Manual vs Automatic (Split from Driving a BTR)

[pmulcahy11b]

There is a stick shift in the 2nd pic on my first link.

You know, I can't even drive a regular stick -- let alone a vehicle that has two engines! I suppose they only have one transmission, though.

[Raellus]

You know, I can't even drive a regular stick -- let alone a vehicle that has two engines! I suppose they only have one transmission, though.

I can't drive stick either. So, this will be a double RP'ing challenge for me.:)

[Targan]

I prefer "stick" to automatic gear boxes. More control. Then again I have a truck licence and ride motorbikes as well so with those modes of transport its stick or nothing. I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?

[JimmyRay73]

I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?

Unfortunately yes. I fear that children will be born without left feet if we don't start teaching them to use clutch pedals...

[kato13]

I prefer "stick" to automatic gear boxes. More control. Then again I have a truck licence and ride motorbikes as well so with those modes of transport its stick or nothing. I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?


I learned to drive on a stick but have probably only driven like 10 hours on one since then. If you live in a city with lots of stop and go traffic it is annoying.

Also we need that second hand to hold our coffee, burger or phone ;) though I have seen people holding the phone and shifting. Yes that means ZERO hands on the wheel.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Thats a pretty regular sight here sadly. And women putting their makeup on while driving!

[pmulcahy11b]

And women putting their makeup on while driving!

Trust me, that's not just in Ireland. Makeup brush in one hand, cell phone in another, steering with their knees...

[TiggerCCW UK]

And slurping coffee when they can :)

And no, I'm not having a pop at women drivers - men are every bit as bad, although not usually with makeup.

[Raellus]

I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?

I would say that a majority of passenger vehicles in the U.S. are automatic, nowadays.

I'm ashamed to admit that I never learned to drive stick. My old man tried to teach me when I was a teenager but we both kind of gave up on it after a few tense, testy trial runs. I was a tall (6'4") gawky kid with size 15 (UK 14) feet and the family VW was just too cramped for me to manage three pedals.

Society would have us believe that stick is more masculine (the stick as an extension of the penis, perhaps?). I wish I could drive stick but I don't feel any less manly because I can't. I hope I never need the skill, though. It would probably be handy to have come the apocalypse.:o

My little bro is an automotive elitist and refuses to drive anything without a manual transmission, so I understand the "real drivers prefer manual" mentality.

[jester]

I prefer "stick" to automatic gear boxes. More control. Then again I have a truck licence and ride motorbikes as well so with those modes of transport its stick or nothing. I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?


More so than you think sadly. That is how I got to be the Col and Generals driver! His real official trained driver didn't know how to drive a strickshift. He liked to ride in a jeep. I reported in the Sgt in charge of the shop a causal aquantance from the Bn asked if I knew how to drive a stick. "I thought he was going to send me on an errand, pick up lunch or something!" He tosses the keys to me and says, "Good! You're driving the Colonel!" DOH!

But yes, most women do not know how to drive a stick, and half the guys don't either.

Paul, Raell turn in your man cards! You two are on probation until you learn how to drive a stick, unless you two master riding motorcycles and can ride them like Steve McQueen in "The Great Escape" to redeem yourselves.

[jester]

I learned to drive on a stick but have probably only driven like 10 hours on one since then. If you live in a city with lots of stop and go traffic it is annoying.

Also we need that second hand to hold our coffee, burger or phone ;) though I have seen people holding the phone and shifting. Yes that means ZERO hands on the wheel.


I have mastered shifting while drinking coffee and I always maintain control of my vehicle, with hands on the controls and eyes on the wheel!

Then again I am left handed, I just mastered holding the wheel and a cup of coffee with my left hand while I shift, when shift is completed, right hand goes back to the wheel, and left hand brings me that sweet sweet warm nectar of life that comes from tropical climates like Coasta Rica, Sumatra and Kona..............ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh kona :)

[pmulcahy11b]

I prefer "stick" to automatic gear boxes. More control. Then again I have a truck licence and ride motorbikes as well so with those modes of transport its stick or nothing. I can't imagine what it would be like not to know how to drive a manual gearbox car. Is that a common situation in the US?

Well, I've had more than one sergeant try to teach me a stick, in jeeps and trucks -- but growing up, almost every car we had was automatic, because my mother can't drive a stick either. I remember one 6-mile run I did down a dirt road, because Sergeant Cook couldn't take me grinding the gears anymore, told me to get out of the truck and get back to the motor pool FAST. Then he left me there.

Sticks just aren't in my DNA, I guess!

