kato13
09-10-2008, 03:45 AM
Brit 04-26-2007, 09:22 AM I was given a cutting from a British 'quality' newspaper concerning "estimated times for the disappearance of Man's traces". I don't know anything else about the article and, obviously, I can't state the paper's original source, however...
The times are:
'Immediately': Most endangered species start recovering. [Are we responsible for all extinctions?]
24 - 48 hours: Light pollution ended.
3 months: Air pollution (nitrogen and sulphur oxides) lessens.
Within 10 years: Methane in atmosphere gone.
Within 20 years: Rural roads and villages overgrown. GM crops disappear.
Within 50 years: Fish stocks recover. Nitrates and phosphates in water gone.
50 to 100 years: Urban streets and buildings overgrown.
100 years: Wooden buildings decay.
100 to 200 years: Bridges collapse.
Within 200 years: Metal and glass buildings collapse. US grain belt returns to prairie.
Within 250 years: Dams collapse.
Within 500 years: Corals regenerate.
500 to 1,000 years: Organic landfill waste mostly decayed.
1,000 years: Most brick, stone and concrete buildings gone. Carbon dioxide in atmosphere back to pre-industrial levels.
50,000 years: Most glass and plastics degrade.
After 50,000 years: Mankind's tenure is mostly marked by a few achaelogical remains...
But some man-made chemicals only disappear after 200,000 years and nuclear waste can remain deadly for up to two million years.
So... 'Thanks' to The Twilight War - the effects of nuclear war not included - endangered species (well, the non-edible ones) will be better off, you'll be able to see more stars, GM crops are on the way out, the air will be better and rural roads and villages will be getting very overgrown...
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 10:06 AM If humanity vanished tomorrow it does not automatically follow that most engangered species would immediately begin to regenerate. Some of them certainly would begin to recover. Others would actually disappear as their primary benefactors (humans that care) would be gone to protect them from non-native competitors species. Even though humans are gone, we've transplanted so many species all over the world that things wont automatically go back to the way they were.
Without a doubt entire ecosystems would begin to flux as a new balance is found once humans are gone. Top level predators like mountain lions, tigers, wolves and such would be better off in my opinion, some fisheries are too far gone to recovery but in general the oceans would be a whole lot better off.
Animals that flourish because of people are totally screwed. Domestic cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, Aunt Mary's gold fish, etc.
200 years for wood structures to decay? Doesnt that seem a little long in anything but a desert or cold environment?
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DeaconR 04-26-2007, 10:18 AM Well...it depends on what you mean, Jawa. Wood properly treated can last a fair while under the right circumstances.
It's an interesting premise though I'm not sure that I agree with all the information.
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Targan 04-26-2007, 10:51 AM Animals that flourish because of people are totally screwed. Domestic cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, Aunt Mary's gold fish, etc.I agree with most of what you wrote there TPJ, but I disagree on what you wrote in what I have quoted. Some animals that flourish because of people will fall by the wayside, yes. But (and I mean no disrespect to you TPJ) those that you gave as examples aren't good ones, with the possible exception of chickens. But even chickens were domesticated from wild fowl. Have you ever seen a boar, I mean the kind descended from escaped domestic pigs? Large, black, bristly, big f-off tusks, some SERIOUS attitude. But just a few generations before, their ancestors were fat, had small tusks and far less bristles, and were far less aggressive. Well the same goes for dogs. There are parts of the world RIGHT NOW where packs of dogs pose a serious danger to human beings. And they are made up occassionally of dogs which are themselves escaped pets, and certainly less than three generations down the track from someone's happy hand-licking Fido. Feral cats will live just about anywhere where there is appropriate game, and I mean almost anywhere. As for cattle, I am sure they would return to their instinctive herd structures very quickly. A couple of full grown bulls in a herd would successfully see off all but the largest and most fierce predators. Not quite the same animal I know, but I've seen a documentary where a herd of water buffalo (some kind of large, wild bovine anyway) systematically search out and stomp to death a half a dozen lion cubs while the lionesses were forced to just stand back and watch.
