Getting a Farm Going

[Enfield]

My campaign is going to be focused on a group of survivors mostly civilians, trying to get an abandoned farm going. It is in Western Washington (Cascadia, as per the Pacific Northwest Sourcebook) The players love the idea of following the Proconsul but he is nowhere near where they are. They have neither a vehicle nor horses at the moment, so he is just a voice on the radio they hear making inspiring speeches.

I worked out a series of tasks for the characters to get the farm up and running, but are there any things I'm missing?

1. Figure out how to do farming. None of the civilians or PCs are farmers.

2. Plow, seed, irrigate, care for the crops. They can find a silo with wheat seed, and bins with potato, carrot, peas and beans.

3. Figure out how to get the well working.

4. Find fuel for the diesel generator

5. Find machinery for the farm

6. At present, the group have MREs but there are 11 people with the group and they will only last another 24 days. Food is also going to be a problem.

My intention is to make the first phase of the campaign about them gaining control of the farm. Then I may have other events happen after that, but I feel that in a way the mini adventures will almost write themselves as they will have to forage and scrounge the area.

[wolffhound79]

That sounds interesting. I be interested to hear updates. Sounds like one of those reality survivor shows of a group of people trying to rebuild after a natural disaster.

[mpipes]

They are also going to need to clear out the fields. After even just a full year of no agricultural activity, a lot of undergrowth will be there. Easiest way is slash and burn.

Plowing is going to be a bitch. If you have a horse plow, you still need a trained horse or mule, and the harness to attach the plow to the horse/mule.

You need a tractor, then to attach to the tractor you need a plow (minimum), a bush hog, a planter, a fertilizer spreader, and a sprayer (assuming there are any insecticides around). The sprayer can double as a water sprayer as well.

If trying to raise livestock, you need a hay bailer, a cutter, and a hay rake. Of course you can opt for round bails, but that is really not recommended for horses.

[Legbreaker]

I suspect they'd want to start small - a patch large enough to support just themselves plus a few extra bodies. Keeping things small to begin with should keep it manageable with only hand tools and whatever small, manpowered equipment they can scrounge up to begin with.
Definitely don't want to go with a monoculture, but grow numerous different types of crops just in case of disease, pests, etc attacking one (or more) of them.

[CraigD6er]

Interesting. As they have neither horse nor vehicle to start with it is going to be a massive amount of work to manage a farm with 11 people. Farming isn't an instant process and they are going to have to become hunter/gatherers whilst the crops come in. Assuming someone over the radio can talk them through what to do, there is still a massive learning curve for people that haven't perhaps even grown vegetables themselves; it is also a lot of hard labour for people that may not be used to it. I have a couple of inherited books showing both hand tools and horse drawn farm implements. Firstly clearing the land of the vegetation that has sprung up after any period of neglect. Without horses, you're looking at breast ploughs if they want furrows, hand sowing or maybe a fiddle spreader to sow the seeds at some point, hoes to keep the weeds down and prevent them strangling your crop, sickles or scythes to harvest the grain (a trained farm hand with a scythe can possibly do an acre of wheat a day, which may yield 4-5000 loaves if the crop is very good and there is little to no wastage at any stage of the processing), flails or similar to process (threshing/winnowing) it. That may produce 6 or 7 bushels per day, for experienced farm hands with no interruptions, and your acre will produce 40-50 bushels. All of that assumes that someone knows what these tools are and can find heritage ones or make them and then learn how to use them, otherwise it's really backwards (and backbreaking) using make-do tools. Even in the early twentieth century when farm implements were far more common, labour was a massive drain on a community. One source I have suggested an average English farm could keep a large staff busy over the winter just processing the grain they'd harvested. That's without maintenance of fences and buildings, looking after any livestock, and in this setting guarding against marauders or wild animals etc.
Depending on the terrain and climate, there is drainage and watering to manage, pests to be kept down (insects, small mammals and birds). There's the threat of a bad harvest, blight, storm damage and more. One bad event and the years produce is lost. If all does go well, then next year you prepare the ground and repeat, ad nauseam.
Assuming all goes well, 5,000 loaves will provide for these 11 people for a year, but at less than subsistance level, especially given the work they are doing and the calories they are burning through. So they are going to need to diversify. Fruits, root crops etc to make up the balance, plus whatever they can hunt or fish.

[Enfield]

They are also going to need to clear out the fields. After even just a full year of no agricultural activity, a lot of undergrowth will be there. Easiest way is slash and burn.

Plowing is going to be a bitch. If you have a horse plow, you still need a trained horse or mule, and the harness to attach the plow to the horse/mule.

You need a tractor, then to attach to the tractor you need a plow (minimum), a bush hog, a planter, a fertilizer spreader, and a sprayer (assuming there are any insecticides around). The sprayer can double as a water sprayer as well.

If trying to raise livestock, you need a hay bailer, a cutter, and a hay rake. Of course you can opt for round bails, but that is really not recommended for horses.


When I was researching Kettle Falls, there are several construction and farm equipment companies based out of it and Colville, so I will be using a scrounge table to see if they can get the right equipment.

I decided that there are two small communities within reach that will refuse to take in any new people but will trade with peaceful travelers. One community will be based on the Everytown from 2013, so they can also perform tasks for them in exchange for some of the surplus goods from there.

[Enfield]

I suspect they'd want to start small - a patch large enough to support just themselves plus a few extra bodies. Keeping things small to begin with should keep it manageable with only hand tools and whatever small, manpowered equipment they can scrounge up to begin with.
Definitely don't want to go with a monoculture, but grow numerous different types of crops just in case of disease, pests, etc attacking one (or more) of them.

Keeping things small may work for them. The idea of a variety of crops is a good idea too. I take it you are referring to a variety of cereals, like say corn, wheat, oats, etc?

[Enfield]

Interesting. As they have neither horse nor vehicle to start with it is going to be a massive amount of work to manage a farm with 11 people. Farming isn't an instant process and they are going to have to become hunter/gatherers whilst the crops come in. Assuming someone over the radio can talk them through what to do, there is still a massive learning curve for people that haven't perhaps even grown vegetables themselves; it is also a lot of hard labour for people that may not be used to it. I have a couple of inherited books showing both hand tools and horse drawn farm implements. Firstly clearing the land of the vegetation that has sprung up after any period of neglect. Without horses, you're looking at breast ploughs if they want furrows, hand sowing or maybe a fiddle spreader to sow the seeds at some point, hoes to keep the weeds down and prevent them strangling your crop, sickles or scythes to harvest the grain (a trained farm hand with a scythe can possibly do an acre of wheat a day, which may yield 4-5000 loaves if the crop is very good and there is little to no wastage at any stage of the processing), flails or similar to process (threshing/winnowing) it. That may produce 6 or 7 bushels per day, for experienced farm hands with no interruptions, and your acre will produce 40-50 bushels. All of that assumes that someone knows what these tools are and can find heritage ones or make them and then learn how to use them, otherwise it's really backwards (and backbreaking) using make-do tools. Even in the early twentieth century when farm implements were far more common, labour was a massive drain on a community. One source I have suggested an average English farm could keep a large staff busy over the winter just processing the grain they'd harvested. That's without maintenance of fences and buildings, looking after any livestock, and in this setting guarding against marauders or wild animals etc.
Depending on the terrain and climate, there is drainage and watering to manage, pests to be kept down (insects, small mammals and birds). There's the threat of a bad harvest, blight, storm damage and more. One bad event and the years produce is lost. If all does go well, then next year you prepare the ground and repeat, ad nauseam.
Assuming all goes well, 5,000 loaves will provide for these 11 people for a year, but at less than subsistance level, especially given the work they are doing and the calories they are burning through. So they are going to need to diversify. Fruits, root crops etc to make up the balance, plus whatever they can hunt or fish.