[JimmyRay73]

My mother tried to teach me to drive manual, but it didn't work so well. What did work was Dad tossing me the keys and saying "Go practice, don't wreck it." I just went out and did what I had seen him do over the years and I was road worthy in no time flat. Of course the fact that he tends to drive manuals a bit aggressively seems to have colored my approach to driving. I think my time between gears could almost be measured in micro-seconds... :rolleyes:

I've never actually owned a car with an automatic, and I have no intention of breaking that streak any time soon.

[Targan]

I've never actually owned a car with an automatic, and I have no intention of breaking that streak any time soon.
Me neither. The lack of engine braking in automatics makes me feel uncomfortable.

This thread has proved to be very interesting to me. I'll have to go over all the PCs and NPCs in my campaign and determine which are "stick" drivers and which aren't.

[Legbreaker]

I'll have to go over all the PCs and NPCs in my campaign and determine which are "stick" drivers and which aren't.
Sounds like the rule of thumb will likely be along the lines of:

American = automatic only (95% of the time)
Anyone else - high chance of manual proficiency

I've had one automatic in my entire life, and that was my ex's car from before she met me. She's now a die hard manual only driver (but still a bitch).

Autos just don't give you the control you need in my opinion, especially when towing a load or in hilly and winding roads. They're wasteful of power, have a lower top speed on the whole and are invariably more expensive than the manual versions of the same vehicle.

However, they're ok for general city use, but I still much prefer a manual even in the heavier traffic.

[kato13]

Sounds like the rule of thumb will likely be along the lines of:

American = automatic only (95% of the time)
Anyone else - high chance of manual proficiency


95% seems way too high. I live in an urban area of the US and about 25% of the drivers I know have driven stick at one point in their life. It would of course decrease as you skew younger and increase as you skew rural.

If you put me behind a stick in a crisis the car would die on me a few times, but after an hour of driving I am sure it would seem like second nature again.

Currently car manufacturers make between 2-10% of their cars with a manual transmission. During the T2k time line it would have been a bit higher.

[jester]

I would think the following catagories would automativcaly know how to drive a stick:

Gear heads and mechanics

People who are crazy about cars or a specific model. The Volkswagen bugs for example have a following as do VW vans and most are stick.

Guys who spent alot of time in auto shop in school

Rural people most know.

Motorcyclists, most you shift.

Speed freaks,

Folks who worked construction or on or around heavy vehicles and equipment like construction.

I would say that if your characters had those backgrounds then they would most than likely have the ability to drive a manual.

However, the familairity with that type of stick shift is another storey, even I ONCE only ONCE had problems with a manual I was unfamilair with, it was backwards, reverse was where 1st is normaly at.

I today have two stick sifts and the reverse is in yet another different place, it is where 5th is on my other truck, to the right more than normal and up, whereas it is oposite on my other truck, the thing is both are dodges, although one is japanese made. And then the FIAT is normal lol well when it runs that is :D

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, seems like a little research needs to be done then to ascertain the percentages. I'm sure one of the various automotive groups in the US have done something like that.

Anyone over in that part of the world able to check into it?

[Targan]

So Kato, Raellus' original thread topic is cool and deserves attention of its own. Could we please perhaps have a new "Stick vs Automatic" thread?

[Rupert Willies]

My brother used to drive and roll cigarettes. That was both awesome and scary at the same time. Adding to the fact that this was "special cigarettes" that needed extra preparations, including lighter-drying the tobacco and baking the hash, the whole picture is retrospectively quite insane. Glad those days are in the past. :o


I learned to drive on a stick but have probably only driven like 10 hours on one since then. If you live in a city with lots of stop and go traffic it is annoying.

Also we need that second hand to hold our coffee, burger or phone ;) though I have seen people holding the phone and shifting. Yes that means ZERO hands on the wheel.

[rabbakahn]

I don't know about the 95% for americans. 20 some years ago it was common place to find someone driving a manual here in the central valley of California. Not just manly men either... You could find women, kids, men, old folks, most any kind of driver. Granted that was 20+ years ago, so I have no idea what it is like now. I blew my left knee out some time back and quit driving manual cars; quit driving at all actually.

[Mohoender]

LOL

From what I read about manual gear, I know how to stop the US Army. You don't even need a gun.:D

[Mohoender]

I would think the following catagories would automativcaly know how to drive a stick:



Anyone who is not american.:p Except for the oldest of you guys.:D

[Mohoender]

I started that day with a bad mood. Now, I'll be laughing my ass off for the entire night. Thanks. LOL, LOL, LOL (no offense).:p Now I understand why you always find a Russian among a US unit in T2K. Either they find one or they simply walk.:D

[Trooper]

Well here in Finland they dont sell cars with automatic gear. Don't ask why. Use manual or walk. It's not illegal to own car with automatic gear, but for some reason everybody is using stick?