And wasn't there a discussion here a while back about how goldfish would not only survive okay in canals and such in the Twilight world, and even be a potential source of food?
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kcdusk 04-26-2007, 03:41 PM Owww, Brit!
I've been playing this game wrong all along. Trying to rebuild our devaseted world, dragging humanity by its shoelaces back into, into, the darkagaes and beyond.
Now you have me hoping T2K happens! And stays!
I'd trade off the small nuclear problem if everything else on your list improves.
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 04:26 PM Hi Targan,
After I wrote my response I thought dogs were probably not as bad off as I'd imagine. My response was posted on the assumption that *POOF* humans are gone in an instant as if buy magic.
Still, I also think location is a key understanding to my response. Here in California domestic cats would likely be out compteted and hunted down my coyotes. Currently cats fair very poorly against coyotes in areas where the suburbs touch wilderness. In other parts of the west dogs would have to go against wolves which I think they probably would either lose out or be incorporated. I think cats and dogs (those that survive) might be able to carve out a life in the urban areas where there are plenty of ready places to hide.
As for pigs, they seem especially adept at going feral. There are plenty of boars in California left over from the old days. As for for cattle, Water buffaloe would do fine. I think I was thinking alone the lines of dairy cows. They'd die in their pens or get eaten quick by mountain lions and such.
As for goldfish, that was sorta a joke. Goldfish stuck in a bowl in Aunt Mary's apartment aren't getting out into the wild. Yes, we did have a discussion about goldfish being great sources of protien in the aftermath as they can live almost anywhere.
Overall I think very few domesticated animals would survive simply because they have no survival skills. ie) they are inefficient or incapable hunters. Free-range farm animals probably stand a reasonable chance. I dunno, I had a cat once that could hunt like crazy and she was a good mom. So if he could figure out how to avoid coyotes or other big cats in the new world, then she might find a ecological niche to occupy.
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 04:31 PM Well...it depends on what you mean, Jawa. Wood properly treated can last a fair while under the right circumstances.
It's an interesting premise though I'm not sure that I agree with all the information.
There are ghost towns in the American Southwest desert that still have wood structures somewhat standing that are over 100 years old now. But even those are in really bad shape and thats as dry an environment as I can think of.
I didn't think about treated wood, thats a good point. I was thinking long of the lines of places where you get a decent amount of rainfall. Once the wood starts to get wet or attacked by bugs, its not gonna last too long. I wonder if by decayed they meant totally gone, not just collaped or in a state of ruin.
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Spielmeister 04-26-2007, 07:38 PM Thanks for the information. This sort of gives you a sense of perspective how human-made artifacts tend to last after their owners/users are gone for good. It's a lot better than having situations from our old gamma world games where you see wooden houses and cars in relatively good condition x number of years after the "big one", just waiting for a convenient group of players characters to chance upon them.
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Targan 04-27-2007, 12:47 AM TPJ, you have revealed me as being narrow minded. I was thinking in terms of Australia, but now I recognise (as I should have before) that the US has a radically different ecosystem to Australia. I had forgotten that the US has all manner of native, wily, cunning and/or ferocious predators of its own. Here in Australia there were only ever two decent sized "native" predators before white folk arrived - the thylacine or Tasmanian Tiger (a marsupial predator the size of a large dog) and the dingo which is closely related to the Indian plains wolf and is thought to have arrived between 40,000 and 150,000 years ago with the ancestors of the Australian Aborigines from Asia. So over here, introduced predators such as cats, dogs and foxes do EXTREMELY well in the wild. And don't get me started on rabbits, they have gone absolutely berserk with their breeding since they were introduced. We also have vast numbers of feral camels, goats, pigs, and even horses (called wild brumbies, a type of quarter horse). We used to have a big water buffalo problem in the Northern Territory but over the past few decades they have all been shot as they carried bruselosis.