One thing I want to do is have their shortwave contact with the Proconsul's people give them advice. That will be one source of information. Your ticking off the points above is well taken. I have a hard time imagining the people in the group managing a farm without heavy equipment. I knew a young woman from Nepal who was an actual peasant, as an example and it was kind of shocking how good she was at manual labour. I don't think even modern farmhands in North American could manage what she did. (For example she could mow a lawn with a machete as efficiently as a weed whacker with the neatness and consistency of a professional landscaper)

One thing I was wondering about is how well the orchards that are in the Okanagan Valley would have fared. I don't know how well they will last if any of them are untended.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Finding an intact library with books on farming would be very helpful.

[Legbreaker]

I take it you are referring to a variety of cereals, like say corn, wheat, oats, etc?

Corn isn't very economical for the space required, and neither are most other grains.
They'd be best served growing higher yield per area crops such as potatoes, carrots, bean, tomato, pumpkin, etc. Basically what you might find in the average backyard garden.
Save the grains for later when they'd obtained a way to till larger areas.

Animals are another item that can wait to begin with, although if they do happen to come across some cows, sheep or whatever, there's no point not grabbing them, provided they've got a secure field to put them in (and winter shelter if it's an area that would require that). That said, a small herd of goats or pigs will do wonders when it comes to clearing away weeds, and pigs have the added bonus of digging up the earth for you too.
Chickens are likewise great to have scratching around, eating pests and fertilising as they go.

Once they obtain livestock they're going to have to think about predators too, both four and two legged. Dealing with them might involve locking the animals away in a barn at night, posting sentries, or hunting potential predators (or even all three and more options).

After harvesting, vermin could become a major problem. Mice LOVE food stores, especially grains.... https://youtu.be/rAdNJ1jczVI Note that's happening now at a time when baits, electronic repellents, etc are all readily available.

[Silent Hunter UK]

Cats are good for vermin. Cute too.

[Legbreaker]

Cats are good for vermin. Cute too.

Not exactly terrible as emergency rations either.....

[Olefin]

Also keep in mind are you just farming to produce food only for the 11 people or are you looking to get something you may be able to use for trade or even biomass for ethanol fuel. And the choice of crops is important as some vegetables keep much longer than others and thus will provide a longer duration source of food.

Finding someone who can show them how to properly jar tomatoes for instance can lead to them having to search abandoned houses for canning jars or containers that could be used.

Also they should be looking for ways they can maximize growing that wont require a lot of fuel or clearing/plowing land - you can grow mushrooms inside your house if you know how to, potted tomato and pepper plants, potatoes grown using dirt in large garbage cans.

[Enfield]

Corn isn't very economical for the space required, and neither are most other grains.
They'd be best served growing higher yield per area crops such as potatoes, carrots, bean, tomato, pumpkin, etc. Basically what you might find in the average backyard garden.
Save the grains for later when they'd obtained a way to till larger areas.

Animals are another item that can wait to begin with, although if they do happen to come across some cows, sheep or whatever, there's no point not grabbing them, provided they've got a secure field to put them in (and winter shelter if it's an area that would require that). That said, a small herd of goats or pigs will do wonders when it comes to clearing away weeds, and pigs have the added bonus of digging up the earth for you too.
Chickens are likewise great to have scratching around, eating pests and fertilising as they go.

Once they obtain livestock they're going to have to think about predators too, both four and two legged. Dealing with them might involve locking the animals away in a barn at night, posting sentries, or hunting potential predators (or even all three and more options).

After harvesting, vermin could become a major problem. Mice LOVE food stores, especially grains.... https://youtu.be/rAdNJ1jczVI Note that's happening now at a time when baits, electronic repellents, etc are all readily available.

Good point on the grains. I think that the other problem with them too is that other than sweet corn they require a lot of processing, threshing, husking, etc.

And geeze, I didn't even think of the vermin problem. Rats and mice will be a huge issue. How good are they at getting into food bins and silos?

[Enfield]

Also keep in mind are you just farming to produce food only for the 11 people or are you looking to get something you may be able to use for trade or even biomass for ethanol fuel. And the choice of crops is important as some vegetables keep much longer than others and thus will provide a longer duration source of food.

Finding someone who can show them how to properly jar tomatoes for instance can lead to them having to search abandoned houses for canning jars or containers that could be used.

Also they should be looking for ways they can maximize growing that wont require a lot of fuel or clearing/plowing land - you can grow mushrooms inside your house if you know how to, potted tomato and pepper plants, potatoes grown using dirt in large garbage cans.

Thanks, these are also very good points. I was assuming that they'd be growing crops. I think as far as the group goes, they may just be thinking of trying to survive the year.

What kinds of vegetables keep longer? Things like potatoes?

[Vespers War]

On the animal side, rabbits are a surprisingly good animal to raise if you can keep them safe, clean, and fed. A herd of cows produces about 20% of their mass as harvestable meat per year. Rabbits or chickens are 500%, and rabbits can be fed more things that aren't edible for humans. An acre of hutches (which sounds ridiculous, I know, but this was being researched for space stations) running efficiently will produce 145 pounds of meat per day. Their manure is also better for fertilizer than cow, horse, or chicken, and it won't burn plants if it's not composted properly.

For preservation, winter squash, potatoes, and onions will last a long time if stored in a cool, dry area. Some other root crops can be left in the ground during winter in cool areas if they're covered with a thick layer of leaves or straw. (This also makes them less visible to raiders or scavengers).

Lots of stuff can be dried, which will keep for months or years. It's (ironically) a bit water-intensive, since most things should be blanched before drying and water's often needed for reconstitution, but it'll preserve food. Even without a purpose-built dehydrator, vegetables can be dried near a stove or with sunlight.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Have the PCs be taught the Ruth Stout method of gardening, it partially mitigates some of the main issues that complete newcomers to farming would have to deal with - it's not so labour intensive, it doesn't need as much water, it doesn't need weeding. But it is not without it's own negatives, it requires nitrogen which can, however, be conveniently supplied by fresh grass.
Much better detail here: -
https://www.bigblogofgardening.com/growing-organic-food-with-the-ruth-stout-method/

And as an example of how effective it can be, how does 337 pounds of potatoes sound? Details in the following video: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlratwBT5OI

The YouTube channel where that video is from is definitely worth browsing, they explore some questions we typically don't think of, such as, can you eat grass, how to make a root cellar out of an old chest freezer and so on.

[Raellus]

What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/blog-news/how-to-grow-a-three-sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/lessons/curricula/the-three-sisters-exploring-an-iroquois-garden/how-to-plant-the-three-sisters/

-

[Enfield]

On the animal side, rabbits are a surprisingly good animal to raise if you can keep them safe, clean, and fed. A herd of cows produces about 20% of their mass as harvestable meat per year. Rabbits or chickens are 500%, and rabbits can be fed more things that aren't edible for humans. An acre of hutches (which sounds ridiculous, I know, but this was being researched for space stations) running efficiently will produce 145 pounds of meat per day. Their manure is also better for fertilizer than cow, horse, or chicken, and it won't burn plants if it's not composted properly.

For preservation, winter squash, potatoes, and onions will last a long time if stored in a cool, dry area. Some other root crops can be left in the ground during winter in cool areas if they're covered with a thick layer of leaves or straw. (This also makes them less visible to raiders or scavengers).

Lots of stuff can be dried, which will keep for months or years. It's (ironically) a bit water-intensive, since most things should be blanched before drying and water's often needed for reconstitution, but it'll preserve food. Even without a purpose-built dehydrator, vegetables can be dried near a stove or with sunlight.


Good ideas. The characters might try to explore other farms in the area. I am going with the idea from the module that the area near the Columbia River north of the Coulee Dam is mostly insular. So that could be interesting. I figure that livestock like rabbits or chickens that go feral would be surviving, but they also could trade for them.

Thank you for the ideas on preservation. I will include that in the advice the PCs are given.

