Return to the bad old days?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Just been on the news here, there has been a drive by shooting on an army base not far from Belfast. Two confirmed dead so far plus four - six wounded. The base is home to an Engineer regiment. I truly thought we were past this sort of thing here, but the threat level has been at a high level for the last couple of weeks. My thoughts and prayers are with the wounded and the families of the deceased.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Links to the news about the shootings so far;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930837.stm

http://www3.u.tv/news/LocalNews/index.asp?id=94496&sel2=1&local=1

[kcdusk]

A little bit removed, but along the same lines. There was the attack against the Sri Lankan cricket team in Pakistan.

A Merc mission in the making maybe?

[O'Borg]

Just saw this on the BBC website too :(

My memory is a bit hazy but ISTR what really kicked the peace process into line all those years ago now was the IRA calling a ceasefire for a year and the locals in NI thinking "Hey, this not getting shot at or blown up business isn't so bad."

Of course Sinn Feinn are spouting the usual lines about "Its the BRITISH ARMY's fault for being there.." :rolleyes:

[jester]

A question, could it have been a drug deal or some other criminal act gone bad, or something the victims or the victims mistaken for and their colegueas in crime wanted some payback?

[Mohoender]

I just heard that this morning. The time being and the world situation may result in the wolves coming out of the wood.

Our president and several government members here (about ten) have received a bullet and a death warrant.

[kato13]

It is indeed a strange situation when I am hoping that it is either drug dealers or Islamic terrorists who happen to be armed with high powered weapons. Let us all hope whatever it is, that it is only a small scale action and not the beginning of something bigger.

[TiggerCCW UK]

A question, could it have been a drug deal or some other criminal act gone bad, or something the victims or the victims mistaken for and their colegueas in crime wanted some payback?

Best guess at the minute is dissident republicans - most likely Continuity IRA or Real IRA. Current rumour is that the dead and wounded were part of the security on duty and that they were expecting a pizza delivery. The terrs turned up in a pizza van and targeted those that came out of the barracks. Hopefully this is an isolated incident, but the dissidents did target the police last month with a 300lb IED in Castlewellan. They left the bomb near a primary school and phoned in a warning so vague that it took a couple of days searching to find it. There have been a number of shooting incidents involving the police as well, including one off duty policeman being murdered last year after dropping his children to school.

I've said it here before that I truly believed that the province had started to grow up and move away from this sort of shit. This is a great country and far and away the vast majority of the population want to live in peace. Its just a shame that the actions of a very small minority of scum on both sides could drag us all back to the bollocks of the past.

[Mohoender]

I have the feeling that the probability of them being die-hard IRA (or IRA want-be) fueled by general insatisfaction has a good chance to come up as being the truth. I agree with you all that we should hope that it doesn't go any further. As long as this remain isolated and as long as the officials on all side don't get paranoy, there is a good chance that this will be the case.

Nevertheless, If I remain optimistic, I'm also convinced that everything remain possible nowadays. I'm pretty sure nobody truly understand the current situation, I would doubt of anyone planning on the future, and I'm equally convinced that the current situation can drive the world to the best as much as to the worse. The longer the crisis, the most uncertain the situation.

On one side, I can believe that the economy gets better, that Obama reduces the world tension, that many local conflicts end up in peace and that we build a new world order:) .

On the other side, I could trust that our civilisation collapses to be replaced by another one, that we start to see general unrest and even revolutions, that local terrorism rises again, or that we end up with a global conflict of unprecedented scale:( .

However, this is fantasy from a writer and gamer. Let's live and see:D . About Northern Ireland, I hope that it remains as it is and continue its path to final peace. I'm convinced of what Tigger says about the people and I trust them to keep to their senses. Best wishes.

[jester]

Mo;

What is with the Obama idea? I just don't get it. He is 1 man, who is a good speaker and the media loves him. Otherwise he has an unproven track record. How on earf can he bring about peace throughout the world making people who have animosities that go back milennia set their hate aside? Human nature being what it is, well I'll be pesimisic,.

[kato13]

I would rather keep the pure political talk to a minimum. Passions regarding Obama run high on both sides.

[Mohoender]

I would rather keep the pure political talk to a minimum. Passions regarding Obama run high on both sides.

