Operation Manifest Destiny Ruminations

[Webstral]

During my commute, I have been thinking more about my Operation Manifest Destiny concept. (No, I’m not shelving Thunder Empire. I write Thunder Empire when I’m at home, but I conceptualize while driving.) As I have remarked before, the whole concept revolves around airships.

A potential mission or module would involve moving all of the airship equipment and personnel from Missouri to Colorado. MilGov probably would expend whatever resources necessary to ensure safe delivery. Still, given the state of things, there might be room for PCs to play their part. Route reconnaissance would be critical. Oklahoma, through which the most obvious route is traced, seems more-or-less under MilGov control, but one could tweak this situation to add excitement. Surely CivGov would have obtained information about the airships from its own agents. CivGov would realize that airships could completely change the balance of power in their favor. What kind of effort could they make to acquire the airship materials and people being trucked (presumably) to Colorado?

Equally, there may be players in the remnants of the Oklahoma government who could be swayed to try to get hold of the airship resources for themselves. Perhaps CivGov corrupts an important official in the rump Oklahoman government? Perhaps that person thinks s/he can make off with the airship resources and use them to purchase a position in whatever organization will offer the best deal? Perhaps a warlord just outside the boundaries of MilGov control gets wind of the movement of men and machines across Oklahoma and makes a bid of his own to acquire the invaluable convoy?

Assuming the airship materials liberated from the New Americans in the Ozarks make it to Colorado, there remains much to be done to realize a vision of fleets of airships aiding in the reestablishment of long-distance commerce and tying the nation back together. Based on the statistics in Airlords of the Ozarks (thanks, Littlearmies), the smaller New American airship cruises at 12 mph and has a range of 380 miles. The larger airship cruises at slightly more than 11 mph and has a range of more than 500 miles. In order to make proper use of the airships, MilGov will need to establish secure aerodromes at suitable intervals. In some cases, aerodromes will have to be established in locales where there is no MilGov control. Sorting out this problem is an excellent mission for player characters.

I see MilGov turning the whole airship show over to the Air Force. It wouldn’t take much for the USAF Chief of Staff to convince his counterparts that manufacturing as many airships with the greatest possible lift capacity would be Colorado’s top priority. Specialty products and machines not available in Colorado might be necessary. Players could be assigned long-range reconnaissance to locate the needed materials and machines.

Determining MilGov’s priorities is going to be a challenge for me. It’s not going to be hard to come up with a laundry list of missions for whatever airships Colorado Springs has available at any point in time. What gets done first? To a large degree, the answer is going to be based on the condition and assets of the Colorado enclave. Equally, the answer will be determined by the needs and assets of other MilGov enclaves. Also, key personalities will influence the list. Any input on all of this would be most welcome.

Webstral

[chico20854]

A potential mission or module would involve moving all of the airship equipment and personnel from Missouri to Colorado. MilGov probably would expend whatever resources necessary to ensure safe delivery. Still, given the state of things, there might be room for PCs to play their part. Route reconnaissance would be critical. Oklahoma, through which the most obvious route is traced, seems more-or-less under MilGov control, but one could tweak this situation to add excitement. Surely CivGov would have obtained information about the airships from its own agents. CivGov would realize that airships could completely change the balance of power in their favor. What kind of effort could they make to acquire the airship materials and people being trucked (presumably) to Colorado?

Equally, there may be players in the remnants of the Oklahoma government who could be swayed to try to get hold of the airship resources for themselves. Perhaps CivGov corrupts an important official in the rump Oklahoman government? Perhaps that person thinks s/he can make off with the airship resources and use them to purchase a position in whatever organization will offer the best deal? Perhaps a warlord just outside the boundaries of MilGov control gets wind of the movement of men and machines across Oklahoma and makes a bid of his own to acquire the invaluable convoy?

Opsec???? Maybe Milgov can find a team of soldiers whose families happen to be in a refugee camp in a Milgov enclave. In case years of operations overseas wouldn't have taught people that loose lips sink ships.

Milgov tells the state/local governments (or its subordinate commands) acquire X number of semi trucks (so many vans, so many flatbeds), Y gallons of fuel, and have troops ready to clear civilian traffic, if any, from roads when we tell you. Never any word of airships. High priority cargo, details classified.

Or it might be high enough priority to assign one of the remaining C-130s to fly out and pick up the cargo. To quote Mad Max in Road Warrior "Think of it as a down payment."

Assuming the airship materials liberated from the New Americans in the Ozarks make it to Colorado, there remains much to be done to realize a vision of fleets of airships aiding in the reestablishment of long-distance commerce and tying the nation back together. Based on the statistics in Airlords of the Ozarks (thanks, Littlearmies), the smaller New American airship cruises at 12 mph and has a range of 380 miles. The larger airship cruises at slightly more than 11 mph and has a range of more than 500 miles. In order to make proper use of the airships, MilGov will need to establish secure aerodromes at suitable intervals. In some cases, aerodromes will have to be established in locales where there is no MilGov control. Sorting out this problem is an excellent mission for player characters.

I see MilGov turning the whole airship show over to the Air Force. It wouldn’t take much for the USAF Chief of Staff to convince his counterparts that manufacturing as many airships with the greatest possible lift capacity would be Colorado’s top priority. Specialty products and machines not available in Colorado might be necessary. Players could be assigned long-range reconnaissance to locate the needed materials and machines.

Determining MilGov’s priorities is going to be a challenge for me. It’s not going to be hard to come up with a laundry list of missions for whatever airships Colorado Springs has available at any point in time. What gets done first? To a large degree, the answer is going to be based on the condition and assets of the Colorado enclave. Equally, the answer will be determined by the needs and assets of other MilGov enclaves. Also, key personalities will influence the list. Any input on all of this would be most welcome.

Webstral

It might be possible to string together Milgov enclaves with 500 mile hops. Colorado Springs to Ft. Sill, Ft. Sill to Memphis, Colorado Springs to Hill AFB, Hill to Mountain Home AFB, Mountain Home to McChord AFB, all are under 500 miles. (Yes, getting Hill and Mountain Home back under Milgov control might be an effort). California is more of a problem, as is finding somewhere in eastern Tennessee or SW Virginia to serve as a link to Norfolk and New Jersey.

One calculation the USAF will have to convince the other joint chiefs about is the tradeoffs between diverting men and material into airship construction is worth the savings in fuel over using the relatively massive quantities of existing civil (and military) cargo aircraft that sit grounded. When you add in the relative uncertainties of operations (vulnerability to rough weather, aircrew experience differentials between LTA and fixed wing pilots, availability of support facilities - runways, hangars, parts, gas, fuel) it gets even more difficult to decide.

When I was looking at what was needed for recovery, air transport came out pretty low on the scale. Its a (relatively) high-cost means of transportation. Its two advantages are speed and the ability to bypass hostile ground. Unfortunately, in many cases what is most needed to be moved between enclaves for long-term recovery is bulk items - food, fuel, munitions, manufactured products. These don't move well by air, even in LTA. In many cases, the most efficient use of resources is, unfortunately, to secure a surface transportation route - a rail line, navigible waterway, road or power/telephone line. In the recovery plan we're working on, we have Milgov maintaining a fixed-wing and LTA ferry service between enclaves, but it's infrequent and used for only high-priority passengers and cargo, certainly not being used to move sacks of rice or to reunite families. (This isn't to be cold-hearted, its just that the limited supplies of fuel, spares and crew means that commercial air service won't be back for a few decades).

[Abbott Shaull]

Now what would these ship be transporting. Anything above part the cost would be prohibiting.

[Targan]

Prevailing winds would need to be taken into account (location and time of year). The actual range could be significantly more or less when this is taken into account. Strong enough winds in the wrong direction could stop the airships cold (or force them to move to altitudes where the wind conditions are different. Strong enough winds in the right direction could make the entire process much, much easier (just floating along in the currents like a raft heading down stream.

Just a thought.