[kato13]

Trooper glad you posted. Thanks for that piece of information.

[Legbreaker]

I think this all reinforces my thoughts....

Americans are lazy! :D

[pmulcahy11b]

I think this all reinforces my thoughts....

Americans are lazy! :D

I'd answer that charge, but I don't have the motivation...:p

[pmulcahy11b]

LOL

From what I read about manual gear, I know how to stop the US Army. You don't even need a gun.:D

That's more true than you think -- when I left the Army, they had just about all stick vehicles replaced with ones using automatic transmissions. The only stick vehicles you saw regularly were older 5-ton and 2.5-ton trucks -- even the old jeeps were gone soon after I went on active duty.

[jester]

Very well, lets see if the gear set up is the same?

In the U.S, the set up of a most manual transmissions is set up as follows:


1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

5th <not all manuals have a 5th gear> to the right and forward <1 vehicle is was right and rear>

Reverse on most is to the right and rear,

How are they set up for you guys in Europe, Oz and Asia?


That would be funny if the PC is used to a manual transmission and jumps into one thinking "no problem" and when they put it in 1st it turns out to be reverse. Sorry it's just the evil GM with a bit of prankster in me ;)

[Mohoender]

1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

5th <not all manuals have a 5th gear> to the right and forward <1 vehicle is was right and rear>



Outside US, this will change according to the car model. On several the position will be different (especially ancient models that have a better chance to survive in T2K). Also you forget the reverse drive (usually you can't go on reverse while going forward but it may depend). By the way, I wouldn't be surprised to find some other solutions.

1st solution
1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

5th to the right and forward

Reverse to the right and to the rear.

2nd solution
1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

5th right and to the rear

Reverse to the right and forward (rare, I found it on old japanese cars, may be italian but not sure).

3rd solution
1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

Reverse to the right and forward.

4th solution
1st Gear is left and forward

2nd Gear left and to the rear

3rd Center and forward

4th Center and to the rear

Reverse to the right and to the rear (rare I think).

5th solution and an amusing one which is not that uncommon
Reverse to the left and forward (never saw one to the rear)

1st Gear Center and forward

2nd Center and to the rear

3rd to the right and forward

4th to the right and to the rear.

For all, the neutral is at the center when your stick is dead in hand. If you forget to put it on neutral (check this before starting the engine), your vehicle will jump forward or backward when you start it. Not really a problem but it is enough for a small crash or to throw you down the cliff.:D In addition, you engine will stop each time.

Finally, there is a last one on older models such as the citroën 2CV and several other older models: the stick will be find next to the stearing wheel.:p It also seems that many pre-WW2 vehicles had only 3 gears. Again several might survive and that can be fun as well (4 in my village alone, inlcuding a truck, owned by collectors). At last, the newest 4WD vehicles often have a second stick.

Then, in game terms you can have a lot of fun if you want to be mean with your players:
- Destruction of the vehicle clutch pack (I hope it's the right term) on fairly short notice (especially with US players and women from all nationalities;) )
- Full destruction of the engine after using reverse instead of forward.
- Full destruction of the engine because of the driver leaving the 1st gear on and forgetting about the others. 1st gear is only to start, to control the engine brake and shouldn't be ran at more than 10mph (else your engine will blow up quite quickly). It might also chose to simply leave your car. That happens to my cousin with an old honda civic. He put the injection on and the gear went down from 4th to 2nd gear without notice. As a result, he heard a big noise and felt his car driving over something before coming to a dead stop 50 meters later. He had left his engine behind.:D
- Regular bumping accident (vehicle going backward while you hoped to go forward, reduced attention as you focus on the stick...).
- Inhability of the player to even start the vehicle.
- Funny habit of having the engine coming to a brutal stop every 10 meters or so.:p (It happens even with someone used to this). Trust me, if you driver does that all the time, you'll quickly feel like shooting him in the head (because of minor wounds for the other PCs and NPCs).
- Jumping down the cliff because you forgot to start in neutral (make your day)...:(

The stick advantages:
- It's more sturdy (from dust, mud...) and may last longer (It brakes faster also as the driver is always the weak point).
- It doesn't need any electronic.
- It is easier to repair (you can fix it with less advanced technology).
- It allows you to fully control your engine break and you might not even have to use your regular breaks in hard slopes. (Actually, you might be capable of controlling a car in a steep slope even without brakes). I have gone down a mountain road (4-5 miles with 15-20% slope) in a mitsubshi CJ (from the early 1950's) who had lost its brakes. We arrived alive as the driver was able to maintain the vehicle speed under 20mph but I'm not feeling like doing that too often. Someone talked about the movie "Gods must be crazy", look at the landrover, that's exactly it.
- You can start your vehicle in 1st, 2nd (fairly easy), 3rd (average), 4th (very difficult) and 5th (heroic) gear. As a result, you can use a vehicle with a damaged one.

