OT - Book (Fiction) Review/Recommendations Thread

[kato13]

Since we are a pretty well read group I thought we could share our opinions on any books we read recently. As the header indicates any subject books are allowed for review not just Post Apocalyptic. Please feel free to post anything you think might be of interest to our users.

If any book spurs a vigorous discussion I will spawn a new thread and put the links below.

[Jason Weiser]

The Last Centurion- John Ringo

The Stand- Stephen King

Alas, Babylon- Pat Frank

The Third World War and The Third World War, The Untold Story- Sir John Hackett

Team Yankee by Harold Coyle

Red Army and The War in 2020 by Ralph Peters

Arc Light by Eric Harry

World War Z by Max Brooks (not the Zombies, but the struggle of governments to make decisions in crisis)

Down to a Sunless Sea by David Graham

The Last Ship by William Brinkley

Lucifer's Hammer by Niven and Pournelle

Red Storm Rising- by Tom Clancy

The War That Never Was- by Michael A. Palmer

[JHart]

Mentioned above:
Read most of those listed, but most have been out for a while, just commenting on the recent novels

The Last Centurion- John Ringo Read this a little while back. A light EOTWAWKI scenario, but a good story

World War Z by Max Brooks The story was good, but not very accurate on military matters.

The Last Ship by William Brinkley Just got around to reading this a a few months ago, depressing to say the least.


Recently Read:
Airship Nine by Thomas H. Block Very similar story to The Last Ship, with EOTWAWKI scenario just as bleak

Proud Legions by John Antal Modern Korean war scenario

[Matt Wiser]

Read most of the above, but here's a few more:

Trinity's Child (from which the movie By Dawn's Early Light was based)

First Clash: Combat Close Up in World War III-the Canadian 4th Mech Brigade vs. the Russians in West Germany (there was a sequel but I haven't found it-yet)

Trial by Fire and The Ten Thousand: two more by Harold Coyle

The Warbirds and Force of Eagles by Richard Herman

Choosers of the Slain, Sea Strike, Sea Fighter, and Target Lock by James H. Cobb (the Amanda Garrett books)

World War III-the novelization of the 1982 Miniseries with Rock Hudson as the President and Brian Keith as the Soviet Premier.

[TiggerCCW UK]

Brother in the land : Robert Swindells. Story of survivors of a nuclear war in the UK. Written as a book for teens/young adults, but still very very good. Try and pick up an early copy before the ending was rewritten for a 'happy ending'.

War Day : Whitley Streiber & James Kunetka. Story of a journey across America in the aftermath of a limited nuclear war. Great read.

Children of the Dust : Louise Lawrence. Story of 3 generations of survivors after a nuclear war in the UK.

I'll add some more later.

[Targan]

Brother in the land : Robert Swindells. Story of survivors of a nuclear war in the UK. Written as a book for teens/young adults, but still very very good. Try and pick up an early copy before the ending was rewritten for a 'happy ending'.I think we've posted about this before and I've been wondering ever since, which version I read (we're talking probably more than 20 years ago).

Children of the Dust : Louise Lawrence. Story of 3 generations of survivors after a nuclear war in the UK.I second this one.

My first suggestion for this thread is - Anything written by Peter Hamilton. The man is a sci fi god.

[TiggerCCW UK]

The only real difference between the two versions of the book is that the newer version adds an extra chapter with them reaching another settlement. I preferred the open ending of the original version.

[Jason Weiser]

How could I forget!

The entire Dies the Fire series from S.M. Sterling!

[Rainbow Six]

WEB Griffin's Brotherhood of War and Corps series

Vortex and Red Phoenix by Larry Bond

Any of Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan / John Kelly novels (as my handle suggests I'm obviously a Clancy fan)

Frederick Forsyth - Fist of God (set in Gulf War I); the Afghan (a sequel of sorts to Fist of God); The Negotiator (read this one pretty much in one go on a transatlantic flight and thoroughly enjoyed it)

[TiggerCCW UK]

More similar tastes Rainbow - I was going to recommend Vortex and Red Phoenix :) Other fiction I'd recommend includes ;

No Man's Land : Barry England. Set in Australia in the aftermath of an unspecified apocalyptic event.

The Forever War : Joe Haldeman. Epic novel of a future war spanning centuries. One of my favourite pieces of sci fi ever.

Protect and Defend : Eric L Harry. Another great read from the same author as Arc Light.

The Hunters : James Salter. A novel about early jet pilots in Korea.

[Targan]

No Man's Land : Barry England. Set in Australia in the aftermath of an unspecified apocalyptic event.I'm going to have to go looking for this one. Sounds good.

The Forever War : Joe Haldeman. Epic novel of a future war spanning centuries. One of my favourite pieces of sci fi ever.Agreed. Haldeman was a Vietnam vet and it shows in his descriptions of how soldiers feel when they come home from a war and find that things have changed while they were gone.

[TiggerCCW UK]

No Mans Land doesn't specificaly say its in Australia, it was the name of a river that tipped me off. It never states what happened, merely referring to it as 'The Event'. I enjoyed it, although its not really typical end of the world post apoc writing. Concentrates on one man and his efforts to save himself and a small group, both from marauder types and from the new government. I recommend it as something slightly different, but its a good read even if you're not looking for something post apoc.

[O'Borg]

I can heartily recommend the Sharpe series of books - quite a bit different from the films. I've just finished the entire series in chronological order. Richard Sharpe is a bastard, but a magnificent one :cool:

Death of Grass (aka No Blade of Grass) is pretty good. Sort of post-Apoc, but where the apocalypse is the devastation of the worlds grass based food stocks (rice, wheat etc) by a plague.

And I can't let a thread like this go by without mentioning a couple of my favourite sci-fi/cyberpunk books - Hardwired and Voice of the Whirlwind by Walter Jon Williams. :)

[Raellus]

While trying to find a "like new" used copy of Team Yankee on Amazon (read it as a teen but stupidly got rid of it when the U.S.S.R. collapsed...), I discovered that there's apparently a graphic novel version of the story. Anybody ever seen it?

For great cyberpunk, check out the originator, William Gibson's Neuromancer. Count Zero is also pretty good.

[Targan]

I agree that Gibson is a great author, and anything in the Cyberpunk genre by Bruce Stirling is also good. Another excellent author in the Cyberpunk genre is Neal Stephenson (Snow Crash is one of his and I really liked it).

[Matt Wiser]

I've got the Graphic Novel of Team Yankee: very well done, and faithful to the novel. Only things missing are the several scenes showing the Russians' POV. Other than that, nothing's missing.

[Raellus]

I've got the Graphic Novel of Team Yankee: very well done, and faithful to the novel. Only things missing are the several scenes showing the Russians' POV. Other than that, nothing's missing.

How's the artwork?

[rcaf_777]

[QUOTE]First Clash: Combat Close Up in World War III-the Canadian 4th Mech Brigade vs. the Russians in West Germany (there was a sequel but I haven't found it-yet)[QUOTE] The book or CF battle plan is was based on?

[Matt Wiser]

Raellus: The artwork is excellent.

rcaf_777: The book, as I understand it, was originally written as a training tool by Kenneth Macksey, but was released as a future-history book sometime in the mid '80s, about the time Red Storm Rising came out.

[Legbreaker]

Wolf and Iron by Gordon R Dickson to me describes the T2K, or more accurately a post apocalyse world, very well.

[Raellus]

Raellus: The artwork is excellent.

Cool. I'll have to find a copy somewhere.

Leg, is that the same author who wrote the Dorsai books? I read a few of those in high school.

[Targan]

Leg, is that the same author who wrote the Dorsai books? I read a few of those in high school.
I loved the Dorsai books when I was a teenager. Thanks for reminding me Raellus.

[Littlearmies]

Red Army and The War in 2020 by Ralph Peters



I really enjoyed Red Army when it came out - a real antidote to the "our technology and better training is going to trounce their brute force" attitude of so many other books from the period. The books hypothesis is essentially what if the Russian Army performed pretty much as intended against NATO in Europe?

Looking him up on Amazon he also writes ACW detective fiction as Owen Parry as well as more factual military / political analysis (I'm assuming this is the same guy). I'll be keeping a look out for War In 2020.

Off the WWIII / EOTWAWKI genre I've particularly enjoyed reading a couple of thrillers by a Swedish author Stieg Larsson, The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, and The Girl Who Played With Fire - I'm mortified that the final volume, The Girl Who Kicked Over A Hornets Nest will not be translated into English and published until January 2010.

I'd also highly recommend A Sense Of Honour by James Webb about cadets at Annapolis in the closing days of Vietnam (Webb also wrote Fields Of Fire, a fictionalised memoir of his tour in Vietnam which is extremely good) and Something To Die For which revisits one of the central characters from A Sense Of Honour when he is serving as CO of an MEU operating in the Horn of Africa.

[Marc]

I've recently read two novels about the post-apoc backround, one of them discovered thanks to this forum. The first one is "The road", by Cormac McCarthy. Strangely I was planning to buy it trough Amazon after reading a recommendation from Kato but while I was bored in the queue of the supermarket I realized that the unknown novel exposed in one desk near the cashdesk and titled “La carretera” was, in fact, “The road”. Ah! The fate and its own strange mechanisms...Ok, here you have the original thread:
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=142
And, as Kato stated, 5 out of 5 mushrooms clouds... Only small advice: Don’t expect to find any explanation about the cause of the apocalypse. Just read the book, suffer (and enjoy).

And, as a “bonus track”, the trailer of the film. Personally I’ve found it too long and it seems that the director has added some clues about the cause of the end of the civilitzation...so...only for precaution...read the book before see the story trough the eyes of others...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbLgszfXTAY

The other book I’ve read is “Wasteland, stories of the apocalypse”, about 20 short stories, gathered together, all of them playing with the end of the civilitzation. This book is more in the sci-fi genre. Some of its stories are settled far away in the future, thousands of years after the collapse. Others are about the collapse process itself. It’s possible you will find here some story you have previously read. In my case, I’ve found one story from Orson Scott Card and its book “The Folk of the Fringe”.
A recommendation: “When Sysadmins ruled the Earth”.

The links to Amazon for more information:

http://www.amazon.com/Wastelands-Stories-Apocalypse-Stephen-King/dp/1597801054

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307265439

[Raellus]

I love The Road. I'm manly enough to admit that it's the only book that's ever made me cry- both times I read it!:o

Based on recs from this forum, I just read The Forever War (military-themed sci-fi) and was not disappointed. Great book; very creative. So much of what goes on in the novel is relatable to what's going on with America's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I plan on reading Heinlein's Starship Troopers soon for the pro-war counterpoint.

I'm currently rereading Neuromancer by William Gibson. Great near-future sci-fi. It's amazing how prescient it seems.

[Targan]

I recently finished reading World War Z, also as a result of reading recommendations here. Loved it. The author is obviously no military expert and he got a few things wrong about military hardware that the characters making the comments would have got right but it was good story telling.

