Alternate version of New America...

[natehale1971]

Hi there everyone,

Has anyone else changed New America in their campaigns from a bunch of right-wing redneck racist christo-facsit wackos? espeically since every attempt at creating these far 'right-wing' fringe racist groups to work together has aways failed (even when they are all Neo-Nazis whom only differ in their charismatic leadership).

I have changed them from this model, to a grassroots group based similarly off ACORN... They are a much more Populist group than being either 'Right-wing' or 'Left-wing'... but having embraced alot of the charismatic leadership styles used by the socialist/facist/communist tyrannies in the past....

has anyone else done this?

[kato13]

I removed the overt racism to make them a little less clear of an enemy. I put them halfway from how they are presented and the what I consider to be the feelings of the average southerner. They are very anti-Mexican though due to the invasion.

I make it more like a very well organized cult. With a very charismatic leaders who manipulate a scared and hungry populace.

[natehale1971]

When i can find my notes, i'll post them. showing just how "new america' was... originally based upon the ideals of the United States Progressive Party, and their leadership that i had written up (just like i have for Cummings)

[Targan]

I have left New America in my campaign exactly as it was written in the modules. I find the racism of New America has helped in my campaign because it has left one of my main PCs, Major Anthony Po, somewhat conflicted - he agrees with much of New America's policies but he is a Chinese American. Po thinks of himself as part of America's neo-aristocracy already (before the war is was one of the top 100 most wealthy people in the USA) and is highly offended that New America would not consider him to be one of their 'Natural Aristocrats' because of his ethnicity.

[headquarters]

I have twisted the faction into a similar entity with different wrapping -the New Dawn Party .

Its a utilatarian (?) ,totalitarian militant organization with a" you are a member or an enemy policy".

Its got cells and enforcers etc but it also operates overtly and at one time actually held power ..
yep- we are canon nonconformist heathen norse swine up here ,mixing good and righteous material with our own dark traditions.

[General Pain]

I have twisted the faction into a similar entity with different wrapping -the New Dawn Party .

Its a utilatarian (?) ,totalitarian militant organization with a" you are a member or an enemy policy".

Its got cells and enforcers etc but it also operates overtly and at one time actually held power ..
yep- we are canon nonconformist heathen norse swine up here ,mixing good and righteous material with our own dark traditions.

The good General (my character) had a wonderful and just faction going on in your campaign....It was filled with food / work / television for the masses.....the good old days.....I'll get it back you know.....I just have to estinguish some candles in the process he he

[kato13]

I have left New America in my campaign exactly as it was written in the modules. I find the racism of New America has helped in my campaign because it has left one of my main PCs, Major Anthony Po, somewhat conflicted - he agrees with much of New America's policies but he is a Chinese American. Po thinks of himself as part of America's neo-aristocracy already (before the war is was one of the top 100 most wealthy people in the USA) and is highly offended that New America would not consider him to be one of their 'Natural Aristocrats' because of his ethnicity.

That is a perfect conflict. Have they had any direct contact yet?

[Targan]

That is a perfect conflict. Have they had any direct contact yet?
Kind of. Po's group wiped out a CIA cell and its hired guns operating in New Jersey and during that six or seven week conflict it emerged that the leader of the CIA group and at least some of his underlings were New America members or sympathisers.
Other than that there was only the scanty information on New America in intel briefings that Po received from MilGov HQ in Norfolk when he returned from Europe.

[Rainbow Six]

To be honest, as a Brit living in the UK I never quite "got" the whole concept of New Anerica when it was first introduced in what was it, late 80's? In those pre internet (and pre foreign travel) days the US in general was a whole different World that I only knew from TV shows, and I had a hard time getting my head round the idea that such an organisation could exist. So i tended to ignore them.

These days I guess I'm more worldy wise, but as my T2K attention isn't focused on the US, I've continued to disregard New America completely.

[Adam F]

I personally think New America kinda worked in the eighties (with the comedy buffoonish eeevilness of them tuned down considerably), but aren't plausible as such a widespread and organised faction in a more present day or near future setting.

I'm actually giving the name to a more localised Floridan based Scientologist faction in my present campaign. The Scientologists fill the bill nicely as a wacked-out loony faction that is already armed and potentially rather dangerous in a post-apoc future.

[weswood]

What makes me wonder is that from what I remember of the 80's when the game was written, racism was on the decline. I can remember race riots in a couple schools in Georgia and Louisiana that I went to in the late 70's, but I can't remember any real problems in the 80's. And it seems that unfortuneatley that it's on the rise again, at least to a right wing conservative southern redneck :evil4:

And no, I don't believe in the whole New America concept. If I ever use them, they'll be left wing comunist radicals!

[sglancy12]

Has anyone else changed New America in their campaigns from a bunch of right-wing redneck racist christo-facsit wackos? espeically since every attempt at creating these far 'right-wing' fringe racist groups to work together has aways failed (even when they are all Neo-Nazis whom only differ in their charismatic leadership).



Pardon me while I attempt to resurrect this thread. Elsewhere in the forum some ideas were being kicked around regarding New America's methods and goals, and it got me thinking about how hard it would be to sell Carl Hughes "Natural Aristocracy" to the average American.

And again, it's going to be extremely difficult for most of these right-wing groups to work together. Hell, even left-wing groups constantly split over issues of nit-picky dogma and clashes over leadership (disguised as clashes over dogma) all the time. But New America is the right-wing threat to America, not the left-wing threat. The Soviets have that covered (mostly).

So back to New America. I think that for New America to grow to be a major threat to MilGov and CivGov that it needs to be more like an infiltrating conspiracy and more like a mystery cult.