[Enfield]

Have the PCs be taught the Ruth Stout method of gardening, it partially mitigates some of the main issues that complete newcomers to farming would have to deal with - it's not so labour intensive, it doesn't need as much water, it doesn't need weeding. But it is not without it's own negatives, it requires nitrogen which can, however, be conveniently supplied by fresh grass.
Much better detail here: -
https://www.bigblogofgardening.com/growing-organic-food-with-the-ruth-stout-method/

And as an example of how effective it can be, how does 337 pounds of potatoes sound? Details in the following video: -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlratwBT5OI

The YouTube channel where that video is from is definitely worth browsing, they explore some questions we typically don't think of, such as, can you eat grass, how to make a root cellar out of an old chest freezer and so on.

that's a good idea for the options, and I can use the Youtube video as inspiration for their instructions.

[Enfield]

What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/blog-news/how-to-grow-a-three-sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/lessons/curricula/the-three-sisters-exploring-an-iroquois-garden/how-to-plant-the-three-sisters/

-

There is a major reservation near the area. I wonder if they practice such growing in that area though? Isn't that practice an Eastern tradition?

[Olefin]

Good ideas. The characters might try to explore other farms in the area. I am going with the idea from the module that the area near the Columbia River north of the Coulee Dam is mostly insular. So that could be interesting. I figure that livestock like rabbits or chickens that go feral would be surviving, but they also could trade for them.

Thank you for the ideas on preservation. I will include that in the advice the PCs are given.

Good article on vegetables that can be left in the ground for your players for the farm - https://lovelygreens.com/storing-root-vegetables-ground/#:~:text=Why%20do%20it%2C%20when%20a,%2C%20turnips %2C%20radishes%20and%20carrots.

[Milano]

I am only a rancher here in California but, as for agriculture I know that it all depends upon water, weather, and luck. If I were to go about it I would:

1st.. Catch Rabbits. For an immediate food source. Easy to breed. Cheap. Food is fairly easy to get for them; weeds, grass, flowers etc.

2nd... get a water source. Spring Boxes are easy to build. A redwood box dug into the ground about 3 or 4 feet. Pipe at the bottom going down hill into a storage tank. Pump water to high elevation and gravity feed from there.

3rd.. Harvesting and ground work equipment would be tough to maintain I think. Far harder to find or make the correct bushings for a disk plow than that of a Chevy pickup.

4th.. Cultivating ground for farming. Cow manure, rabbit offal, etc is a good fertilizer in lieu of the real stuff! Remember that someone with civil engineering could get the fall right for irrigating also.

4th.. Start transplants. Efficiency is found by growing transplants and planting the little started plants into actual farm fields. Think Green House to start them.

5th.. Get Cows and horses. The West Wasn't won on Carrots. (Had to plug my livelihood.) (Also Vesper, depending upon breed of cow, health etc etc. We look for a 60 to 65% yield. It takes me about 7 months of normal natural grass to get a 600 to 700 pound steer and I live in a lackluster enviroment.)

6th.. Pesticides, weeding, and water. Irrigation pipe would be fairly easy to find, especially in suburbs. 3/4" pvc with 1/8" holes drilled into it would work and that is found in every yard, with a shovel.

7th.. Rotation due to season. Strawberries do NOT do well in the rain for example. They get destroyed.

8th.. harvesting storage etc. I would again go with cats. I will also admit that this is where my knowledge starts failing me.

I hope I'm not being too wordy but there is quite alot of roll playing that can go into this and I am interested to see how this plays out with your group. Once it got going it is viable.

[Legbreaker]

...it requires nitrogen...

Rotating or companion planting a crop of legumes helps a LOT to fix nitrogen in the soil for use by other plants. https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/edible/vegetables/vgen/what-are-legumes.htm

[Legbreaker]

How good are they at getting into food bins and silos?
My house is damn near airtight, yet I'm still getting them inside. :mad:

[Enfield]

Good article on vegetables that can be left in the ground for your players for the farm - https://lovelygreens.com/storing-root-vegetables-ground/#:~:text=Why%20do%20it%2C%20when%20a,%2C%20turnips %2C%20radishes%20and%20carrots.

Thanks!

[Enfield]

My house is damn near airtight, yet I'm still getting them inside. :mad:

Poison apparently works quite well. What do you use?

[Enfield]

I am only a rancher here in California but, as for agriculture I know that it all depends upon water, weather, and luck. If I were to go about it I would:

1st.. Catch Rabbits. For an immediate food source. Easy to breed. Cheap. Food is fairly easy to get for them; weeds, grass, flowers etc.

2nd... get a water source. Spring Boxes are easy to build. A redwood box dug into the ground about 3 or 4 feet. Pipe at the bottom going down hill into a storage tank. Pump water to high elevation and gravity feed from there.

3rd.. Harvesting and ground work equipment would be tough to maintain I think. Far harder to find or make the correct bushings for a disk plow than that of a Chevy pickup.

4th.. Cultivating ground for farming. Cow manure, rabbit offal, etc is a good fertilizer in lieu of the real stuff! Remember that someone with civil engineering could get the fall right for irrigating also.

4th.. Start transplants. Efficiency is found by growing transplants and planting the little started plants into actual farm fields. Think Green House to start them.

5th.. Get Cows and horses. The West Wasn't won on Carrots. (Had to plug my livelihood.) (Also Vesper, depending upon breed of cow, health etc etc. We look for a 60 to 65% yield. It takes me about 7 months of normal natural grass to get a 600 to 700 pound steer and I live in a lackluster enviroment.)

6th.. Pesticides, weeding, and water. Irrigation pipe would be fairly easy to find, especially in suburbs. 3/4" pvc with 1/8" holes drilled into it would work and that is found in every yard, with a shovel.

7th.. Rotation due to season. Strawberries do NOT do well in the rain for example. They get destroyed.

8th.. harvesting storage etc. I would again go with cats. I will also admit that this is where my knowledge starts failing me.

I hope I'm not being too wordy but there is quite alot of roll playing that can go into this and I am interested to see how this plays out with your group. Once it got going it is viable.

Thank you for the recommendations for planning.

As I understand it, the Okanagan Valley is a somewhat dry climate but works well for orchard crops. Do you know anything about ranching in that part of the state?

One thing I have often observed when watching post apocalyptic TV and movies is how often characters avoid areas in rural towns where they might have construction equipment, farming equipment, etc. If the rural folk have been driven out by hordes of refugees or marauders, it seems to me that there might still be heavy equipment to scavenge. One problem will be that they will not be experienced at handling or maintaining it if they do find it. The other will probably be finding a supply of diesel or getting the vehicles converted to alternate fuel.

One good thing the party does have is a well, which they have to maintain and clear contaminants from.

[Vespers War]

Thank you for the recommendations for planning.

As I understand it, the Okanagan Valley is a somewhat dry climate but works well for orchard crops. Do you know anything about ranching in that part of the state?

Portions of a 2011 census of crops and farm animals for Thompson-Okanagan:
Grain 6,500 hectares
Corn for silage 3,344 ha
Hay and pasture 437,000 ha
Alfalfa 42,418 ha
Hay 61,162 ha
Potatoes 170 ha
Fruits, berries and nuts 9,598 ha
Field grown vegetables 887 ha

Hens and chickens 1,808,625
Cattle and calves 171,000
Pigs 1,135
Sheep 13,603
Horses and ponies 11,672
Rabbits 987
Goats 3,534

(all from this PDF (https://www.bcaitc.ca/sites/default/files/Grow%20BC/Regions/GrowBC_2014_Thompson%20Okanagan%20Region.pdf))

[Vespers War]

What about the Native Americans' "Three Sisters" method of planting beans, squash, and corn all together? It's pretty efficient in terms of labor, and the space-to-yield ratio is favorable.

https://www.nativeseeds.org/blogs/blog-news/how-to-grow-a-three-sisters-garden

Here's a quote from the blog:

"Corn provides tall stalks for the beans to climb so that they are not out-competed by sprawling squash vines. Beans provide nitrogen to fertilize the soil while also stabilizing the tall corn during heavy winds. Beans are nitrogen-fixers meaning they host rhizobia on their roots that can take nitrogen, a much needed plant nutrient, from the air and convert it into forms that can be absorbed by plant roots. The large leaves of squash plants shade the ground which helps retain soil moisture and prevent weeds."

https://gardening.cals.cornell.edu/lessons/curricula/the-three-sisters-exploring-an-iroquois-garden/how-to-plant-the-three-sisters/

-

Long-term, milpa agriculture ends up being basically a five field system, because it follows two years of cultivation with eight years left fallow. It's effective, but it ends up requiring a good amount of space over the long haul because of the long fallow period.