[Marc]

I love The Road. I'm manly enough to admit that it's the only book that's ever made me cry- both times I read it!:o

Based on recs from this forum, I just read The Forever War (military-themed sci-fi) and was not disappointed. Great book; very creative. So much of what goes on in the novel is relatable to what's going on with America's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I plan on reading Heinlein's Starship Troopers soon for the pro-war counterpoint.

I'm currently rereading Neuromancer by William Gibson. Great near-future sci-fi. It's amazing how prescient it seems.

I liked “The Forever War” and I prefer it to “Starship troopers”. I remember that the controversial about if “Starship troopers” was (or not) a pro-war novel was a good material for our chats in the pub. As an anecdote, we had the great luck that the library of the the Universitat Politècnica de Catalunya (Polytehcnic University of Catalonia), had a large section devoted only to science-fiction novels. This university even has its own contest for sci-fi short stories that produce one yearly publication with the better jobs. With the guidance of a good friend (both of us studied in that university) I discovered great novels like Neuromancer (your mention of the book has remember me the sci-fi library of the University).

About Heinlen, I’ve recently read “Farmer in the sky”, about the colonists of a new settlement in Ganymede. A very good book about adaptation, survival and about the choice of left behind everything you know except for 26 kg of equipment and begin a new life in an unknown world.

[Raellus]

Ralph Peters, the author of the superb Cold War era novel of WWIII, Red Army (written from the Soviet soldier's POV), is putting out a new novel which looks like it could provide some inspiration for T2K (all iterations) campaigns. It looks like it's about a post-nuclear exchange conventional war where the fighting as devolved to a decidedly low-tech level. I haven't read it yet so I can't give it a review but it looks pretty interesting and I really enjoyed Red Army.

It's called The War After Armageddon. Here's a link to Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0765323559/ref=s9_intb_gw_tr02?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0MZXQ3ZTRTA162HCQDD1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846

BTW, I'm a little embarrassed to admit that I'm just now reading Starship Troopers for the very first time. I'm enjoying it so far. I also just finished reading Ender's Game, another sci-fi novel exploring war in the far future. It's targetted at young adults but I found it pretty intense and mature in tone and content. Both it and Forever War are essentially anti-war novels so it's interesting to read Heinlein's novelistic counterpoint.

[Targan]

I also just finished reading Ender's Game, another sci-fi novel exploring war in the far future. It's targetted at young adults but I found it pretty intense and mature in tone and content. Both it and Forever War are essentially anti-war novels so it's interesting to read Heinlein's novelistic counterpoint.
If you like Ender's game then you've got a lot of reading ahead of you because there are a bunch of novels set in the same universe which come afterwards. I've read four of them and I'll get to the rest eventually. All good so far.

[Littlearmies]

Has anyone tried this? It came up as a recommendation for me on Amazon - evidently it's pretty recent.

http://www.amazon.com/One-Conrad-Williams/dp/0753518104/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250432766&sr=1-4

Malcolm

[Marc]

I also just finished reading Ender's Game, another sci-fi novel exploring war in the far future. It's targetted at young adults but I found it pretty intense and mature in tone and content.

I've read the "Ender's Game" and the four sequels that "complete" the cycle intitated in the first novel: "Speaker for the Dead", "Xenocide" and "Children of the mind" . Raellus, I recommend all of them to you. And forget about "targetted at young adults" with the sequels though I must warn you: they are not about the war, though some of their consecuences are in the background of the plot.

As Targan said, there are other novels from Orson Scott Card set in the same universe apart from the listed above, but I've not read them. Some of them, I think are like some kind of "spin-off" with characters from the first novel.

[headquarters]

I've recently read two novels about the post-apoc backround, one of them discovered thanks to this forum. The first one is "The road", by Cormac McCarthy. Strangely I was planning to buy it trough Amazon after reading a recommendation from Kato but while I was bored in the queue of the supermarket I realized that the unknown novel exposed in one desk near the cashdesk and titled “La carretera” was, in fact, “The road”. Ah! The fate and its own strange mechanisms...Ok, here you have the original thread:
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=142
And, as Kato stated, 5 out of 5 mushrooms clouds... Only small advice: Don’t expect to find any explanation about the cause of the apocalypse. Just read the book, suffer (and enjoy).

And, as a “bonus track”, the trailer of the film. Personally I’ve found it too long and it seems that the director has added some clues about the cause of the end of the civilitzation...so...only for precaution...read the book before see the story trough the eyes of others...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbLgszfXTAY

The other book I’ve read is “Wasteland, stories of the apocalypse”, about 20 short stories, gathered together, all of them playing with the end of the civilitzation. This book is more in the sci-fi genre. Some of its stories are settled far away in the future, thousands of years after the collapse. Others are about the collapse process itself. It’s possible you will find here some story you have previously read. In my case, I’ve found one story from Orson Scott Card and its book “The Folk of the Fringe”.
A recommendation: “When Sysadmins ruled the Earth”.

The links to Amazon for more information:

http://www.amazon.com/Wastelands-Stories-Apocalypse-Stephen-King/dp/1597801054

http://www.amazon.com/Road-Cormac-McCarthy/dp/0307265439


Cormac McCarthy is an excellent writer - I have read several of his books and just swalllow hard sometimes -he can get to you .

great books

[Marc]

The imminent film adaptation about "The Road" spurred me to read the book before the premiere of the movie.

[headquarters]

The imminent film adaptation about "The Road" spurred me to read the book before the premiere of the movie.

the border trilogy ,child of God and Blood Meridian .

Not quite opostapocalyptic - but as I said -gripping good reads.

[Marc]

Thanks HQ. I will add them to my list.

[Raellus]

I loved The Road so much, as soon as I finished it, I rushed out and bought Blood Meridian. That was well over a year ago and I haven't managed to finish it. It's beautifully written but it is so unrelentingly bloody- and almost pointlessly so- that I just can't bring myself to pick it up to finish. I'm not particularly squeemish, but all of the central characters in the book are brutal types with no apparent redeaming qualities, murdering their way across the American southwest.

Perhaps if I finish it, there will be some degree of redemption at the end.

[Kellhound]

Nothing by David Drake yet?
Besides his Hammer's Slammers series (sometimes irregular in quality), I recommend Redliners, where a group of "burned out" front-line soldiers from a war against the aliens is sent to babysit a bunch of "forced colonists".

Another good one is Falkenbergs Legion, from Jerry Pournelle. The US and USSR join to form the CoDominium, stop technological advance, and set to colonize new worlds.

Also liked two series by John Ringo: Into the looking glass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_of_the_Space_Bubble) (and it's space mushrooms from the second novel onward :D ), and the "Posleen War series" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldenata). Maybe too American centered (logically), but fun. I haven't read yet Watch on the Rhine (http://baencd.thefifthimperium.com/11-UntotheBreachCD/UntotheBreachCD/Watch%20on%20the%20Rhine/index.htm), where the German must face the option of rejuvenating former Waffen SS troops to fight against the alien invaders. Sounds interesting.

I must mention Doomfarers of Coramonde too, if only for the rescue mission to Hell. :D

[Caradhras]

Children of the Dust : Louise Lawrence. Story of 3 generations of survivors after a nuclear war in the UK.



Just read this - very good imo, written in mid-80s so gives a real feel for the time even if it has inaccuracies.

[Marc]

This weekend I’ve finished The Man in the High Castle, by Philip K Dick, thanks to a recommendation from an old friend. Perhaps many of you have read it. If not, it’s a good book, so I recommend it to you, too. The story is set in 1962, in a world where the Axis has won the Second World War and the former US have been divided between Japan and Germany. Here you have an interesting wiki article about the book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle

[headquarters]

I have finished one and halfway through the other -both good reads.

1.Alas Babylon : One of the best and one of the first to deal with our specific brand of apocalypse -nuclear war .It seems realistic,down to earth and it is well researched.The plot is good and the characters believable and interesting.A small town in the US survives the initial exchange.How to survive the aftermath is the main story .It is packed with useful info on how to do things and how to prepare ,but it is not your right wingy survivalist weirdo type of book.
As a GM and a player it gives you facts and imagery that is useful for the game as well. Got the English edition of Ebay for around 8 bucks plus shipping .Totaly worth it -a classic.

2. Metro 2033 ( the novel -not the game ) : cost around 20 bucks on ebay -definently worth it for 500 pages of post apoc Kalashnikov packed mutant Moscow sci fi horror.
Only half finished and already a review ? Yes ,I feel that it is that good.A little more over the top than Alas,Babylon but still cracking good.It has an oppressive,dark feel that is relentless .Set in Moscows huge underground it portrays life in the aftermath of an al out full exchange .The surface is hazardous enviroment and you can only stay up for minutes or hours at best even with the best of suits.Central control has broken down ,and its each man for himself or in some places they have banded together making stations their "nations" and some even have "federations" where stations cooperate.It is a very Russian book ( the author is a Russian journalist ) , and as any good SCI FI it reflects on our current society -or rather on theirs up there in Russia.As our hero moves through this brutal world he encounters the future offspring of political movements ,religious fanatics,capitalists etc all condensed in the subterran tunnels .
.In typical Russian litterary tradition there are intelectual conversations between drug using survivors that huddle in abandoned stations as well as encounters with mutants,horrors hiding in the darkness,and firefights between the various factions .It all takes place in an unique enviroment imho -cant wait to see the movie -if they make it !

finished it - loved it .A bit over the top in some ways ,but thats part of the package.Recommneded .

A sequel ,Metro 2034 is supposed to be out in 2011.

[pmulcahy11b]

The book I'm reading on-and-off right now is an analysis, not a fiction book: 7 Deadly Scenarios, by Andrew F Krepinevich. It deals with 7 possible modern doomsday scenarios, all of which are plausible. The chapter names include:

1) The Collapse of Pakistan
2) War Comes to America (nuclear weapons smuggled into the US by terrorists invoking a nuclear response by the US against the country harboring the terrorists)
3) Pandemic
4) Armageddon: The Assault in Israel
5) China's "Assassin's Mace" (China's retaking of Taiwan, accompanied by worldwide cyberattacks and pre-emptive nuclear strikes on Japan, South Korea, and Guam)
6) Just Not-on-Time (The collapse of the Global Economy)
7) Who Lost Iraq? (Our invasion and later departure from Iraq leading to a regional war that destroys much of the oil-producing capacity of the Middle East for a prolonged period of time)

[Webstral]

Fireforce by Chris Cocks. If you've read Vietnam fiction and/or autobiographies, Fireforce is both similar and a welcome change. The Rhodesians fought their war on their own turf with the bare minimum of hardware and manpower. They never had a reasonable prospect of winning the war on the battlefield, but they fought very well. I can't help but think that a mentality of shortage might help the US Army do a better job. The Rhodesian experience has some useful lessons for us in Afghanistan.

Webstral

[Wereferret]

Just finished reading 'Temeraire' and now wading through 'Throne of Jade' by Naomi Novik. They're both part of an alternate-Napoleonic history where England and France both have a small aerial corps of pilots who ride domesticated dragons. The premise sounds silly, and I don't normally read fantasy but a friend loaned it to me, and I found the first chapter so well written that I just kept going. I heard Peter Jackson just optioned it for a cable miniseries in the next 5 years so the series should be coming to TV with a competent hand at the tiller.