As an infiltrating conspiracy New America has sent out agents during the 1980s and early 1990s to joined many of the groups that New America wants to bring under its control. This includes anything from populist anti-federal and anti-tax groups, groups that advocate the use of violence to promote a white nationalist agenda, and even groups that have moved into outright criminal activity: assassinations, bank robberies, bombings, etc.. Of course, I think NA would mostly steer clear of the groups that are actually engaging in criminal activity (like the Order) because they want to avoid the scrutiny of the FBI, ATF and other law enforcement agencies.

New America wouldn't have to bring all these groups under the NA banner before the war, but the NA agents in these diverse groups are the guys who bring in much needed resources: cash, high tech equipment and even illegal weapons. Once the bombs fall and resources run thin, it's the NA members of these groups who have all the answers. They know where the NA supply caches are. They might even arrange for a NA supply drop. They have contact with higher headquarters who can provide intelligence about everything from the movement of marauders and refugees to weather patterns and even medical advice. They might even be able to call on reinforcements from other NA cells or right wing groups controlled by NA cells. The NA agents rise through the ranks of their adopted organization until they have enough influence to sell the Michigan Militia (for example) on adopting the banner of New America. This last stage would be the most difficult and might never be accomplished, leaving a splinter group like The Order or Posse Comitatus remain merely "New America-influenced" rather than out-right controlled.

One wonders if there is a big map in NA's Country Home HQ color coded to show which groups have declared openly for NA, which groups are controlled by NA agents but remain independent, which have been infiltrated but remain independent, and even groups targeted for infiltration. That could certainly include MilGov and CivGov garrisons.

As a mystery cult, New America's agenda and goals are hidden not only from the general public, but also from the rank and file membership. In this way they resemble Scientology. If you presented the "final revelations" of Scientology to the average follower of Scientology and Dianetics on day 1 (i.e. the whole Xenu-atomic bomb-volcano-soul thing) they would walk away from a clearly ridiculous belief system. However, if New America starts out disguising it's agenda so that none of the members get the full picture until they are fully committed to the movement, then they can get more people in the front door. Once the new members are fully committed to New America, the full agenda is revealed. Now it's too late to back out, or maybe the new member has come to accept the groupthink, like any cult.

New America could also tailor its public agenda to fit the needs of the regional cells. In the Bible Belt, they could sell themselves as a movement to rebuild America as a Christian Nation. In the southwest they could present themselves as a resistance movement fighting the invasion by the Mexican Army (and advocating the expulsion of all "Mexicans" from America). The New America doctrine of Natural Aristocracy could be presented more like Ayn Rand's Objectivism, where only those who contribute are worthy of citizenship. Later, the racial component is introduced, by which time the new member is already committed or has even decided not to care because it's not his or her ox that's being gored.

It would be interesting if the players traveled across the country and encountered different groups that advocate wildly different agendas, but all of which claim to be New America. In an age without mass communications, the variations in public agenda might be overlooked. Without the ability to compare what the cell in Arizona is saying, to what the cell in Idaho is saying to what the cell in Georgia is saying, it's going to be hard for the average person to realize that New America is changing its message to tell people what they want to hear.

Through these two methods, New America can be even more of a threat to life and liberty in North America, without straining the players' credulity.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

Pardon me while I attempt to resurrect this thread.

Thread necromancy is encouraged.

[waiting4something]

I think it would be cool just to have a secret organization of bad ass Americans that have been training and preparing for hard times whether it be from a foreign or domestic enemy. They don't have to be bible thumpers or racist people, just people that see American government as a broken down machine that is only gonna get worse. I thought the New Americans were the cooler of the 3 groups. When everyone in the USA was living in a dream land these guys were building and preparing for survival. I don't think they could be is large scale as they were in the book and kept secret, but that's just me. The book also made them out to be substandard fighters, which I found weird since they were the only ones with war on there minds the whole time since the 1970's.:confused:

[sglancy12]

I think it would be cool just to have a secret organization of bad ass Americans that have been training and preparing for hard times whether it be from a foreign or domestic enemy.

I think they called that The Morrow Project. If you are not familiar with it I suggest you check out that post-apocalyptic setting.

They don't have to be bible thumpers or racist people, just people that see American government as a broken down machine that is only gonna get worse.

That's pretty much the people New America wants to recruit, even if those people wouldn't want to be part of New America if they understood it's agenda.

When everyone in the USA was living in a dream land these guys were building and preparing for survival. I don't think they could be is large scale as they were in the book and kept secret, but that's just me. The book also made them out to be substandard fighters, which I found weird since they were the only ones with war on there minds the whole time since the 1970's.:confused:

Well, I certainly agree that the size of the organization beggars the imagination. Unless the FBI and ATF all took a collective vacation, it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to imagine that an organization with the money and manpower of New America could exist.

I think the reason that New America's troops are made out to be substandard (or at least sub-standard to US troops who've just spent three years fighting the Red Army), is that most New America recruits were envisioned to be arm-chair warriors. The kind of guys who read Soldier of Fortune and Guns & Ammo, but who've never been willing to give up their time to actually serve their country. Posers, in other words.

I don't fully agree with that idea since there's no reason to expect that extremists ripe for recruitment by New America couldn't also be veterans of the US military. Timothy McVeigh for instance. The authors of the original TW2K seemed to believe that the culture of the military would weed guys like that out. Personally, I think the military culture just encourages guys like that to keep their mouths shut so they are harder to identify.

Certainly there's no reason why some NA cells couldn't be as deadly as the Holonists as they were portrayed in David Brin's novel The Postman. In the novel, the average Holonist was worth something like 10 militia men from any other group. After all, just because they have an evil ideology doesn't mean they can't be courageous and talented warriors. Just look at the Waffen SS or the Taliban.