Another thing with it in game terms again. If your player tries the stick before moving to check were all positions are, you should grant him a fair bonus in controlling it.

I always try the stick before starting a car I don't know just to be sure. I can start a car in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear (I'm not good enough to start it in 4th and 5th and know very little people who can). I usually change my brakes later than usual (I gain from 10000 to 15000 miles with them). I have used all sorts of manual gear but I once drove a bit to close to a tree (because of the stearing wheel stick on a 2CV, now I know).

No I'm not making fun of anyone, I have witnessed and experienced almost all of these and these are only clues for those who don't know. Actually, from what I read many of your players are going out of the US and they will have to deal with that. Anyway, when I drive an automatic you better not forget to buckle up. At some point, I will harshly brake as I foget I don't have to use my left foot.

[Legbreaker]

Yes, that's how it is here in Australia (except for a few rare exceptions).

There's also the much older manual common refered to as "three in the tree". In other words, three forward gears and one reverse with the gear stick located on the side of the steering collumn - very rare to see these days as I think it went out of use (in new car construction) back in the 70s.

Something else to keep in mind that many countries drive on the left side of the road meaning the driver sits on the right and uses their left hand to change gear. Right foot works the accelerator and brake while left foot controls the clutch.

So, while a person might be able to drive a manual in the US or France, they could have some issues in another country where driving is on the left - at least until they retrain their bodies to use the opposite hand to what they're used to.

[Targan]

I was aware that in countries where they drive on the wrong right hand side of the road the gear stick is to the right of the driver but I'd always assumed the accelerator, brake and clutch pedals were aligned the same the world over. Am I wrong?

As for "three on the tree" I'd forgotten about that. I've driven an old Holden ute with that sort of gear system, incredibly heavy clutch for a car but kind of fun.

[Legbreaker]

"Three on the tree" or "four on the floor"....

[Mohoender]

I was aware that in countries where they drive on the wrong right hand side of the road the gear stick is to the right of the driver but I'd always assumed the accelerator, brake and clutch pedals were aligned the same the world over. Am I wrong?

As for "three on the tree" I'd forgotten about that. I've driven an old Holden ute with that sort of gear system, incredibly heavy clutch for a car but kind of fun.

You are right. Actually, using it the other way around is not that much of a problem. Staying on the proper side of the road is much more difficult, however. Taking the roundabout is even more difficult and might become tense when you get a huge truck coming toward you.

On the other hand, that wouldn't be an issue anymore in T2K.:D

[jester]

I know some of the older jeep trucks used the three in a tree type automatic.

As for pedal position in the US it is;

Far left is clutch if it is a manual, then brake, then gas pedal. And on some models the parking brake is also on the FAR FAR left near the wall of the cab, my jeep and one of my dodge trucks had it, another dodge truck had a handbrake on the far left under the dash, the two cars I drive now a handbrake in the center of the console where or behind where the stick for a manual would be.

[Targan]

Far left is clutch if it is a manual, then brake, then gas pedal. And on some models the parking brake is also on the FAR FAR left near the wall of the cab, my jeep and one of my dodge trucks had it, another dodge truck had a handbrake on the far left under the dash, the two cars I drive now a handbrake in the center of the console where or behind where the stick for a manual would be.
Same as here. Thanks for that.

[Badbru]

First Datsun ute I had was column shift manual 78 model 1500. Four on the tree. I loved it.

Second datsun, or rather Nissan 720 ute was also a column shift manual four on the tree.

The cabin seemed less clutered and the shifting was simple and fun. I'd actually prefer a column shift manual for my car but currently I drive an auto and don't really like it. The car itself seems weaker and I feel the same way. Lazy car.

[Mohoender]

The cabin seemed less clutered and the shifting was simple and fun. I'd actually prefer a column shift manual for my car but currently I drive an auto and don't really like it. The car itself seems weaker and I feel the same way. Lazy car.

That is the only point I forgot to make: manual are more fun. That is always true (IMO) except in urban areas. For urban driving, automatics are superior by far.