[Raellus]

2. Metro 2033 ( the novel -not the game ) : cost around 20 bucks on ebay -definently worth it for 500 pages of post apoc Kalashnikov packed mutant Moscow sci fi horror.

Strange that this book has a very limited distribution here in the states. Amazon doesn't carry it and the sellers that do are charging over $20 for a paperback. There's already an XBOX360 game based on it but the book on which it is presumably based is nowhere to be found.

Now I really want to read it.

[headquarters]

Strange that this book has a very limited distribution here in the states. Amazon doesn't carry it and the sellers that do are charging over $20 for a paperback. There's already an XBOX360 game based on it but the book on which it is presumably based is nowhere to be found.

Now I really want to read it.

It is just recently translated to English.It might come down over the next months.
Its avaialble on internet vendor sites .

Make sure you get an English ed if your Russian / German is rusty :D

firefighst in subterran tunnels with AKs and Stechkin pistols ..nasty things with claws..future survivalist nazies...

It is packed with good stuff imho.

[Targan]

There's already an XBOX360 game based on it but the book on which it is presumably based is nowhere to be found.

Most if not all platforms, not just the Xbox 360 (I hate consoles BTW, they are ruining PC gaming). I've finished the game on the PC. very atmospheric, very Russian, really enjoyed it.

[Adm.Lee]

Devils in exile by Chuck Hogan. I snagged this off the library shelf this afternoon, and I'm already at page 120.

Neal Maven is an Iraq War vet, home in Boston, alone with two crappy jobs and a similar apartment. He meets up with a fellow vet who has a fantastic car, gobs of cash, and the girl Neal once dreamed of in high school; who recruits him for his team. Five veterans who rob drug dealers, destroy the drugs and split the money. Not just any dealers, but the distributors, so there's a lot of money involved. Then the gangs and the Feds start sniffing around, and that's as far as I've gotten....

I played in a short Merc:2000 game like this once, ca.1996, we were pulled into taking down Miami-area druglords, on behalf of a mysterious South American gentleman. I remember it got hairy when the DEA started getting close, we were the dogs bringing the bigwigs out into the open where the law could reach them. That's probably why I have the "Miami Vice" theme running through my head.

[HorseSoldier]

If you can find copies of the There Will Be War anthology series, edited by Pournelle, from the 80s and 90s they all included some post apocalyptic fiction as well as military sci-fi, some of it with a very Twilight 2000 feel to it.

[mikeo80]

A couple of suggestions to the group.

Harry Turtledove's Worldwar and Colonization series. I found these very interesting. WWII in full swing...and then the Axis and Allies find themselves in the middle of War Of The Worlds. Turtledove can get long winded at times, but I thought they were a good read.

Newt Gingrich's and William Forstchen's Civil War Trilogy

The South wins at Gettysburg, Grant still wins at Vicksburgh. Hence Grant appointed Commander of Union Armies a year before it happened IRL.

William Forstchen's Lost Regiment.

A regiment of Union soldiers being transferred via ship to the Sherman campaign in North Carolina. Instead, they end up on another planet with humans and others....and the others enjoy humans...well done!!!!

This is an eight book series. Books 4 and 5 were a little boring for me, but still good reads.

Newt Gingrich's and William Forstchen's Day of Infamy series

Japan attacks Pearl Harbor...but this time Yamamoto sends four or five Japanese Army divisions and enough oilers to re-fuel the carrier strike force to finish the job. The U.S. has to rebuild on the West Coast.

2 books so far as I know. I thought really good reads.

Eric Flint's 1632 series.

This is farther out of our normal discussion eras. A town of 3000 West Virginians is transported lock, stock and pickup trucks into Central Germany during the height of the 30 Year War. I did not know that that war cost Europe about 25% (low estimate) to 50% (high estimate) casualties. Only the Black Plague did more damage....

This series is now TWELVE books big!!!! With MORE to come. I enjoyed most of them tremendously.

Of course, I echo the sentiments about Alas, Babylon, On the Beach, Fail Safe, Starship Troopers, and many of the other books mentioned here in this thread.

[pmulcahy11b]

William Forstchen's Lost Regiment.

A regiment of Union soldiers being transferred via ship to the Sherman campaign in North Carolina. Instead, they end up on another planet with humans and others....and the others enjoy humans...well done!!!!

I'm guessing they enjoy humans as a delicacy?

[mikeo80]

I'm guessing they enjoy humans as a delicacy?

Exactly! Some of the tribes of the Tugars (AKA others) use human consumption as part of their cultural ceremonies.

GROSS OUT ALERT!!!!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!

See below...












One of the "delicacies" is to take a human captive, remove the top of the skull, pour a flamable liquid on the brain, light it up, and enjoy. While the captive is ALIVE!!!

[pmulcahy11b]

One of the "delicacies" is to take a human captive, remove the top of the skull, pour a flamable liquid on the brain, light it up, and enjoy. While the captive is ALIVE!!!

Boy, that makes Hannibal Lechter sound like an amateur!

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Exactly! Some of the tribes of the Tugars (AKA others) use human consumption as part of their cultural ceremonies.

GROSS OUT ALERT!!!!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!

See below...












One of the "delicacies" is to take a human captive, remove the top of the skull, pour a flamable liquid on the brain, light it up, and enjoy. While the captive is ALIVE!!!

(Shudders) I often wonder who things like these ever get started, I mean, I often wonder how and why people come up with ideas like these. Ugh.......:smashfrea

Chuck

[Targan]

I'm currently re-reading The Heritage Trilogy by Ian Douglas - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heritage_Trilogy . The timeline of the series starts in 2040 and the premise behind it is that the USA has withdrawn from the UN in protest at the UN trying to force a plebiscite within the southern states of the USA and the northern states of Mexico over the formation of a new Hispanic nation to be called the Aztlan Republic. The USA is still the world's dominant superpower, especially in space and on the high seas, and it is closely allied with Russia which has also withdrawn from the UN in protest at the UN's attempt to force it to negotiate with China over ownership of parts of Siberia.

One reason in particular why I like the series is that it focuses on the USMC which, in the decades before the first book starts, has been fighting for its survival as bean-counters in the US government try to win support for the Corps' disbanding. When alien artifacts are discovered on Mars and the UN tries to use military force to take over the archaeological sites on Mars the USMC gains a new lease on life by successfully countering the UN's forces and taking back control of America's Martian holdings. In the series the UN's space power is provided by the ESA, China and Japan's space agency. China is very much a world power in the series but is still no match for the US.

The premise of the series does make me chuckle a bit because it plays on the idea that the UN is out to undermine the US and make itsself into a world government (I understand that many Americans IRL take that idea pretty seriously). Anyway, the series is a good read and it provides food for thought about future roles the USMC might have in offensive operations in space or on other planets. I would urge past and present Marines and their friends and admirers to check this series out. Here is the link to the Wikipedia article on the first book in the series - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semper_Mars .

[pmulcahy11b]

(I understand that many Americans IRL take that idea pretty seriously).

I take that seriously, but in a different way. I think that the formation of nations is the second worst idea that mankind has ever come up with (the first being organized religion). I think that the ideals of original government of the US (minus slavery and discrimination against non-landowners) is the best one ever come up with, but our current government is a shadow of that. A world government, if run good and democratically, would be one of the best things for this planet.

[Dog 6]

I take that seriously, but in a different way. I think that the formation of nations is the second worst idea that mankind has ever come up with (the first being organized religion). I think that the ideals of original government of the US (minus slavery and discrimination against non-landowners) is the best one ever come up with, but our current government is a shadow of that. A world government, if run good and democratically, would be one of the best things for this planet.



not yet imo. in 100 - 150 years sure , but not now.

[Marc]

Following some old recommendations in this forum, I read “On the beach”, by Neville Shute, some months ago. I enjoyed every page of the book, no matter the author gives little margin to anticipate the logical ending. As a nice surprise, I’ve found that the plain and direct language used by Shute, makes this book and easy reading for any non-native English speakers. So, my usual visits to the English-Spanish dictionary were reduced to the minimum. In fact, I’m sure that this same direct language is one of the powerful points of the Shute’s work.

Once finished the book, I watched an Australian miniseries about it. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0219224/)
I think it’s a good, decent work, with the usual (though not needed) changes to make the characters more “TV-friendly”. Anyway, the story and the most important and shocking scenes remain nearly untouched.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I came across this on Amazon and thought it might be of some interest to some of you. Hopefully its not been posted on here before :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essential-WW-III-Books/lm/R16D16NYX345PS

[Cdnwolf]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer's_Hammer

Just re-reading this one. The first part is slow but it shows how people prepare for the end of the world and what happens to the survivors immediately after. And how easy it is to turn people on each other.

[TiggerCCW UK]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer's_Hammer

Just re-reading this one. The first part is slow but it shows how people prepare for the end of the world and what happens to the survivors immediately after. And how easy it is to turn people on each other.

I picked it and 'The Postman' up second hand a while back. Both very enjoyable reads. 'Footfall' also by Niven and Pournelle isn't too bad either.

[Legbreaker]

Leg, is that the same author who wrote the Dorsai books? I read a few of those in high school.
That would be correct, yes.
Originally "Wolf and Iron" was a short story, however he re-wrote it years later as a full blown novel after discovering his assumptions of wolf behaviour in the original story were incorrect.
The book really shows how after an unspecified world wide catastrophe (economic I think) settlements become extremely, even violently insular and only the very brave, very stupid, or very prepared brave the wilderness between settlements.

[pmulcahy11b]

I came across this on Amazon and thought it might be of some interest to some of you. Hopefully its not been posted on here before :)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essential-WW-III-Books/lm/R16D16NYX345PS

I actually have 11 out of the 13 on that list.

[TiggerCCW UK]

I actually have 11 out of the 13 on that list.

I'm sadly lagging behind at 5 of the 13. Tempted by Chieftains, but I think its a wee bit outside my budget at the moment - two wee ones are soaking up my cash :)

[Raellus]

Just finished the semi-autobiographical Vietnam War novel, Matterhorn, and it was outstanding. I highly recommend it. Not only was it incredibly powerful and moving, it helped me better understand how a depleted Marine rifle company functions (and I plan to use this in a T2K setting eventually).

[Legbreaker]

...I plan to use this in a T2K setting eventually.
The Elblag scenario? Looking forward to seeing how that pans out - very interesting situation you've detailed so far and fits in very nicely with both what we know from canon materials and the most logical extension of that.

[Sanjuro]

For anyone who enjoyed On The Beach, I can recommend any of Nevil Shute's books. My favourite is probably Ruined City; set in the Great Depression, it is the story of a banker who sets out to save a small town in return for some kindness shown to him there.
Scale up the problems involved slightly and there is a some great material there for rebuilding a town in a T2k scenario...

[HorseSoldier]

Just finished the semi-autobiographical Vietnam War novel, Matterhorn, and it was outstanding. I highly recommend it. Not only was it incredibly powerful and moving, it helped me better understand how a depleted Marine rifle company functions (and I plan to use this in a T2K setting eventually).