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Brit 04-27-2007, 01:08 AM Well, as I said all I have is one bit of an article and it does assume we all just vanish...
I didn't really get that "most endangered species" would start recovering, ditto that GM crops would just disappear. Here the papers are full of the dangers of cross-pollination and species 'escaping' the field they were planted in.
I've always wondered what happens to all the nuclear reactors? After the workers stop turning up just how long before they start falling apart and leaking?
And US, Oz, etc, posters (where they have 'real weather' and 'real scary animals', unlike here) can start giggling now but here in little ol' GB we have our escaped / released critters too!
Yup, wild boar have escaped, following what we called a hurricane, and are said to be running wild in parts of Kent and I have also read they are running about in The Forest of Dean. And there's this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4550000/newsid_4555700/4555794.stm
Ever so often 'big cat' stories hit the headlines. It's said that after a dangerous animals act was passed by Parliament in the 1970's owners just let them go... and from time to time a grainy photo and / or sighting makes the papers. (Seems it was fashionable then to have a leopold or puma chained up in your back garden! Rather them than me).
The most famous one is 'The Beast of Bodmin': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_Bodmin
Llamas are being farmed here. One escaped, got on a railway line and delayed trains... It made a change from "leaves on the line" or the wrong type of snow. Supposedly if you put one in a herd of sheep they 'adopt' them and drive of predators! And you can use them as pack animals.
(Anybody remember that adventure in Challenge about a US unit in Washington state, I think, using elephants?)
As for 'Ghost Towns' try this site: http://www.ghosttowngallery.com/ There's some good photos that could be useful for showing abandoned towns.
I can see packs of ex-domestic dogs being a real problem. My Brother and I got chased by a pack in Ibiza when we were kids. Not a nice experience. I don't think this series has been mentioned ('The Last Train') but in one of the early scenes the survivors are chased by a pack with fatal results for one of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Train
And then there's rats... OK, they are pretty wild already but with all those bodies all over the place... Maybe James Herbert was right after all. ('Domain' concerns the after effects of a nuclear strike on London).
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General Pain 04-27-2007, 01:17 AM I was given a cutting from a British 'quality' newspaper concerning "estimated times for the disappearance of Man's traces". I don't know anything else about the article and, obviously, I can't state the paper's original source, however...
The times are:
So... 'Thanks' to The Twilight War - the effects of nuclear war not included - endangered species (well, the non-edible ones) will be better off, you'll be able to see more stars, GM crops are on the way out, the air will be better and rural roads and villages will be getting very overgrown...
this must be one of the more inspiring posts I have read at this forum.
This gives me a lot of new ideas
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Targan 04-27-2007, 01:29 AM And then there's rats... OK, they are pretty wild already but with all those bodies all over the place... Maybe James Herbert was right after all. ('Domain' concerns the after effects of a nuclear strike on London).Thanks for that blast from the past. I've read those James Herbert 'Rat' novels. Genuinely chilling stuff.
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ReHerakhte 04-27-2007, 04:52 AM G'Day All,
Just to add my 50 cents worth...
It would be interesting to see where the information came from because I think some of it is somewhat skewed, as in the following examples: -
Within 20 years: GM crops disappear. I love the whole GM food debate because it conveniently ignores the fact that most of the food we eat has been genetically modified by natural procedures for centuries/millennia, e.g. wheat has been cross pollinated to provide better resistance to disease and a better yield - now I know this isn't GM in the current understanding but it absolutely IS modified at a genetic level from wild wheat. I can see such foodstuffs as domestic bananas dying out because the plants are sterile and new plants are taken from cuttings from old plants but modern wheat might just persist for many, many decades.
