me it was a good 15 years for the metal to be removed <only supposed to be in for 18 months and was going on 16.5 years cost me ALOT!> As for MRI again the back log in Loma Linda was months, in Long Beach just a couple months. All location location location I guess.

Targ, don't worry about what the Docs say, they said my leg would be comming off, then they said it wouldn't work, then they said I'd be on crutches and canes and eventualy a wheelchair, and lol well it ain't happened yet ;) I actualy seem to be able to do a bit more than before. Just don't let them put it in your head, as well as don't baby it to much nor <my problem> do to much to fast, and drop the pounds if you need to that always helps.

Good luck on a speedy recovery.

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul you are smoking crack!

You're confusing that kind of crack with what happens when I bend over...:p

[jester]

You're confusing that kind of crack with what happens when I bend over...:p


Then I am reporting you to the plumbers union for violating their thing!

I mean, has anyone here ever had a plumber who didn't show to much crack?

[Targan]

Why is there a 6-8 week wait for an MRI down under?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was a similar wait here if it was through Medicare (the Aussie version of the NHS). Much quicker if you have health insurance or just pay cash.

[pmulcahy11b]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a similar wait here if it was through Medicare (the Aussie version of the NHS). Much quicker if you have health insurance or just pay cash.

No, I've been in MRI machines (for non-emergencies) less than 20 minutes after the doctor ordered the MRI. But I also have Tricare (the military's "HMO"); that might have helped.

[pmulcahy11b]

Then I am reporting you to the plumbers union for violating their thing!

I mean, has anyone here ever had a plumber who didn't show to much crack?

When you report me, tell them my kitchen sink faucet is leaking!

[TiggerCCW UK]

Last time I had an MRI the nurse thought I'd had a fit or a heart attack or something - my breathing went very strange and she couldn't get a response from me. I'd actually fallen asleep in the machine and started snoring :) I might not have been reg military, but I do have the soldiers ability to kip out anywhere.

[jester]

Last time I had one, well they had to do it several times.

Then the tech came out and said,

"We can't get a good image it's kinda fuzzy"


As he looked at the immage it dawned on him, "Do you have any metal in your leg?"

The M in MRI stands for "MAGNETIC" the Drs seemed to have forgotten that.

[pmulcahy11b]

Last time I had an MRI the nurse thought I'd had a fit or a heart attack or something - my breathing went very strange and she couldn't get a response from me. I'd actually fallen asleep in the machine and started snoring :) I might not have been reg military, but I do have the soldiers ability to kip out anywhere.

I've done that too. And with the medication I'm on, I've fallen asleep during root canals too, especially if the appointment is in the early morning.

[headquarters]

Then I am reporting you to the plumbers union for violating their thing!

I mean, has anyone here ever had a plumber who didn't show to much crack?


I think there are groups for people that are in rehab(recovery from their abuse .

[pmulcahy11b]

I think there are groups for people that are in rehab(recovery from their abuse .

<Stands up> My name is Paul Mulcahy, and I have a butt crack problem...

[Legbreaker]

<Stands up> My name is Paul Mulcahy, and I have a butt crack problem...
How that relates to the topic of this thread, grappling and melee, I really don't want to know....

:cool:

[Targan]

How that relates to the topic of this thread, grappling and melee, I really don't want to know....

:cool:
I think it has some small relevance. Are you going to grapple with a man who publicly announces he has a problem with his butt crack?

I think not. :sasmokin:

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I've done that too. And with the medication I'm on, I've fallen asleep during root canals too, especially if the appointment is in the early morning.

You too, huh? When I had my root canal in 1983/84, I always fell asleep too, my appointments were after school, I had my own car so I drove it to school then the dentist. Basically I just sat there immobile, can't take or do anything but listen to the radio to music so out I went. Actually when the dentist had to shift my head a bit, I was kind of miffed that he woke me up. I could look out the window but my glasses had to come off and I'm terminally nearsighted so I just went inward in my mind.