Matterhorn is on my to-read list (okay, along with about a hundred others) -- reviews on it seem to be universally very good. I'll probably end up with it as an audio book, though in that format it is apparently narrated by Bronson Pinchot ("Cousin Balki" from the 80s sitcom Perfect Strangers, for those who recall it), which seems like it might be a bit off-putting, though I'm assuming he doesn't do the weird Eastern European/Greek/whatever accent . . .

[Rainbow Six]

Just finished the semi-autobiographical Vietnam War novel, Matterhorn, and it was outstanding. I highly recommend it. Not only was it incredibly powerful and moving, it helped me better understand how a depleted Marine rifle company functions (and I plan to use this in a T2K setting eventually).

My other half bought me a copy of this last week so I plan to start on it fairly soon.

[Raellus]

Matterhorn was so good, I seriously considered an immediate re-read. But, due to my rather long to-read list, I decided to save the 2nd reading for at least a couple of months down the road. I hope I don't set expectations to high, but it really was the cat's meow.

@Leg: You, sir, are correct.

[James Langham]

Just finished Andy McNab's War Torn which is possibly the best military novel I've read. It's the story of an ordinary infantry platoon in Afghanistan and their wives back home. Excellent read.

[DCausey]

I just got a package from Amazon containing Red Army and First Clash based on your guys' recommendations in this thread. I'm looking forwards to reading them. :)

[Twilight2000v3MM]

http://www.blackwinter.freeservers.com/Front.htm

Heres a blast from the past........

[Adm.Lee]

Once an eagle by Anton Myrer.

An US Army officer's career, through both World Wars. Sam Damon is a mustang and a fighter, contrasted by the much-more cultured Courtney Massengale, who often ends up in the same organization. A great book for those who sympathize with the lonely professionals of the peacetime service. A friend of mine who went to West Point told me they loved that book when he was there.

There was a TV miniseries made for it about 1976, I saw some of it back when I was 8. Sam Elliott (the gravel voice of many a Western) is the star. I remembered that for a long time, and then found the book in 1993. I read it then, I just found the DVD set on Amazon for $6. So I am re-reading it now as I watch the Hollywood version (sorta butchered).

As with most historical novels, the characters are similar to Real-World people. Damon is some of Sam Woodfill and some of Robert Eichelberger. Massengale is some of Douglas MacArthur and some of his staffers.

[Adm.Lee]

Fobbit by David Abrams.

This is an attempt to be something like the Catch-22 of the Iraq War. It shifts between several characters, some good NCOs and some bad NCOs, some good officers and some (pathetic, really pathetic) officers, all in or around one of the big palace FOBs in Baghdad. It wasn't laugh-out-loud funny to me, but it had the feel of what I've read in memoirs. It felt both real and surreal to me.

The author was in the Public Affairs Office of an armored division around 2005, just like some of the characters.

One tiny bit that is sticking with me: some mystery over why troops get so many baby wipes in care packages. One FOBbit who has some can't figure it out why they keep showing up, what's he supposed to do with it? An infantryman who left his wife with a one-month-old at home takes one after rough patrols just to remind himself what a clean baby butt smells like. Then he sobs for an hour.

[Adm.Lee]

The Centurions by Jean Larteguy. This is one I read a long time ago, but just noticed isn't on this list.

It came out in 1962. The main character is a French paratroop officer, coming out of Dien Bien Phu and a Viet Minh PW camp. He forms a new parachute unit and leads them into the Algerian War. It's a classic of "muddy-boots" soldiers cutting through staff BS to get to the enemy, and perhaps losing their morals.

Basis for the Anthony Quinn movie, The Lost Command.

[Graebarde]

Fobbit by David Abrams.


One tiny bit that is sticking with me: some mystery over why troops get so many baby wipes in care packages.

Baby wipes are moisturizers and used to clean your face with. ALSO good for wiping the crotch down when you can't shower regularly.

[Panther Al]

For something a little different: Fiction, by John Ringo: "Last Centurion"

A bit of a political agenda being pushed in it, but an interesting read none the less when it comes to the "Your in the middle of indian country: you have *no* support, and only a company strong. Good Luck, you are on your own." kinda way.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I have three recommendations, one of which is non-fiction.

1. The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi - ISBN 978-1-59780-158-4

Set in a future where the oil age has come to an end. The world population has crashed and now calories are a form a currency. Agro companies intentionally engineer food to promote dependency upon said companies. Bioengineered plagues and animals dominate the landscape. The book is heavily dominated by environmental themes. Yet, there is also a Blade Runner aspect to it as well. Highly recommended for anyone interested in such things.

2. Earth Abides by George R. Stewart - ISBN 0-449-21301-3

Written in 1949 and set in the San Francisco Bay area this is a story about a survivor of an incredibly virulent pandemic. Most of humanity is dead and this is the story of the survivors. Dont let the age fool you, its still a great book.

3. All The Devils are Here - by Bethany Mclean and Joe Nocera

A recouting of events that lead to the financial crisis that swept the world in 2008. Largely non-partisan and packed with details its a fascinating read. It shows how reckless and often carelss many of the large banks had become.

[Raellus]

1. The Windup Girl by Paolo Bacigalupi - ISBN 978-1-59780-158-4

Set in a future where the oil age has come to an end. The world population has crashed and now calories are a form a currency. Agro companies intentionally engineer food to promote dependency upon said companies. Bioengineered plagues and animals dominate the landscape. The book is heavily dominated by environmental themes. Yet, there is also a Blade Runner aspect to it as well. Highly recommended for anyone interested in such things.

Good pick. I enjoyed it, although I found that it dragged a little in places. I could easily see calories becoming currency in the T2K world- Krakow kind of does this with its food chit program. I can't believe I didn't make that connection when I was in the process of reading the book- I usually link nearly everything to T2K in some way.


2. Earth Abides by George R. Stewart - ISBN 0-449-21301-3

Written in 1949 and set in the San Francisco Bay area this is a story about a survivor of an incredibly virulent pandemic. Most of humanity is dead and this is the story of the survivors. Dont let the age fool you, its still a great book.


I couldn't finish Earth Abides. It wasn't a bad book (I stopped about 2/3 in) but it just didn't consistently capture my interest.

[TrailerParkJawa]

Good pick. I enjoyed it, although I found that it dragged a little in places. I could easily see calories becoming currency in the T2K world- Krakow kind of does this with its food chit program. I can't believe I didn't make that connection when I was in the process of reading the book- I usually link nearly everything to T2K in some way.



I couldn't finish Earth Abides. It wasn't a bad book (I stopped about 2/3 in) but it just didn't consistently capture my interest.

I had to read Earth Abides at SJSU so begin to end was mandatory cause we had daily discussions in class. :)

I agree Windup Girl might drag in spots or leaves a few threads hanging. I think this book, like alot of sci-fi, is thinly veiled social critique of today's world. I've started reading the other books by the author and many are very dark visions of the future and the dominance of seed companies.

I did see T2k parrallels but I think the book largely stands on its own in the post oil age. What I loved most is how richly detailed that world is. I had to read this book in small chunks just to absord those details.

[raketenjagdpanzer]

Have we mentioned Pat Frank's Alas, Babylon in this thread? 'cause, that one.

[Targan]

I've just finished reading From the Ashes, the prequel novel to the film Terminator Salvation, by Timothy Zahn. It's published by Titan Books, ISBN 9781848560864. I didn't have high hopes for the novel before I started reading it but I've been pleasantly surprised.

*SPOILERS*

The story of the novel follows two parallel paths that converge part way through, one about John Connor and his highly effective Resistance unit and the other about a USMC sergeant who had been on active duty near the US-Mexico border when Judgement Day occurred. The novel is set in the ruins of Los Angeles 10 years after the nukes flew. The Marine sergeant has taken on the duty of protecting a group of refugees in a partly-ruined housing or office complex.

Tim Zahn obviously has some concept of how military units operate and his descriptions of irregular urban warfare against Skynet's forces are really pretty good. There's a lot of emphasis on scrounging for usable supplies, repairing old and much abused vital equipment and setting up caches and fall-back positions.

If any of you happen upon this novel in your travels, I can recommend it. It has a definite T2K feel, just with the threat of implaccable, minigun-toting, deaths-head metal skeleton monsters thrown in.

[Olefin]

Definite recommendation for

The Texas-Israeli War: 1999

Its a 1974 science-fiction novel by Jake Saunders and Howard Waldr that I found at a used bookstore in LA about ten years ago.

Reads very much like Twilight 2000 with a scenario that has the US breaking apart during a WWIII scenario that has the world powers fighting with biological and chemical warfare instead of nukes (only a few left after a disarmament treaty). Right down to factories shutting down, planes disappearing because of a lack of spare parts, huge population losses due to the war and its effects.

I highly recommend it for those running a campaign - some great ideas in that book.

[Neal5x5]

There are many PA and military fiction titles available on the Amazon Kindle that major publishers probably would have rejected because it's too small a niche market or because of other prejudices. The titles are generally inexpensive and some are very good. The downside is that some could have used more proofreading or editorial input, However, if you're willing to overlook occasional misspellings and grammatical mistakes there are quite a few gems to be had.

Here's a list of some of those I've read in the past year that I would recommend

WWIII Fiction
Chieftains by Bob Forrest-Webb – A BAO version of Team Yankee. Well written and believable.
Invasion by DC Alden – A unified Middle East caliphate invades Europe and Great Britain. A little far fetched but worth reading.
Invasion: Alaska by Vaughn Heppner – Takes place in twenty years and has elements of sci-fi but reads like Red Storm Rising. One of the best on the list.
Invasion: California by Vaughn Heppner – A sequel to Invasion: Alaska but even better. Highly recommend this one.
The Blast of War by Adam Yoshida – A fictional history of a near-future conflict within the USA and between the West and China. Reads like Keegan or Ambrose.
A Land War in Asia by Adam Yoshida – Sequel to Blast of War.
A Thousand Points of Light by Adam Yoshida – Sequel to Land War in Asia, conclusion of the trilogy.
Dawn of the Tiger by Gus Frazer – Near-future invasion of Australia by China.
The Third World War by Humphrey Hawksley – China vs. Russia vs. the West. Not a happy ending.
Line of Control by Mainak Dhar – Conventional and nuclear conflict between Pakistan/China and India. Good read for a different perspective.

WWIII/SHTF Fiction (Cosy Apocalypse)
Long Voyage Back by Luke Rhinehart – People with a yacht try and avoid the effects of a nuclear war.
The Living Will Envy the Dead by Christopher Nuttall – Nuclear war as seen by survivors in a small mountain town.
Then Came War by Jacquelin Druga – Survivors of a trainwreck emerge to find that the US has been attacked and invaded.

SHTF Fiction
Half Past Midnight by Jeff Bracken – EMP survival
77 Days in September by Ray Gorham – EMP survival.
Before the Door by Ruth Godwin – Post-nuclear survival of a young girl.
Fifty Falling Stars by Wesley Higginbotham – Civil unrest, nukes, dogs and cats living together. One of the better ones.
Final Dawn by Mike Kraus – EMP and nuke survival.
Land (Stranded) by Theresa Shaver – EMP survival, kind of a young-adult story.
The Jakarta Pandemic by Steven Konkoly – Pandemic (duh) survival for a family in the suburbs. Well written.