[Legbreaker]

As an ex-professional driver on Sydney's busy streets, I still prefer a manual over an automatic, even with the constant gear changes.
It's all about the control you have over the vehicle. Sure ten or twelve hours ever day on the road in traffic was tough, but on the few occasions I had to drive an automatic, I HATED it.
And since I was doing mobile security patrols at the time with each stop usually no more than a few hundred metres apart, there were a hell of a lot of gear changes!

[pmulcahy11b]

As an ex-professional driver on Sydney's busy streets, I still prefer a manual over an automatic, even with the constant gear changes.
It's all about the control you have over the vehicle. Sure ten or twelve hours ever day on the road in traffic was tough, but on the few occasions I had to drive an automatic, I HATED it.
And since I was doing mobile security patrols at the time with each stop usually no more than a few hundred metres apart, there were a hell of a lot of gear changes!

I've known a lot of cops in my life (and my next-door neighbor is a retired deputy sheriff for this county), and they have all said that they prefer a stick to an automatic in their police cars, and civilian cars if available. They tell me that transmission response is much faster than on an automatic transmission.

I also know that Special Forces troops I've spoken to prefer a stick when they are driving vehicles appropriate to the role (such as civilian vehicles in urban areas and suchlike). For long, overland hauls, they prefer automatics, however; it reduces driver fatigue. An that was in general the US Army's reasoning to switch to an all-automatic combat fleet -- reduction of driver fatigue.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

First Datsun ute I had was column shift manual 78 model 1500. Four on the tree. I loved it.

Second datsun, or rather Nissan 720 ute was also a column shift manual four on the tree.

The cabin seemed less clutered and the shifting was simple and fun. I'd actually prefer a column shift manual for my car but currently I drive an auto and don't really like it. The car itself seems weaker and I feel the same way. Lazy car.

I know only automatics, but I'd like to learn how to drive a standard because I'll never know when I'll need to.

At work, we have a Chevy Colorado (actually an Isuzu pickup), Ford Ranger (IIRC, actually a Mazda) and two Pontiac Vibes. I like the Colorado the best because it has a five cylinder engine, the headlights come on automatically and so on. I step on the gas, it takes off like a rocket. The Ford Ranger, OTOH, is a pig, it is slow, sluggish and you really got to floor it to get it to go fast. It has the 2.3 liter engine, a small 4 cylinder. My mother's Hyundai Sonata has a bigger engine than that, her's is a 2.4 liter, 4 cylinder. The Vibes are OK.

Chuck M.

[Targan]

As an ex-professional driver on Sydney's busy streets, I still prefer a manual over an automatic, even with the constant gear changes.
It's all about the control you have over the vehicle.
Right on brother. I feel the same way.

[jester]

Let me hear a second AMEN!!!!

The automatic I drive now, grrrrrrrrrr I wait and wait and wait for it to shift it is painfuly slow, whereas on my former truck with a manual, poof when it felt right, shift.

[JimmyRay73]

The "three on the tree" column mount manuals were pretty common back in the day, and I kinda want to track down an old beater with one just for the heck of it. In high school I had a friend with a three speed manual on the floor in a 1969 or '70 Mustang. Reverse was way left and forward I think. 1st was not as left and not as forward, 2nd was straight back from 1st, and 3rd was right and forward. If you weren't careful when racing the shift to 3rd would sometimes result in cracking you're knuckles against the radio knobs or dashboard trim... Also the clutch effort was brutal. After a couple of runs up and down the street in that car my (already battered) left knee was an absolute wreck. That really made me appreciate the hydraulic clutch in my 280ZX.

On a side note I once met a hill-billy type guy that claimed to have a 5 speed in an old Plymouth Duster. When I questioned him on the matter since I knew damn well that the only Dusters to come with a 5 speed were the front engine newer ones he replied: "I've got 4 on the floor and a fifth under the seat!" as he reached for the whiskey bottle.

[JimmyRay73]

At work, we have a Chevy Colorado (actually an Isuzu pickup), Ford Ranger (IIRC, actually a Mazda) and two Pontiac Vibes. I like the Colorado the best because it has a five cylinder engine, the headlights come on automatically and so on. I step on the gas, it takes off like a rocket. The Ford Ranger, OTOH, is a pig, it is slow, sluggish and you really got to floor it to get it to go fast. It has the 2.3 liter engine, a small 4 cylinder.
Chuck M.

Actually the Mazda pickups were copies of the Ranger after Ford kinda swallowed up Mazda. With a manual transmission those Rangers and B2000s are not bad at all, but Ford's automatics have always been no fun in trucks. The gearbox and final drive are set up for dragging loads, not having fun. Having driven Rangers with that same engine and both transmission choices I have to say that the manual makes a huge difference. Hell, even the V6 Ranger with an automatic was a dog because of the way it was set up.