1,000 years: Most brick, stone and concrete buildings gone. Gonna be a whole lot sooner than that for concrete because modern cement is crap! Most modern cements are only good for 40-60 years and I found it quite astounding when I learnt that (in the Western World), most modern commercial buildings with high cement content are considered to have an economical life of just 25 years. After that it is believed that maintenance is too expensive so the building will be torn down and a new one built to replace it. Cement is one of those strange inventions that has been discovered, lost, rediscovered, lost again and then rediscovered again. The formula for modern cements dates from the 1800s and it is considered one of the weaker forms in comparison to what the ancients had. For example, the Flavian Amphitheatre (AKA the Colliseum) in Rome is partly made from Roman cement as are a good many wharves from that period - and most of them are still standing 2000 years later.
50,000 years: Most glass and plastics degrade. Glass I can understand but plastics? Did the people who compiled this bother to have a look at the range of plastics we use and the decay rates for them? Fair enough, some plastics will take a great deal of time to degrade but some will break down in decades, other types can take centuries. The average plastic shopping bag may take a couple of hundred years, perhaps Tupperware lasts a bit longer (said with tongue in cheek!) but 50,000 years!?
Okay, so as has already been said, it will depend on climate but other variables such as amount of soil acidity/alkalinity, intensity of sunlight etc. will play a big part. As has also been stated, some buildings made from hardwoods or treated woods have lasted centuries already.
Hmm, can't think of anything more to add so I guess I'll shut my mouth and sign off!
Cheers,
Kevin
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Brit 04-27-2007, 05:36 AM Hmm, can't think of anything more to add so I guess I'll shut my mouth and sign off!
Cheers,
Kevin
One of the things I like about this site is that, like I did here, you can post any old sort of toot and there's someone out there with better info. (And unlike some sites I look at you don't get a load of abuse!) So thanks for all the comments so far... (God, I'm such a crawler!)
I think this might be the original article, although I can't seem to 'click' on any graph...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article668846.ece
This seems right as on the back of the cutting is a bit of an article by The (London) Times' art critic!
Anyway, I also Googled the name of one of the people quoted in the article and this came up: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/life/endangered-species/mg19225731.100 and this one does has some nice maps and graphs (top right hand corner).
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Headquarters 04-27-2007, 05:57 AM I think ther ewill be plenty of time for a new ice age to come - crush everything to dust and go again in the span of say 25 000 years..I mean 50 000 years is rather a long time isnt it ? But I guess som eplaces there will be radioactive residue du eto storage of nuvclear waste with a halving time of say 250 000 years and "they" will know weve beeen herethat way I suppose..
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DeaconR 04-27-2007, 08:28 AM What's also interesting is this--some extremists in the ecology battle get funny ideas about this kind of thing. For instance I've read at least three novels that struck a tone of regretting the deaths of millions in the post apocalyptic venue presented but applauding the idea of the rejuvenation of the natural world. Strange but true.
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thefusilier 04-27-2007, 12:17 PM I think ther ewill be plenty of time for a new ice age to come - crush everything to dust and go again in the span of say 25 000 years..I mean 50 000 years is rather a long time isnt it ? But I guess som eplaces there will be radioactive residue du eto storage of nuvclear waste with a halving time of say 250 000 years and "they" will know weve beeen herethat way I suppose..
Depends where. During most ice ages, ice doesn't particularly cover the planet. In fact the majority of it remains ice/snow-free.
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Raellus 04-27-2007, 05:47 PM Here's a cool article from the Feb 2005 issue of Discover magazine. If memory serves, it focuses on what an urban area like NYC would like like after a long period with no human inhabitants. I read it when it first came out but didn't keep the issue. Fortunately, it's been archived and you can access it for free.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/feb/earth-without-people
Fascinating stuff. Enjoy!
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Brit 04-30-2007, 09:55 AM Here's a cool article from the Feb 2005 issue of Discover magazine. If memory serves, it focuses on what an urban area like NYC would like like after a long period with no human inhabitants. I read it when it first came out but didn't keep the issue. Fortunately, it's been archived and you can access it for free.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/feb/earth-without-people
Fascinating stuff. Enjoy!