I thought the New Americans were the cooler of the 3 groups.

I'm not sure how to say this without it coming off as a cheap shot, but I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind this conclusion.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[waiting4something]

I think they called that The Morrow Project. If you are not familiar with it I suggest you check out that post-apocalyptic setting.



That's pretty much the people New America wants to recruit, even if those people wouldn't want to be part of New America if they understood it's agenda.



Well, I certainly agree that the size of the organization beggars the imagination. Unless the FBI and ATF all took a collective vacation, it requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to imagine that an organization with the money and manpower of New America could exist.

I think the reason that New America's troops are made out to be substandard (or at least sub-standard to US troops who've just spent three years fighting the Red Army), is that most New America recruits were envisioned to be arm-chair warriors. The kind of guys who read Soldier of Fortune and Guns & Ammo, but who've never been willing to give up their time to actually serve their country. Posers, in other words.

I don't fully agree with that idea since there's no reason to expect that extremists ripe for recruitment by New America couldn't also be veterans of the US military. Timothy McVeigh for instance. The authors of the original TW2K seemed to believe that the culture of the military would weed guys like that out. Personally, I think the military culture just encourages guys like that to keep their mouths shut so they are harder to identify.

Certainly there's no reason why some NA cells couldn't be as deadly as the Holonists as they were portrayed in David Brin's novel The Postman. In the novel, the average Holonist was worth something like 10 militia men from any other group. After all, just because they have an evil ideology doesn't mean they can't be courageous and talented warriors. Just look at the Waffen SS or the Taliban.



I'm not sure how to say this without it coming off as a cheap shot, but I'd really like to hear your reasoning behind this conclusion.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

I was counting on someone to have issues with me saying that.:) Well, think about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.
Yes, it's clear as day that they try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult. I mean they just try to make them the ultimate bad guys to make the Twilight World more interesting. Your hereos can only be as good as your bad guys are bad. If you just had Civ Gov and Mil Gov fighting each other alone the story would be more blah. Civ and Mil gov are really not all that much different in some ways. They are both made up old of politics just one is more in favor of a marshal law type atmoshpere.
As far as New Americans being lesser warriors because they were not Europe or the Middle East, meh I don't know. Every unit has dirt bags period. I lot of how good people are in my own opion is do to morale. I have seen good units turn bad just from a simple change of command and vice versa. The Americans returning would have most likely had better weapons handling and understanding of tactics, but they were fighting convetionally too. Now home in the USA it's all guerrrilla warfare, which the New Americans and the State side military have been doing.
That's just my view, wrong or right. :vampanim:

[kato13]

I was counting on someone to have issues with me saying that.:) Well, think about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.

As a child of the cold war I respected survivalists. I often had questions about many of their opinions on certain matters, but the go it alone mentality was interesting to me. I realize now I would never have been emotionally distant enough to be a successful one if the balloon went up (I would have ended up trying to help too many people), but planning to be one was a fun logistical exercise to me back in the day.

The fundamental problem is how do you unify what are by nature rugged individualists. The canon "New America" does this by instilling a sense or superiority and vilifying an external enemy. As has been seen in history that really can work.

I did not like that solution so I made them anti-government, anti refugee and strongly anti immigrant. This makes them a bit more of a gray enemy in my opinion. It also probably weakens the bonds between cells. However a charismatic leader can still motivate a majority of them.

[Webstral]

While I also have my doubts about how secret an organization like New America could be, New America makes for good story-telling. One can tweak NA to fit one's own limitations on suspension of disbelief. I've never been big on New America, but the organization can serve a purpose.

I like the Neo-Nazi racism foundation for New America because for me it taps into some very deep, dark stuff. For better or for worse, my father was a history major at a liberal arts college. I grew up on WW2 history. I got a stiff dose of Holocaust awareness in my at-the-dinner-table and riding-in-the-car and fishing-at-the-local-pond education. Flash forward in time, and I'm married to a woman whose parents are African-American and Asian-American. To the Neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and Aryan Brothers of the nation, my son is an abomination, while I am a blood traitor. I like having the story-telling tool of New America available specifically because I'm not remotely neutral about the New American racism.

Getting to the story-telling part, I have been sketching out ideas for the New American power in Idaho so I can show these guys in action. New America is a device for showing how the kind of evil that overtook Germany can overtake at least a slice of the American population. Not every white person in the Idaho cantonment has to be a racist. Like the Germans, the non-NA folks along the Snake River simply have to go along with the program.

In The Final Solution, a New American cell has enjoyed huge success in the Snake River Valley of Idaho. Unlike the Tampa New American organization, the Snake River New Americans have gone with a more traditional Holocaust-style of treatment of the untermenschen. Concentration camps have been set up, and the non-Aryan internees are worked to death. It's pretty straightforward, really.

From a story-telling standpoint, I get my dramatic release from two events. The first is the friction that develops between the Shogun in Nevada and the New Americas. The Shogun is a warlord, but he's an equal-opportunity warlord. He's Japanese-American, and the outward apsects of his army (the Gunryo) are heavily Japanese partially as a means of fostering internal cohesion among his troops. The Gunryo has a lot of bikers, but the few racists have been... weeded out. The Shogun gets wind of what is happening in Idaho and executes a major raid with his army of mobile marauders. He "liberates" a number of people from the concentration camp, then promptly adds them to the peasant population under his thumb in Nevada. Mind, I'm not trying to make the Shogun a hero. I just like the irony of the Shogun and New America being at each other's throats.