[Legbreaker]

Based on the statistics in Airlords of the Ozarks (thanks, Littlearmies), the smaller New American airship cruises at 12 mph and has a range of 380 miles. The larger airship cruises at slightly more than 11 mph and has a range of more than 500 miles.
Those speeds and ranges seem woefully inadequate in my opinion when you consider the Hindenberg of the mid to late 1930's was as follows:

General characteristics

Crew: 40 to 61
Capacity: 50-72 passengers
Length: 245 m (803 ft 10 in)
Diameter: 41 m (130 ft 0 in)
Volume: 200,000 m³ (7,100,000 ft³)
Powerplant: 4 × Daimler-Benz diesel engines, 890 kW (1,200 hp) each
Performance

Maximum speed: 135 km/h (85 mph)

Admittedly it was much larger, but even so, a machine built with 60+ year old technology able to move 10 times faster and regularly cross the Atlantic?

[Targan]

Diesel engines are pretty fuel efficient. The Airlords of the Ozarks airships run on methanol don't they? That would account for a big drop in range.

I'm pretty sure the listed speeds for the AotO airships are not the maximums and can be doubled or tripled can't they?

[Adm.Lee]

I'm pretty sure I read that the only place helium is "mined" is in the US-- Montana or South Dakota, maybe? I would think wherever that is, should be come a high priority, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve

Oh, crap, it's stored in Amarillo! But it can be recovered from natural gas fields, like the ones around central Kansas, apparently. Well, that will have to be one of the stops from Arkansas to Colorado Springs, then.

[kato13]

My resource maps on my gaming site (http://games.juhlin.com) has the location of the current Helium processing/storage sites.

http://games.juhlin.com/images/helium_locations.jpg

[Webstral]

OPSEC is a strange bird by 2000. We’d all love to believe that all of the appropriate people will be loyal and concerned with operational security. However, I think it’s entirely possible that local bandits and warlord will have agents in any major Army (Navy, USAF, Marine) command. A little gold, some dirt, a woman… the reasons for soldiers to pass information to others are as old as opposing forces. By 2000, many of the previous bets will be off for many of the survivors. Also, there is the high likelihood of CIA/CivGov moles in any major MilGov command. These moles might not be above passing information to local warlords if they felt doing so advanced CivGov’s interests over MilGov. It doesn’t take many people to compromise OPSEC.

As far as using C-130s goes, I think there are a couple of considerations. The first is the quantity of materiel to be moved. The wrecked airship and all of its components are going to be more than a single C-130 can haul. You raise a good point, though, by questioning just how much gear there is to be moved. I’ll have to re-examine the module and try to crunch some numbers.

The other problem with assuming that C-130s are available is that there are problems throughout CONUS that might be solved with a very modest airlift. For instance, the cat cracker at the MilGov enclave at Cairo, IL might be dealt with by moving suitable experts or a new part into place. Colorado might very well have some of both. Yet MilGov has not airlifted in the necessary gear or personnel to solve the problem. Why? By the same token, MilGov doesn’t provide transport for the PCs to get to Baja California to recover the precious weather satellite in Satellite Down. Why? One would think such a high priority item would merit an air drop into the locale at the very least. Further, in the opening section of Airlords of the Ozarks, the officer briefing the PCs remarks that the New Americans have achieved air superiority—with slow, short-range dirigibles and ultralights, no less. Perhaps the briefing officer only means local air superiority. Perhaps the briefing officer doesn’t understand that Colorado (or another MilGov enclave) still has MAC aircraft available. My interpretation, however, is that there are no operable C-130s to challenge the New American airlift capability. The briefing officer is concerned because the New Americans have found a way around the problems that have grounded the USAF.

I agree completely that Colorado Springs is going to try to find suitable bases for aerodromes within the range of whatever airships MilGov can acquire. The strategy will closely resemble the strategic placement of coaling stations across the Pacific linking the West Coast with the Philippines.

It’s true that air transport of the materials needed for recovery is at best a poor solution. Rail and water are the best solutions, if one is going to transport thousands of tons of grain, raw materials, fuel, and other bulk basic commodities from one part of the country to another. The object of the LTA links between MilGov enclaves is not to turn Colorado Springs into a granary that will provide other MilGov enclaves with ongoing supply. Airships enable MilGov to move certain key assets—foremost among them being personnel with critical skills. Other items that can be moved are machine tools and other specialty items that can help the surviving MilGov enclaves supply themselves. An emergency supply of several tons of seed might make the difference between an enclave feeding itself in Fall 2001 and failing. Although ammunition ought not to be moved by air, the timely arrival of a few tons of machine gun, rifle, and mortar rounds might make all the difference for some enclaves. Often, the item in shortest supply dictates the level of success of an organism, a population, or a society. Airships can ease the bottleneck for some of those items. Even a very limited ability to move personnel and goods between MilGov enclaves can have an enormous impact on the viability of the enclaves.

As for the range of the airships recovered from the New Americans, I agree that the range and speed of those airships are quite poor. Hopefully, Colorado Springs can do better in 2001 and beyond.

Webstral

[natehale1971]

In our campaign, we had airships (rigid-hulled zepplins actually) built by MilGov being built even before we had a copy of the Airlords of the Ozarks. We had descirbed the reason why, was that the Air Force Chief-of-Staff had someone on his staff who was a major history buff. And while growing up had gotten involved in gliders and airships, and brought up the fact that the Germans during the first world had used airships to send supplies to the German field armies in Africa. Since the majority of the USAF personnel assets had ended up being transfered to ground combat positions and other areas outside of Air Force control, they where able to convince GoA Cummings that developing these airships would be a major advantage since the majority of high-tech devices where out of their reach at the moment. They had already been using high altitude 'weather balloon' technology form the 1950s and 60s to gather intelligence, and this was just another 'retro-tech' answer to the problems they where having RIGHT NOW.

And since the USN actually still has several of the pre-World War Two era airships they operated in storage they and the USAF would have something to use as a model for their efforts to build large Zepplin style airships.

Thus MilGov had already started work on airship technology... And the addition of the New America Airship tech would allow them to speed up their work at developing these zepplins that would be needed for the recovery of the country.

Or at least.. that was how we did it in our home campaign.

[Webstral]

Okay, I'm piecing together a bit more on the value of airships in 2000. Were we to suppose that MilGov continues to have a C-130 in operation (which I think is open to some question), the C-130 still has its limitations. Avgas is rare and getting more rare. The C-130 can carry around 20 tons. Obviously, a niche remains, but perhaps MilGov has needs that are better met with another vehicle.

Airships on operation in the 1990's had cargo capacities greater than 20 tons. In some cases, airships could lift in excess of 100 tons for much less fuiel than making five C-130 hops. Granted, the airship isn't exactly burning up the track. There are cargoes that don't have to be there overnight every time.

Right now, I'm thinking about heavy machinery. Howling Wilderness, which I like up to the part about the climate change, mentions that the Colorado enclave is rebuilding industries from the ground up as manpower and materials allow. Airships would be a means of transporting heavy machinery from one location to Colorado. We could come up with an enormous list of the machines Colorado Springs would want, I'm sure. Whole modules could revolve around PCs searching for and securing the desired heavy machinery so that an airship extraction operation can come in and retrieve the stuff.

By the same token, strategic metals might be worth diverting an airship mission. Vanadium, tungsten, chromium, and other metals with specialized industrial applications might be too heavy for a C-130 mission; or there might not be a suitable landing site near enough to the metals for a C-130 mission. However, if the USAF can work out a system of retrieval while the airship hovers overhead (yes, I know the weather has to be right), a whole host of sites an circumstances become accessible. Really, it's rather exciting. PCs have an enormous range of possibilities that don't involve further degrading the situation in CONUS.

I'm thinking about the future of Thunder Empire and module design as a means of spurring further creativity. Phoenix has a fair amount of manufacturing. PCs might be charged with a LRS mission designed either to catalogue industrial sites in the Valley of the Sun or to search for a specific type of machinery. Although the PCs can't carry off the desired machines like they can a painting, their actions could have a direct effect on making teh machinery accessible either for an armed convoy coming in from Fort Huachuca or an airship retrieval.