Post Apoc Fiction
The Old Man and the Wasteland by Nick Cole – A kind of Old Man and the Sea for PA buffs. More sci-fi than others on the list but worth reading.

Zombie Apocalypse
Tooth and Nail by Craig DiLouie – A platoon of infantry in New York City during an outbreak of a zombie infection. Original and militarily accurate.
Infection by Craig DiLouie –A group of survivors with a Bradley IFV attempt to escape Pittsburg and reach a survivor group. Very original zombies and story.
The Killing Floor by Craig DiLouie – A sequel to Infection.
Plague of the Dead by Z.A. Recht – Marines and sailors escape a zombie infested Middle East to return home only to find zombies here. A second plot line revolving around a potential cure.
Thunder and Ashes by Z.A. Recht – Sequel to Plague of the Dead

Real Combat Stories
House to House by John Bruning – Memoirs of a mechanized infantry sergeant’s experience in Iraq, with a focus on Fallujah. Made me say “holy ****!” a lot.
Outlaw Platoon by Sean Parnell – Memoirs of an infantry platoon LT in an exposed OP in Afghanistan.
Sniper: A Novel by Nicolai Lilin – I know it says novel but if this isn’t somebody’s actual experiences fighting in the Chechen wars, I’ll eat my hat. Brutal combat and gut-wrenching experiences.

[Targan]

Neal5x5, I've read House to House by John Bruning and enjoyed it. The author is not what you'd describe as a humble man but I guess if you've been through what he has you're entitled to be proud of yourself.

The 3 books you've listed under Real Combat Stories probably belong in the OT - Book (Non Fiction) Review/Recommendations Thread. That's got some great reading suggestions in it if you haven't looked at it before.

[Adm.Lee]

An Army epidemiologist is sent to Alaska to find out if some corpses emerging from the permafrost still carry the 1918 "Spanish flu." The corpses are coming from a remote island, said to be haunted by the souls of the Russian immigrants who died there, and there's a historical mystery to be uncovered.

The story is tightly written, there are some supernatural elements, but they could be real or imagined, and they do not overshadow the story that it becomes a ghost story in itself. The military elements are present, but not a key structure. I felt like the author had a little confusion, or maybe just loose writing, between the National Guard and the Coast Guard elements near the end.

Spoiler: Grand Duchess Anastasia Romanov escaped from Siberia, protected by Rasputin's blessing, and is the sole survivor on the island. The jewels that she carried away are part of the mystery. A silver cross, given to her by Rasputin, is her protection.

This could come into a T2k game in several ways.
1. TEOTWAKI brought about by a re-appearance of the influenza that killed millions of people in 1918, then burned out. I've seen an estimate that 20% of the world's population was infected (or was that exposed?).

2. In a 'canon' T2k setting, American or Soviet troops in Alaska go to scout this island, and could uncover its secrets, just like "King's Ransom."

3. If running a Twilight:1918-19 game like I have done (and likely will do again), the Romanov element is an obvious plot device, just like "King's Ransom." This could also have the threat of the deadly flu hanging overhead.

4 stars (of 5), a good read on a sleepless night.

[Littlearmies]

I have a couple of suggestions:

Opening Moves by Colin Gee.
A rather chunky book set just after the end of WWII in Europe, positing that the Soviet response to the Manhattan Project is to fuel up the T34s and start rolling Westward beyond the Elbe. So it pits the Red Army against British and American forces in Europe. I have to say, this didn't grab me at all - it is written in the "Red Storm Rising" manner but character development is pretty lacklustre and the author seems to be writing up AARs from some wargame campaign. There is a whole series of these under the "Red Gambit" label.

The Red Effect by Harvey Black
This is a much slimmer volume and is set in 1983 - again the story is told from viewpoints on both sides of the Iron Curtain (doesn't that expression just leave you nostalgic for what seems a simpler time and place?) in the period leading up to WWIII. I was again a bit disappointed with this book - it is only 255 pages long and ends just as the action starts - I felt a bit short changed. But what is there is done fairly well - apparently it is the first of a trilogy.

[kota1342000]

Hmm...Neal I think you may have sold me on the kindle...

[Cdnwolf]

I've read the "Ender's Game" and the four sequels that "complete" the cycle intitated in the first novel: "Speaker for the Dead", "Xenocide" and "Children of the mind" . Raellus, I recommend all of them to you. And forget about "targetted at young adults" with the sequels though I must warn you: they are not about the war, though some of their consecuences are in the background of the plot.

As Targan said, there are other novels from Orson Scott Card set in the same universe apart from the listed above, but I've not read them. Some of them, I think are like some kind of "spin-off" with characters from the first novel.

FYI they are finally turning Enders Game into a movie...

[Panther Al]

The Forever Engine - Frank Chadwick

Well... I got my hands on an ARC of this book, and read through it over the past few hours.


Not too shabby. Its seriously steampunkish, mixed with a little alt-history. In a way.

Its told via first person, with the main Character, Jack Fargo, being a former special operator turned historian, and a cast of historical and made up characters to support the bad guys and the good guys.

Now, after this point, we have da spoilers, so be aware:















Right.

It starts off with a bang - literally. It barely gets past the first 10 pages when the action starts, and sends our hero - through a weapon that didn't work as designed, and tore a hole in time and space, back into the late Victorian Era.

Just not the one we know of.

Here in this era, we have a strong flavour of Space 1889 coming into play, with Liftwood and Ether Propellers all making an appearance, as well as travel to mars being mentioned more than once, though it doesn't play out in the book. I honestly, would not be surprised if some of the characters, be it principle or otherwise, was earlier mentioned in one of the Space 1889 stories.

Our Hero has a rough time of it to start, being an American in England: An England that is about to go to war with America according to the press, without documents and crazy story about being from the future. Through the actions of a third party though, he is shown to be relatively truthful, at least enough so that it is decided that his co-operation would be usefull in determining who was behind the time travel, as the explosion that brought him back wasn't the only one, and there is that little matter of a bloodthirsty snatch team being sent right away to grab him by a mysterious Mr. X in London proper. That sort of thing just isn't done don't you know? A number of historical characters are brought into play, mostly as background, though one is a principle character, though unless you are a geek like me, you won't know know who he is till the end of the book.

They travel through Bavaria, in the middle of October, and the bad guys make another snatch attempt, interrupting a local festival in the City of Munich. Again, that just isn't done - and the team gets additional help in tracking down the now known location of Mr. X.

Of course, things never go that easy: They are promised assistance from a squad of scouts by the Turks, who, alas, wasn't told that they was being offered, so a bad case of blue and blue happens. Which leads to probably the best line where the British Captain, shaken by the results of the BonB, asks what is the best way to avoid it. The answer? "Career change was working pretty well for me until today."

A series of further hiccups results in the capture of our hero by Mr. X, who claims he can return him home, but as the Hero discovers what that claim is about - and worth, the fellow hero's, said to be dead, who turn out not; stage a rescue, leading to a final battle between Mr X and the gang of Hero's.

Pretty much standard fare for most books like this, but it is rather enjoyable, a easy read, and all in all worth the money to read.

Now, I tried to keep spoiler free: Mr. X is revealed fairly early, and there is a very good twist at the end, that twists a few more ways than most twists out there. But all said and done, this is a good one.

The ARC is available now, via the Baen.com ebooks page.

[Adm.Lee]

I could have mentioned these a while ago, was just reminded of them recently.

Punk's War, Punk's fight, Punk's wing, all by Ward Carroll
Ghostrider One by Gerry Carroll

Not exactly T2k-ish, but of the era. All are about Tomcat crews, shooting off carriers and doing "that pilot stuff!"

[Adm.Lee]

Not a post-ww3 setting, but pre-ww2, still nearly apocalyptic. I never read this one before, I had a bad experience with a Hemingway short story, probably in high school. I still don't like his writing style, but 2/3 through the book and I can tolerate it.

The T2k-related stuff: the book's central figure is a demolition specialist, sent behind fascist lines to blow a bridge in support of a conventional infantry attack. He links up with two partisan bands, and there is our story. This reads like a textbook of guerrilla personalities and how one might ally with and lead them. If he were an SF leader or a 5th Division straggler come to town, the NPC here are just what a GM could wish for. There's a power struggle within one group, a need to convince the guerrillas to stick out their necks on a dangerous confrontation, ambush tactics, ragged mix of weaponry, enemies with technical and numerical superiority, weather and timing all to consider. Bonus: a romantic interest for the protagonist, with whom to dream of life away from the fighting.

I suspect I heard somewhere that this book is, or should be, on several military/professional "to read" lists.

Downside: as I said, Hemingway's way of writing bothers me, some reviewers say it's because he is modelling Spanish styles of speaking/writing. Some might have trouble getting past that the protagonist is an ally of the Communists (he seems to be a Socialist, not an actual Communist). It's also pretty long-- I am listening to it on CDs in my car, and there are 16 CDs in the box.

[unkated]

Not a post-ww3 setting, but pre-ww2, still nearly apocalyptic. I never read this one before, I had a bad experience with a Hemingway short story, probably in high school. I still don't like his writing style, but 2/3 through the book and I can tolerate it.

Downside: as I said, Hemingway's way of writing bothers me, some reviewers say it's because he is modelling Spanish styles of speaking/writing. Some might have trouble getting past that the protagonist is an ally of the Communists (he seems to be a Socialist, not an actual Communist). It's also pretty long-- I am listening to it on CDs in my car, and there are 16 CDs in the box.

Admiral -

Don't let the politics get in the way of your enjoyment.

Do recall that pre-WW2, the communists were considered the lesser of two evils compared to Fascism, then in control of Germany and Italy, and seeking to control Spain (and, at the time, gaining influence in several nations of Central Europe, but that isn't part of Spain's story). In Spain, in several quarters, the Russians were considered heroes for being willing to provide equipment and some volunteers, when the western democracies did nothing to counter German and Italian aid and troops in Spain.

Hemingway was in Spain as a correspondent; he saw and heard some of this first hand.

If you liked For Whom the Bell Tolls (or at least this period), stop by your local library and look for novels by Alan Furst.

Alan Furst writes about spies and intelligence operatives or people who become resistance in early WW2 or the dark period leading up to WW2. To me, his books have the dark feeling of a film noir.

Spies of Warsaw or The Polish Officer are a good starting choices. Spies of Warsaw follows a French military attache as he spies on Germany in 1938 (the BBC did this as a miniseries if you'd rather watch it); The Polish Officer is about a Polish Officer who goes underground and becomes a resistance fighter starting in 1939.

Uncle Ted

[Targan]

Hemingway was in Spain as a correspondent; he saw and heard some of this first hand.

Hemmingway also served as an ambulance driver in Italy at the end of WWI where he was badly wounded by mortar fire and decorated for gallantry. He knew war.