The second event is Operation Manifest Destiny. The Snake River has to be opened up to barge traffic so that the Colorado and the Puget Sound cantonments can be linked logistically. Skipping over the preparations to build an expeditionary force that can do the job (which could fill a thick novel), I imagine American troops gathered from all over the country (including a reinforced battalion from SAMAD) pushing forward an offensive to crush the New Americans and liberate the surviving Americans in the concentration camps. So yes, it's a fairly simple good v evil story for me. I happen to like it because it touches me in a very personal, very fundamental way.

Webstral

[Targan]

I like the Neo-Nazi racism foundation for New America because for me it taps into some very deep, dark stuff. For better or for worse, my father was a history major at a liberal arts college. I grew up on WW2 history. I got a stiff dose of Holocaust awareness in my at-the-dinner-table and riding-in-the-car and fishing-at-the-local-pond education. Flash forward in time, and I'm married to a woman whose parents are African-American and Asian-American. To the Neo-Nazis, Klansmen, and Aryan Brothers of the nation, my son is an abomination, while I am a blood traitor. I like having the story-telling tool of New America available specifically because I'm not remotely neutral about the New American racism.

I'm glad you wrote this Web. I have held off posting in any threads about New America because the whole concept of NA makes me very uncomfortable. Of all the things in modern society that I can not abide, racism is high on my list. I often say (only half jokingly) that you can always find much better reasons to hate someone than the colour of their skin. I don't like speculating on what New America would or would not do because I don't want to have to put try to put myself inside the head of a New America member. I'm normally pretty good at being empathic and trying to see things from other peoples' points of view but with NA I find myself really not wanting to.

[pmulcahy11b]

I like to have the racist New America as bad guys, for the reasons Targan mentioned. My mother is a concentration camp survivor, and that contributes as well.

As for myself, racism is basically institutionalized hate, and in the US we're already seeing it reassert itself. But It doesn't make sense to me -- there are so many reasons to hate people as individuals that hating them as a race doesn't make any sense. Dogs are altogether better people -- most of the time they love unconditionally, and when they don't, people probably made them that way.

[sglancy12]

Well, thing about it New America grew up on it's own. No government funding, no pay check for joining, no reason for being there accept you wanna be. That's what I dig.

Yeah well, that could also describe the RUF, the Sendero Luminoso, the Taliban, Al Queda, and the Khmer Rouge... none of which I would describe as "cool." Interesting maybe. Even fascinating... but not cool.

Yes, it's clear as day that they try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

The "they" to which you refer are the authors of the TW2K game setting. They don't have to try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult because New America absolutely is a loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW.

Am I reading your comments correctly?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

I will be honest, NA is good for my campaign as it gives the MILGOV/CIVGOV forces some ones else to worry about.

Personally, I see NA being the source of a fair amount of "rebuilding". Organizations with this much power tend to be a catalyst for other reforms and such to counter them as well.

[waiting4something]

Yeah well, that could also describe the RUF, the Sendero Luminoso, the Taliban, Al Queda, and the Khmer Rouge... none of which I would describe as "cool." Interesting maybe. Even fascinating... but not cool.



The "they" to which you refer are the authors of the TW2K game setting. They don't have to try to portray the New Americans as some loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult because New America absolutely is a loony toon 3rd Reich wannabe cult.

You sound like you think the New Americans are getting a bad rap from the former staff writers at GDW.

Am I reading your comments correctly?

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Well Robin Hood was pretty cool and he didn't go with the government grade and was self promoting too.:D

As far as "they" I I'm refering to the authors of TW2K. They are the ones that made the NA what they are, are they not?:rolleyes: I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia.:rolleyes: And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.
You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's. Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.:D
So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two.

[John Farson]

I've always thought of NA as coming to the fore after the nuclear exchange, offering law and order, food, security and protection against raiders, rebuilding etc. etc. In the sorry situation the U.S. is in, I'd think that a lot of people would be quite open to all that.

Naturally, NA would use propaganda to mask their more odious true nature from the general public. I doubt they'd immediately go "RAR! We are teh Aryans!!! We gonna kill all the filthy niggers, jooze, fags, mormons and anyone else we don't like!" They'd be more clever than that, which would make them all the more dangerous. This reminds me of a joke I once read in MAD magazine about the "patriot" who ends up hating about 90% of Americans.:rolleyes:

[Legbreaker]

The Khmer Rouge of course were Communists who took it to the absolute extreme. Fortunately their reign over their country was relatively short, but did they know how to kill people!
Of course the majority of the people they killed were their own, which many people pointed the finger at just to save their own skins (and then most still died).

A truely horrific group which unfortunately still exists in the more remote regions... :(

[headquarters]

The Khmer Rouge of course were Communists who took it to the absolute extreme. Fortunately their reign over their country was relatively short, but did they know how to kill people!
Of course the majority of the people they killed were their own, which many people pointed the finger at just to save their own skins (and then most still died).

A truely horrific group which unfortunately still exists in the more remote regions... :(

I always saw the ndp as something along those lines ( NDP -NEW DAWN PARTY in our campaign) .Not communist and totally different setting , but you know-totalitarian ,fear fuelled obidience and uniformity.

Shelter-Bread-Leadership

the creed of the NDP who woved to give all a berth and space in a bunker ,calories enough to feed all and of course a 23 hour and 45 min program for how the populace would spend their days in their bunkers.

Yeah -I know -that 15 min gap proves it . They are softies.

They do have a death mine though , for dissidents.They inherited it and renamed it from The General Pain Asbestos CO. Ltd when the glorious reign of teh General collapsed during the first MilGov invasion /liberation attempt in 2014.( Yeah.Some call it this ,some that ,depending on loyalties..)

Much the same clientele .

[Legbreaker]

Something that was half joked about when I was in the army was that we were not allowed to be worked more than 23 hours and 45 minutes in a day as anything more could be described as slavery.