Webstral

[Abbott Shaull]

Now what one of the first thing would be to find out how many one can make say few months time. How much tonnage one could move, and can you keep production up over time too.

You would want enough made initially to help move troops and their stores. This is important is giving people on your side, to put their mind at ease that they are on the right side. I mean moving a Battalion or more several hundred miles where they might be need right now is what many leader are on many leaders mind. They want to know they can get timely reinforced in times of need.

I agree the most of the fleet should be centrally located, but as your fleet grows some should be moved to the outlying fields. As replacement for those airships that have equipment failure or just for the local use. In Going Home the French III Corps used the airborne troops to make air mobile reactionary forces. These airships could be used to do the same thing. Move platoon or company from a locale to another where they can help some one who needs it now. The trouble with this, is that the people who have the means to call for help, have to realize they should be in dire straits before calling for this sky troops.

As for the need to secure land routes, this is easier said than done. It takes nothing to sever a rail line or to set up road block. Let's face it, there are too few rivers that can support commercial traffic too. You could use ultralights/airships with the rail lines too, where they ultralights scout to make sure their nothing going on with the rail line ahead of the train. Airships could be used to transport any force or engineers/labors to handle problems...

Just some thoughts...

[Targan]

As for the need to secure land routes, this is easier said than done. It takes nothing to sever a rail line or to set up road block. Let's face it, there are too few rivers that can support commercial traffic too. You could use ultralights/airships with the rail lines too, where they ultralights scout to make sure their nothing going on with the rail line ahead of the train. Airships could be used to transport any force or engineers/labors to handle problems...
I like this part. It would be very easy to make an unpowered light rail cart (like a trolley) from which an ultralight could take off, rolling along the track until the ultralight lifts away. You wouldn't even need to modify the landing gear. All you'd need to do would be to make sure that you had a suitable site to land the ultralight near the stopped train after it had completed a recon flight.

[Legbreaker]

I like the concept, but I'm not so sure the materials would be available.
Airships need gas to fly. They also need topping up from time to time due to leaks, accidents, etc.
Is the gas available in sufficient quantities to make an entire fleet practical?
Of course that assumes all the other materials are also available.

[Webstral]

Airships need fuel. Whether that fuel is gas is another question.

The availability of materials is an excellent question. One needs a framework for dirigibles, plus a buoyancy ingredient (like helium), and an airbag. The carriage should not be a big deal, although I’m no expert. So long as there is a lighter-than-air mechanism, an airbag, and a framework, one should be able to create an airship.

Several members of the crew of Columbia have long experience with airships. It may very well be possible to turn this experience into practical knowledge regarding basic design, materials, and the like. In any event, there should be written materials in the Denver and Colorado Springs public libraries on LTA ships. Provided the PCs rescue suitable members of Columbia’s crew, they should be able to combine their knowledge with that of surviving USAF personnel, surviving engineers in the Colorado enclave, and printed references.

Based on my reading thus far, I believe the factors to be balanced are the volume of the airbag, the structural strength of the airframe, and the type of gas used to provide buoyancy. The greater the volume of the airbag, the greater the lifting power of the airship. Obviously, greater lifting power is better, all things being equal. However, an airbag of greater volume requires a larger airframe. Larger zeppelin airframes are probably harder to construct than smaller airframes. However, I’m not at the point in my research where I can speak on the matter with any sort of authority whatsoever.

The materials of the airframe might be an issue, as well. Obviously, lighter and stronger are better qualities. Aluminum would seem to be an ideal substance, as it is both light and strong. How difficult an aluminum airframe would be to fabricate in the Colorado enclave in 2000 is beyond my ability to say at the moment. It would seem that there would be a good deal of scrap aluminum around, including unusable airframes. Again, how readily heavier-than-air airframes might be turned into LTA airframes is unknown to me.

Another option might be wood and epoxy. The Germans created an airframe out of wood and epoxy at the end of the Second World War. I’m sure the engineering issues change when one talks about turning the technology for a fighter airframe into the airframe for an LTA a hundred feet long intended to lift fifty tons or more. Still, the possibility exists that wood and epoxy might yield good results. Wood, at least, is still plentiful in Colorado of 2000. How difficult it might be to manufacture the right kind of epoxy is another unknown to me. However, it have more confidence that epoxy could be created in Colorado of 2000 than scrap aluminum could be turned into a reliable airframe.

The airbag is another issue. Still, knowledge of the tensile strength of various materials isn’t exactly a secret. Again, a public or college library should have such information. Getting the right kind of material might be more of a challenge. Hot air balloons probably could be recycled into airship airbag material. I’m a bit more dubious about the ability of MilGov to manufacture more of the right kind of materials from scratch. However, it seems to me that we’re really only talking about extruding polymers for a petroleum-based fabric. MilGov has petroleum in Colorado, if not in large amounts. With the right machines, Colorado should be able to work its magic. This leads me back to missions for the PCs.

Of course, airships require rather large hangers or some other handling facilities. These would have to be constructed. Altogether, the construction of an airship fleet would be a very significant undertaking. But the payoff! The ability to move men and machines by air from one MilGov cantonment to the other would be gigantic. If MilGov in Colorado had or could make spare parts for the Cairo, IL refinery that could bring the facility back to something like its full production potential, the impact on MilGov enclaves throughout the Mississippi Valley would be incredible.


Webstral

[Fusilier]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather? The larger the more difficult to handle? I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.

[Targan]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather? The larger the more difficult to handle? I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.
I agree. The airships talked about in Airlords of the Ozarks were all of the Lifting Body Airship design so they can handle adverse weather a little better than a standard blimp or zeppelin and are more fuel efficient but only in calm weather or a breeze would have have optimum performance. A tail wind they could handle okay but a cross wind or a head wind will degrade their performance. A gale would be very dangerous and could possibly only be negotiated if it was a tail wind. I predict that trying to fly any airhip in a storm would be suicidal.

To a certain extent an airship pilot could try to use changes in altitude to find more favourable wind conditions but in an unpressurised gondola and without oxygen there would be a similar upper limit to that experienced by pilots all the way back to World War One.

[Webstral]

How susceptible are these to adverse weather? The larger the more difficult to handle? I recall this was a difficulty in German aircraft when bombing London in WW1. With no weather reports coming in, you could have an aircraft in trouble very quickly before they realize.

On the contrary, the reading I've been doing online claims that the larger airships are more stable than the smaller ones. The analogy is larger ships (like supertankers) compared to smaller ships. The buffeting of waves is felt less by the larger ships; the buffeting of wind is felt less by larger airships because they have greater inertia.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

But with a larger surface area for the winds to act upon, it would require a stronger airframe (with corresponding greater weight) to handle the increased forces placed upon it.

[Webstral]

True--just as a supertanker requires a structure capable of supporting the its larger hull and mass vis-a-vis a smaller tanker. The airship designers of 2001 are going to have to find the limits of their fabrication capabilities and build within them.

Esteemed colleagues, I’m reading a lot of idle speculation about the ability of airships to do the simple task of moving cargo while there’s a stiff breeze blowing--as if somehow LTA was a new technology with no track record. German-operated airships in the 1930’s were a quantum leap ahead of the machines that bombed London during the First World War. Large airships carried luxury passengers at a high price. The affluent of the Depression would not have paid today’s equivalent of thousands of dollars for a shaky ride on a deathtrap. All this was sixty years prior to the events of Twilight: 2000.

There are specific challenges to be overcome in the construction and operation of airships in Twilight: 2000. Let’s address them rather than try to rewrite aeronautical history with unfounded observations about suicide trips and the like. Here are a couple of ideas for objections to airships:

Q: Where’s the helium going to come from?
A: Good question. The map Kato provided is a good starting point. As a matter of interest, there are also small helium mines in Arizona, too. In addition to being found in natural gas fields, helium is a byproduct of U-235 decay; so wherever uranium is mined one gets pockets of helium. At any rate, very substantial supplies are available in Oklahoma and the Texas Panhandle—territory MilGov controls.