[.45cultist]

[QUOTE=Adm.Lee;68937]Not a post-ww3 setting, but pre-ww2, still nearly apocalyptic. I never read this one before, I had a bad experience with a Hemingway short story, probably in high school. I still don't like his writing style, but 2/3 through the book and I can tolerate it.

The T2k-related stuff: the book's central figure is a demolition specialist, sent behind fascist lines to blow a bridge in support of a conventional infantry attack. He links up with two partisan bands, and there is our story. This reads like a textbook of guerrilla personalities and how one might ally with and lead them. If he were an SF leader or a 5th Division straggler come to town, the NPC here are just what a GM could wish for. There's a power struggle within one group, a need to convince the guerrillas to stick out their necks on a dangerous confrontation, ambush tactics, ragged mix of weaponry, enemies with technical and numerical superiority, weather and timing all to consider. Bonus: a romantic interest for the protagonist, with whom to dream of life away from the fighting.

I suspect I heard somewhere that this book is, or should be, on several military/professional "to read" lists.

Downside: as I said, Hemingway's way of writing bothers me, some reviewers say it's because he is modelling Spanish styles of speaking/writing. Some might have trouble getting past that the protagonist is an ally of the Communists (he seems to be a Socialist, not an actual Communist). It's also pretty long-- I am listening to it on CDs in my car, and there are 16 CDs in the box.[/QUOTE
He had a fondness for whiskey, "The Killers" had to have been written drunk.

[rcaf_777]

Hemmingway also served as an ambulance driver in Italy at the end of WWII where he was badly wounded by mortar fire and decorated for gallantry. He knew war.

It was WWI not WWII, during WWII he was a war corespondent, and was almost convicted for breaching the Geneva Convention as he was caught leading company of French resistance, which I am guessing is a no no was he was classified non combatant

[pmulcahy11b]

It was WWI not WWII, during WWII he was a war corespondent, and was almost convicted for breaching the Geneva Convention as he was caught leading company of French resistance, which I am guessing is a no no was he was classified non combatant

It wasn't WWI or II, but the Spanish Civil War, IIRC.

[rcaf_777]

It wasn't WWI or II, but the Spanish Civil War, IIRC.

No it wasn't

Hemingway was an ambalance driver in World War I in Italy, he then went on covered the war in Spain. He then wrote for whom the bells tolls and then went on to cover World War II. And got into trouble

There is a movie about his World War I experience, 1996, In Love and War, starting Chris O'Donnell

[Legbreaker]

http://www.biography.com/people/ernest-hemingway-9334498#life-in-europe
Military Experience

In 1918, Hemingway went overseas to serve in World War I as an ambulance driver in the Italian Army. For his service, he was awarded the Italian Silver Medal of Bravery, but soon sustained injuries that landed him in a hospital in Milan.When the United States entered World War II in 1941, Hemingway served as a correspondent and was present at several of the war's key moments, including the D-Day landing.
That should put an end to that I think.

[Targan]

It was WWI not WWII, during WWII he was a war corespondent, and was almost convicted for breaching the Geneva Convention as he was caught leading company of French resistance, which I am guessing is a no no was he was classified non combatant

Yes, WWI. WWII was a bloody typo. Sorry.

[Adm.Lee]

Unkated--no, Robert Jordan's politics aren't really a turn-off for me, but I thought I'd warn other readers here.

I have read at least two Furst novels-- Spies of the Balkans and Spies of Warsaw.

I've let the novel lie for a few days over the holiday weekend, so I don't know if he makes it to the bridge, or gets to a semblance of happily ever after with Maria or not. I suspect neither of the above, but am willing to wait until Monday or so to find out.

[Tombot]

Since most relevant Books were mentioned, Comics came to my mind:

"Vic and Blood" by Richard Corben
based on Harlan Ellisons "a boy and his dog"/the movie with young Don Johnson (only good one from him, as much as i remember)

& "Mutantworld/Son of Mutantworld"
by Corben as well

"Jeremiah"-Series by Herman
NOT the later TV-Series with had nothing to do with it, except for the title and some names

Some comic-short-storys from "Heavy Metal/Metal Hurlant"-Magazine, especially one called "Good bye, soldier" (in which a patrol of NBC-wearing NATO-soldiers walk through a ruined city (Berlin? Paris ?), and get into a situation with an "automatic
sniper"..)

"Hombre"-Series by Segura/Ortiz
Another "spagetti-western" approach to the apocalypse.

Most of these are pretty old...

[Rainbow Six]

Some comic-short-storys from "Heavy Metal/Metal Hurlant"-Magazine, especially one called "Good bye, soldier" (in which a patrol of NBC-wearing NATO-soldiers walk through a ruined city (Berlin? Paris ?), and get into a situation with an "automatic sniper"..)

That reminds me of a one shot story I read when I was a kid in a British sci fi comic called 2000AD. The opening premise (iirc - it was a long time ago) was very similar but the story established that the patrol were actually the last survivors of a global war - everyone else on the planet was dead. They come under fire from a sniper who picks them off one by one (one of them tries to reason with the sniper by calling out that they (including the sniper) are the last survivors and it's pointless to carry on fighting. That doesn't work). The last one is mortally wounded but makes it to the sniper's position where he discovers that the sniper is long dead but his weapon is in an automatic mode and is still fully functioning. The last frame was the of the mortally wounded soldier looking at the sniper's skeleton and realizing that humanity was doomed.

As I'm on the subject of 2000AD it also featured Invasion, which has been discussed here before, and Rogue Trooper, which I don't think has.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion!_%282000_AD%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_Trooper

[Tombot]

@RainbowSix:
2000AD sounds interesting, gonna hunt it down. Thanks for the hints. Usefull!

[Adm.Lee]

Anyone know anything about these?

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25268640-world-war-1990?from_search=true

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/28532687-world-war-1990 "The Third World War Continues

In Europe, NATO assembles an army for the liberation of Eastern Europe...
In the Pacific, the US Navy takes the war to the Soviet Far East...

In Britain, the SAS plots a daring rescue of Polish dissident Lech Walesa...

In Moscow, the doves, led by Mikhail Gorbachev, try to derail the Hawk's plan for nuclear war."

Sounds like it's something somewhat up our alley. Too bad (for me) they only appear to be in ebook format.

[The Dark]

Some of Greg Rucka's graphic novel work may be of interest, in particular Whiteout and Queen & Country. The former follows a Deputy Marshal assigned to investigate a murder in Antarctica, while the latter is about a member of the Special Operations Section of SIS. Each story arc is 3-5 issues and covers a single operation. A movie of Q&C has been in development hell for about five years now.

[dragoon500ly]

Some oldies but goodies...

Black May, the Epic Story of the Allied Defeat of the German U-Boats in May, 1943. By Michael Gannon. A decent, in-depth look at the Battle of the Atlantic during the key convoy battles, excellent research into the development of ASW and the code breaking efforts. Five Stars!

Gallipoli, 1915, by Tim Travers. Excellent overview of the campaign.

First Blood, the Battle of the Kasserine Pass 1943, by Charles Whiting. Good overview of the fight, although more of a coffee table read.

A Time for Trumpets, the Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge, by Charles MacDonald. Perhaps the most in-depth study of this campaign as well as one long read! Worth the time to read, but set aside several weekends.

The Battle of the Huertgen Forest, by Charles MacDonald. One of the better studies of this "forgotten campaign". A tad dated but excellent coverage.

[ArmySGT.]

Try Last of the Dog Team (https://www.amazon.com/Last-Dog-Team-William-Johnstone/dp/0786015713/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1484958277&sr=1-1&keywords=last+of+the+dog+team) by William Johnstone.

All sex and violence set in the 60 and 70s Viet Nam and Africa. A fictional SOF operators and mercenaries tale.

[Adm.Lee]

Can't believe I hadn't brought this one up, I read it a long time ago. Like, when I was still running T2k and the USSR was a real thing. I read at least one of the stories in Pournelle's mil-sci-fi "There will be war" anthologies, and then this volume came out in 1989.

It's a collection of short stories in the Irish village of Barley Cross. Some catastrophe has happened-- left largely undefined-- and all the men in the world are no longer fertile. Except one, it seems, and he's a British Army sergeant who's deserted with his Chieftain. He rumbles into the village and the village council sets him up as Military Advisor, moves him into an old castle, and then they find out his, er, "superpower". :rolleyes:

How far will they go to try to re-start the human species?

For T2k: Hardly a battle scene to be had, it's a lot more about what decisions people make under TEOTAWKI situations. There's no outside government or other institutions, marauders dispute the roads. It could easily be a solitaire game of T2k, just far from the nukes.

I think this and John Ringo's Kildar series are about half of why I'd like to run a "settling down" game in T2k someday.

[recon35]

What, no love for Richard Austin's The Guardians series? True, they're no literary greats, but they are basically a novelized T2K campaign. They can be mined for campaign ideas as the premise is a four person team works to rebuild the US after a nuke exchange.

[recon35]

double post.

[The Dark]

One author I've been enjoying recently is Myke Cole, who has written five novels (with the proofs of the sixth having just been finished) - Control Point, Fortress Frontier, Breach Zone, Gemini Cell, and Javelin Rain are published, with Siege Line soon to come out. They're set in a near-contemporary world where magic has been discovered. Many of the talented serve in the military, while those with talents the US government considers forbidden are covertly assigned to a PMC for special missions on another world. The first novel won the Compton Crook award as the best first English-language SF/F/H novel of the year. The books are a pair of trilogies, with the second trilogy being a prequel to the first trilogy. Cole himself did three tours in Iraq (two as a contractor and one as a DoD civilian) and is a Lieutenant in the USCGR while also working for the NYPD and is one of the cyber analysts on the TV show Hunted.

[Targan]

One author I've been enjoying recently is Myke Cole, who has written five novels (with the proofs of the sixth having just been finished) - Control Point, Fortress Frontier, Breach Zone, Gemini Cell, and Javelin Rain are published, with Siege Line soon to come out.

I bought Control Point and got about half way through the novel before I just couldn't continue reading it. That's rare for me. Usually even if a novel really doesn't do it for me I'll read it through to the end.

[Raellus]

I just finished, Our War: A Novel, by Craig DiLouie, about a modern-day American civil war (published 2019).

It probably wouldn't help much with classic v1-2.2 timelines, coming from the pre-internet era when the U.S.A. wasn't nearly as polarized politically, but it could be pretty inspirational for a CONUS-based campaign set in a more up-to-date or near future timeline.

In the book, the president (named Marsh) is impeached and refuses to step down. He's supported by numerous right-leaning militias, and opposed by various "Lib" militias. Both sides consider the other "rebels". The military is attempting to stay neutral. The novel is set in a besieged Indianapolis, a blue city in a red state. The main characters are a pair of siblings, separated and fighting on opposite sides of the conflict, a Canadian UNICEF worker, and an ad-hoc team of journalists (a left-leaning local, a Brit with the Guardian, and a freelance French photographer).