[sglancy12]

Well Robin Hood was pretty cool and he didn't go with the government grade and was self promoting too.:D

Don't think Robin of Loxley would much appreciate being grouped with Pol Pot and Carl Hughes.

And why not build them (the New Americans) like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.

Frankly the Soviets get to fill those shoes in TW2K. Got yer spiffy uniforms. Got yer brutal secret police. Got yer massive army. Even got Gulags to stand in for concentration camps.

You Mention Khmer Rouge which I give you props for, because most people don't even know or remember them and they happened after the nazi's. Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's.

You are all over the place dude. First you ask "Why weren't New America more like the Nazis?" then you complain that Nazis have been overused?

Look at Africa do we know what happens there- no, we don't care. Why because they aren't popular.:D

Hey, I mentioned the RUF didn't I? Maybe I should have thrown in the Lord's Resistance Army from Uganda. Those guys are 8 cylinder, fuel-injected psychos.

So yeah the writers did make the NA bad guys. A group like that couldn't get that big, because everyone is looking for that type of evil. They could of made them less flamboyant bad guys or not bad guys at all, just another group that doesn't see eye to eye with the other two.

I mean they could have made them dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia.

Okay, I still don't get your point. Are you turned off because the New Americans were made out to represent the worst aspects of the survivalist movement? Do you see the New Americans as a deliberate slight against anyone white, christian, rural, politically conservative and dedicated to self-sufficiency?

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements.

The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kato13]

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement.


I have to say that I cut GDW a little slack on the attaching of Facist/Nazi characteristics to New America as when they did it (mid to late 80s), it was not nearly the cliche that it is now. It was actually kinda novel back then (at least to me) and given the tone of some survivalist groups, potentially accurate..

In today's world you see the fact that the movie version of "Sum of All fears" change the villains from Palestinian terrorists to, you guessed it, neo Nazis. Even thought the origin or fissile materials they used was a lost Israeli bomb found in Syria. This just smacks of lazy writing or a desire not to be controversial. Nazis are just such an easy target.

[pmulcahy11b]

Neo-Nazis are an easy target -- but they're also an easy plot device. Sometimes, those are necessary, as long as those easy plot devices aren't overused.

[waiting4something]

Don't think Robin of Loxley would much appreciate being grouped with Pol Pot and Carl Hughes



Frankly the Soviets get to fill those shoes in TW2K. Got yer spiffy uniforms. Got yer brutal secret police. Got yer massive army. Even got Gulags to stand in for concentration camps..

Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.



You are all over the place dude. First you ask "Why weren't New America more like the Nazis?" then you complain that Nazis have been overused?

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"?:confused: In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.





Okay, I still don't get your point. Are you turned off because the New Americans were made out to represent the worst aspects of the survivalist movement? Do you see the New Americans as a deliberate slight against anyone white, christian, rural, politically conservative and dedicated to self-sufficiency?

I don't see how you don't get my point? It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing. Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

I don't think the authors intended the New Americans to represent the entire survivalist movement. There is plenty of room in the canon for survivalist philosophies that do not include the fascism and racism of New America. I will admit that as written in TW2K the survivalist movement was a prime recruiting ground for New America, just like in real life many of the white supremacists and racial separatist movements attempted to recruit from the survivalist and the later militia movements..[/quote]

Not so sure if this is true. But, the media sure likes to print headlines like that.
And I'm sure headlines like that in the 1970-1980's are what made the author go that route.

The New Americans were certainly influenced by David Brin's Holonists from "The Postman." In that book survivalists are depicted as the reason the government fails to recover after the limited nuclear exchange and why the country breaks down into anarchy and chaos. But I don't think that the authors at GDW had an agenda concerning the depiction of survivalist..


Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.:D

[waiting4something]

Neo-Nazis are an easy target -- but they're also an easy plot device. Sometimes, those are necessary, as long as those easy plot devices aren't overused.

Yes and here is what I was saying.:D

[Targan]

Never read The Postman or saw that Kevin Costner movie either. I think the author picked survivalist, because the average American more then likely sees them as crazies.:D

I recommend the book The Postman (matter of fact I recommend anything by David Brin). It is good post apocalyptic sci fi. Don't bother with the film unless you like cheese.

[sglancy12]

When did I ever state "why weren't the New Americans more like Nazis"? In fact my complaining was that they where made out to be like or baised off of Nazis.

Here's where I got confused. You wrote:


I mean they (the GDW authors) could have made them (the New Americans) dudes that just where anti government, didn't like typical U.S. politics, or waiting for hard times ahead. No they made them to be the typical Hollywood racist redneck militia.:rolleyes: And why not build them like the Nazi's they are the popular guys to hate on. Years of movies and TV have taught us well on that. Hell even the film Star Wars had bad guys based on Nazi's.

Bad guys and the groups they run can be different from the nazi's yet this always goes unnoticed, because we are so brainwashed on what we are fed by the media. Hell some other evil could lurk up on us, because we are so focused on nazi's.


I read that sentence I highlighted in bold and I thought that what you were saying "Why not make the New Americans like nazis instead of racist redneck militia?" So it looked to me like you were offering the Nazis as an alternative to racist redneck militia, then turning around and saying how tired and overused Nazis are. Clearly I was wrong.

I guess the problem here is I that don't equate racist redneck militias with the Nazis... or skin heads, or the Klan, or even the Aryan Nations guys. Those guys are not Nazis because they have an inherent and highly American distrust of big institutions and government. They want America to be like they imagine it was in the Mid-19th century: Run by white Christian men, where anyone else has no rights we are bound to respect, and the government can't get in the way of how you dispose of your property. Rugged frontier individualism with a dose of America for Americans and no sense of irony about the fact that except for the redskins we're all illegal immigrants.