Q: What if helium can’t be made available?
A: Then MilGov uses hydrogen.

Q: Isn’t hydrogen much too dangerous? What about the Hindenburg?
A: The use of hydrogen is dangerous. “Too dangerous” is a judgment call. If MilGov deems airship operation sufficiently critical, then the Air Force will use hydrogen-lifted airships. It’s been done. There are ways to mitigate the danger, too. One of the Hindenburg’s problems was that it was designed for helium use but wound up using hydrogen because the US imposed an embargo on helium sales to Germany.

Q: Aren’t airships just too vulnerable to bad weather?
A: Transatlantic airship travel operated for years. The weather in the North Atlantic is as nasty as it is anywhere in the world. Unpressurized airships couldn’t simply fly above it. They had to fly through it; yet somehow they got repeat passengers. Yes, bad weather presents a problem. No, it is not an insurmountable problem. If it were, there’d have been no airship industry. Airships continue to operate today, albeit in niche applications. Again, there is a cost-benefit ratio in the minds of MilGov that must be considered.

Q: Can a proper airframe for an airship be manufactured in Colorado in 2000?
A: Now we’re getting somewhere. The answer is that I don’t know. The technology isn’t mysterious. The San Francisco public library has a few relevant titles. Even the Marin County library system has one. Colorado Springs is the home of the USAF Academy. You can bet there will be a few volumes on airships in there. Although I can’t perform the engineering, it’s not cutting edge technology. Surely there are a few engineers left in Colorado who can do the work. The real question is whether or not a workable airframe can be manufactured given the conditions in Colorado. There is plenty of aluminum around, given that plenty of aircraft will be grounded at commercial airports and military airfields. If making the airships commands sufficiently high priority, there is electricity available from the surviving nuke plant for rendering scrap aluminum. If anyone has the personnel necessary to do the work on a new airframe, the Joint Chiefs have those people.

Q: What materials will be used for the airbag?
A: Another good question. I’ve given that one the best answer I can earlier in the thread. At the very least, the wreckage of the Columbia might be used to build a couple of small airships to get the ball rolling. The technology to construct the skin of an airship isn’t new. The real trick is producing or finding enough material of the desired tensile strength to skin airships. Scavenging hot air balloons might be a good place to start.

Q: How about the fuel?
A: Since the airship doesn’t require thrust to achieve lift, aviation gas probably isn’t necessary. In any event, an airship will use much energy to move a ton of cargo than a heavier-than-aircraft.

Q: How will the airship be made a viable military platform?
A: If the airship can be made into a gunship, that’s a bonus. The primary role of the airship is to move cargo between friendly areas that are separated by hostile territory. The airship is an air truck with a technology and resource requirements that are within the capabilities of MilGov in early 2001

Q: Can all of this be done in a cost-effective manner?
A: Now we’ve come to the $64,000 question. I don’t know the answer. I see the Joint Chiefs in a tough spot. Even without the meteorological changes of Howling Wilderness, MilGov has real problems. More than half the nation’s population is dead. The prewar stocks of fuel are gone. The prewar machines are breaking down. A fragile equilibrium seems to have come over the nation by the beginning of 2001, but many forces are at work to shatter that equilibrium. If the pieces of the industrial society are not put back together such that they can reinforce each other as they must to survive, then America will slide further backwards into the darkness. An industrial society requires an effective and working transportation network. The remnants of the US infrastructure will be breaking up soon, and the routes are menaced by brigands. The remaining MilGov enclaves cannot support each other because they are separated by miles of hostile territory.
Along comes the airship from Missouri. Granted, someone could have thought of it before; but no one did. Colorado Springs has something like three million people and surpluses such that the Joint Chiefs are considering reopening the Denver mint. They have an agricultural base, manufacturing, a limited budget of fossil fuels from Wyoming, limited minerals from mines in the Rockies, academic and engineers, and an army. Husbanding these resources won’t necessarily propagate them. If ever there was an investment that could arrest the downward spiral, airships are that investment.
Granted, airships aren’t going to replace rail and shipping for bulk cargoes. While it might be practical to move some seed from one location to another, the volume of food necessary to keep tens or hundreds of thousands of people alive probably can’t be moved by airship. Ammunition, rifles, machine guns, and mortars probably can be moved to critical locations. Critical machines and spare parts probably can be moved to keep what has survived to this point functional a while longer. High-value raw materials might be moved. Experts can be moved from place to place to increase agricultural and industrial productivity. Infantry can be moved from place to place so that the nation’s surviving military resources can be concentrated for decisive action. All-important lubricants can be moved. Did I mention the spare parts? Just getting working radios into all of the MilGov cantonments will change everything. Once the Joint Chiefs see the possibilities, I believe they will commit everything they can to assembling a fleet of airships to turn the downward spiral right side up.

In the end, there’s a degree of suspension of disbelief required. A great deal is simply unknown. I do think that airships in Colorado are not a very significant drain on one’s stock of suspension of disbelief. They are the right technology for the occasion.

Webstral

[Targan]

Q: Aren’t airships just too vulnerable to bad weather?
A: Transatlantic airship travel operated for years. The weather in the North Atlantic is as nasty as it is anywhere in the world. Unpressurized airships couldn’t simply fly above it. They had to fly through it; yet somehow they got repeat passengers. Yes, bad weather presents a problem. No, it is not an insurmountable problem. If it were, there’d have been no airship industry. Airships continue to operate today, albeit in niche applications. Again, there is a cost-benefit ratio in the minds of MilGov that must be considered.
I'm not an idiot and I know something of history. Yes zeppelins were used for trans-Atlantic travel. But they were absolutely HUGE craft with lots of leeway in their load and stress bearing frames. Isn't the discussion we are having about airships of a similar size to those described in Airlords of the Ozarks? I'm pretty sure a lighter-than-air craft of that size is going to have a really tough time of things in a gale or a storm.

[Webstral]

I'm not an idiot and I know something of history. Yes zeppelins were used for trans-Atlantic travel. But they were absolutely HUGE craft with lots of leeway in their load and stress bearing frames. Isn't the discussion we are having about airships of a similar size to those described in Airlords of the Ozarks? I'm pretty sure a lighter-than-air craft of that size is going to have a really tough time of things in a gale or a storm.

1) There are currently airships of a variety of sizes operating in many locations. Some of them are even forced to deal with rough weather from time to time.
2) We're talking about airships of whatever size is going to be feasible. Obviously, bigger is better, provided suitable airframes can be fabricated.
3) Let's suppose we are limited to the small, slow airships of Airlords of the Ozarks and that they do have a tough time in extreme weather. What of it? Having experienced airship pilots available will help the new crews learn the do's and don'ts quickly. If airships can accomplish the mission by adjusting their operational patterns and accepting a certain loss rate, then a collection of posthumous Air Medals for the airship crews who became casualties is just one more price to be paid. It's sad for the air crews, but we do make a habit of discussing the deaths of millions in our fictional world.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

While I believe airships are a good idea on the whole, the construction and use of them may be resisted by some in positions of command.
The resources that are required to construct airships are probably in high demand for other projects also. Yes, airships might speed up general recovery, but it only takes one quick look through history to see how slow changes to thinking can take...

Yes they will be built and put to use but I doubt very many would be constructed very quickly - maybe a handful a year.

[Targan]

I think that MilGov would be very, very careful not to lose any airships to catastrophic failure because once available stores of helium are gone that is it. You could power airships using internal combustion engines burning a variety of fuels (including alcohol or biodiesel) but I can't see anybody but the French being able to produce helium in industrial quantities in the decade after the nukes fly. And I very much doubt that hydrogen would be seen as a viable lifting gas option by the poor bastards expected to fly the airships.

[kato13]

but I can't see anybody but the French being able to produce helium in industrial quantities in the decade after the nukes fly.