Other crops can also be included - pumpkin, avocado, chili - but I haven't read what the proper spacing of planting is for the additional crops.

[swaghauler]

Keep in mind that if you are not gardening (I highly espouse the Ruth Stout method), that there are three important steps to growing food by the acre (or hectare if you prefer). For visualization, remember that an Acre is the size of a FOOTBALL FIELD (around 100m X 50m wide) and a Hectare is 2.47 times the acre in size (10,000 total meters). This is a big space. The three steps to prepping a field are...

1) INITIAL MULCHING AND NUTRIENT ADD: This is normally done in the fall after the harvest. If you have ever seen a cornfield or wheat field that was harvested, you will see stubs of stalks that are bent over and left to rot. This is INTENTIONAL. Those stalks are putting nutrients back into the soil. This is often leavened with grass cuttings and dead leaves. It is best to let these rot on top of the field ALL WINTER. IF you "breaking in" a new field, you should let this debris molder on top of the field for at least a week. The wetter the better as it promotes rot.

2) EARLY SPRING TURNING: Your field has moldered all winter and you have a good debris cover going. Now it's time to turn over those nutrients that will feed your crops long-term. A MouldBoard Plow or Chisel Plow will cut deep ruts and roll that mulch down into the ground where your crops will feed on it all summer long. Once the field is turned, in comes the "boost nutrients" to be laid on the field for up to a week before the initial planting. These nutrients include Nitrogen and the rapid growth food for your crops. In my neck of the woods that would be cow manure turned into a liquid mixture resembling a thick soup. This goes on top and is allowed to soak in. It's what gives you that "Fresh country air" aroma every spring. After a week, this too gets turned over to ensure the soil is now fully capable of being Furrow Plowed.

Please note that there are several alternatives to using modern fertilizers and these methods are STILL being used today. Some common methods to "season" a field including using a "fish slurry" made up of parts of any fish you ate that were left. These parts (including bones) are ground into a "meal" and added to the ashes from a fire to produce a Potassium-rich compound for poor soils. This is then applied as a "slurry" just like manure is. This is the technique the American Indians showed the Colonists at Plymouth to help them fend off starvation.

Another technique is using human feces and urine. To make this safe, they are burned in a container and their ASHES are added to ash from the fire to prevent the spread of disease. This should also be done with Pig, Chicken, and any other Poultry's wastes. Cow, Horse, Rabbit, or Goat waste can be used as-is. These should all be turned into a slurry to stretch the amount of soil that can be fertilized.

Indeed, URINE (and to a lesser extent feces) is a powerful resource. You can use it to fertilize fields, make explosives or smokeless propellants, and even drugs. It would be a VALUABLE RESOURCE that everyone was expected to provide in a place like Krakow. Putting feces into a sealed plastic container known as a "digestor" will allow you to harvest METHANE gas for cooking or welding. Put in some feces, add a small packet of the microbes found in the product known as RID (used to clean septic tanks and found almost everywhere in the US) and just add water. I'm told you can get a liter of Methane from a liter of treated Digester water. This also has NO IMPACT on your ability to use the feces to fertilize fields later.

3) FURROW PLOWING, DISKING, AND PLANTING: Once the field is "seasoned," you can plow the furrows for planting. We used a 3-Furrow Plow but there are a variety of these plows available. IF you are planting a crop that needs looser soil like lettuce, you will also be using a Disc Plow to break up the soil into a finer grain like sand. Heartier plants like Potatoes or Corn do NOT need the soil to be that fine (which is good because topsoil erosion occurs more frequently in disced soil). This is also the stage where you will Contour Plow so wind won't blow away your topsoil. How you plant will depend on WHAT you plant, as different crops need different spacing (hence my Yields Chart). Once the fields are sown though, you can take a breather before the next step (maintenance of the crops) begins.

That's just a quick overview of how to prep a field for farming.

[Milano]

@ Enfield

After a cursory look throughout the web and browsing through Vesper's PDF, I really cannot give you much help. I get around 17 inches of rain between November and April, on an average year. With that I run a cow on about 25 acres. That is without feeding, which is required if the rain is late the following November. I wish I could give you more but that's about all I've got for you. If the PCs do want to go after a cattle ranch, remember that the fences, corrals, water, etc is a large undertaking. A few cows and a bull is more reasonable.

[Enfield]

Portions of a 2011 census of crops and farm animals for Thompson-Okanagan:
Grain 6,500 hectares
Corn for silage 3,344 ha
Hay and pasture 437,000 ha
Alfalfa 42,418 ha
Hay 61,162 ha
Potatoes 170 ha
Fruits, berries and nuts 9,598 ha
Field grown vegetables 887 ha

Hens and chickens 1,808,625
Cattle and calves 171,000
Pigs 1,135
Sheep 13,603
Horses and ponies 11,672
Rabbits 987
Goats 3,534

(all from this PDF (https://www.bcaitc.ca/sites/default/files/Grow%20BC/Regions/GrowBC_2014_Thompson%20Okanagan%20Region.pdf))

I really appreciate your searching for this. While I might have found it myself this saves a lot of time.

[Enfield]

Keep in mind that if you are not gardening (I highly espouse the Ruth Stout method), that there are three important steps to growing food by the acre (or hectare if you prefer). For visualization, remember that an Acre is the size of a FOOTBALL FIELD (around 100m X 50m wide) and a Hectare is 2.47 times the acre in size (10,000 total meters). This is a big space. The three steps to prepping a field are...

1) INITIAL MULCHING AND NUTRIENT ADD: This is normally done in the fall after the harvest. If you have ever seen a cornfield or wheat field that was harvested, you will see stubs of stalks that are bent over and left to rot. This is INTENTIONAL. Those stalks are putting nutrients back into the soil. This is often leavened with grass cuttings and dead leaves. It is best to let these rot on top of the field ALL WINTER. IF you "breaking in" a new field, you should let this debris molder on top of the field for at least a week. The wetter the better as it promotes rot.

2) EARLY SPRING TURNING: Your field has moldered all winter and you have a good debris cover going. Now it's time to turn over those nutrients that will feed your crops long-term. A MouldBoard Plow or Chisel Plow will cut deep ruts and roll that mulch down into the ground where your crops will feed on it all summer long. Once the field is turned, in comes the "boost nutrients" to be laid on the field for up to a week before the initial planting. These nutrients include Nitrogen and the rapid growth food for your crops. In my neck of the woods that would be cow manure turned into a liquid mixture resembling a thick soup. This goes on top and is allowed to soak in. It's what gives you that "Fresh country air" aroma every spring. After a week, this too gets turned over to ensure the soil is now fully capable of being Furrow Plowed.

Please note that there are several alternatives to using modern fertilizers and these methods are STILL being used today. Some common methods to "season" a field including using a "fish slurry" made up of parts of any fish you ate that were left. These parts (including bones) are ground into a "meal" and added to the ashes from a fire to produce a Potassium-rich compound for poor soils. This is then applied as a "slurry" just like manure is. This is the technique the American Indians showed the Colonists at Plymouth to help them fend off starvation.

Another technique is using human feces and urine. To make this safe, they are burned in a container and their ASHES are added to ash from the fire to prevent the spread of disease. This should also be done with Pig, Chicken, and any other Poultry's wastes. Cow, Horse, Rabbit, or Goat waste can be used as-is. These should all be turned into a slurry to stretch the amount of soil that can be fertilized.

Indeed, URINE (and to a lesser extent feces) is a powerful resource. You can use it to fertilize fields, make explosives or smokeless propellants, and even drugs. It would be a VALUABLE RESOURCE that everyone was expected to provide in a place like Krakow. Putting feces into a sealed plastic container known as a "digestor" will allow you to harvest METHANE gas for cooking or welding. Put in some feces, add a small packet of the microbes found in the product known as RID (used to clean septic tanks and found almost everywhere in the US) and just add water. I'm told you can get a liter of Methane from a liter of treated Digester water. This also has NO IMPACT on your ability to use the feces to fertilize fields later.