Nazis, that is real historical Nazis and not these cheap wanna-be knock offs, don't want rugged individualism. They want to submerge their identity into a greater whole (hence all the spiffy uniforms). They want to be part of the well-oiled machine (like the Weremacht or the Waffen SS). A juggernaut of history reshaping the world (Deutchland Uber Alles). I'm not saying they are robots, but the Nazis (and fascists) of the 1930s and 1940s do not distrust the state. They love the state. They see the state as the only mechanism to solve society's problems.

As for more on who fills the shoes of the Nazis in TW2K...


Ahhh no. The Soviets were not really in the U.S. except for Division Cuba and the ones in Alaska. The Soviets themselves really weren't made out to be bad guys in this. There were marauder groups that were mainly Soviet that were, but not the Soviets themselves. And spiffy uniforms, come on those things are cheap and ugly.

I meant globally they fit the Nazi's shoes. They start the war, they go nuclear first, they dump their prisoners into lethal gulags, their secret police execute anyone even suggesting that maybe this war isn't a good idea or that perhaps this or that order might not be the best idea. They are the bad guys.

Sure, you get Red Army commanders with some humanity and sense of proportion. But the KGB is an evil organization at it's core. It's going to make sure that the Red Army dies in place fighting for war-aims that are clearly impossible to achieve while the KGB and Party officials sit it out in the backfield. They are the Gestapo.

As for their uniforms not being spiffy... Okay maybe they don't dress as sharp as the SS with those black uniforms with the silver piping... but come on! The Nazis were the best dressed evil bastards in history. You can't top them for style. A direct comparison isn't fair. I'm just saying that their uniforms would be spiffier than the Army surplus that the New Americans would be wearing.

It seems you just really dig the whole ultimate bad guy evil army thing.

I have my ultimate bad guy evil army thing... it's called the Soviet Union. Sure there aren't enough of them in the CONUS, and if anything I almost feel sorry for the Division Cuba because they are so freakin' screwed. But yes, I dig having the Sovs on US soil so much I'm willing to overlook the logistical impossibility of getting so many of them into Alaska. Go Wolverines!

Or you you like the idea of white, christian, rural, politically conservative, and not government backed people being the ultimate bad guys?

The history of this country demonstrates that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient has too often translated into "I'll kill you if you try to change things." Sure, we've had rinky-dink leftist terrorist groups like the SLA, the Weathermen, the ALF and the ELF, but they are usually little better than a bad joke. This isn't Europe with its Red Army Faction, or the Red Brigades. Our leftists get university jobs and spend their time whining about America's racism, sexism and imperialism and generally engaging in self flagellation over all of America's sins.

Political violence in America comes more often from the far right, not the far left. It's always been more wide-spread, more accepted, and more organized on the far-right than on the far left.

But that doesn't mean I get off portraying white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient folks as the ultimate bad guys in a role-playing game so I can pretend that my political biases represent reality. In fact, I believe that white, christian, rural, politically conservative and self-sufficient is the freakin' back bone of this country. They do all the heavy lifting around here. They're they guys that keep this country fed and most often fill the ranks of the military. In the TW2K world they are indispensable for rebuilding the country. Unfortunately they are also susceptible to New America's message, particularly if the message is wrapped in some half-truths and outright lies to convince folks that they are not really going to end up in a fascist state divided into racial castes.


A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[waiting4something]

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore. I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.;)

[kato13]

Well sglancy12, now that I see your views better and tend to agree with what you stated, I guess I can't argue with you anymore.

This thread teetered on the edge of going too political, but I am glad that we can come to a civil conclusion even on a very hot button topic. This forum can usually pull itself back from potential bad blood better than most forums. That is why I generally stay hands off, as we can usually talk it out. As is almost always the case, I am very proud of this forum and its members.

Kudos Gentlemen

[sglancy12]

I like seeing the Soviets as the bad guys too! But that's because commies are.;)

In my homebrew timeline I prefer that the Red Chinese and Soviets patch up their ideological bickering because the hard liners in both governments realize that the real enemy is the their own domestic populace. They have to keep the citizens sufficiently cowed and sufficiently fed otherwise the pro-democracy movements will continue to grow, achieving what it did in real life: toppled regimes in Eastern Europe and the USSR as humpty dumpty.

I was never comfortable with the US helping Red China in the TW2K timelines. Not that I don't think we would have "played the China card," but supporting Red China in a Sino-Soviet war is too much like being in bed with Stalin during WWII. Gives me the creeps. I'd be happier just letting them hash it out amongst themselves.

So just to be clear, I think the US would have supported China during a Sino-Soviet war as envisioned by GDW, but I wouldn't have liked it.

And for reasons I've stated elsewhere, I think a prolonged conventional Twilight War is more likely if the PRC and the USSR are fighting against the West.

Somehow we have to get back on topic to New America.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[kalos72]

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

[Webstral]

In Thunder Empire, the populace of SAMAD all pretty much become government employees. They obtain a Government Service rank based on what they can do. If you have no skills but can work hard and have US citizenship, you become a GS1. Almost anybody can be used in the labor battalions. Those who can't work the fields or in construction still might have a place in the machine shops, which are always hungry for labor.

As has been said before, what sets New America aside is not their interest in triage. New America's motives are far different than, say, MilGov's or CivGov's. New America is looking to create an Aryan United States. With the possible exception of the Florida enclave, New American cells would value a white man with no skills more highly than a black or Hispanic doctor, agricultural specialist, chemist, or engineer. As a rule, MilGov or CivGov will be nearly color blind when it comes to valuable skills. (Racism hides in unexpected places.)

Webstral

[sglancy12]

The more I ponder this topic, and the others regarding New America, I find myself asking this question.