Helium production is dependent on geology not technology. Numerous Helium refinery plants were developed in the US with World War I level technology. As for the resource itself, by a fluke of geography the US plain states are rich in Helium. The French simply don't have the gas resource. It is possible they could get it from Tunisian natural gas facilities, but it is not present within their borders. Poland and Russia have the remaining major sources. These will be mapped out in my new resource map.

[Targan]

Helium production is dependent on geology not technology. Numerous Helium refinery plants were developed in the US with World War I level technology. As for the resource itself, by a fluke of geography the US plain states are rich in Helium. The French simply don't have the gas resource.
In that case perhaps MilGov could benefit from an arrangement with CivGov (which has significant control among the plain states IIRC). Perhaps CivGov could be encouraged to get a helium production process online in exchange for MilGov assistance to build a few airships of its own.

[kato13]

Milgov would have forces near the refinery plants in Colorado and Oklahoma. I actually think they are dominant in Kansas as well. Unfortunately I cannot overlay resources and units.

http://games.juhlin.com/images/helium_locations.jpg


http://games.juhlin.com/images/helium_units2.jpg

The 95th Infantry, the 100th Infantry and the 49 Armored are all near Helium refineries.

[Targan]

Ah. I'm not having much luck with this thread am I. I think I'll just shut up now.

[kato13]

Ah. I'm not having much luck with this thread am I. I think I'll just shut up now.

Didn't mean to undercut you but I happened to be working on that data (Both the Mexican unit locations and Helium resources). The Mexicans have nearly overrun the Helium Reserve. That could make for some interesting conflict.

[Adm.Lee]

Regarding weather, one of the most experienced Zeppelin pilots was asked about how he dealt with flying through bad weather in his long career. His answer: "I always fly around storms." And this is with 1900-1930 weather reporting.

It's a bit simplistic, but I think if the crew is cautious enough and the mission planners are aware of the difficulties, weather should not be that much of a problem.

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, it's not as if airships could be considered as "rapid response units" when airlifting troops. Anyone waiting for the airships cargos, whatever they are, will have to expect it's not going to be quick. Might actually be faster in some cases to load up a few trucks and send a few light AFVs for protection. Not necessarily as economical, but faster...

Airships have the benefit of being able to access remote areas away from roads, bypass ground obstacles, and fly above the effective range of small arms. Definately a place for them, but they'll never replace ground based transportation options in the majority of cases.

[Abbott Shaull]

Hmm, it's not as if airships could be considered as "rapid response units" when airlifting troops. Anyone waiting for the airships cargos, whatever they are, will have to expect it's not going to be quick. Might actually be faster in some cases to load up a few trucks and send a few light AFVs for protection. Not necessarily as economical, but faster...

Airships have the benefit of being able to access remote areas away from roads, bypass ground obstacles, and fly above the effective range of small arms. Definately a place for them, but they'll never replace ground based transportation options in the majority of cases.

No the airship wouldn't be my first choice either. In fact it wouldn't be a choice. The point is it would be a cheap show and tell tool. I wouldn't personally want one near a battlefield, too big of target for anyone who isn't in a panic state.

Many areas will still have Armored/Mechanized/Motorized reactionary force that would be able to get there much faster. What I was thinking about, were threats that were much larger force in which the initial unit and the reactionary force can't repel. Remember the units can only control is limited to where their troops are at the moment, but claim to control a much larger area.

Also remember the type of force that may be large enough carry off significant attacks, would be full of troops that are unreliable. Even a Platoon or Company size force coming onto the field from the flank could throw a good size of any attack force into a panic.

[Legbreaker]

I wasn't meaning JUST troops though but urgent medical supplies, important documents, etc, etc, etc.
Yes, the airship is vulnerable in combat if it gets too low and the enemy have decent weaponry (even an old blackpowder rifle might cause some problems). However, they can still be used as effective weapons platforms by simply flying them at a few thousand feet and dropping hand grenades and explosives. Even tipping buckets of stones and shrapnel might cause issues to ground targets provided the aim is right...

Close up they're slow, big and unweildy bullet magnets. Altitude and the ability to move over inacessible terrain is their strength.

[Webstral]

Definately a place for them, but they'll never replace ground based transportation options in the majority of cases.
The point is it would be a cheap show and tell tool. Many areas will still have Armored/Mechanized/Motorized reactionary force that would be able to get there much faster.

“We need information. We need to know who these people are, where they got the factories and workers to build airships. We need those things for ourselves. God knows it would be nice to move troops and supplies around the country and not have to fight damned marauder bands at every river crossing!” (Airlords of the Ozarks, p.7)

I doubt I could say it any better. Regardless of how the New Americans use their airships, the airship is a platform for strategic mobility. If well-armed truck convoys were both practical and practicable for connecting non-contiguous MilGov enclaves, the convoys would be rolling. I agree that truck convoys (and maybe even rail) are probably possible between Colorado and many area of Oklahoma. I’m sure a special effort could be made from time to time to collect enough trucks, AFV, and other necessities for a rolling convoy to move from Oklahoma to southern Illinois. Given the state of the country in late 2000/early 2001, do we really believe that any truck convoy that could be fueled and maintained on the road could be forced through from the Mississippi to New Jersey or Virginia? These Atlantic seaboard locations might be linked with MilGov cantonments along the Mississippi with sea traffic moving through the Gulf of Mexico and up the Mississippi, except that doesn’t seem to be happening, either. Another way has to be found. I think you both are dead right about the total misapplication of the airship as a tactical weapon or even as a tactical transport. Legbreaker, I think you are hearing what I am trying to say. The airship a slow, fuel-stingy, unglamorous and somewhat dangerous airborne cargo hauler.

Webstral

[natehale1971]

“We need information. We need to know who these people are, where they got the factories and workers to build airships. We need those things for ourselves. God knows it would be nice to move troops and supplies around the country and not have to fight damned marauder bands at every river crossing!” (Airlords of the Ozarks, p.7)

I doubt I could say it any better. Regardless of how the New Americans use their airships, the airship is a platform for strategic mobility. If well-armed truck convoys were both practical and practicable for connecting non-contiguous MilGov enclaves, the convoys would be rolling. I agree that truck convoys (and maybe even rail) are probably possible between Colorado and many area of Oklahoma. I’m sure a special effort could be made from time to time to collect enough trucks, AFV, and other necessities for a rolling convoy to move from Oklahoma to southern Illinois. Given the state of the country in late 2000/early 2001, do we really believe that any truck convoy that could be fueled and maintained on the road could be forced through from the Mississippi to New Jersey or Virginia? These Atlantic seaboard locations might be linked with MilGov cantonments along the Mississippi with sea traffic moving through the Gulf of Mexico and up the Mississippi, except that doesn’t seem to be happening, either. Another way has to be found. I think you both are dead right about the total misapplication of the airship as a tactical weapon or even as a tactical transport. Legbreaker, I think you are hearing what I am trying to say. The airship a slow, fuel-stingy, unglamorous and somewhat dangerous airborne cargo hauler.

Webstral

Quite right Mr. Webstral. Airships might not seem to be a good idea, but Strategically and Logistically they are exactly what is needed in a post-Apoc setting. Hell, My Morrow Project game has airships as a way that most large master traders get their products from A to B without getting attacked by 'marauders' and 'radiers' that fill the world.

The ridgid-hulled Zeppelins would be something that could easily be used to get really, really high up. At one time Popular Mechanics had an article that showed the USAF and USN where working on a program that would have used HUGE Zeps for in fight refuelling, and even use them for surveillence or extending the range of communications. If anyone knows where to find that article, i'd love to see it again...

[kato13]

At one time Popular Mechanics had an article that showed the USAF and USN where working on a program that would have used HUGE Zeps for in fight refuelling, and even use them for surveillence or extending the range of communications.

I remember another PM article on placing a patriot missile battery on an airship. It would have solved the problem of Radar null areas from ground based radars as well as extending range as the missiles would start at altitude.