In many ways, it reminds me of the Bosnia conflict transposed to the United States. It's quite believable in some regards, but the author's grip of military tactics is pretty weak, and some of the militia compositions strike me as a bit fanciful, to say the least (The Last Angels are presented as take-no-prisoners American [Christian] Taliban, the Free Women are an all-female militia, the Indie 300 are all-black, the Rainbow Warriors, all gay). The writing's not bad, if occasionally pedestrian.

The author is more sympathetic to the Liberal coalition, but the right-leaning "bad guys" are not too cartoonishly evil (with one notable exception).

Anyhow, it got me thinking about the plausibility of a second American Civil War, and inspired me to start reading a book about a more modern civil war, Anthony Beevor's, The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War, 1936-1939 (non-fiction).

-

[Raellus]

I'm sure that most of you have read Tom Clancy's "novel of WWIII", Red Storm Rising by now. If not, it's worth your time.

I first read it at age 15. I last read it about 10 years ago. On a whim, I picked it up again a couple of weeks ago for another read-through.

The follow "review" contains SPOILERS:

Likes:

The set-pieces are really good, especially the Soviet capture of Iceland. I know that the book was inspired by Clancy and Larry Bond playing wargames (using the Harpoon system). I wonder how much of the set-piece battles was modelled on the Harpoon campaign and how much was the product of pure invention.

I appreciated the build-up to the war a lot more as an adult (I skipped those parts as a teenager). It seemed pretty plausible and was generally well-written.

The Soviet antagonists aren't too cartoonish. Some of them are downright sympathetic.

I thought that the submarine fight scenes were very well done. The surface ASW bits were pretty good too.

Dislikes:

The one set-piece that didn't quite work for me was the "Frisbees in Dreamland" episode. I liked the idea of targeting the Soviet Mainstay AWACS using stealth aircraft. IIRC, the F-19 used Sparrows for the kill, but I wonder if HARM or ALAARM would work against aerial targets. The latter would require no radar guidance, so they wouldn't trigger radar/threat warning receivers. Anyway, the part that I didn't like was that on the same mission, the titular F-19 was also tasked with lasing a bridge for a LGB strike. I found that super unrealistic. No one in their right mind would task the same aircraft with two vital missions. If the F-19 got shot down or damaged attempting the first mission, it couldn't perform the second. Silly, IMHO.

I can't fault him for this, but Clancy also got the stealth fighter way wrong. He calls it an attack fighter, but gives it air-to-air capability and afterburners. He also describes it with fixed external weapons pylons instead of an internal weapons bay. The former is not nearly as stealthy. Also, it's a two-seater (that's forgivable).

IMHO, Clancy really overestimated the ability of NATO aircraft to operate behind enemy lines. He gives NATO air superiority over the front on day one of the war, completely ignoring the sheer numerical superiority of the Red Airforce. More egregiously, IMHO, Clancy seemed to think that Soviet SAMs and AAA wouldn't be a significant problem for NATO strike aircraft. No Soviet fuel depot, bridge, artillery battery, tank farm, or HQ is safe from airstrikes during the war. NATO is never in danger of running out of combat aircraft.

Conversely, in Clancy's telling, NATO SAMs are super effective. Soviet tactical airpower and strike capabilities and effectiveness are sharply curtailed as a result. IRL, the Soviets had many more SAMs than NATO and, qualitatively, many of them were on par, if not better than their Western counterparts.

A Belgian brigade counterattacks and stops two Soviet Category A TDs during the attempted breakthrough at Alfeld. No offense to any Belgians out there, but just look at the respective TOEs, c.1986. I mean, it's possible, but highly unlikely.

"Three men in a jeep" (with a TOW) is, IMHO, totally OP in the book. Apparently NATO's soft-skinned mobile AT teams are immune to Soviet artillery. More on that below.

Early on in the book, Clancy mentions the Soviets' comparative superiority in artillery, but then pretty much dismisses it once the war starts. NATO artillery always gets the better of the Red Army guns and rockets. Any time Soviet artillery is mentioned after the build up, it's getting destroyed by airstrikes or counterbattery fire (and in one friendly fire incident, drops a vital bridge that the Soviets are trying to capture). I guess the only way Clancy and Bond could rationalize a NATO land victory was by nerfing Soviet artillery (and omitting the rest of the WTO- see below).

I may have missed it, but no WTO units are mentioned as participating in the war. It's the USSR v. NATO. The East Germans are mentioned objecting to planned Soviet use of chemical weapons on German soil but that's it. Warsaw Pact units are conspicuously absent on the ground and in the air. I guess the Kremlin gave them all the war off?

Again, Western intel on new (at the time) Soviet aircraft was incomplete, but the SU-27 would have been a better choice than the MiG-29 for the defense of the captured Icelandic airbases, due to the former's superior range and radar. He also apparently didn't know about both aircraft's infrared search and track systems, which would have given them an edge in engagements where "radar-silence" was being observed (these feature prominently in the book).

The romance subplot set in Iceland is cringe-worthy in several respects. The Air Force weatherman protagonist's killing of the Soviet rapists with a knife just struck me as uber-macho fantasizing. According to the very well-respected, On Killing, using a knife to kill is much more difficult psychologically (given the almost intimate proximity of killer to victim), yet the protagonists execute three Soviet prisoners with knives instead of their rifles or pistols. And shots had already been fired, so it wasn't even a stealth requirement. Rambo much?

How does the hovering Hind crew not notice the protagonist's camo clothing when he's spotted fishing. A clumsy boob-grab is enough to fool them? Silly.

And do I even need to mention the sex with a pregnant rape victim? Cringe! Men-writing-women at its worst.

Also, there's only one female combatant in the entire book. And one Asian-American. And it's the same character!

Nitpick: the names are so 1980s and vanilla: Smith, John, Mike, Ed, Garcia. Seems like very little thought or effort went into that aspect of CharGen.

Some of the dialogue is particularly stilted and unnatural. A lot of it is pretty good, though.

---

Yeah, so my dislikes list is a lot longer than my likes, but overall, it's a good read. It makes me want to play Harpoon again and, of course, gets in the T2k mood.

I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the book. What worked for you? What didn't?

-

[Adm.Lee]

I'm sure that most of you have read Tom Clancy's "novel of WWIII", Red Storm Rising by now. If not, it's worth your time.
...
I appreciated the build-up to the war a lot more as an adult (I skipped those parts as a teenager). It seemed pretty plausible and was generally well-written.


I remember getting the hardback for Christmas, 1986, so that would have been my freshman year of college. I was an ROTC cadet and taking my 3rd year of Russian. So, I *really* liked the pre-war intel and politics-- intel was one of my dream jobs. I have probably read it 3+ times, the last in July '17.


Likes:

The set-pieces are really good, especially the Soviet capture of Iceland. ...

The Soviet antagonists aren't too cartoonish. ...

I thought that the submarine fight scenes were very well done. The surface ASW bits were pretty good too.

I had Harpoon rules at the time, and solitaired a few ASW fights. All of the above were good elements to me.

Dislikes:

- Anyway, the part that I didn't like was that ... would task the same aircraft with two vital missions.

In retrospect, I agree with you on that one. Clancy liked to flash back and forth between characters, so I'm now surprised this couldn't have been 2 missions, written as separate scenes?


IMHO, Clancy really overestimated the ability of NATO aircraft to operate behind enemy lines. ...
Conversely, in Clancy's telling, NATO SAMs are super effective. ...


No argument that he may have missed the boat here. I think it was his book where the A-10s were pretty ubiquitous?


A Belgian brigade counterattacks and stops two Soviet Category A TDs during the attempted breakthrough at Alfeld. No offense to any Belgians out there, but just look at the respective TOEs, c.1986. I mean, it's possible, but highly unlikely.


Um, yeah, I'd forgotten about that. How long were they stopped?

Clancy mentions the Soviets' comparative superiority in artillery, but then pretty much dismisses it once the war starts. NATO artillery always gets the better of the Red Army guns and rockets. ... I guess the only way Clancy and Bond could rationalize a NATO land victory was by nerfing Soviet artillery.


Not something I'd paid attention to on my last read, but that does seem a little fishy.


I may have missed it, but no WTO units are mentioned as participating in the war. It's the USSR v. NATO. ...


I suspect this may have been a result of sticking to a handful of characters, and IIRC the main Soviet point-of-view character was an Army commander? If so, that could have meant he just didn't deal with WP commanders? Or, if he was a Front commander, that falls apart, since there would be 2-3 EG divisions in his command.


The romance subplot set in Iceland is cringe-worthy in several respects. The Air Force weatherman protagonist's killing of the Soviet rapists with a knife just struck me as uber-macho fantasizing. ...

How does the hovering Hind crew ...? Silly.

And do I even need to mention the sex with a pregnant rape victim? Cringe! Men-writing-women at its worst.


I would only defend the first bit: ISTR the weatherman lost his prewar fiancee/girlfriend to a rapist, so he could have been particularly enraged-- all the revenge fantasies of however many months given a chance to enact? I remember thinking the last part was cringey or a rescuer-fantasy, even at age 18. The middle bit... eh, possible?


Also, there's only one female combatant in the entire book. And one Asian-American. And it's the same character!


Is this the F-15 test pilot who shoots down satellites? It's still 1986 when it's written, what other women combatants might he have used?


Nitpick: the names are so 1980s and vanilla: Smith, John, Mike, Ed, Garcia. Seems like very little thought or effort went into that aspect of CharGen.


It's a fair cop. That's why the war movie cliche includes a Jewish guy, someone with an unspellable Polish name, the Italian guy from New York City, etc., in addition to the Texan and the smart guy. (Just don't be the next one to show off your girlfriend's picture!)


Some of the dialogue is particularly stilted and unnatural. A lot of it is pretty good, though.


Agree on both counts.


I'm interested in reading your thoughts on the book. What worked for you? What didn't?


+ I rather liked Clancy's style of cutting back and forth between several characters and points of view. It does reduce the depth of each character and their arc, but it also allows the reader to learn a lot more about the war as a whole.
(It works very well, IMO, in his thrillers, as you're seeing so many threads and wondering, "Oh, boy, how is THIS going to show up later?"

IIRC, the "main" characters were the USAF weather LT in Iceland, a USN frigate commander, and a Soviet general (Front or Army CG?). We can see the war at sea and in Iceland at the lowest level, then the main event in Germany at the highest level. I remember there are other threads, but not who or where.
+ By sticking to that high level in Germany, he avoids characters with "plot immunity"-- that F19 pilot won't get shot down on mission #3, a tank commander won't have to survive 5 tanks blowing up under them, and so forth.

- Back to the air defenses, I'm currently playing two board wargames by email, with differing conclusions on air defenses. In Red Storm, I've played about 5 scenarios, and SAMs on both sides are more planning nuisance than threat, due to both sides' having jammers and dedicated SEAD planes (NATO being a bit better at the latter). My opponent is certainly frustrated with the game's portrayal of SAMs relative to AAA and fighters. In 1985: under an iron sky, I'm playing NATO's center section, and it feels like NATO's air forces are terrified, since anything I do with them will be swarmed by MiGs or slammed by zillions of SAMs, or both. Maybe later in the first week, but on Day 4, I am way outgunned.