3) FURROW PLOWING, DISKING, AND PLANTING: Once the field is "seasoned," you can plow the furrows for planting. We used a 3-Furrow Plow but there are a variety of these plows available. IF you are planting a crop that needs looser soil like lettuce, you will also be using a Disc Plow to break up the soil into a finer grain like sand. Heartier plants like Potatoes or Corn do NOT need the soil to be that fine (which is good because topsoil erosion occurs more frequently in disced soil). This is also the stage where you will Contour Plow so wind won't blow away your topsoil. How you plant will depend on WHAT you plant, as different crops need different spacing (hence my Yields Chart). Once the fields are sown though, you can take a breather before the next step (maintenance of the crops) begins.

That's just a quick overview of how to prep a field for farming.

much appreciated. I think being able to explain this will lend a lot of authenticity to the messages from Cascadia as well as emphasizing the need for certain technology to make the efforts easier.

[Enfield]

@ Enfield

After a cursory look throughout the web and browsing through Vesper's PDF, I really cannot give you much help. I get around 17 inches of rain between November and April, on an average year. With that I run a cow on about 25 acres. That is without feeding, which is required if the rain is late the following November. I wish I could give you more but that's about all I've got for you. If the PCs do want to go after a cattle ranch, remember that the fences, corrals, water, etc is a large undertaking. A few cows and a bull is more reasonable.

Sorry, is that 25 or 2.5? And is that about 2.5 (or 25) per cow? If there is a lack of rain (I Understand that the Okanagan Valley is pretty dry) will there not be enough grass regrowth?

[Milano]

That is 25 acres per cow and calf. You seem interested so I'll go into some details.

Our average rainfall is 17". So, last year we had 13" of rain and I had 120 Cows/pairs... this year I've gotten 8". I own and lease around 3,200 acres. Last year I had the stocking rate of 27 ac/cow.. in a week or two I'll be hope to be able to keep 80 Cows, thus 40 ac/cow. But the numbers do not reflect the timing and number of storms to get the rain fall.

Without going crazy on details for a game, that's the jist of it. Remember that acreage is on a two-dimensional plane. I live in mountains, so acreage is relative. There is also the measure of AUMs. Or Animal Unit Months. It's way more precise, but it's limiting in that the samples must be taken regularly to come up with an average.

There is science to agriculture but there is more intuition and wisdom that goes into it. (Remember that Wisdom is what we call our mistakes.)

[Enfield]

That is 25 acres per cow and calf. You seem interested so I'll go into some details.

Our average rainfall is 17". So, last year we had 13" of rain and I had 120 Cows/pairs... this year I've gotten 8". I own and lease around 3,200 acres. Last year I had the stocking rate of 27 ac/cow.. in a week or two I'll be hope to be able to keep 80 Cows, thus 40 ac/cow. But the numbers do not reflect the timing and number of storms to get the rain fall.

Without going crazy on details for a game, that's the jist of it. Remember that acreage is on a two-dimensional plane. I live in mountains, so acreage is relative. There is also the measure of AUMs. Or Animal Unit Months. It's way more precise, but it's limiting in that the samples must be taken regularly to come up with an average.

There is science to agriculture but there is more intuition and wisdom that goes into it. (Remember that Wisdom is what we call our mistakes.)

Given that this is Twilight 2000 though, I imagine that not only would you have the usual problems of watching out for predators, accidents, bad weather, etc, but also the problem of a lack of law enforcement and maintenance of infrastructure and information systems. How many people do you think you would need to keep that amount of range safe? How many daily hours of work is that?

[swaghauler]

Given that this is Twilight 2000 though, I imagine that not only would you have the usual problems of watching out for predators, accidents, bad weather, etc, but also the problem of a lack of law enforcement and maintenance of infrastructure and information systems. How many people do you think you would need to keep that amount of range safe? How many daily hours of work is that?

3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

[Enfield]

3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

Do you recommend having cattle dogs?

[Legbreaker]

3200 acres is only 5 miles of terrain. You can ride that [on horseback] in a couple of hours.

You can, but you can't be everywhere at once either. Somebody up to no good only has to wait in concealment until you pass by on your daily patrol before coming out and doing whatever they're intending to do.

Then there's this small detail in the game rules (2.2, I imagine the other versions are the same):
Feeding: All draft animals need to graze for two four-hour periods per day. Horses and mules also require grain if they do any work that day (including being ridden). The amount of grain required is given on the Food Consumption Table on page 273. If they do no work, they need not be fed grain, but must spend all day grazing to make up for it.
Realistic or not, that will seriously restrict mobility unless you've got remounts available or vast amounts of grain to feed your horse.
Note this rule includes animals used for plowing, hauling carts and wagons, harvesting, etc

[Legbreaker]

Do you recommend having cattle dogs?

Cattle and sheep dogs can be invaluable, PROVIDED they're properly trained and the handler knows what they're doing.

[Enfield]

You can, but you can't be everywhere at once either. Somebody up to no good only has to wait in concealment until you pass by on your daily patrol before coming out and doing whatever they're intending to do.

Then there's this small detail in the game rules (2.2, I imagine the other versions are the same):

Realistic or not, that will seriously restrict mobility unless you've got remounts available or vast amounts of grain to feed your horse.
Note this rule includes animals used for plowing, hauling carts and wagons, harvesting, etc

Like I was saying, range riding as currently done seems to me (though I am no ranch hand) to be more appropriate to say organized territories. I think that in most other cases except maybe cantonments that you probably at the very least need a watchtower or two in addition to regular patrols.

[swaghauler]

Do you recommend having cattle dogs?

Yes. Dogs are useful for a variety of things like TRACKING, SENTRY DUTY, ATTACK, BOMB DETECTION, RESCUE WORK, and even as a food source. Dogs can be used to pull a plow. Native Americans used them to pull/drag litters for the sick, wounded, or cargo and Eskimos used them for transportation and hunting bears. This is why you always see dogs on Special Forces missions today.

[swaghauler]

You can, but you can't be everywhere at once either. Somebody up to no good only has to wait in concealment until you pass by on your daily patrol before coming out and doing whatever they're intending to do.

Then there's this small detail in the game rules (2.2, I imagine the other versions are the same):

Realistic or not, that will seriously restrict mobility unless you've got remounts available or vast amounts of grain to feed your horse.
Note this rule includes animals used for plowing, hauling carts and wagons, harvesting, etc

You are misperceiving LINEAR DISTANCE with SQUARE AREA. Milano's ranch might encompass 8km but it is most likely 8 SQUARE KM. This means that the farthest distance from his ranch house to the fence might be 2 or 3 km at most. In open terrain, you can often see this far with just a pair of binoculars. This is why I told everyone in my post above to imagine an Acre as a football field. This gives one a good idea of the size of a given patch of terrain.

The food chart in Twilight2000 is WAY OFF. The amount of grain it recommends for a horse would be for a Percheron or Belgium DRAFT HORSE doing heavy manual labor. A Quarter Horse being ridden two periods a day might require 4kg of grain (if ridden HARD) and 4kg of hay. It may need less IF it were allowed to graze before and after riding.

For those wanting a more accurate chart than Twilight2000's, just GOOGLE "Horse feeding requirements" and a number of charts that cross-reference a horse's weight and activity level will give you accurate, real-world amounts of grain and hay based on activity v. size.

[swaghauler]

I will begin posting my homebrew rules this week. Done with all the Court stuff, now I just have to get Dad's stuff sold or distributed [to various family members].

[Legbreaker]

You are misperceiving LINEAR DISTANCE with SQUARE AREA.

No, I'm not actually.
Yes it might be possible to see that far, but that assumes relatively flat and open terrain. I grew up on 200 acres - a fairly small block really, but there was no way you could see from one end to the other because of the ridgelines, forested areas, etc. It was often impossible to even hear gunfire from some points.
Additionally, the idea is to meet any threats well away from your boundaries if at all possible. You'd want to extend your patrols several miles in all directions.
If you're dealing with bandits within your boundary, you've got major problems.