I agree and what I was saying had nothing to do with Obama as a man (it simply reflects an impression given through the french media). My only true point was that we are now in a time of uncertainty and changes were everything could be possible. Ok, I have been a little longer but that's sunday after all.:D

If you want to draw a conclusion from it just retain two ideas:
- This event is terrible and the consequences could be dramatic.
- I trust the people of Ireland and they can make a difference (If what I heard from G.Brown was true, he seems to me that he is on that line).

I also heard that tensions have been growing over the past 18 months but the peace process is still under way (A good sign I hope).

[TiggerCCW UK]

Latest news on last nights shooting is that the squaddies had actually ordered the pizza delivery and the terrs followed the delivery van to the gate of the barracks. When the squaddies went out to get it the terrs opened fire. Two squaddies were killed, two were seriously injured and two civilians seriously injured, one of them the delivery man. Afaik the other civilian was just a bystander. This comes about 36 hours after the chief constable of the PSNI announced the redeployment of the Special Recon Regt in the province due to the elevated threat level. Lots of local politicians up in arms about this but maybe this will make them reconsider their stance. These were the first military deaths in NI since Lance Bombardier Stephen Restorick was murdered by the South Armagh sniper in 1997 while manning a VCP. I'm truly hoping that this is an isolated incident and not the start of a new campaign. I hope that the majority of the population over here have realised that there is another way to live and that we can move on from this sort of thing into a modern sensible civilised society where we have properly marginalised the very small minority that want to fuck this country up for everyone.

[jester]

Yeah 97 to now is a pretty good record. Lets just hope this is an isolated incident by some hotheads. And their masters may do to the actors what they deserve for messing up a good thing and the potential of brining down vengance.

Moe,

As for uncertain times, you got it. As for your mention of how the media proports things. Not calling you one, but what kind of fool takes everything from any media source completley without their own knowledge? Then again that is why invaders and dictators take over the media outlets first. I personaly never consider the media a primary source as they often have an agenda.

As for uncertainty, I do see a return to the bad old days. Let us remember the 20s and 30s when econimic unstability, nationalism and national rivalries were the norm. And from alot of the spin from the assorted politicians who craze power like a junkie needing a fix, they will make a traditional enemy the reason the population is suffering to divert the blame and unify the people. That is usualy the case and I see that happening more in the near future. And that will make the world a much more dangerous place. That coupled with the whole desire for dwilinding resources ie oil.

Just something I do tend to think about.

Jess

[Legbreaker]

The "Real IRA" have taken responsibilty. Apparently around 40 rounds were fired, first at the soldiers and then at the pizza deliveryman.

In the statement put out by the R IRA, the civilians (including the deliveryman) we targetted as "collaborators".

It's looking like the military are going to sit back and let the police track them down. A good call in my opinion and an approach which will avoid many of the issues of a decade and more ago.

[Targan]

In the statement put out by the R IRA, the civilians (including the deliveryman) we targetted as "collaborators".
Insanity. Poor guy already has a pretty crappy job, probably a uni student or an immigrant. Hope he wasn't hurt too bad.

[TiggerCCW UK]

As previously posted RIRA have claimed responsibility. Same shower of shit the murdered 29 people in the Omagh bombing. Hopefully the cops won't be long getting them.

[Rainbow Six]

Caught this on the news yesterday morning, the day after reading an article in the Daily Mail about members of the Special Reconnaisance Regiment being redeployed to NI...to say I was shocked was putting it milldly...

Condolences to the families of those killed and best wishes for a speedy recovery for those injured...understand that one is listed as serious whilst the others are stable. To call the pizza delivery guys "collaborators" just beggars belief...

Let's all hope that it's not the start a return to the way that things were.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Last I heard on the news tonight was that the two wounded squaddies are stable, as is the younger of the delivery men. The older one, a Polish immigrant, is still in a serious condition. Sorry if I've come across strongly about this and used strong language, but I was finally starting to believe that the peace process was working here, and now I'm not so sure. We were starting to get a generation growing up here that hadn't lived through the troubles, which gave us a chance at reaching some kind of accord between the two communities. I hope we haven't blown that chance.