Thanks for that. Interesting (although they don't seem to regret the human race's passing...)
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Brit 08-06-2008, 05:53 AM While at Home I bought a copy (cheap off the market) of the July issue of the BBC Focus magazine. It had a front cover painting (small pic on this page: http://www.bbcfocusmagazine.com/viewIssue.asp?id=1021) and article about thissubject. "Earth without us. What are the possible causes of the extermination of the human race? And how would the Earth cope without us? Stephen Baxter looks into the consequences of our absence, and what would rise in our place". Libruarys might have it (?)
(There's also an article on "Sleepless in battle. The military may be on the verge of beating sleep. Researchers are developing a drug that enables soldiers to stay awake for days on end. Is this as bad an idea as it sounds?)
One of the websites quoted at the end was this: http://www.nickbostrom.com/existential/risks.html which is a link to a paper called "Existential Risks - Analyzing Human Extinction Scenarios and Related Hazards' by Nick Bostrom, PhD. Faculty of Philosophy, Oxford University.
The idea of a cheap magazine stall, or secondhand bookshop even, got me thinking. Wasn't there a Robert A. Heinlein book - set 'post-disaster' - were books could be used as currency?
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Headquarters 08-06-2008, 01:51 PM Depends where. During most ice ages, ice doesn't particularly cover the planet. In fact the majority of it remains ice/snow-free.
I have heard that we are actually still in an ice age -its just that its on its way back so to say -the polar caps are still covered in Ice -not a common occurence in other ages that were warmer
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 02:17 PM If the History Channel shows it again (or if you have a chance to buy the DVD), something in this vein that's really worth watching is Life After People. It;'s a long show (about 3 hours, IIRC), but fascinating. It doesn't go into where people have gone -- it just examines what would happen if we suddenly disappeared.
One of the things that it shows is that almost every trace of our present civilization would be gone after little more than 1000 years -- it would take a pretty intensive archaeological effort by whatever being might visit earth to find any trace of humans. One of the few traces of modern civilization, interestingly enough, would be the bits of mega-sculpture we have produced, like Mount Rushmore -- and that would be badly degraded. Lots of searching and digging might produce the occasional scraps of refined metals and plastics. Most of the damage we have done to the environment would have corrected itself after about 1000 years -- the ecosystem will be different, but almost entirely free of mankind's influence.
After 10,000, we might as well have never been here! Strangely enough, the traces of mankind most likely to have survived after 10,000 years would be things like the Great Wall of China, the Pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, Angkor Wat, and suchlike. Things that have already been here for thousands of years!
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 02:24 PM (There's also an article on "Sleepless in battle. The military may be on the verge of beating sleep. Researchers are developing a drug that enables soldiers to stay awake for days on end. Is this as bad an idea as it sounds?)
I'd say YES!!! One of the big things I've learned about my illness (schizoaffective disorder, a version of bipolar disorder) is that depriving even normal people of sleep, particularly REM sleep, can lead to major lapses in judgment in a matter of days, to hallucinations, paranoia and psychosis after as little as a week in some people, and even death in as little as two weeks!
There was once an episode of The X-Files that dealt with a similar situation. Yes, I know, it's a science fiction show, but one of the things it showed was this psychosis aspect. Something else interesting to watch if you get the chance.
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TiggerCCW UK 08-06-2008, 03:05 PM Paul, wasn't that the episode with Tony Todd (Candy Man, Night Of The Living Dead 1990) in it? Kind of a creepy episode IIRC.
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 03:22 PM I have heard that we are actually still in an ice age -its just that its on its way back so to say -the polar caps are still covered in Ice -not a common occurence in other ages that were warmer
We are in what is called an "inter-glacial period" -- a warm spell between ice ages. Long before I ever heard of global climate change/global warming (when I was in my early teens), I read that scientists had already predicted glaciation would advance again by the year 3000. With the current and future configuration of the Earth's continents, this oscillation between glaciation and inter-glacial periods will continue, possibly for as much as 10 million years more. The inter-glacial periods are relatively short; the current one has lasted only about 15,000 years, and even without mankind's influence, would be almost over. The glacial periods are much longer, ranging from possibly as long as 5 million years to 50,000 years.