Would a group of people, say a refugee camp or larger population that simply cant feed everyone start to "categorize" or "weigh" its citizens similar to the way NA does, only based on skills and usefulness rather then race and political beliefs?

Like I said earlier: Life Boat Politics. Any group under sufficiently dire stress could end up making these kinds of decisions. What starts as an underfed refugee camps could end up turning into something like a low-tech version of the City from Logan's Run. Only instead of killing or driving off the old, the refugee camp drives out anyone who isn't contributing to the survival of the majority.

But there is something to consider. TW2K is usually set around two and a half years after the nuclear exchange. There have been two harsh winters and a kind of "nuclear autumn." Refugee camps have suffered massive casualties by this time. The old, the sick, the handicapped, the mentally impaired, the mentally ill... all these kinds of people may have been either Darwined or even Malthused out of the equation by either the environment or even their fellow humans. By the time the players arrive on the scene, the weakest (pre-war) links have probably been removed. The social triage will no doubt continue as people get sick and injured, but by the summer of 2000, most camps are going to be down to their hardiest members. Any triage in the face of food supplies is going to be based on the individual's skills and ability to help the group. Not just what has someone done in the past, but what can they do in the future. Of course anyone with skills who refuses to use them might be subjected to some very brutal persuasion.

I think its ENTIRELY possible to see that sort of "what have you done for me lately" attitude in larger groups under stress on just feeding themselves. If you live in a small town and are decently safe and fed, as per T2K standards go anyways, I doubt you would resort to this.

I've seen post apocalyptic fiction where the communities supplies were manipulated to create false shortages in order to prompt the community to conduct a lottery to determine who had to be kicked out into the wilderness. Of course the lottery was manipulated too to ensure that political and personal enemies were forced into exile. So don't think that some ruthless people couldn't evoke "lifeboat politics" to get what they want.

Perhaps NA cells, as they recruit more and more liberal minded people, the ones hiding it just to survive, the more those racial, elitist tendencies will get brushed aside. Especially for the cells that arent in direct contact with any sort of organized leadership any longer.

There is a TW2K scenario published in GDW's Challenge magazine issue #44 called "Crossburn." In it there is New America Cell that has broken with HQ because they realize if they throw talented "racial inferiors" out of the lifeboat, then the whole community is going to fail. They abandoned the orthodox racial agenda in favor of raw survival.

The scenario also features a band of marauders/deserters from the 108th ID (all of whom are racial minorities) who deserted because the command of New America is falling under the ideological influence of New America.

The scenario was significant because it mixed it up to make the standard villains red herrings.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Abbott Shaull]

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

[Webstral]

Funny thing about mention the Postman. The novel wasn't published until after Twilight 2000 was v1 was published.

The Postman is about the only movie I liked better than the book. The novel was very science fiction oriented, what with artificial intelligence and genetically engineered super troopers. The movie humanized General Bethlehem. I thought the movie made more sense, although I have to ignore the ending and some of the more silly sentimental moments in the middle.

Webstral

[Raellus]

Any time that there is a vacuum in the power structure, something or someone will eventually fill it. With the near collapse of the American federal government after the TDM, there would dozens of power vacuums from coast to coast. Whether a single entity like the New America of T2K canon would fill all of them is the question. I'm still not sure where I come down on this one. But I'm considering starting a CONUS-based campaign and that started me thinking seriously about this topic for the first time.

I've always liked the clear cut black and white of the Cold War rivals- it made perfect sense to me as a naïve pre-teen/teenager back in the mid-to-late '80s. Since then, I've come to see the world in all of its many shades of grey. Having a domestic enemy that is the same nationality as myself presents an interesting dilemma that I'd like to explore more. Naturally, New America was an immediate candidate to fill that domestic bad guy role. I've been thinking a lot lately about what New America would look like and this old thread provides a lot of good food for thought.

I recently watched a one-hour show on the National Geographic channel that briefly profiled three widespread American militia groups, all operating under the "Watchmen" moniker. One was in Florida, one in Ohio, and the last in Arizona. If they were directly linked in any way other than name, the show didn't say. I was left with the impression, however, that they were largely unaffiliated organizations. On a bit of an aside, they did however display a comically common body type- at least half of the militiamen caught on camera were grossly overweight. Their respective leadership cadres were very careful to be PC in their respective interviews. None of them publicly espoused any anti-government views; they all cited disaster preparedness and self-sufficiency as they raison de etre'. In fact, they all claimed that they existed to supplement existing government agencies in the event of an apocalyptic event. Every militia member across all three groups, aside from one Hispanic-looking man in the Ohio militia, was white. The Arizona group seemed the angriest of the three. Border security was their primary concern- they claimed that they're main quarry were foreign terrorists but their was a distinctly broad xenophobia in their rhetoric. By and large, all three of the Watchmen groups came across as earnest, politically moderate (or at least not quite extreme right leaning), well equipped poseurs.

I don't see something like New America as being far fetched. There's historical precedence in the United States. Buoyed by the Hollywood blockbuster, Birth of a Nation, Ku Klux Membership surged during the 1920s, albeit with a broader scope to its antipathy than its original iteration (Eastern and Southern European immigrants- Jews, and Catholics- as opposed to newly freed African-Americans, although black people weren't off the hook either) . It didn't wane in popularity again until its leader was accused of major sex crimes. To get back to my main point here, as many posters have previously stated, extremists tend to flourish in times of severe socio-economic stress, and political instability. It's no accident that the Russian Revolution happened during WWI, or that Fascism arose in the decades immediately after. A general breakdown in society provides extremists fertile soil in which to plant their seeds of anger and resentment, which often grow into hate.