Same with MRI's, I had a few of those and when they had to do my neck for a car accident, I had to remain still not move my mouth or anything, I could not even talk. I know I could tap once for yes or two for no with my hand, bu that's the only communications I could do. At least with the chest, back and so on, I can talk.

Chuck M.

[Legbreaker]

Thanks Targ, I'll keep you informed. At the end of the day I can't complain too much, when I dinged the knee back in '91 the doctor told me I'd be on sticks permanently within 15 years.

How'd that MRI turn out anyway Tigger?

[pmulcahy11b]

Let me ignore butt crack problems (some of them mine) and get back to the topic:

I don't think there's much that can be done with grappling and melee within the framework of the rules. Probably, because ability scores are in percentiles instead of a d20 system, more could be simulated in v1 than in v2/2.2. But in v2.2, pretty much a karate expert and a kung fu expert both simply have high hand-to-hand scores.

OK, I changed my mind. I'll bet there are some of you who have already come up with a system that allows variations in martial arts.

[Legbreaker]

Let me ignore butt crack problems (some of them mine).

Paul, ignoring your problem won't make it go away. Stand up and take ownership, we all support you.
In spirit anyway, there's no way I'm going anywhere near your butt!

:cool:

[Targan]

Let me ignore butt crack problems (some of them mine) and get back to the topic:

I don't think there's much that can be done with grappling and melee within the framework of the rules. Probably, because ability scores are in percentiles instead of a d20 system, more could be simulated in v1 than in v2/2.2. But in v2.2, pretty much a karate expert and a kung fu expert both simply have high hand-to-hand scores.

OK, I changed my mind. I'll bet there are some of you who have already come up with a system that allows variations in martial arts.

Cyberpunk 2020 did some interesting things with martial arts and melee. Actually I'm just being lazy and haven't checked back to the start of the thread and I have a sneaking suspicion that CP 2020's system has been mentioned on this forum before. CP 2020's melee and martial arts system aren't as good as the system we used in my last T2K campaign but as far as fairly roolz-lite goes CP 2020's system isn't bad.

[James Langham]

A quick and dirty stab at a system. Characters taking unarmed combat skill have the OPTION to take a combat form that modifies their effective skill. E.G.

Boxing: +2 punching +1 grappling -2 kicking
Judo/Jui Jitsiu: +2 grappling -1 kicking
Karate: +1 kicking +1 punching -1grappling


Generally the character should end up +1 better off but reduced in at least 1 area.

Not sure how to handle characters who take more than one martial art, maybe making each a cascade skill?

It's simple and takes very little messing around with the rules. Hopefully just enough chrome without much book-keeping.

[B.T.]

@ James:
I think, this is an interesting way to go. Maybe I'll try this in my group.

The thing, that I think is really not that good in the T2k rules (I'm playing Ver2.2!), is the damage. I think, the damage should be increased, but I'm uncertain. Maybe:
Every punch, etc makes 1d6 damage, the "Unarmed Combat Damage" is a bonus. I'm to lazy, to go for my rules right now, but IIRC, the damage of a punch or a kick (Not a leaping kick!) is the same. If that's true, the damage of a kick should be higher than the damage of a punch.

Hm ...

[Legbreaker]

And the average 9mm pistol does 1D6 also... Doesn't that make a punch somewhat overpowered?

[Targan]

Other than coup-de-gras type situations, can a single shot from a 9mm actually kill you in any of the original 3 versions of T2K?

[Adm.Lee]

Other than coup-de-gras type situations, can a single shot from a 9mm actually kill you in any of the original 3 versions of T2K?

Head shots will get close, and can kill weaker NPCs.

[Targan]

Hmm. I'm well familiar with 1st ed, it's the others I was hazy on. 9mm not being able to kill average PCs with a headshot = poxy system. NPCs being innately easier to kill than PCs = poxy system. IMHO.

[Legbreaker]

In 2.x, anyone with a Constitution stat of 3 or less and it's possible. Head hit capacity is 2x Con. From memory, 1.0 isn't much different.