And has anyone heard of the "Snowball Earth" theory? It's possible the Earth has had two of these periods, where the Earth is completely frozen over for a few million years -- one that was a part of the pre-Cambrian mass extinction, and one a bit later.
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 03:22 PM Paul, wasn't that the episode with Tony Todd (Candy Man, Night Of The Living Dead 1990) in it? Kind of a creepy episode IIRC.
I hadn't remembered that, but yes!
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Targan 08-06-2008, 11:45 PM One of the things that it shows is that almost every trace of our present civilization would be gone after little more than 1000 years -- it would take a pretty intensive archaeological effort by whatever being might visit earth to find any trace of humans. One of the few traces of modern civilization, interestingly enough, would be the bits of mega-sculpture we have produced, like Mount Rushmore -- and that would be badly degraded. Lots of searching and digging might produce the occasional scraps of refined metals and plastics.I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
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Brit 08-07-2008, 12:45 AM One of the bits I remember from the article is that far, far, in the future anyone visiting Earth would find the remains of all our carrier bags, and other plastic made products, ground up into dust and mixed in with the sands on the beaches.
I remember that TV episode too. Wasn't it about a group of Soldiers who had been made to be unable to sleep and the last of them 'lived' in this perpetual tired state?
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Brit 08-07-2008, 12:50 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
That article, as a sort of sidebar, suggests three animal species that might evolve to replace us. (One was rats, I think another was monkeys - naturally - and the third was a marine race but I can't remember which one). It was said that their 'development' would be slowed down as we have already used most of the oil, etc, up and it would take awhile - to put it mildly - for nature to make more!
The last trace of us was said to be Voyager, and similar spacecraft, which would collapse on it's journey through space for [from memory] many millions of years.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-07-2008, 01:13 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
The Barringer Meteor Crater in Arizona, USA is something like 25,000 years old and its still very clearly identifiable for what it is. So an open pit mine in a similar climate (arid, desert) would certainly not change much after a 1000 years. So I agree that some things would be left behind that indicate our presence.
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Brit 08-07-2008, 01:16 AM Yes, it may take some time for Nature to fill these in...
http://www.answers.com/topic/open-pit-mining
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pmulcahy 08-07-2008, 11:30 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
Hadn't thought of that -- any alien archaeologists would definitely have a "WTF" moment after they found Yucca Mountain...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 12:06 PM That article, as a sort of sidebar, suggests three animal species that might evolve to replace us. (One was rats, I think another was monkeys - naturally - and the third was a marine race but I can't remember which one). It was said that their 'development' would be slowed down as we have already used most of the oil, etc, up and it would take awhile - to put it mildly - for nature to make more!
The last trace of us was said to be Voyager, and similar spacecraft, which would collapse on it's journey through space for [from memory] many millions of years.
Plus the stuff we left on the Moon and Mars. You would also have the probes we sent into sun orbit from the late 1950's to now and perhaps geosynchonous satellites although they would be drifting and I'm not sure how long they would stay up there.
Chuck M.
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pmulcahy 08-07-2008, 12:57 PM I just had an idea more in a T2K vein. How many nuclear reactors around the globe would melt down after the November Nuclear Strikes, due to abandonment before they were shut down properly? Lots of catastrophes could result from that little scenario...
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Targan 08-07-2008, 11:40 PM I guess you might have a few meltdowns but one of the smart things about the way most reactors are built is that the control rods are aligned in such a way that if nothing else, gravity causes them to fall into place. So the default mode of a reactor is actually a powered down state. As I understand it anyway. My forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors.