Given said cataclysm, I can easily see a particularly well funded, supplied, connected extremist bringing together a lot of disparate militia groups under a single unified national organization in the United Sates. How much control at the local level this central figure would have would likely not be that great. Once again, communication, command, and control would be severely hindered by the devastation of multiple nuclear strikes. As a result, you'd see a lot of regional variation in organization, activities, and possibly even doctrine. Some New America cells might be very neo-Nazi in their outlook and activities. Others might not. That said, I still think that there would be more commonalities than differences.

If there was a blueprint for some sort of national militia organization in place before WWIII, then various regional groups would have a similar foundation. If someone wrote a book less radical and more widely distributed than something like the infamous Turner Diaries, then the scores of local and regional groups that would rise to fill the vacuum left in the wake of the TDM would have a popular model for their activities and organization. If the author of that popular book were still alive after the TDM, perhaps he could bring several of those regional organizations together, creating the active core of a more or less national movement. There would still likely be regional variation within this banner organization, but there would be some guiding principles that would link these groups together. To spice it up even more, part of the gameworld setting could be the struggle of the central New America leadership to unify and control these various local chapters.

But here are the features I think that all New America chapters would have in common:

1. Anti-[federal] government: The feds failed to protect the country, the presidential succession was a mess, and now their are two rival claimants to the mantle. Plus, real anti-fed militias really took off during the Clinton years, IRL.
2. Anti-communist: It was the Soviets, after all, that nuked America and created all of the devastation and suffering in the first place.
3. Anti-immigrant: The Mexican military invasion of the U.S. has given ample ammunition for any preexisting xenophobia-based arguments that may have had some traction before WWIII.
4. Religion: This one I'm not as sure about, but after near nuclear Armageddon, there might well be some lingering millennialism in here as well. Plus, since communism is in many ways anti-religion, there's almost a rebellious religiosity that goes hand in hand with anti-communism.

Some regional chapters may be a little more motivated by 1, some by 2, or 3, etc., but the basic framework is the same. I'm sure that not all chapters would get along. Some might fight openly for power.

Crap! It's way past my bedtime and I fear that I'm starting to ramble (heck, I probably started rambling an hour ago!), so I'd better call it a night and revisit this in the morning.

In the meantime, your thoughts and ideas are of course welcome.

[Olefin]

If you take New America as a given being anti-communist and anti-immigrant then you may actually see some New America cells aligning themselves with MilGov in its efforts in some areas - specifically in California, Texas, Arizona, Alaska and New Mexico.

Not because they support MilGov for any reason but because those areas find themselves either with Communist invaders still on their soil (Alaska and Texas) or with Mexican invaders (California, Texas, Arizona and New Mexico)

Thus even though they are basically anti-US government, in those cases their hatred of Communism and immigrants could push them to the old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" situation - at least until the invaders were gone.

The question would be - would those allies of convenience stay as such once they had pushed the enemy out - or would they then begin to fight amongst themselves again

Or put it this way - look at the fight in Army of Darkness - two human sides that hate each other but have a common enemy - they destroy them and then look at each other suspiciously - so do they then take each other on leaving in the end only one very weakened victor or unite as they did in the movie?

Could add an interesting touch to campaigns set in those areas where you have MilGov and NA acting together instead of being enemies - not endorsed of course by overall NA leadership but possible because of the relative looseness of the the overall command structure of NA - especially once Hughes gets grabbed by either CivGov or MilGov.

[Jason Weiser]

Here is my view on NA, YMMV.

New America is a product of that unfortunate heyday of 80s racial groups that occurred in the NW. Guys like these fellas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(group)

Throw in some concern about televangelism and other issues, and voila, here comes New America as a fictional construct.

Now, here's my POV. Are there racist types in the ranks? Um, yup. Anybody with any connection to the military has known at least one. They're always the scum we'd like to introduce to a towel party, but most of the time, the bastards are careful enough to keep their mouths shut. When they do screw up though, it's pretty spectacular. The good news is, they're usually the leader of a bunch of "gun-store commando" types I would not trust with a frosting gun, let alone a real one.

Hughes was basically an allegory for David Duke, make him more media savvy and with a bigger bankroll, and is New America possible? Yup. Fill out the right forms and suddenly, you've got 501(c)(3) status. Get a good media arm and you can convince the press you love puppies and kittens and all this "racist" talk is just that, talk. (Trust me, in my current position, I've dealt with the press...most of the domestic press are more content with being talking heads than getting the truth).

I agree with Web on folks "getting with the program". After something like Twilight, people are going to want people to blame for their circumstances. "Hey that <fill in the blank> has more than me!" If New America leads the mob that loots said guy's home and business, assuming he has the latter, and re-distributes it to folks who have none? Well, they just bought themselves allies, and if those grasshoppers happen to have a certain skin color exclusively? That's just a coincidence, friends.

And if you do happen to be a white redneck stereotype who manages to test into being a Second and is put over your better educated minority or just simply more liberal neighbors when they're made Thirds? Well, power is a hell of an aphrodisiac...and you just got that guy's loyalty for life. He'll do anything for you, even if it's pretty distasteful. Look at the biographies of most of the SS's top people. Before Himmler tapped them on the shoulder? They were rather unsuccessful people.

Then, add in people who don't trust the government for whatever reason, NA yanks their paranoia chain (and hey, as Olefin put it, the Feds have brought on the nuclear war, damn the facts that the Soviets had something to do with it too). A few choice ideas their way, and NA's propaganda section has got them eating out of their hand.

Simply put, is NA possible as written? It needs some work, perhaps not as strong as written, but I always pictured New America as being more willing to win by subterfuge, propaganda and just plain underhanded behavior, seeing force as something they use only when they've suborned the other local authorities.