[Targan]

Sorry if I've come across strongly about this and used strong language...
No need to apologise Tig, I don't blame you for feeling strongly about it. We're all outraged too, but you live in NI. Terrorism could conceivably occur anywhere and IMO it is never justifiable to injure or kill unarmed civilians.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Just got up and checked the news this morning. A police officer was shot dead in Craigavon last night. Details are sketchy so far, more as it follows.

[Targan]

A police officer was shot dead in Craigavon last night.
Just monitored this story at work. Nasty.

[headquarters]

Last I heard on the news tonight was that the two wounded squaddies are stable, as is the younger of the delivery men. The older one, a Polish immigrant, is still in a serious condition. Sorry if I've come across strongly about this and used strong language, but I was finally starting to believe that the peace process was working here, and now I'm not so sure. We were starting to get a generation growing up here that hadn't lived through the troubles, which gave us a chance at reaching some kind of accord between the two communities. I hope we haven't blown that chance.

I understand your sentiments - no reasonable person want to see a return to the days were extremists held a nation hostage.

It is my understanding that both loyalists and republicans have come together in condemning the acts -publicly , and I hope this can have a positive impact .

Many of us have followed the news from NI for years as kids and the troubles have always evoked sympathies .

We hope for peace for you guys -you certainly deserve it by now.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I don't know why I'm so depressed by this - I grew up through some of the worst years of the troubles, for the first 24 years of my life it was just the way things were here, and if asked I would have said that it didn't really affect my life. Now I'm not so sure. Possibly its because I'd got used to 'peace', or at least our local version of it, or maybe its because I have a daughter of my own and worry what the future will be for her. At least the politicians are united in condemning the attacks - even Sinn Fein are saying that its terrible and wrong. Hopefully sane heads will prevail and this can be stopped and seen as no more than a speed bump on the road to peace. As I've mentioned in the past on here, the people over here are by and large good, decent normal people who don't want a return to the troubles. The vast majority just want to live their lives as peacefully as they can. Stiff Little Fingers (a local punk band for those not familiar with them) summed it up well in "Each Dollar A Bullet" with the lyrics 'Well its lasted for so long now, and so many have died. Its such a part of my whole life, yet it leaves me mystified, how a people so intelligent, friendly, kind and brave can throw themselves so willingly into an open grave'

There are enough problems both globally and locally that this is one more thing that we really don't want. Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm mostly just typing random thoughts as the rattle through my brain. Mostly I'm trying not to think the last couple of days through too much - I'm not sure I want to come up with any conclusions just yet.

Bit more information on last nights murder. It seems to have been a classic 'come on' ambush. The police received a call from a distressed female who said her house was being attacked. Two police cars responded to the call and when they got out of their cars at the scene they were fired on. One officer was hit and killed. No details have been released about him yet, other than its believed that he was married with young kids. My deepest condolences to his family.

Again apologies to anyone that I'm upsetting by ranting about this. I find it helps me get my head round the situation by writing it down on here. If you're all fed up with my moaning by all means tell me to foxtrot oscar.

[Mohoender]

Again apologies to anyone that I'm upsetting by ranting about this. I find it helps me get my head round the situation by writing it down on here. If you're all fed up with my moaning by all means tell me to foxtrot oscar.

No need for apologies. I understand it makes you worry, especially as you are living there. I first thought it would remain isolated and now I start to fear it doesn't. Hopefully (from what you say) politicians remain all on the same side. I have never been in NI but I had met a number of people from there and always liked them. I truly hope that it was over and, hopefully, you are sticking on the road to peace. Let wish for that.

[TiggerCCW UK]

The murdered officers name has just been released. Constable Stephen Paul Carrol, 48, from Banbridge. God rest. The first police officer killed in NI in ten years.

Thanks for the support folks. I'm still hopeful that this is a couple of isolated incidents, but sadly thats little consolation for the family of Constable Carrol and the two engineers murdered on Saturday and the others injured in Saturdays attack. Everyone is calling for restraint, no retaliation and no return to the bad old days. The politicians are united in condemnation of it, on all sides. The threat level is at its highest possible level.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Continuity IRA have claimed responsibility for the murder. Thats two seperate dissident groups active in the last 48 hours.