An Aimed shot which hits either the head or chest has a chance of an instant kill (roll a D10 - dead on equal or less than the number of damage dice of the bullet. ie 1-4 for a 7.62N, 1 for 9mmP).

2.2 also allows for double damage on an Outstanding Success on the hit roll.

While not personally familiar on an intimate level with 9mmP, I've heard anecdotes of VC barely staggering from a 9mmP burst at 50 metres. The follow up double tap 7.62N on the other hand....

[Targan]

In 2.x, anyone with a Constitution stat of 3 or less and it's possible. Head hit capacity is 2x Con. From memory, 1.0 isn't much different.

An Aimed shot which hits either the head or chest has a chance of an instant kill (roll a D10 - dead on equal or less than the number of damage dice of the bullet. ie 1-4 for a 7.62N, 1 for 9mmP).

2.2 also allows for double damage on an Outstanding Success on the hit roll.

Those rules are a bit more reasonable. Thanks for the explanation.

[Legbreaker]

It's worth noting that even a scratch can be potentially fatal - the injured party looses at least their next action, and depending on which version you're using may not be able to act for upwards of 30 seconds in which time their enemy may act with abandon. It only takes a little concussion damage to keep them down too while the attacker moves up for the killing shot/blow.

Therefore it's damn good practice for a PC with a high initiative to carry a grenade launcher, even if they don't have a very good (or even any) skill. Near enough is good enough....

And lets not even talk about infections!

[B.T.]

And the average 9mm pistol does 1D6 also... Doesn't that make a punch somewhat overpowered?
You're right! That's one of the reasons, why I'm not happy with the melee damages. The majority of PCs and detailed NPCs did not spent points to increase "Unarmed Melee". So the most PCs do a damage of "1". That's a bit weak. Maybe something like 1d6 / 2 or 1d3 damage, reducing the "Unarmed Combat Damage" and apply as a bonus?
I mean, an experienced martial artist can (under certain circumstances) break an opponents arm!

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

[Legbreaker]

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

I shoot the enemy. Eliminate the problem entirely! :green_fir

My theory is the army issues you with a rifle so you can shoot the enemy way over there.
They issue you a bayonet so you can stab the enemy way over there.
Why let them get close enough for a punch?

[B.T.]

My theory is the army issues you with a rifle so you can shoot the enemy way over there.
They issue you a bayonet so you can stab the enemy way over there.
Why let them get close enough for a punch?

:cool:

So it is written, so it shall be done ...

[Legbreaker]

One other option my be to treat unarmed damage as mostly Stun. Perhaps 1/4 is permanent (bruising, cracked ribs, etc) and the rest "disappears" after a suitable period?

[weswood]

The rules system I prefer (Top Secret/SI) has 3 types of damage: constitutition damage, for things like poison, bruise damage for things like punchinng, kicking and blunt weapons and wound damage for penetrating and slicing damage.

For example, a typical character has 5 hit points per area- head, left or right chest, abdomen, left/right arm, left/right hand and left/right leg. A baseball bat does 1-6 points wound damage, a 9mmP does 1-6 wound damage.

Hand to hand is determined by the character's skill check roll. The system uses percentile die to determine success/fail. It also gives a hit location and damage for weaponless hand to hand. If a character rolls a 40% in boxing, the "tens" die gives the amount of bruise damage (4 points) in the head (area 0= head). 4 points is lower than the character's total for that area, so he keeps on fighting. If it was 5 or more bruise points to the head, it would be a KO. At twice the amount of hit points, he'd have a cracked skull.

Wound damage supercedes bruise damage. If the character above got out of the fight with 4 bruise points to the head (call it a black eye for fun) and gets into a firefight later and takes 3 points from a firearm (wound damage) the character would have 3 points wound damage and 1 point bruise damage.

Maybe that would help, keep seperate track of wound and bruise damage for the T2K character. Maybe come up with a weaponless combat system with better damage potential.

