In your timeline did the 1996 Olympics occur.

[kato13]

Chicago is trying to get the 2016 Olympics and have a lot of visiting officials here this week. Therefore I have been exposed to a ton of news stories this week about the Olympics.

This got me to thinking of to what would have happened in Atlanta in July 1996 in the T2k timeline. There is also a
possibility that Atlanta might not have gotten the games as they were selected in 1990 after the historical divergence point and the USSR might not have been to happy about the US getting two Olympics in 12 years.

Here are the Cities that tried
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Summer_Olympics#Selection

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm thinking there would be one of three possibilities:

1) The Games got called off.

2) The Games took place, but there were a lot of boycotts (particularly by the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact countries), plus a lot of countries that stayed home because world tensions were so high.

3) #1 happened because of #2.

[Targan]

What were the best placed competing city bids behind Atlanta? One of them might make a suitable (or interesting or funny) alternative for the T2K timeline.

I know one thing for sure - the 2000 Olympics wouldn't have happened :)

[pmulcahy11b]

According to Wikipedia:

Athens, Greece (I know they were very upset over not getting the Games -- it was the 100th anniversary of the Modern Olympics)

Belgrade, Hungary
Manchester, England
Melbourne, Australia
Toronto, Canada

[kato13]

What were the best placed competing city bids behind Atlanta? One of them might make a suitable (or interesting or funny) alternative for the T2K timeline.

I know one thing for sure - the 2000 Olympics wouldn't have happened :)

This is the order the voting finished in
Atlanta, Georgia, United States
Athens, Greece
Toronto, Ontario Canada
Melbourne, Australia
Manchester, United Kingdom
Belgrade, Yugoslavia

However Athens was leading after the first 2 rounds of voting (the lowest vote receiving country gets dropped after each round of voting)

[pmulcahy11b]

Ooops, misplaced Belgrade -- that was an embarrassing mistake!

[Legbreaker]

I tend to think it certainly would have occured, and probably included just about all nations.

In July of 1996, the only countries truely at war were China and the USSR. Sure there were tensions elsewhere, but the European theatre didn't open up until around early October - several months after the games.

Possibly a better question would be did the Commonwealth games (basically all the old British colonies from all over the world) take place in 1998 (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia)? I think yes as fuel shortages may not have become so serious that even a token attempt at normality had to be cancelled.

[pmulcahy11b]

I tend to think it certainly would have occured, and probably included just about all nations.

The last great hurrah and cooperation between the nations before the war. Sort of ironic...and sad.

[pmulcahy11b]

Here's a question: Would the bombing have happened in the 1996 Olympics, or would security have been tighter due to the tense international situation?

[Targan]

Possibly a better question would be did the Commonwealth games (basically all the old British colonies from all over the world) take place in 1998 (Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia)? I think yes as fuel shortages may not have become so serious that even a token attempt at normality had to be cancelled.
You can't be serious? In the middle of a nuclear war? Not in my campaign it wouldn't, no way.

[Legbreaker]

Well, think about it. Many, if not most of the Commonwealth nations were not actually involved in the war even though they'd certainly have been effected.
My thoughts are that each country would do their best to get a team to the games, even if the teams were a fraction of the size they would have been. Imagine the propaganda and morale boost value!
Media coverage might not be all that great, at least there wouldn't be too much in the way of live TV coverage, but newsreels, newspaper photos and articles, radio broadcasts, etc of the events would be absolutely priceless!

With regard to the 1996 bombing, I feel that would still have occured as at that time NOBODY expected continental USA to be embroiled in conflict. At that stage is was still very much a USSR vs China event. Also don't forget that it wasn't really until 9/11 that security in the US was tightened to any significant degree (which from what we heard over here on the other side of the world, it nearly crippled the country in the initial few weeks). Now of course we all expect to be searched, have our nail files confiscated and foriegners singled out for "special treatment" - very different to a few years back.

[kato13]

Here's a question: Would the bombing have happened in the 1996 Olympics, or would security have been tighter due to the tense international situation?

I would think psychologically the culprit may not have had the same drive. One of the downsides of losing the clear cut external enemy of this country (The US) is that the anti-US bombers (Tim McVeigh, Eric Rudolph, etc.) turned their hatred and destructive energy inward. IMO If the USSR was still around they could very well have been in the nuclear survivalist crowd.

One interesting question is would the USSR have not boycotted the games (I am pretty sure they would be angry at the US at this point), considering them an opportunity to infiltrate Spetsnaz teams or KGB saboteurs.

[Legbreaker]

I'm not so sure there would have been any significant hostility between the USA and USSR at that time. The war in Europe after all was effectively instigated by German concerns and the US was simply drawn in due to NATO treaty obligations. Yes, there's more to it than that I'm sure, but when you break it down, it's really just that.

So there's little need in mid 1996 for the USSR to boycott or infiltrate. A few months later on the other hand and the situation changes dramatically! In fact, I feel the Soviets would make a point of sending as strong a team as they could to show the world, China specifically, that even though they were in the midst of a major war, they could still muster the cream of their athletes and beat the world in sport.

China would probably be doing likewise and you can just imagine the heat between the two nations when they meet on the playing fields....

Now espionage between those two countries could almost be taken for granted with it ranging from relatively mild (switching athletes blood and urine samples with drug laced ones) up to possibly extreme (assassination attempts). It'd definately keep the US security teams on their toes!

[kato13]

I'm not so sure there would have been any significant hostility between the USA and USSR at that time.

The US is providing China with a serious amount of high tech weapons which broke up the Soviet Spring 1996 offensive. I am sure they are not pleased about that. Given that both '80 and '84 saw boycotts, a boycott in '96 would not surprise me.