Apparently the call to the police came in from a terrified woman who'd had windows of her house smashed by a street gang. When the police responded Constable Carrol remained in the car providing cover and monitoring the radio when he was shot.

[kato13]

Even though I don't like discussion of politics, I think there is 99% plus support here for the concept that the deliberate targeting of unarmed civilians for some perceived political gain is reprehensible. While as students of history we might understand the tactical and strategic goals of the perpetrators, I cannot imagine anyone here saying that Real IRA is in the right on this one.

This is the work of deranged lunatics. Hopefully a small group of them, who will be dead before this can expand any further.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thanks for that Kato. As far as I'm concerned the politics of the situation are irrelevant - nothing justifies the targeting of civilians whose only 'crime' is delivering a pizza to an army base. Its not my intention to bring politics into this as I am well aware of the problems that this can cause. If anyone wants any political insight/information on over here please PM me, rather than toss it onto an open forum.

[Targan]

I agree, I don't think this is a topic that is likely to result in head-butting over politics. Terrorist acts and counter-insurgency ops are two areas that are bound to crop up in discussions on this forum. I'm sure we are all "big enough and ugly enough" to keep things as apolitical as possible as we discuss such topics.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I was just talking to my wife on the phone (she's at work, I'm off today, at home with the little lady) and I think she summed up peoples feelings here very well. She remarked that its only in the last year or so that we started thinking that any news reports about bombings that didn't immediately state where they were might actually be in another country. We'd become so indoctrinated to the news here being about bombings in NI that any report that started 'A bomb has exploded' or 'X people killed and injured in an explosion' was automatically assumed to be local news, even though it was normally Iraq or Afghanistan. This is changing a lot of peoples out looks. Another factor that worries me is that a lot of the security apparatus here was dismantled with almost indecent haste in the rush to make life normal again. A lot of peelers were paid off, as were a lot of the Royal Irish home service guys - the police station in my village is part time, only open for an hour in the evening Monday to Friday, and closed completely at the weekends. I hope that the powers that be aren't proven to have been to hasty in this.

[Rainbow Six]

Again apologies to anyone that I'm upsetting by ranting about this. I find it helps me get my head round the situation by writing it down on here. If you're all fed up with my moaning by all means tell me to foxtrot oscar.

Tigger, others have said it but just to reiterate the point...

No need for apologies mate...you've nothing to apologise for...

[General Pain]

I would rather keep the pure political talk to a minimum. Passions regarding Obama run high on both sides.

I totally agree, beeing against both demo-crazy and religion , I'm going to stay out of said argument. ;)

[TiggerCCW UK]

Martin McGuinness (current deputy first minister of the NI assembly, former commander of the IRA in Londonderry, rumoured former member of the IRA's Army Council) has just requested that republicans assist the police to apprehend the killers of the soldiers and the policeman last night, and he called the killers traitors to the island of Ireland. Pretty earth shattering stuff given some of the things the provo's condoned in the past. Looks like the politicians are serious about stopping the wheels from dropping off completely.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Just seen a local news flash. An 18 year old male has been arrested in connection with last nights shooting. No other information at the minute, but its a promising sign.

[Rainbow Six]

That seems to me to be a very strong statement for Martin McGuiness to make, particularly the part about the killers being traitors to the island of Ireland.

I must admit that I've been wondering since I first heard about all of this whether or not the Provisionals would try to deal with the matter themselves(i.e catch the killers, drive to a quiet spot and shoot them).

[TiggerCCW UK]

Its a bold statement for him to make, but one he had to otherwise the assembly would have become unworkable. I do genuinely believe that Sinn Fein are doing what they can to keep things on track. I don't know that the provos would go as far as topping the dissidents, but I do believe they'll be bringing a lot of pressure to bear on them.

[Legbreaker]

Heard a couple of hours ago a second person has been arrested in connection with the Police shooting. Maybe the 18 yr old rolled over?

And now to release the conspiracy nut in me...

What if certain elements supporting reconciliation and an end to the troubles were behind the initial attack? What if it was felt by some that the movement towards peace wasn't happening quickly enough and that there were still deep divisions in the people?

What better than a shared tragedy, condemnable by all, to bind everyone together?

An unspeakably evil act and highly unlikely, but sometimes conspiracy theories are right....