[WallShadow]

<Delicately avoiding the entire "butt crack problems" and "violating plumbers' things(?!?)" discussion>

Lots of people who were members of the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) were also in the military _and_ stationed in Europe in the mid to late 1990's. I'm sure their melee skills would give them an advantage with baton/bat/axe/sword/club/spear, and they could teach shield-wall tactics to local ORMO troops for riot control-- mighty handy in the Great Free City of Krackow when the KGB-incited mob rises up in revolt.

I can also see some of them flying their heraldic devices to catch the attention of other SCAdians they might encounter. ("Holy crap! That's Sir Manfred's device painted on that BMP! Hold your fire!") Of course what the locals might think of this, who could tell? :D

[Bullet Magnet]

Hmm. I'm well familiar with 1st ed, it's the others I was hazy on. 9mm not being able to kill average PCs with a headshot = poxy system. NPCs being innately easier to kill than PCs = poxy system. IMHO.

No game system is perfect, in my opinion.
Also, a 9mm could kill an average person in 1st edition, at least at closer ranges.
Head HP = CON score; average character would have a 10
9mmP damage = Base 1; plus 1d6 (at extreme range)
At close range, this figure is multiplies by four. So, at close range, a 9mm would inflict 4 + (4d6); the average damage for this ends up at 18 points. So, it is possible.

As for NPCs being easier to kill, yeah you got a point there. I always thought that seemed a bit too hollywood.

[Legbreaker]

V1 damage was pretty nasty, almost as nasty (and realistic) as the healing times. Get wounded beyond slight in V1 and you might as well roll up a new PC - the wait on healing could be months!

[Badbru]

You're right! That's one of the reasons, why I'm not happy with the melee damages. The majority of PCs and detailed NPCs did not spent points to increase "Unarmed Melee". So the most PCs do a damage of "1". That's a bit weak. Maybe something like 1d6 / 2 or 1d3 damage, reducing the "Unarmed Combat Damage" and apply as a bonus?
I mean, an experienced martial artist can (under certain circumstances) break an opponents arm!

How do you handle this, Leg? (Now, off course, if anyone else want's to give his 2 cents, you're welcome!)

I don't mess with the damage system. Once you change one part of it, melee, bullets, you then need to change explosions etc etc...

Just reduce hit points.

Instead of head being Con x2 I have it as just Con.
Instead of chest being Str + Con x3 I have it as just x2
Instead of all other areas being Str + Con x2, just Str + Con.

Everything just becomes a little more lethal, including poisions and infections, diseases... etc etc.
Simple.

And, maybe I got it wrong back in the day but I allways played melee as being +1d6. The melee damage is points, not dice, so the +1d6 was the randomiser. Maybe I have it wrong but that allways worked ok for us.

[Legbreaker]

As I was sort of indicating before, melee combat is rarely used in my games as there's far better methods of dealing with the enemy. If silence is required, crossbows, hunting bows, silencers and the like all have their place. If it's absolutely NECESSARY to lay actual hands on an enemy to ensure their silence, the fight is already lost unless absolute surprise is gained. In that case the damage is probably irrelevant and the result should be up to a straight skill roll and GM judgement.

[Targan]

Really? I find that incredibly sad. A hard fought, close in melee or martial arts fight can be a highpoint of any T2K session. The more realistic the rules for that, the better. Again, IMHO.

[Legbreaker]

Why take a knife to a gun fight? For that matter, why go unarmed at all?
Hit 'em hard, hit 'em fast with the biggest, nastiest weapon you can lay your hands on I say. There's nothing great about a fair fight when your life is on the line.
The best result is red mist.

[Targan]

I'm not suggesting that you go in unarmed. There have been many times that I can think of in games I've run where people have got into melee and martial arts fights while armed with firearms. Face to face negotiations during a trade could go horribly wrong, for instance. And in one mini-campaign I ran in which the PCs were French Foreign Legionnaires on a mission near the Iran-Iraq border the game culminated in a vicious fight among the thorn bushes with a bunch of Spetznaz, a couple of the PCs got down to one magazine left each and then fixed bayonets and charged in to meet their ends in ways befitting of real men :D

[Legbreaker]

I'm all for going medieval on their arses when it's needed. Nothing like the fear of a bit of cold steal up 'em to sort the men from the boys!