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TiggerCCW UK 08-08-2008, 01:37 AM My forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors.
Lets hope you never combine the two :firedevil
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Targan 08-08-2008, 01:40 AM Lets hope you never combine the two :firedevilWell if people refrain from pissing me off I won't have to :)
Heh heh.
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Brit 08-08-2008, 01:49 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
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Targan 08-08-2008, 02:13 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!The funny thing is nowdays I'm an 'admin spud' working in an office myself (I'm a media monitor, I get paid to listen to the radio and watch TV, and type really fast). But I used to be a shotfirer (powder monkey).
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thefusilier 08-08-2008, 07:52 AM I just had an idea more in a T2K vein. How many nuclear reactors around the globe would melt down after the November Nuclear Strikes, due to abandonment before they were shut down properly? Lots of catastrophes could result from that little scenario...
Most (if not all) in the western world anyway have fail safes for sudden abandonment scenarios now. The ones elsewhere though is anyone's guess.
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pmulcahy 08-08-2008, 10:18 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
That's a good idea! The PCs could literally be working for anyone, any opposing NPCs could be working for anyone, and it's a reason to introduce "techno-type" PCs and NPCs into the campaign instead of the standard group of military troops. Might also give an ADM-type something to do...
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Brit 08-09-2008, 02:57 AM Dungeness Power Station may be a good choice. It's on the coast in Kent in flat open land. It's thus near / across from France. And any (relief British) Troops could travel there by miniature, steam powered, railway... which would be a sight! Or the raiding party could highjack the train to get themselves and / or the parts out.
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simonmark6 08-09-2008, 06:27 AM <(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.>
It's more like 75%. The French really took energy security seriously, not like the UK who seem to be picking the most volatile regions in the world and then relying totally on them for our energy supplies...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-09-2008, 01:59 PM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
One caveat is that the French use a Westinghouse design so unless the British use a same or similar, there could be problems retrofitting parts. I know the reactors in my area, Beaver Valley 1 and 2, are a Westinghouse design.
Chuck M.
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Brit 08-11-2008, 12:35 AM <(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.>
It's more like 75%. The French really took energy security seriously, not like the UK who seem to be picking the most volatile regions in the world and then relying totally on them for our energy supplies...
Yes, I was a bit out in my figure wasn't I!
There's a map here too: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html
In a T2K World does this make them better off (no reliance on imported fuel or need to mine their own) or worse off ('high tech')?
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GOF 08-11-2008, 03:56 AM Yes, I was a bit out in my figure wasn't I!
There's a map here too: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html
In a T2K World does this make them better off (no reliance on imported fuel or need to mine their own) or worse off ('high tech')?
Found your link a very interesting read and while I was bumming around found this link which shows the Frenchies dont have a lot of good quality uranium ore to mine anymore
http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu/research/OPs/Pederson/html/contents/sect2.html
would make for interesting game long term i reckon, stopping the French from getting more ore
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Brit 08-11-2008, 05:28 AM Found your link a very interesting read and while I was bumming around found this link which shows the Frenchies dont have a lot of good quality uranium ore to mine anymore
http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu/research/OPs/Pederson/html/contents/sect2.html
would make for interesting game long term i reckon, stopping the French from getting more ore
Thanks for the link.
Does anyone remember if the need to keep the Uranium available is quoted as why France maintained it's links with it's (former) colonies in T2K and even 'strengthened' them? They seemingly have become colonies again... From memory it's mentioned in 'Going Home' that troops from an African Nation were serving on the French Borders... but I don't recall a reason given.
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pmulcahy 08-11-2008, 08:21 AM Plus the stuff we left on the Moon and Mars. You would also have the probes we sent into sun orbit from the late 1950's to now and perhaps geosynchonous satellites although they would be drifting and I'm not sure how long they would stay up there.
Chuck M.
Think about it -- our stuff in space will probably be around long after the human race is gone. There are even used toilet bags on the moon. It's sad.