Personally I believe it is extremists behind both attacks, but what I can't figure out is what they hope to achieve in the mid to long term? If it was to re-ignite tensions, I'd say they've failed miserably!

Was it one last gasp, an attack on the military and police in the hope they'd overreact?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Latest news update this morning. 17 year old male and 37 year old male helping with enquiries. Large peace protests organised for today in Belfast, Lisburn, Londonderry, Newry and Armagh. It looks like people are reacting sensibly and not seeking revenge or retribution.

Legbreaker, I don't think I buy the conspiracy theory - its too risky that it might just kick it all off again. There have been loads of conspiracy allegations over here over the years, including claims that the army deliberately targeted civilians on both sides to get the terrorists fighting each other rather than the army. I think this is unlikely as I don't think they could have kept it a secret for nearly 40 years - something would have leaked by now. There was a book written a few years ago by a man claiming to have been an army assassin over here (can't remember the name offhand) but I give it little credibility. The security forces would never have allowed it to be published if it was true, and also the author showed a massive lack of knowledge about the geography over here, both physical and political. On one occasion he describes targeting a random protestant in the middle of the loyallist enclave Short Strand - in reality the Strand is the only catholic area in East Belfast, and (certainly in the early '70s) not somewhere random protestants would have been found wandering. Any army officer who served in Belfast would have been aware of this, especially if they were supposedly a highly trained government assassin.

As to why it happened now, thats the question of the hour. It may just have been a reminder that the dissidents haven't gone away, possibly its the start of a new campaign over here, in which case I think they badly misjudged public feeling but my guess is that its possibly more politically motivated - the devolution of police powers to the local assembly has been being debated recently and I don't think its beyond the bounds of possibility that its connected to that. On the other hand it may just be random chance that it happened now - a lot of the attacks here over the years don't bear up if you examine what happened and try to figure out why. For example the La Mon bombing in the late '70s when the IRA blew up a hotel and killed 12 members of the Northern Ireland kennel club hardly seems to further the cause of Irish independence. Likewise the Shankill butchers snatching random catholics off the street and torturing them to death hardly seems to help the province stay part of the UK.

[TiggerCCW UK]

The book I was thinking of is The Nemesis File by Paul Bruce. Its an alright read, but I'm sorry, I just don't buy the idea of SAS death squads roaming Belfast killing people at random, it being covered up for 30 years and then one of the members of the squad just being able to write a book about it.

[Targan]

I remember reading a book by a guy who reckoned he'd been part of an SAS death squad in NI. IIRC he never did any specialist training after selection, he basically suggested that the higher ups knew that the members of this 'special duties' squad would end up so psychologically screwed they'd be useless for any other duties afterwards. It was quite a disturbing read but now you mention it Tig it does seem a bit implausable that he'd be allowed to publish it if it was true.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I reckon thats the same book Targ. Struck me as a load of old cock. There have been too many leaks about supposedly secret operations over the years for this to have remained a secret until he decided to publish his book. And had it been true he probably would have had a D notice slapped on it to stop him publishing it and then gone to jail for breaching the official secrets act.

Unless of course thats what they want us to think..... maybe Legbreaker's conspiracy theories are rubbing off on me.

[Legbreaker]

Legbreaker, I don't think I buy the conspiracy theory
Neither do I, but it had to be put out there....

People from all sides of the situation are going to have reasons to start the troubles up once again. It's just a matter of picking which ones are behind this latest run of attacks and figuring out why (besides the obvious mental deficiency).

[TiggerCCW UK]

Latest update today is that a third man has been arrested in connection with the murder of constable Carrol and that three men were arrested today in connection with the murder of the two sappers.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Saw on the news this morning a 17 year old has been charged with Constable Carrol's murder.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Just checked the news this morning and a prominent republican dissident has been charged with the murder of the two sappers. Looks like the case might move reasonably quickly. In a press conference Republican Sinn Fein (political wing of dissident republicanism, not to be confused with Sinn Fein who are part of the govt in NI) called a press conference yesterday during which they condemned the police raids that led to the arrests of all the suspects, but refused to condemn the murders, describing them as "regrettable but inevitable acts of war". These are the type of people that we must overcome to try and ensure that we have a decent future for the law abiding majority here in the province.