Now, if your land is on nice flat ground with clear sight lines for miles, then a simple watchtower might well suffice. Problem with that is sight lines are two directional.

In the initial stages while the characters are learning the how of farming, as I mentioned earlier, it's far better they focus on small area subsistence farming with an emphasis on concealment and protection. As their skills and resources improve (scavenged machinery, seed stock, additional personnel, etc) they can expand their cultivated area, always however with security as a background thought - even several years post nuke there's still a lot of starving people willing and able to do nasty things to get a meal.

[Vespers War]

Somewhat tangential, but page 273 is almost certainly excessive for animal food consumption. It calls for 15 kg of grain for a horse or 10 kg for a mule plus 8 hours of grazing.

For comparison, here's what the British Army provided animals "in camp" (i.e. at the front lines) during World War I. When "in stables" the diet was reduced by 2 pounds of grain per day (oats for the horses and maize for the mules). Chaff was a 50/50 mix of hay and straw.

Heavy Draft Horse: 13 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Officer's Horse or Riding Horse taller than 15.1 1/2 hands: 12 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Horse or Riding Horse shorter than 15.1 1/2 hands: 11 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Light Draft Horse: 9 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Heavy Draft Mule: 14 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Light Draft Mule: 12 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Mule: 7 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff

The amount of grain required on page 273 is equal to the total amount of feed for a Heavy Draft Horse or Light Draft Mule. A relatively simple suggested house rule is to require either the amount of grain listed with no grazing or half the amount listed with 8 hours of grazing.

[Legbreaker]

I think you can reconcile the game amounts with reality by assuming the post nuke "grain" isn't as high a quality was pre nuke. Contains a lot more chaff than actual grain, the crops themselves are effected by radiation, limited rainfall and sunshine, etc.
Yes, it's a bit of a generalised handwaving, but...

[Enfield]

No, I'm not actually.
Yes it might be possible to see that far, but that assumes relatively flat and open terrain. I grew up on 200 acres - a fairly small block really, but there was no way you could see from one end to the other because of the ridgelines, forested areas, etc. It was often impossible to even hear gunfire from some points.
Additionally, the idea is to meet any threats well away from your boundaries if at all possible. You'd want to extend your patrols several miles in all directions.
If you're dealing with bandits within your boundary, you've got major problems.

Now, if your land is on nice flat ground with clear sight lines for miles, then a simple watchtower might well suffice. Problem with that is sight lines are two directional.

In the initial stages while the characters are learning the how of farming, as I mentioned earlier, it's far better they focus on small area subsistence farming with an emphasis on concealment and protection. As their skills and resources improve (scavenged machinery, seed stock, additional personnel, etc) they can expand their cultivated area, always however with security as a background thought - even several years post nuke there's still a lot of starving people willing and able to do nasty things to get a meal.


One of the issues with the location is that it is lying in the vicinity of two roads. One is a two lane nearby, one is a major highway 4 km away. While the area is insular and communities are small and isolated due to the devastation, even if marauders, hungry refugees and others might just be passing through, the farming could be a tempting target for marauders, scavengers and refugees.

[Enfield]

Somewhat tangential, but page 273 is almost certainly excessive for animal food consumption. It calls for 15 kg of grain for a horse or 10 kg for a mule plus 8 hours of grazing.

For comparison, here's what the British Army provided animals "in camp" (i.e. at the front lines) during World War I. When "in stables" the diet was reduced by 2 pounds of grain per day (oats for the horses and maize for the mules). Chaff was a 50/50 mix of hay and straw.

Heavy Draft Horse: 13 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Officer's Horse or Riding Horse taller than 15.1 1/2 hands: 12 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Horse or Riding Horse shorter than 15.1 1/2 hands: 11 pounds oats, 10 pounds chaff
Light Draft Horse: 9 pounds oats, 4 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Heavy Draft Mule: 14 pounds maize, 16 pounds chaff
Light Draft Mule: 12 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff
Pack Mule: 7 pounds maize, 10 pounds chaff

The amount of grain required on page 273 is equal to the total amount of feed for a Heavy Draft Horse or Light Draft Mule. A relatively simple suggested house rule is to require either the amount of grain listed with no grazing or half the amount listed with 8 hours of grazing.

That's great. It adds up with an older book I read that was published in the 1930s called Animal Management.

The party had found a stray horse, clearly domesticated but on its own and seeking company/help. They had no idea what to do with it and I didn't tell them, so they ended up leaving it on its own and it got killed by predators. Hopefully they learned their lesson.

[pmulcahy11b]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world? Would they even?

[Enfield]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world? Would they even?

Most of those who need regular access to pharmacies and other infrastructure supported medical support facilities would either be in really rough shape or dead.

Even in modern industrial nations like Kenya or Zambia, or in some of the former Soviet republics, they lack the ability to accomodate mental illness or some disabilities like visual impairment. People underestimate how much medical advances and prosperity make such help available.

So how much of a stockpile would the average state in the Union have? And how good would their distribution be?

But that's a good point, a great adventure hook.

Let's say you have a character with a chronic illness, like Diabetes 1, or with a mental illness requiring a medical regimen. But the person is a loved one, part of the group, or even an expert in a field that has become rare where their expertise is needed. The characters, who would perhaps normally avoid cities, are forced to go to one.

I may even do that to force the group to go to the New American enclave and go to Lewiston or some such place, forced to treat and deal with them or sneak in and sneak out...

[swaghauler]

You know, IRL I know nothing about farming or taking care of animals other than dogs or cats. I'd need scads of teachers in T2K to become useful on a farm.

Of course, once my meds ran out, I be in a continual severe psychosis, and probably of no use to anyone, including myself. Probably spend a lot of time breaking into pharmacies looking for Invega, Ativan, and Modafinel.

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world? Would they even?

One area where I'm STILL kind of working on for the SCAVENGING RULES IS the creation of meds and chemicals. We have people with Chemistry and Biology skills in the game and chemicals can be acquired or even created, so why can't people with prior careers as Chemists, Doctors, and RNs MAKE medicine? We humans have been doing that since the Dark Ages.

There IS a Pharmacy equivalent to the PHYSICIAN'S DESK REFERENCE for Pharmacists. It lists various drugs, their components, and potential interactions with other drugs. This would be like a "bible" for a fledgling "compounding lab." Once you know what's in a given drug, you should be able to either approximate it or replicate it.

My idea for this follows the same pattern that I use for salvaging industrial machines and electronics...

1) Set a Difficulty Level starting at EASY and moving up to IMPOSSIBLE based on the complexity of the item.
2) Determine the number and type of Tools and Resources [units] needed to perform the task. For example, a new radio might require 6 small repair parts units, 3 electronics parts units, and a battery. It would also require an Electronics toolkit.
3) Determine the Skill OR Skills required to make the item in question. ie. Electronics skill for the radio above.

This is the standard procedure I use for most of my Salvage rules.

[swaghauler]

One thing I do see in this Forum that I still don't quite understand is this idea that you HAVE to find a thing in order to have it because NOTHING is being made now. Maybe it's because I grew up on a farm. If we needed something and didn't have it, we just either fabricated it or "repurposed" something else to meet our needs. In my mind, I can see all kinds of people in Twilight2000 doing just that.

Need a certain type of tool? Modify another tool or just make what you need using welders and a grinder.

Need a hand lifting something? enlist a horse or cow to give you what you need, or at the very least, rig a block and tackle.

Need to make a certain chemical? Just get yourself a college chemistry book with the formula in it and try NOT to burn your eyebrows off (and yes, I'm guilty... and no I'm not going to talk about it).

This is what I'd do in the real world and this is what I encourage my PC to do in my games.

[Legbreaker]

...but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world? Would they even?