That's another issue again though. How to adequately model the fear somebody swinging a big chunk of sharp metal at close range will instil on the intended recipient. I know from experience that even in an exercise it tends to make grown men go white and think twice about holding their ground when it's forcefully presented. :bash:

[leonpoi]

An option could be porting over a melee system from a melee-oriented game that has similar dice d20 or say d100 brought back to d20. The most obvious choice for me would be flashing blades because it's d20 with roughly similar hit chances. Grapple isn't crash hot but otherwise the combat is an improvement over tw2k with only a little bit of work. It takes into account weapon length and I think it would end up as a pretty good melee mini game sub for the base rules (which are massively deficient and flawed).

[weswood]

My first T2K game waaayyyy back in '86, my character started out as a POW of the Russians in Alaska, where the rest of the PCs were operating. My character, a helicopter pilot with some mad skills in unarmed combat was being escorted by a single guard when the main PCs attack the facility. My character kicked the guard, one hell of a good roll, broke the guard's neck in a single kick. He got the handcuff keys off the guard and uncuffed himself, and armed with the guard's AK surprise attacked the Russians.

[James Langham]

@ James:
I think, this is an interesting way to go. Maybe I'll try this in my group.

The thing, that I think is really not that good in the T2k rules (I'm playing Ver2.2!), is the damage. I think, the damage should be increased, but I'm uncertain. Maybe:
Every punch, etc makes 1d6 damage, the "Unarmed Combat Damage" is a bonus. I'm to lazy, to go for my rules right now, but IIRC, the damage of a punch or a kick (Not a leaping kick!) is the same. If that's true, the damage of a kick should be higher than the damage of a punch.

Hm ...

Please try it and let me know. If it works I'll write it up as an article. Kicks are harder to do than a punch so maybe -1 skill but +1 effective skill for figuring the damage? Depends how much detail you want.

Maybe we should also figure the armed melee combat into a similar system.
Thoughts from everyone before I start work?

[DigTw0Grav3s]

Honestly, kicks are more of a range modifier to me, not a damage difference.

Shadowrun had a pretty good reach system for melee. If your melee implement (including kicks) had a longer effective range than your opponent's, you could leverage that standoff distance as an offensive or defensive modifier.

If you combine some kind of system like that with a constriction factor, I think you would have a really solid basis for the basic striking system. A sword is great in the middle of a field, but if you're in a narrow hallway, a knife will probably be more practical.

Start there, then you can potentially start adding to the grappling system.

[leonpoi]

My first T2K game waaayyyy back in '86, my character started out as a POW of the Russians in Alaska, where the rest of the PCs were operating. My character, a helicopter pilot with some mad skills in unarmed combat was being escorted by a single guard when the main PCs attack the facility. My character kicked the guard, one hell of a good roll, broke the guard's neck in a single kick. He got the handcuff keys off the guard and uncuffed himself, and armed with the guard's AK surprise attacked the Russians.

In 2.2 that couldn't happen; kicks hit on location as d6+4, so can't hit location 1 the head.:rolleyes:

[James Langham]

In 2.2 that couldn't happen; kicks hit on location as d6+4, so can't hit location 1 the head.:rolleyes:

When I write up I will probably introduce a system that varies the hit location die by skill level. Quick thought (probably to be changed later):

Skill level 1-4: kick 1D6+4, punch 1D6
Skill level 5-8: kick 1D10 punch 1D10
SKill level 9+ any choose either 1D6+4 or 1D10 or 1D6

[B.T.]