As far as infiltration I would see the Sovs looking to sabotage manufacturing facilities or ports if they could do it deniably.

[Targan]

I think there would have been huge amounts of tension all across the world in 1996. The USSR and China were having a hot war that was rapidly turning into a horrific meat grinder, US weaponry was pouring into China, Japan and South Korea would have been absolutely freaking out, all across eastern Europe pressure was being put on WarPac nations to support the USSR militarily, NATO countries would have been extremely nervous. A USSR boycott of the 96 Olympics would be a definite possibility I'd say. As for the 98 Commonwealth Games, there has never been a comprehensive list of all the nukings that happened in places other than the USA, USSR, Canada, UK, France, parts of the Middle East. By 98 many Commonwealth countries could well have suffered one or more nuke strikes. All it takes to stop Australia sending a cricket team to places like Pakistan is a few terrorist attacks. If Pine Gap had been nuked Australia wouldn't be sending any sporting teams anywhere. By 98 Australia would be on a war footing. During the Twilight War Australia had combat forces in Vietnam and Korea and later in the war ended up fighting the Indonesians, very close to home.

[Adm.Lee]

I am reminded that in Suvorov's books on the GRU and Spetsnaz, that many Soviet team athletes were also Spetsnaz operatives. Given that background info (if you believe Suvorov, some do not), I could see a lot of Soviet athletes "defecting" after Atlanta (causing the Soviets to rumble and bluster a lot), after which the athletes disappear into American society. And then pop up to do some sabotage and assassinations once in a while.

[pmulcahy11b]

I am reminded that in Suvorov's books on the GRU and Spetsnaz, that many Soviet team athletes were also Spetsnaz operatives. Given that background info (if you believe Suvorov, some do not), I could see a lot of Soviet athletes "defecting" after Atlanta (causing the Soviets to rumble and bluster a lot), after which the athletes disappear into American society. And then pop up to do some sabotage and assassinations once in a while.

That's interesting -- I used to have, in the civilian vehicles section I once had on my site, how a vehicle was used by Spetsnaz operatives to get into and attack Microsoft after they managed to plant a worm in part of the Soviet air defense system.

[Legbreaker]

More likely Microstuffed would plant a worm in their own software than anyone elses....

:D

[chrono117]

I'm going to tone down the tensions leading up to 1999 in my game's timeline for entertainment purposes. I'm even going to have the Eurovision Song Contest going on - appropriately enough in Stockholm - up to 2000.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

You can't be serious? In the middle of a nuclear war? Not in my campaign it wouldn't, no way.

But it would not be in the middle of a nuclear war. 1996 the war was only just beginning, too early to throw nukes around.

And on another point, the bit about Australian military forces being in Korea or anywhere else. Wasn't that retroactively added by later material written by fans? Although some of those books are accepted as canon, they were written many years after the close of GDW.

My point being, a Referee could easily have the Olympics happen without much disruption because the war was barely started .

[Rainbow Six]

But it would not be in the middle of a nuclear war. 1996 the war was only just beginning, too early to throw nukes around.

And on another point, the bit about Australian military forces being in Korea or anywhere else. Wasn't that retroactively added by later material written by fans? Although some of those books are accepted as canon, they were written many years after the close of GDW.

My point being, a Referee could easily have the Olympics happen without much disruption because the war was barely started .
I think Targan was replying to Leg's speculation about whether the 1998 Commonwealth Games would have taken place?

FWIW I totally agree that the 1996 Olympics would have taken place (I can't see any good reason why they would not have as the War was confined to the Chinese and the Russians at that point, albeit maybe with a Soviet led boycott).

The 1998 Commonwealth Games would be a non starter through I think.

The prospect of the Eurovision Song Contest continuing is....interesting :) IIRC the first time Bosnia entered Sarajevo was still under siege and when the they called in their votes and did the traditional 'Hello enter Host City name here, this is Sarajevo calling' the whole place burst into cheers and applause. Or maybe that's apocryphal. It was a long time ago.

And pretty sure you're right about Australian participation in Korea being a relatively new thing. Unless I'm mistaken it's first mentioned in Rae's Korean Sourcebook, which only came out in the last couple of years (Rae can probably confirm).

[Legbreaker]

I know one thing for sure - the 2000 Olympics wouldn't have happened :)

Oh I don't know...
We knew Sydney had the Olympics well before any hostilities broke out anywhere, and Australia hasn't been nuked. Could be the government of the day saw a PR opportunity and ran it anyway, albeit SEVERELY scaled back with most "international" athletes already residents of Australia or it's near neighbours.
Might even have a small French team show up and a few from Africa and South America (one hell of a big effort to get there though with near zero likelihood of a return trip).

Yes, I am half joking...but only half.

[Targan]

Just Australia, New Zealand and the South Pacific Islands? Yeah I could see Australia running that kind of Olympics... if only to win all the medals and stick it to the Kiwis... again. Unless of course rugby was included at the Olympics that year. We know who would win that gold medal ;)

[Legbreaker]

Hey, it's not Australia's fault nobody turned up! Travel arrangements were their responsibility!

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Hey, the US has embassies and consulates and military personnel and expats and the works in countries all over the world - they might have had some participants in an Australian Olympics of 2000. Hell if anything there might be more of a chance for them to form a team and at least try. Something for both their own morale and to maybe filter home and raise spirits there.

[Legbreaker]

Hey, the US has embassies and consulates and military personnel and expats...

That's who I was thinking "athletes" might be drawn from. Same for many other nations, possibly including various Pact countries.