That's actually a damn fine question and one that came up recently in Lurken's Discord game. An NPC was determined to have a brain injury resulting in a loss of Intelligence (down to 1).
Through long term use of appropriate skills (a mix of Medicine: Diagnosis, Interrogation and Persuasion for the most part), and possibly medication (Chemistry with a touch of Biology) a few points might, in time be regained.
Of course while in the middle of Poland in 2000 that's rather unlikely to happen, but who knows?

For others with less "recoverable" illnesses once the medication runs out with little chance to acquire more, it might be more humane to give them a final rest with a lead pill. Not a nice thing to have to contemplate, but when you've exhausted all other options.... :(

[StainlessSteelCynic]

One thing I do see in this Forum that I still don't quite understand is this idea that you HAVE to find a thing in order to have it because NOTHING is being made now. Maybe it's because I grew up on a farm. If we needed something and didn't have it, we just either fabricated it or "repurposed" something else to meet our needs. In my mind, I can see all kinds of people in Twilight2000 doing just that.

Need a certain type of tool? Modify another tool or just make what you need using welders and a grinder.

Need a hand lifting something? enlist a horse or cow to give you what you need, or at the very least, rig a block and tackle.

Need to make a certain chemical? Just get yourself a college chemistry book with the formula in it and try NOT to burn your eyebrows off (and yes, I'm guilty... and no I'm not going to talk about it).

This is what I'd do in the real world and this is what I encourage my PC to do in my games.
Hey wasn't that the kind of information you would find in the Farmer's Almanac and books like that?

[Tegyrius]

Sorry to threadjack, but how would the mentally ill survive in a T2K world? Would they even?

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers?

Back to the thread topic, these issues present an interesting complication for any group attempting to align itself with the Cascadians. The Cascadians are working toward the survival of civilization, not necessarily that of any given individual. It's up to each referee to determine how far they take it in their campaign, but I'll point to one of the Cascadian movement's principles:

Societal triage. Current and imminent resource shortages mean the Cascadians and the other American successor governments can't save everyone, so they shouldn't waste their limited resources trying to do that. There's a limited amount of room in the Cascadian lifeboat. Those who won't align with the movement's tenets and the needs of the day will be encouraged to go elsewhere – if necessary, at gunpoint. This doesn't mean people who can't work are exiled, though, so long as they can contribute something (or they've earned charity through service to the movement). A mind is just as valuable as a pair of hands. Whether this should extend to some measure of eugenics in a post-nuclear gene pool is a hotly-debated point in Cascadian communities.

- C.

[CDAT]

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers?

...

- C.

A book that this issue was a central part of is "one second after" by William R. Forstchen. Main characters daughter is a diabetic, and town doctor talked a bit about some of the antipsychotic medications, or the withdraws from them.

[Enfield]

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers?

Back to the thread topic, these issues present an interesting complication for any group attempting to align itself with the Cascadians. The Cascadians are working toward the survival of civilization, not necessarily that of any given individual. It's up to each referee to determine how far they take it in their campaign, but I'll point to one of the Cascadian movement's principles:



- C.

According to a report I read, it is not automatic that a pacemaker will be destroyed by EMP. Interestingly, the human body will act as a kind of Faraday Cage and shield the device.Unless the person is pretty close to the blast radius, people with pacemakers should be fine.

[pmulcahy11b]

For others with less "recoverable" illnesses once the medication runs out with little chance to acquire more, it might be more humane to give them a final rest with a lead pill. Not a nice thing to have to contemplate, but when you've exhausted all other options.... :(

Hay, that's me! You f**k!:D

That sort of makes me wonder...what if I asked Dr Pola (my doctor; he's young enough he may have RPGd at some point) what it would take to mix up a reliable batch of my medicine, or if there's an herbal substitute. Unfortunately, my next regular appointment with him is not until 7 June, and I don't want to call for a special appointment just to ask him RPG questions! He is, though, an Iraq Vet, and might have put some thought into this sort of thing, maybe for the Iraqi people who were probably short of this type of medication.

[Enfield]

The same question applies to a host of other medical issues that require pharmaceutical maintenance or other regular care. Enfield mentioned diabetes, which is the classic example from Lucifer's Hammer. Among other factors, I would expect the HIV/AIDS epidemic to be a source of paranoia, discrimination, and other social complications atop its medical implications.

For that matter, anyone dependent on electrically-powered medical equipment probably died shortly after the first wave of nuclear strikes. Anyone know the effects of EMP on pacemakers?

Back to the thread topic, these issues present an interesting complication for any group attempting to align itself with the Cascadians. The Cascadians are working toward the survival of civilization, not necessarily that of any given individual. It's up to each referee to determine how far they take it in their campaign, but I'll point to one of the Cascadian movement's principles:



- C.

It is an interesting question. One of the purposes of my campaign is to have a community build around the initial group of survivors led by the PCs. The leadership core (based around the PCs) have expressly stated that they want to form a larger community around the farm, so as they contact others they will have that opportunity, and inevitably some people will have chronic illnesses and conditions. It will be interesting to see how they figure out the ethics of that.

[.45cultist]

I'm going to go over all of this for my pig/ geese farm plan I mentioned in another thread. I'd also like to go through several threads for a Homestead Home front book. It can be GDW/FFE specific or a generic guide, or better yet, both. Notes on how to establish a colony or a cantonment or just keeping a small town alive.

[Tegyrius]

I'm going to go over all of this for my pig/ geese farm plan I mentioned in another thread. I'd also like to go through several threads for a Homestead Home front book. It can be GDW/FFE specific or a generic guide, or better yet, both. Notes on how to establish a colony or a cantonment or just keeping a small town alive.

I already designed a cover for you (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6148). ;)

Seriously, though, I'd be interested in reading that. I can envision a couple of different ways you could present the material.

- C.

[Targan]

A potential source for mining some of the concepts in terms of modelling for gaming systems, HarnMaster has a supplement called HarnManor which goes into great detail on how to generate medieval agricultural settlements. Such things as how many people are needed for how much acreage, crop and farmed animal yields, other trades and specialties typically found in such settlements, etc.

[.45cultist]

A potential source for mining some of the concepts in terms of modelling for gaming systems, HarnMaster has a supplement called HarnManor which goes into great detail on how to generate medieval agricultural settlements. Such things as how many people are needed for how much acreage, crop and farmed animal yields, other trades and specialties typically found in such settlements, etc.

Cool! This can be done. I can check the TNE World Tamer's Handbook for technology improvements.

[.45cultist]

I already designed a cover for you (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6148). ;)

Seriously, though, I'd be interested in reading that. I can envision a couple of different ways you could present the material.

- C.

That's great! Seriously, your module "Pacific Northwest" is first on the reading list.
Pacific Northwest's civilian career "Survivalist" can be converted to "Homesteader" by skill choice since the careers have some similarities. also the equipment, particularly chainsaws, long underwear, and the ATVs and UATVs. The weather rules for off season.

Paul Mulcahy's Site for more gear.

The food preservation and water purification threads on this site.

Traveller TNE's "World Tamer's Handbook" has ag and industry rules.

Also T2013 had a building system in man hours and some "civvie stuff".

[.45cultist]

World Tamers has complex rules cause of multiple world types. T2013 has farm rules and amounts in hectacres as well as equipment modifiers, I'll get the Harn book next pay day. I might treat pigs as manual laborers with two to three periods of hard labor, depending on how much daylight. I might try to stat an old tractor or two like the Ford Jubilee and some old John Deere trikes and the like.

[.45cultist]

Here is the beginning of my homebrew:4637

[Vespers War]

Speaking of World Tamer's, one thing in it that would have been very useful in the T2K rules is its Roads sidebar, which covers what's available at each tech level and how they deteriorate. The tech levels aren't useful, but here are the roads that would be available in the Twilight War era:

Trails: simple unimproved routes where brush has been cleared by the constant passage of people, vehicles, or animals. Vehicles travel at off-road speed +1.25 kph (+5 to Tr Move). Reduce to normal speed in rain due to mud.

Improved Trails: widened trails graded by animal-powered scrapers. Travel is at off-road speed +2.5 kph (+10 to Tr Move), but reduced to normal in rain.