[natehale1971]

I remember another PM article on placing a patriot missile battery on an airship. It would have solved the problem of Radar null areas from ground based radars as well as extending range as the missiles would start at altitude.

Considering how the satellittes in the cannon timeline, the use of those old-fashioned 'weather balloons' from the late-1940s and early-1950s that could be used along with stationary zeps as communications hubs that could expand the range of communications (kind of like Cellphone towers).

[Legbreaker]

Airships - great for transporting high value, low urgency but vital equipment, information and people.
Terrible for tactical situations, but still combat able in a strategic "bomber" type role.

All in all, very useful but extremely vulnerable when used by the wrong people using wrong tactics.

Resourcewise, they are likely to be expensive to set up and maintain, and other projects (such as repairing rail lines for example) are going to be screaming should too much be allocated to the airships.

[natehale1971]

Airships - great for transporting high value, low urgency but vital equipment, information and people.
Terrible for tactical situations, but still combat able in a strategic "bomber" type role.

All in all, very useful but extremely vulnerable when used by the wrong people using wrong tactics.

Resourcewise, they are likely to be expensive to set up and maintain, and other projects (such as repairing rail lines for example) are going to be screaming should too much be allocated to the airships.

Not really... You can operate both at the same time. The Airships use an entirely different set-up of supplies. And could actually be developed side-by-side. The use of airships could get the heavy equipment and supplies into areas where they are needed to repair the railroads (and can provide additional security for the teams doing the repairs).

In all, airships would be a safer method of getting things moved, while railroads could be seen as a faster means. But capable of being hijacked by maraduers who can destroy the rails and bridges. You would have to put guards on those rails to protect them. While airships would only need guarded aerodomes. Putting them into the middle of the secure enclaves would fix that.

[Webstral]

All in all, very useful but extremely vulnerable when used by the wrong people using wrong tactics.

So true! So lamentably true! No doubt there will be some tragic incidents in the years ahead.

Resourcewise, they are likely to be expensive to set up and maintain...

Also quite true. Provided the resources for investment in a useful number of airships exists, the planners in the Colorado enclave will be looking carefully at the return on investment (ROI). There should be some lively discussions over the next few years in Colorado Springs.

...and other projects (such as repairing rail lines for example) are going to be screaming should too much be allocated to the airships.

I wonder about the priority for rail in early 2001. Granted, the rail infrastructure in Milgov's capitol will have suffered some damage since late 1997. The movement of bulk goods by rail within the Colorado-Oklahoma region certainly makes excellent sense, given the well-known fuel efficiency of rail and the availability of oil in Oklahoma. Beyond that, though, where are the rails going to lead? Attempting to push trains through warlord- and marauder-controlled territory is not likely to yield good results. Rail is even more vulnerable to interdiction than a road network. The same problem exists for all the isolated MilGov enclaves and cantonments.

Once the airships have done their work by improving agricultural output, industrial output, and moving military resources to critical areas, MilGov will enjoy a growing number of contiguous friendly-controlled territories. Then the rail advocates are going to justifiably want a greater allocation of resources. Ironically, the more successful the airships are in a given timeframe, the more quickly their very success will cause them to be replaced as the prime movers of goods and people. I believe Faust experienced a similar phenomenon.

Webstral

[Legbreaker]

Rail was just the first example that sprang to mind. I could just as easily have said pretty much anything.

The resources that would be competed for mainly would be people, technical expertise, energy (electricty, etc) and fuel to shift the required materials to the construction areas.

In 2000 and onwards all those resources would be in extremely short supply requiring the leaders and decision makers to make some very tough choices.

[Webstral]

In 2000 and onwards all those resources woudl be in extremely short supply requiring the leaders and decision makers to make some very tough choices.

Agreed. I wonder if the Joint Chiefs will start to experience health problems like the successive presidents after Thanksgiving, 1997.

Webstral

[Ed the Coastie]

Airships are a good idea, but I doubt that what remains of the USAF would be putting all of their eggs -- and resources -- in one basket. Airships may be produced for transport and strategic bombing purposes, but I suspect that we would also see the return of light WWI-style, cropduster-like aircraft (something along the lines of a Curtiss JN-4D Jenny) that can operate from crude landing strips and have been modified to burn regular gasoline. You wouldn't get much airlift out of them, but they would be ideal for providing local air superiority.

[Raellus]

Here in Tucson, with the annual golf tournaments around town (Tiger's been here the last two years), I get to see a variety of blimps floating about on a fairly routine basis. Last year, a semi-rigid frame German airship operated out of the regional airport two miles from where I teach, for about a week.

Anyway, it's surprising how fast they get around. I honestly couldn't tell you the average blimp/airship's top speed, but their ability to overfly tricky terrain types (rivers, hills, swamps, etc.) and bypass roads lets them get to places faster than trucks travelling the same distances.

The other thing they've got going for them is that they are extremely quiet. You really don't know they're around until you actually see them coming. Granted, that's not too hard, but they are really quite stealthy, sound-wise.

[Targan]

The other thing they've got going for them is that they are extremely quiet. You really don't know they're around until you actually see them coming. Granted, that's not too hard, but they are really quite stealthy, sound-wise.
So night ops would be their preferred MO then?

(Yes I'm having another crack at commenting in this thread - hopefully I'll start making some sense).

[natehale1971]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then?

(Yes I'm having another crack at commenting in this thread - hopefully I'll start making some sense).

Military Airships during WW1 worked primarily at night. If you get a chance to research it, look up Peter Strasser. A WW1 German Airship commander who was one of the best the Germans had. He was actually respected by the British, when he was killed the British treated him to a military funeral with full honors just like they had gave the Red Baron. During WW2 the british flew stationary blimps all throughout london to keep fighters from flying low to the ground.

[kato13]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then?

(Yes I'm having another crack at commenting in this thread - hopefully I'll start making some sense).

I have absolutely no disagreement with what Targan said above ;), In fact I support it.

[Webstral]

Targan, what I probably ought to have said already is that differing opinions are what makes a final product strong. I get a lot out of being challenged. I'm forced to do more research, and I'm forced to look at things I thought I knew. The more I read, the more I come to believe that it will be many years before Colorado Springs can attempt an Akron class of airship. I've been obliged to look at the Colorado-Oklahoma-western Kansas economy in an attempt to formulate some rational idea of how many people can be freed for industry of every type. Obviously, only a small number of them can be diverted to something like airship production, as every day life requires items like ammunition, soap, and clothes.

Webstral

[TiggerCCW UK]

During WW2 the british flew stationary bli@mps all throughout london to keep fighters from flying low to the ground.

Sorry Natehale, those weren't blimps, they were unmanned balloons called barrage balloons. They were used throughout the uk and even off the back of ships. Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly building, is near where I live, and along the sides of the driveway up to it you can still see some of the baseplates where barrage balloons were tethered.

[natehale1971]

Sorry Natehale, those weren't blimps, they were unmanned balloons called barrage balloons. They were used throughout the uk and even off the back of ships. Stormont, the Northern Ireland Assembly building, is near where I live, and along the sides of the driveway up to it you can still see some of the baseplates where barrage balloons were tethered.

I knew they where unmanned, i just didn't know what they where called... To me, the pictures i saw looked like what we call blimps here. :) But thanks for telling me what they where. I have always wondered... didn't they use them to hold up metal nets?

[TiggerCCW UK]

Sorry, when you said blimp I thought you meant they'd been manned. Not sure about the nets but I think they did dangle cables from them, as well as the mooring cable. If I'm down towards Stormont anytime soon I'll try and get a photo of the base mountings, although they aren't particularly inspiring, just concrete blocks with rings through time iirc.

[Raellus]

So night ops would be their preferred MO then?

I'd say a big yes to that.

I had to pick up my son from his preschool last year. I had to drive about 7 miles (averaging about 45mph) and cross through a narrow pass between two high hills to get there. The airship I mentioned took off from the regional airport at about the same time that I got started.