When I write up I will probably introduce a system that varies the hit location die by skill level. Quick thought (probably to be changed later):

Skill level 1-4: kick 1D6+4, punch 1D6
Skill level 5-8: kick 1D10 punch 1D10
SKill level 9+ any choose either 1D6+4 or 1D10 or 1D6

It definately makes sense to me, to increase the damage, if the skill is higher.
My first RPG was "Midgard", a German (Fantasy!) RPG, that was never translated into English. The damage for an unarmed melee attack was something like 1d6 - 4. In comparison: A dagger has a damage of 1d6 - 1.
Depending on strength and agility, (N)PCs can have a bonus (from +1 to +4) to the damage. This bonus is added to all handheld weapons (and unarmed melee), not to ranged weapons (crossbows, slings, bows, etc.!).
If a character increases his skill in unarmed meleee, his damage gets higher. IIRC, the highest damage would be 1d6 - 2 (+ bonus, if the character is strong/agile enough.)

I think, basing the actual damage of an attack with naked fists on the skill level makes sense!

[weswood]

In 2.2 that couldn't happen; kicks hit on location as d6+4, so can't hit location 1 the head.:rolleyes:

V1 rules. I don't remember the skill levels, but I remember the character being able to do 2 things really, really well- Martial Arts and flying helicopters. Pretty useless otherwise.

[James Langham]

First attempt at adding some chrome. Please feel free to comment as ever.

[B.T.]

I allways imagined Bobby Lee being black haired :D

Looks good to me, I will definately give those rules a test run in my next FtF game.

[weswood]

First attempt at adding some chrome. Please feel free to comment as ever.

You should call them Rangerettes vice Rangeresses. Rolls off the toungue easier. Good work.

[James Langham]

I allways imagined Bobby Lee being black haired :D

Looks good to me, I will definately give those rules a test run in my next FtF game.

there was always the debate which character she was in the cover of the boxed set, does anyone have a definitive answer?

[James Langham]

You should call them Rangerettes vice Rangeresses. Rolls off the toungue easier. Good work.

Thanks, I thought that made them sound too much like cheerleaders. Anyone else have any thoughts? I perhaps need a note that the official term is "Ranger."

Interesting that the first two comments are about the background detail and Bobbi Lee in particular... :-)

[Rainbow Six]

there was always the debate which character she was in the cover of the boxed set, does anyone have a definitive answer?

Not definitive, but I always presumed she was the blonde haired one on the extreme right (as you look at the picture). The other woman looks like she's responsible for firing the Humvee's weapon and has what looks like a combat vehicle crewman's helmet on, which suggests to me her background is mech infantry or armoured?

[Rainbow Six]

Thanks, I thought that made them sound too much like cheerleaders. Anyone else have any thoughts? I perhaps need a note that the official term is "Ranger."

Interesting that the first two comments are about the background detail and Bobbi Lee in particular... :-)

Amazons?

American Amazons?

Women Lead The Way?

Valkyries?

American Valkyries?

GI Jane? (Film of same name wasn't released until August 1997, so your TV series might have first dibs on it)

Xena, Ranger Princess? OK, maybe not...

[weswood]

I've always thought Bobbi Lee was the blond.

[pmulcahy11b]

I've always thought Bobbi Lee was the blond.

No way! Bobbi Lee is definitely a brunette, almost black in hair color.

[weswood]

No way! Bobbi Lee is definitely a brunette, almost black in hair color.

You just stay out of my fantasies!

[James Langham]

Updated version with as few clarifications and a few extra art forms.

And Bobbi Lee stays blonde pending a definitive answer (I even checked our archives, it appears that this debate has gone on for some time...)

[weswood]

I love the quote from the General "Some people have called them Rangerettes or Rangeresses. Makes them sound like cheerleaders".

[pmulcahy11b]

And Bobbi Lee stays blonde pending a definitive answer (I even checked our archives, it appears that this debate has gone on for some time...)

OK, but you have agree that brunettes are hotter!

[weswood]

OK, but you have agree that brunettes are hotter!

This proves it. You are insane! :D

[Legbreaker]

Sorry, but Paul is just sooooo right on this one! :p

[weswood]

Sorry, but Paul is just sooooo right on this one! :p

Maybe I'm biased, being blonde myself. Then again redheads are smoking to mee but they were never part of this.

[Targan]

Well this thread is still on topic for grappling I guess, and maybe melee (swordplay?) :D