Crowned Roads: cambered so water will run off and often topped with stone or gravel. +3.75 kph (+15 to Tr Move) and unaffected by rain. Use by heavy (10 tonnes or greater) wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 1d20 days and use by tracked vehicles of any weight will destroy them in 2 hours, reducing the road to an Improved Trail.

Macadam Roads: crowned roads with an impervious surface of stone. +5 kph (+20 to Tr Move), unaffected by rain. Heavy wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 1d10 weeks and tracked vehicles in 6 hours, reducing to Improved Trail.

Asphalt Roads: crowned and drained and topped with a bitumen-gravel mix. Travel at road speed regardless of weather. Heavy wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 10+1d10 months and tracked vehicles in 12 hours, once again reducing to Improved Trail.

Concrete Roads: more durable, surfaced with a thermally converted mix of sand, gravel, and limestone. Unaffected by wheeled vehicles, destroyed by 18 hours of tracked vehicle use, reduced to Improved Trail.

The deterioration of roads over time during the Twilight War would (in my opinion) reinforce to players how the systems that tie the world together are breaking down, as transportation becomes more difficult.

[swaghauler]

World Tamers has complex rules cause of multiple world types. T2013 has farm rules and amounts in hectacres as well as equipment modifiers, I'll get the Harn book next pay day. I might treat pigs as manual laborers with two to three periods of hard labor, depending on how much daylight. I might try to stat an old tractor or two like the Ford Jubilee and some old John Deere trikes and the like.

Here are some videos from my research you might find interesting. For the record, I use the HOSS double-wheeled system and find it superior to all other hand-powered garden tools (I have power tools too). Keep in mind that these are modern machines not something from an antique store either.

https://youtu.be/vuiqNFgDyCg

Here's a video of people going old school with equipment you can buy right now.

https://youtu.be/O82ZecB0UPk

Then there are people like me and my friends who would totally do this! Please note, this is a vintage horse plow being towed in this video.

https://youtu.be/tnNSFzxgZys

Enjoy!

Swag.

[swaghauler]

Speaking of World Tamer's, one thing in it that would have been very useful in the T2K rules is its Roads sidebar, which covers what's available at each tech level and how they deteriorate. The tech levels aren't useful, but here are the roads that would be available in the Twilight War era:

Trails: simple unimproved routes where brush has been cleared by the constant passage of people, vehicles, or animals. Vehicles travel at off-road speed +1.25 kph (+5 to Tr Move). Reduce to normal speed in rain due to mud.

Improved Trails: widened trails graded by animal-powered scrapers. Travel is at off-road speed +2.5 kph (+10 to Tr Move), but reduced to normal in rain.

Crowned Roads: cambered so water will run off and often topped with stone or gravel. +3.75 kph (+15 to Tr Move) and unaffected by rain. Use by heavy (10 tonnes or greater) wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 1d20 days and use by tracked vehicles of any weight will destroy them in 2 hours, reducing the road to an Improved Trail.

Macadam Roads: crowned roads with an impervious surface of stone. +5 kph (+20 to Tr Move), unaffected by rain. Heavy wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 1d10 weeks and tracked vehicles in 6 hours, reducing to Improved Trail.

Asphalt Roads: crowned and drained and topped with a bitumen-gravel mix. Travel at road speed regardless of weather. Heavy wheeled vehicles will destroy them in 10+1d10 months and tracked vehicles in 12 hours, once again reducing to Improved Trail.

Concrete Roads: more durable, surfaced with a thermally converted mix of sand, gravel, and limestone. Unaffected by wheeled vehicles, destroyed by 18 hours of tracked vehicle use, reduced to Improved Trail.

The deterioration of roads over time during the Twilight War would (in my opinion) reinforce to players how the systems that tie the world together are breaking down, as transportation becomes more difficult.

I would say that you should institute some sort of "deterioration check" to see if the roads degrade or not. Around my house, we have many dirt roads with heavily compacted bases (due to the heavy farm machinery driven on them) that only need to be graded once a year. They are just that packed down. There are also highways out there which are overbuilt (the Autobahn comes to mind immediately) that will fair better than your typical US highway.

[.45cultist]

I would say that you should institute some sort of "deterioration check" to see if the roads degrade or not. Around my house, we have many dirt roads with heavily compacted bases (due to the heavy farm machinery driven on them) that only need to be graded once a year. They are just that packed down. There are also highways out there which are overbuilt (the Autobahn comes to mind immediately) that will fair better than your typical US highway.

The US used to put concrete then asphalt down, then decided double asphalt was cheaper, so now high ways don't last as long.

[.45cultist]

Here are some videos from my research you might find interesting. For the record, I use the HOSS double-wheeled system and find it superior to all other hand-powered garden tools (I have power tools too). Keep in mind that these are modern machines not something from an antique store either.

https://youtu.be/vuiqNFgDyCg

Here's a video of people going old school with equipment you can buy right now.

https://youtu.be/O82ZecB0UPk

Then there are people like me and my friends who would totally do this! Please note, this is a vintage horse plow being towed in this video.

https://youtu.be/tnNSFzxgZys

Enjoy!

Swag.

Thanks!

[swaghauler]

Thanks!
You're welcome. Judging from his accent, the guy in the 3rd video is from the Ridge or Central PA. Yep... Olefin, Wallshadow, and I have to claim him... look at the truck's license plate.
PA representn' rednecks everywhere!

[shahzop]

Corn isn't very economical for the space required, and neither are most other grains. techzpod mobdro - edited these were links.


More spammers. Keep an eye out - Kato

[pmulcahy11b]

I would say that you should institute some sort of "deterioration check" to see if the roads degrade or not. Around my house, we have many dirt roads with heavily compacted bases (due to the heavy farm machinery driven on them) that only need to be graded once a year. They are just that packed down. There are also highways out there which are overbuilt (the Autobahn comes to mind immediately) that will fair better than your typical US highway.

So once again, it's all about the Benjamins...

[.45cultist]

I already designed a cover for you (https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=6148). ;)

Seriously, though, I'd be interested in reading that. I can envision a couple of different ways you could present the material.

- C.

I'm going through and putting together a "garden tool kit", some stuff overlaps "Excavation Tools", but not all and as an example, garden hoes and concrete hoes are slightly different but round point shovels and spades are the same.
The gardening is going to be on a smaller scale than the ones discussed in T2013 too. I'm also making slight changes and putting the homestead in Dark Conspiracy, I run the country side like a T2K in certain parts. I've been working at a snail's pace but have the notes gathered together, now to try and not make anyones head hurt reading the thing.

[Bulldog1972]

I'm going through and putting together a "garden tool kit", some stuff overlaps "Excavation Tools"

Posting that here? Or doing a module at DriveThru or somewhere similar?

[Targan]

The dead make good fertilizer.

[.45cultist]

I'm going through and putting together a "garden tool kit", some stuff overlaps "Excavation Tools"

Posting that here? Or doing a module at DriveThru or somewhere similar?

Here, My skills at composition are poor anyway.

[Starkiller]

In the 70s and 80s everyone I knew in rural Tennessee had these books. All you need to survive the end of the world. There are also some great herbalist survival books you can get as well to help aid in a more medical sense than survival sense. I still have my dads copies of Foxfires. The link is to an ebay listing for the set.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/203971885559?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=203971885559&targetid=1263094004306&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=9013670&poi=&campaignid=14859008593&mkgroupid=130497710760&rlsatarget=pla-1263094004306&abcId=9300678&merchantid=114149658&gclid=CjwKCAjwv-GUBhAzEiwASUMm4vATeSgDOBNyolL7eywFK3igfJU4VlhR5VLT xNQKEYGfb0phirtIahoCrm8QAvD_BwE

[swaghauler]

Here are some very Twilight2000 DYI gardening tools.

https://youtu.be/woHNgHkbWzA

https://youtu.be/dNTDJq3Cr_A

https://youtu.be/d6p8J5H01U4


Swag

[swaghauler]

Here's how to make Potassium Nitrate and other associated chemicals from URINE!

https://youtu.be/6w2cwJmVNbU