I got to my son's classroom, signed him out and was walking him back to the parking lot when a large shadow blotted out the sun. I looked up, and there, about 300m or so away, was the airship. All I could hear of it was the faint thrumming of its motors. If I hadn't have been outdoors, I wouldn't have heard it at all, I don't think.

I can see blimps/airships being extremely useful in inserting teams by parachute at night.

[Nowhere Man 1966]

I'd say a big yes to that.

I had to pick up my son from his preschool last year. I had to drive about 7 miles (averaging about 45mph) and cross through a narrow pass between two high hills to get there. The airship I mentioned took off from the regional airport at about the same time that I got started.

I got to my son's classroom, signed him out and was walking him back to the parking lot when a large shadow blotted out the sun. I looked up, and there, about 300m or so away, was the airship. All I could hear of it was the faint thrumming of its motors. If I hadn't have been outdoors, I wouldn't have heard it at all, I don't think.

I can see blimps/airships being extremely useful in inserting teams by parachute at night.

I remember when they blew up Three River's Stadium in Pittsburgh to make room for the two new stadia that was being built at the time, the Good Year Blimo covered the implosion from the air. After it was over on TV, the Good Year Blimp went on it's way back to Akron, Ohio and it flew really low over my house. Before I saw it, I heard it's engines, it sounded like a huge swarm of bees, it even scared my poor cats.

Chuck

[kato13]

I remember when they blew up Three River's Stadium in Pittsburgh to make room for the two new stadia that was being built at the time, the Good Year Blimo covered the implosion from the air. After it was over on TV, the Good Year Blimp went on it's way back to Akron, Ohio and it flew really low over my house. Before I saw it, I heard it's engines, it sounded like a huge swarm of bees, it even scared my poor cats.

Chuck

I remember when I worked for the Firestone tire company, I felt it was my corporate duty to plan a take down of the Goodyear blimps. Just in Case our corporate cold war ever went hot :D

[Targan]

Epic thread necromancy for great justice!

The airship described in this article seems to be of a Lifting Body Airship design like those described in Airlords of the Ozarks: The world's largest aircraft has been unveiled - and it's a mammoth (http://io9.com/the-worlds-largest-aircraft-has-been-unveiled-and-i-1533642106?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_facebook&utm_source=io9_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow)

The title is a bit confusing though. It's not really a mammoth :D

[kalos72]

After reading this post again...I love this idea for a comms satellite.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/tars.htm

[Wolf sword]

Here is a Nova program about WW One Zeppelin.
Their is a lot of info about how they work.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/zeppelin-terror-attack.html

[WallShadow]

In the name of thread necromancy, I command thee....RISE!!!! (pun intended):D

Airships need fuel. Whether that fuel is gas is another question.

The availability of materials is an excellent question. One needs a framework for dirigibles, plus a buoyancy ingredient (like helium), and an airbag. The carriage should not be a big deal, although I’m no expert. So long as there is a lighter-than-air mechanism, an airbag, and a framework, one should be able to create an airship.

Several members of the crew of Columbia have long experience with airships. It may very well be possible to turn this experience into practical knowledge regarding basic design, materials, and the like. In any event, there should be written materials in the Denver and Colorado Springs public libraries on LTA ships. Provided the PCs rescue suitable members of Columbia’s crew, they should be able to combine their knowledge with that of surviving USAF personnel, surviving engineers in the Colorado enclave, and printed references.

Based on my reading thus far, I believe the factors to be balanced are the volume of the airbag, the structural strength of the airframe, and the type of gas used to provide buoyancy. The greater the volume of the airbag, the greater the lifting power of the airship. Obviously, greater lifting power is better, all things being equal. However, an airbag of greater volume requires a larger airframe. Larger zeppelin airframes are probably harder to construct than smaller airframes. However, I’m not at the point in my research where I can speak on the matter with any sort of authority whatsoever.

The materials of the airframe might be an issue, as well. Obviously, lighter and stronger are better qualities. Aluminum would seem to be an ideal substance, as it is both light and strong. How difficult an aluminum airframe would be to fabricate in the Colorado enclave in 2000 is beyond my ability to say at the moment. It would seem that there would be a good deal of scrap aluminum around, including unusable airframes. Again, how readily heavier-than-air airframes might be turned into LTA airframes is unknown to me.
Another option might be wood and epoxy. The Germans created an airframe out of wood and epoxy at the end of the Second World War. I’m sure the engineering issues change when one talks about turning the technology for a fighter airframe into the airframe for an LTA a hundred feet long intended to lift fifty tons or more. Still, the possibility exists that wood and epoxy might yield good results. Wood, at least, is still plentiful in Colorado of 2000. How difficult it might be to manufacture the right kind of epoxy is another unknown to me. However, it have more confidence that epoxy could be created in Colorado of 2000 than scrap aluminum could be turned into a reliable airframe.

I'm with you on the epoxy angle, but there are other framing materials suitable and strong enough to form an effective airframe. Pultruded fiberglass/epoxy rods are fiberglass cables/strands stretched lengthwise, encased in epoxy resin, and cured. Think dome tent frame material only longer and thicker. These are being manufactured in at least one factory in Pennsylvania (and were, within the timeframe of the Twilight War). The combination of strength, lightness, and flexibility make the product suitable for heavy-structures--the owner of the factory told me that a large-diameter--around 3 or 4 inches-- model of their product was being used for safety rails at Disney World and had stood up to much punishment and didn't rust or degrade from constant exposure to the elements. Smaller diameter models were also in production, some solid, some with a hollow core. As an aside, I was exploring sources for making spears shafts for the SCA, and pultruded fiberglass was one of the options. Ya never know just when one bit of info comes in handy.;)
Also, lifting gas can be obtained in small caches from shoppes that offer helium balloons--a tank here, a tank there, and if you can luck into an industrial gas supplier, a whole bunch of tanks there. Also, if helium is the major lifting gas, it could be supplemented by a central hot air ballonet which could provide raw lift when needed, or allow rapid descent without venting precious helium.

The airbag is another issue. Still, knowledge of the tensile strength of various materials isn’t exactly a secret. Again, a public or college library should have such information. Getting the right kind of material might be more of a challenge. Hot air balloons probably could be recycled into airship airbag material. I’m a bit more dubious about the ability of MilGov to manufacture more of the right kind of materials from scratch. However, it seems to me that we’re really only talking about extruding polymers for a petroleum-based fabric. MilGov has petroleum in Colorado, if not in large amounts. With the right machines, Colorado should be able to work its magic. This leads me back to missions for the PCs.
Here's where the aramid, et al, fibers and fabrics come in; high-tech ripstop nylon, kevlar, nomex, etc. Racing sail manufacturing has embraced these materials to make relatively invulnerable sails. Modern airship designers have, too.
Of course, airships require rather large hangers or some other handling facilities. These would have to be constructed. Altogether, the construction of an airship fleet would be a very significant undertaking. But the payoff! The ability to move men and machines by air from one MilGov cantonment to the other would be gigantic. If MilGov in Colorado had or could make spare parts for the Cairo, IL refinery that could bring the facility back to something like its full production potential, the impact on MilGov enclaves throughout the Mississippi Valley would be incredible.
Webstral
So, I take it Akron, OH, would be a prize location to any wannabe blimp driving organization. The Goodyear blimp and its hangars are still there, AFAIK.

[swaghauler]

I was reading about how you thought one might construct an airship. your concerns about resources are unfounded if you have access to the resources of a military base or air base.

First. The range and speed of the Airships in the posts above are VERY SLOW. Even an improvised prop motor could push a Blimp at 80km to 100km per hour. The typical range at about 90km per hour would EASILY be 1000km with a standard sized fuel tank.

Aluminum would be (and is) the metal of choice. Airships can have multiple Gas Bags inside the superstructure and these bags can be made out of the same fabrics as hot air balloons. Old parachutes would make good material for the bags. You can seal them by simply coating them with either wax or mass produced pine resin. Just double stitch every seam and seal them with the materials above.