[Raellus]

No argument that he may have missed the boat here. I think it was his book where the A-10s were pretty ubiquitous?

Yeah, the Soviets in the book call the A-10 the "Devil's Cross" and Clancy describes the aircraft killing multiple AFVs with a single strafing run on a couple of different occasions.

Clancy also has a flight of German F-104 take out a bridge with bombs.

I reply to your wargaming experience regarding aircraft v. ADNs further on.

Um, yeah, I'd forgotten about that. How long were they stopped?

I'd have to look it up to give you an exact figure, but I think it was for a couple of days, at least- long enough, in any case, to require a reevaluation of objectives and unit mission taskings.

I suspect this may have been a result of sticking to a handful of characters, and IIRC the main Soviet point-of-view character was an Army commander? If so, that could have meant he just didn't deal with WP commanders? Or, if he was a Front commander, that falls apart, since there would be 2-3 EG divisions in his command.

That's a good point. I liked the different POVs. It was easy to follow the multiple threads. One additional nitpick is that the American ASW frigate captain goes from a major POV character to a supporting character with the introduction of the Vietnam vet ASW helicopter pilot, a little over halfway through the book.

I would only defend the first bit: ISTR the weatherman lost his prewar fiancee/girlfriend to a rapist, so he could have been particularly enraged-- all the revenge fantasies of however many months given a chance to enact? I remember thinking the last part was cringey or a rescuer-fantasy, even at age 18. The middle bit... eh, possible?

You're right. I'd forgotten that bit about the weatherman's backstory. Makes sense that he'd take out his rage on the Soviet para rapist. But he only executes the main offender. One of the Marines kills the other two EPWs by stabbing them through the neck. It seemed over-the-top to me.

Another example of cringey dialogue from the final few pages of the book. A marine general says to the pregnant rape victim, "They told me you were beautiful. I have a daughter about your age." Creepy.

Is this the F-15 test pilot who shoots down satellites? It's still 1986 when it's written, what other women combatants might he have used?

That's the one. You're right in that c.86, combat branches were still closed to women, so maybe that one of my criticisms wasn't fair.

It's a fair cop. That's why the war movie cliche includes a Jewish guy, someone with an unspellable Polish name, the Italian guy from New York City, etc., in addition to the Texan and the smart guy. (Just don't be the next one to show off your girlfriend's picture!)

:D


+ I rather liked Clancy's style of cutting back and forth between several characters and points of view. It does reduce the depth of each character and their arc, but it also allows the reader to learn a lot more about the war as a whole.
(It works very well, IMO, in his thrillers, as you're seeing so many threads and wondering, "Oh, boy, how is THIS going to show up later?"

The jumping around and different POVs worked for me too. For the kind of story he was trying to tell, that technique was pretty much a must.

He didn't really provide much of a timeline, though. So the reader kind of has to pick up on context clues and then deduce how long has passed since the last episode involved a particular character. It's still not terribly clear by the end of the book how long the war lasted. 4 weeks, six weeks, two months? Longer?

IIRC, the "main" characters were the USAF weather LT in Iceland, a USN frigate commander, and a Soviet general (Front or Army CG?). We can see the war at sea and in Iceland at the lowest level, then the main event in Germany at the highest level. I remember there are other threads, but not who or where.
+ By sticking to that high level in Germany, he avoids characters with "plot immunity"-- that F19 pilot won't get shot down on mission #3, a tank commander won't have to survive 5 tanks blowing up under them, and so forth.

Good points and, in the main, I agree. There was also a USN attack sub driver with a pretty big part.

- Back to the air defenses, I'm currently playing two board wargames by email, with differing conclusions on air defenses. In Red Storm, I've played about 5 scenarios, and SAMs on both sides are more planning nuisance than threat, due to both sides' having jammers and dedicated SEAD planes (NATO being a bit better at the latter). My opponent is certainly frustrated with the game's portrayal of SAMs relative to AAA and fighters. In 1985: under an iron sky, I'm playing NATO's center section, and it feels like NATO's air forces are terrified, since anything I do with them will be swarmed by MiGs or slammed by zillions of SAMs, or both. Maybe later in the first week, but on Day 4, I am way outgunned.

Yeah, I don't think we've seen a true modern, high intensity, conventional war between 1st world military powers in real life, so it's really difficult to play out how it would all go down. We can look at the closest thing, but I think we often draw the wrong conclusions. For example, I think a lot of people assume NATO air forces would roll over the Soviets' air defenses because of how easily the Iraqi's air-defenses were destroyed during Desert Storm.

That said, Clancy pretty much omits mention of conventional, non-radar-guided AAA in the book. All the NATO aircraft fly nap of the earth to avoid SAMs. Any Soviet radar not turned off is zapped by ARMs. IRL, over Iraq, Coalition strike pilots learned the hard way that "dumb" AAA was a much greater threat to their aircraft than radar-guided SAMs and consequently, once the Iraqi SAM networks were sufficiently degraded, very few missions were flown below 5000 feet. Clancy didn't know about that when he wrote the book, but the Israelis had learned the same thing in their various wars against their Arab neighbors, so it seems strange that this hard-earned lesson was ignored in the book.

-

[Adm.Lee]

I'd have to look it up to give you an exact figure, but I think it was for a couple of days, at least- long enough, in any case, to require a reevaluation of objectives and unit mission taskings.

Yeah, that seems a bit much, then. I'd have believed "stopped them for part of a day", or even overnight, if it happened close enough to sunset.

One additional nitpick is that the American ASW frigate captain goes from a major POV character to a supporting character with the introduction of the Vietnam vet ASW helicopter pilot, a little over halfway through the book.

Oh, yeah, I remember him now. He was useful to give his experience to the captain, but taking over the spotlight might be much.

You're right. I'd forgotten that bit about the weatherman's backstory. Makes sense that he'd take out his rage on the Soviet para rapist. But he only executes the main offender. One of the Marines kills the other two EPWs by stabbing them through the neck. It seemed over-the-top to me.

Another example of cringey dialogue from the final few pages of the book. A marine general says to the pregnant rape victim, "They told me you were beautiful. I have a daughter about your age." Creepy.

Either of those sentences sound like something one might say to a victim, but together... nah. I guess the other Marine was following the LT's lead? Over the top, yes.

He didn't really provide much of a timeline, though. So the reader kind of has to pick up on context clues and then deduce how long has passed since the last episode involved a particular character. It's still not terribly clear by the end of the book how long the war lasted. 4 weeks, six weeks, two months? Longer?

That could be a plus, since that way Clancy & Bond aren't tied too tightly to a given timeline. As the English teachers might say, the reader is allowed to infer their own timeline.

Yeah, I don't think we've seen a true modern, high intensity, conventional war between 1st world military powers in real life, so it's really difficult to play out how it would all go down. We can look at the closest thing, but I think we often draw the wrong conclusions. For example, I think a lot of people assume NATO air forces would roll over the Soviets' air defenses because of how easily the Iraqi's air-defenses were destroyed during Desert Storm.

That said, Clancy pretty much omits mention of conventional, non-radar-guided AAA in the book. All the NATO aircraft fly nap of the earth to avoid SAMs. Any Soviet radar not turned off is zapped by ARMs. IRL, over Iraq, Coalition strike pilots learned the hard way that "dumb" AAA was a much greater threat to their aircraft than radar-guided SAMs and consequently, once the Iraqi SAM networks were sufficiently degraded, very few missions were flown below 5000 feet. Clancy didn't know about that when he wrote the book, but the Israelis had learned the same thing in their various wars against their Arab neighbors, so it seems strange that this hard-earned lesson was ignored in the book.

This could all be one of those times I can hear him say, "Well, I'm the author, and I had to decide on what worked and what didn't, and what would advance the story. Go write your own, if you don't like it." :D

To me, yeah, low-level AAA is a greater threat than he had included, especially in such a force-dense region as central Germany. I will chalk a lot up to Clancy & Bond having studied more of the naval and naval-air elements than ground and ground/air parts of the War That Never Happened.

Still a good read, even if we knock off half a star for that.

[Raellus]

This isn't a recommendation. I haven't read this "book", and reviews on Amazon and Goodreads are mixed. I'm posting it here because it might be of interest to some of you wargamers.

https://russellphillips.uk/samples/Bear_Marches_West_sample.pdf

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[Matt Wiser]

Some of those scenarios are very recognizable: Team Yankee (anyone remember the GDW boardgame tie-in?), Red Storm Rising, and Red Army (Bezarin's attack is a dead giveaway).

GDW had a boardgame called Sands of War, which dealt with desert warfare from WW II to the Gulf War. One could use that for scenarios in RDF Sourcebook, say. I have it, and used it to game out scenarios from Coyle's Sword Point and Bright Star.

[Raellus]

After years out of print, Ralph Peters' Red Army is available on Amazon in trade paperback (6 x 1 x 9 inches). When I first heard about it, about 13 years ago, it was out of print and all I could get my hands on was a beat-up mass market paperback (the smallest format). At around $18, the new trade paperback is a bit pricey but, IMHO, worth the investment.

I started rereading it last night and it's as good as I remember. If you've never read Red Army, I recommend checking it out. It's about the opening phase of WWIII in central Europe, told from the point of view of Soviet soldiers, from a lowly private up to a major general. Reading Red Army inspired the OP of this megathread, an apologetic on the Soviet military of the last decade of the Cold War:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=897&highlight=defense+red+army

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[Claidheamh]

Seconding this recommendation. I didn't love most of his other books, but this was a very well crafted story, with much better emphasis on characters than Clancy ever managed.

[Homer]

Red Army was a good read. Much better than the faceless horde the pact was stereotyped as in most western treatments of a conflict. Seeing the Soviets execute their tactics and operational art under best circumstances was really good. Peters probably suffered in review by having the Soviets focus on the “weak sisters” of Netherlands and Belgium to isolate the more effective British and German force at the expense of focusing on the usual decisive clash of US versus Soviet forces. That said, the Americans are a tactically decisive force on the battlefield but cannot overcome the political indecision of NATO.

I also liked The War in 2020, which was similar in showing the not necessarily symmetric relationship between tactics and strategy. The American forces suffer a strategic defeat in the beginning, and climb out of defeat to achieve battlefield dominance in the end. However, the political will to capitalize on battlefield gains is lacking and it’s all for naught. The pieces about domestic support operations and counter guerrilla operations in Mexico left me wishing for more detail. Seemed very T2K/recovery.

[Heffe]

It's been 14 years since anyone mentioned it in this thread, but I'll second the recommendation on the Sharpe novels (later turned Sharpe's Rifles tv series). It's a bit Mary Sue-ish, but it covers small unit action in the Napoleonic Wars. Lots of great ideas in here.

On that note, and this is probably a bit out of left field, but I would HIGHLY recommend the Gaunt's Ghosts series. It's Warhammer 40k set, small unit fiction by the same guy that wrote Guardians of the Galaxy, and the 12? books so far are an absolute joy to read. Really fantastic descriptions of battles (albeit often against demons and cultists) and strong character building. And as with Sharpe, definitely more than a few scenario ideas that can be pulled out of the series for use in T2k.