The gas is harder but can be generated anywhere IF YOU ARE WILLING TO USE HYDROGEN GAS.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 1:

Put an electrical current through ordinary water. If you use salt as an electrolyte, you can generate the gas with as little as 1.5 Volts of electricity. This method generates BOTH Hydrogen Gas AND Oxygen Gas (which is useful in a variety of ways). Carbon Graphite (from a #2 pencil) will make a good "electrode" in order to boost current flow from your electric source WITHOUT
contaminating your gas.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 2:

Mix Hydrochloric Acid and Zinc. This dangerous method will generate huge quantities of gas but also harmful byproducts. The reaction and acid byproduct are BOTH dangerous.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 3:

Put water in drain cleaner (or any product containing Sodium Hydroxide) or mix water with shredded aluminum foil (or aluminum dust) over low heat.



As you can see, there are a number of ways to make Hydrogen Gas that can be scaled up. You just have to be willing to live with the potential fire hazard of the gas.

As you can see, blimps are a very easy technology to reproduce in Twilight2000.

[WallShadow]

Aluminum would be (and is) the metal of choice. Airships can have multiple Gas Bags inside the superstructure and these bags can be made out of the same fabrics as hot air balloons. Old parachutes would make good material for the bags. You can seal them by simply coating them with either wax or mass produced pine resin. Just double stitch every seam and seal them with the materials above.


ISTR that the zeppellins used lots and lots of "goldbeater's skin" to line the ballonets to contain the Hydrogen. Luckily they later moved to using gelatine-impregnated cotton layer between two more structurally strong fabrics.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 1:

Put an electrical current through ordinary water. If you use salt as an electrolyte, you can generate the gas with as little as 1.5 Volts of electricity. This method generates BOTH Hydrogen Gas AND Oxygen Gas (which is useful in a variety of ways). Carbon Graphite (from a #2 pencil) will make a good "electrode" in order to boost current flow from your electric source WITHOUT
contaminating your gas.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 2:

Mix Hydrochloric Acid and Zinc. This dangerous method will generate huge quantities of gas but also harmful byproducts. The reaction and acid byproduct are BOTH dangerous.

Hydrogen Gas Generation Method 3:

Put water in drain cleaner (or any product containing Sodium Hydroxide) or mix water with shredded aluminum foil (or aluminum dust) over low heat.

As you can see, there are a number of ways to make Hydrogen Gas that can be scaled up. You just have to be willing to live with the potential fire hazard of the gas.
As you can see, blimps are a very easy technology to reproduce in Twilight2000.
Sodium Hydroxide="Washing Soda", no?

During the American Civil War, Thaddeus Lowe had gas generators that used sulphuric acid to dissolve iron filings, thus producing H2 gas and Ferric (ferrous?) sulphate, or so my long-ago Chemistry lessons are trying to convince me.

[pmulcahy11b]

The US is the world's largest producer of Helium in the world; it is a by-product of many chemical reactions, including the oil and gas industries, and is also present in large quantities in some caves, and the US has large networks of caves that contain helium pockets. I know hydrogen is easier to manufacture, but why not think about non-flammable helium for your balloons and zepplins and blimps?

[swaghauler]

ISTR that the zeppellins used lots and lots of "goldbeater's skin" to line the ballonets to contain the Hydrogen. Luckily they later moved to using gelatine-impregnated cotton layer between two more structurally strong fabrics.


Sodium Hydroxide="Washing Soda", no?

During the American Civil War, Thaddeus Lowe had gas generators that used sulphuric acid to dissolve iron filings, thus producing H2 gas and Ferric (ferrous?) sulphate, or so my long-ago Chemistry lessons are trying to convince me.

Yep. Any Sodium Hydroxide will produce at least some gas. There are more than a dozen ways to make Hydrogen gas; Those three were just off the top of my head (scary note... there are at least as many ways to make poison gas from ordinary household chemicals too).

[swaghauler]

The US is the world's largest producer of Helium in the world; it is a by-product of many chemical reactions, including the oil and gas industries, and is also present in large quantities in some caves, and the US has large networks of caves that contain helium pockets. I know hydrogen is easier to manufacture, but why not think about non-flammable helium for your balloons and zepplins and blimps?

Helium is a "Listed Material" like Nickle, Titanium, and dozens of other materials. This makes acquisition of Helium very difficult. Gathering Helium from mining will only produce small amounts compared to what an airship requires. This also raises the issue of replenishing the gas "while underway" to a destination. The replenishing gas will have to be carried onboard as well.

Hydrogen can be generated virtually anywhere (even onboard the airship) and in pretty large quantities. This common availability will trump Helium's inert nature.

It was the US government's refusal to sell Germany Helium that resulted in Hydrogen being used in the Hindenburg. The same would undoubtedly be true for any "private venture" airship.

The Helium repositories are mostly in Texas and Oklahoma, a fair distance from Colorado for gas transport in the Twilight2000 world. Getting the gas depends on whether the Government even controls the Strategic Reserve Sites anymore and would they be willing to part with the gas. Thus acquiring the gas could be an adventure in itself.

[swaghauler]

I can say that I have some experience in sailing and as many of you know, I'm doing my ground school for flying right now. Any real pilots input would be welcome here.

Airships for logistical support make a great deal of sense. As large as a small freighter. Travels as fast as a train and capable of transiting the world. The only issues seem to be acquiring the gas needed for both lifting and propulsion.

If I were building an airship, I would use wood (non-structurally) and Aluminum (either welded or pop-riveted depending on what materials I had on hand).

I would build three decks high for starters. The top deck (say about 5 meters high) would house the gas bags in two parallel rows with an inspection catwalk in between them. I'd put the airship's fuel tanks in a single line along the airship's spine over the top of the catwalk. This is for two reasons. First, The tanks being located on the dorsal line would not affect lateral trim. You could place valves and pumps fore and aft of each tank to trim the airship's pitch (the angle from nose to tail) as fuel is used. You could put gun stations at either end of the catwalk but I would have to put in a bulkhead to separate weapon's fire from the Hydrogen gas bags.

The main deck would be roughly 2 meters high and house the bridge, engine room, batteries/aux power room, and all crew and passenger's quarters.

The Cargo Deck (say about 5 meters high) would house not only the cargo but also gun mounts, a winch room that is used for both docking and cargo handling from aloft, "Gray Water" & Sewage Tanks, Hot & Cold Potable Water tanks, and food and parts storage. There would also be pipeworks for control cables, steam (for heating), water pipes, and electric cables running down the central hall of the airship (overhead, with manual valve access). The various water (and sewer) tanks would be spread across the underside of the airship. This would help with lateral trim AND protect the ship's internals from ground fire. A cargo loading ramp would be built into the airship's "chin."

I would use electric motors salvaged from cranes used in manufacturing. Most electric cranes in the 1990's are DC powered and are NOT generally computerized (most used transistorized controls). They range from 1 ton to 500 tons of capacity and can change rotation by simply reversing the polarity. Put a prop on a big crane motor and install both rudders (for horizontal yaw) and ailerons/elevators (for vertical pitch) at the rear of the prop. This could replicate the maneuverability of "vectored thrust" type engines. Since you only have an electric cable and a transistorized "control" cable going to the engine (mounted on a pylon), you could design that engine pylon to "pivot" the engine (say through up to 270 degrees of range) so you could use engine thrust to counter atmospheric conditions or movement/trim based "deflections" of the airship.

I would also put large Elevators and a Large Rudder on the rear of the airship, this is IN ADDITION TO the control surfaces on each of the FOUR Electric Motors (two forward, two aft). This, in combination with the variable geometry motors, would give the airship a great deal of maneuverability. All flight controls (including pylon rotation) would be primarily pressurized hydraulics.

These electric engines would be powered by an onboard PAIR of multi-fuel generators. A larger Main Generator and a smaller Auxillary Generator in the Engine Room. This room would also contain a large boiler for making hot/purified water AND for generating Hydrogen gas (for replenishment) and Oxygen (for cooking, medical and welding) gas.

This is just an idea of how an airship might be designed and built using the technology available after The Exchange.


Swag.