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MajorPo 08-11-2008, 08:30 AM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:22 PM Think about it -- our stuff in space will probably be around long after the human race is gone. There are even used toilet bags on the moon. It's sad.
I really don't think it's all that sad, then again, I do believe in the theory that humans are a lot like dogs, sometimes we do have to leave a mark on our territory. It's sort of like the space version of crawling on a cliffside and painting the "I Was Here" or "Du Bongs" on the side, well, I did grow up partially in the 1970's. :) Well the last case, that might not be too kosher but leaving our mark has been with us since caveman days with their paintings. I guess it is somewhat of our way of ensuring immortality or the closest thing to it.
Chuck M., looking on the bright side.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:23 PM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
I like to read the story, it would be pretty cool.
Chuck M.
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Targan 08-11-2008, 11:56 PM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover.The somewhere that you heard that from was me. Apparently the story is true. I imagine it would have ended up like a self-forging warhead. I recall reading that it would have left the solar system (past the heliopause anyway) some decades ago.
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Brit 08-12-2008, 12:30 AM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
I just hope it doesn't hit any 'alien' spacecraft out there. It would be a rather stupid way to start the first Human v Whoever War... :banghead:
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The times are:
'Immediately': Most endangered species start recovering. [Are we responsible for all extinctions?]
24 - 48 hours: Light pollution ended.
3 months: Air pollution (nitrogen and sulphur oxides) lessens.
Within 10 years: Methane in atmosphere gone.
Within 20 years: Rural roads and villages overgrown. GM crops disappear.
Within 50 years: Fish stocks recover. Nitrates and phosphates in water gone.
50 to 100 years: Urban streets and buildings overgrown.
100 years: Wooden buildings decay.
100 to 200 years: Bridges collapse.
Within 200 years: Metal and glass buildings collapse. US grain belt returns to prairie.
Within 250 years: Dams collapse.
Within 500 years: Corals regenerate.
500 to 1,000 years: Organic landfill waste mostly decayed.
1,000 years: Most brick, stone and concrete buildings gone. Carbon dioxide in atmosphere back to pre-industrial levels.
50,000 years: Most glass and plastics degrade.
After 50,000 years: Mankind's tenure is mostly marked by a few achaelogical remains...
But some man-made chemicals only disappear after 200,000 years and nuclear waste can remain deadly for up to two million years.
So... 'Thanks' to The Twilight War - the effects of nuclear war not included - endangered species (well, the non-edible ones) will be better off, you'll be able to see more stars, GM crops are on the way out, the air will be better and rural roads and villages will be getting very overgrown...
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 10:06 AM If humanity vanished tomorrow it does not automatically follow that most engangered species would immediately begin to regenerate. Some of them certainly would begin to recover. Others would actually disappear as their primary benefactors (humans that care) would be gone to protect them from non-native competitors species. Even though humans are gone, we've transplanted so many species all over the world that things wont automatically go back to the way they were.
Without a doubt entire ecosystems would begin to flux as a new balance is found once humans are gone. Top level predators like mountain lions, tigers, wolves and such would be better off in my opinion, some fisheries are too far gone to recovery but in general the oceans would be a whole lot better off.
Animals that flourish because of people are totally screwed. Domestic cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, Aunt Mary's gold fish, etc.
200 years for wood structures to decay? Doesnt that seem a little long in anything but a desert or cold environment?
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DeaconR 04-26-2007, 10:18 AM Well...it depends on what you mean, Jawa. Wood properly treated can last a fair while under the right circumstances.
It's an interesting premise though I'm not sure that I agree with all the information.
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Targan 04-26-2007, 10:51 AM Animals that flourish because of people are totally screwed. Domestic cats, dogs, cattle, chickens, Aunt Mary's gold fish, etc.I agree with most of what you wrote there TPJ, but I disagree on what you wrote in what I have quoted. Some animals that flourish because of people will fall by the wayside, yes. But (and I mean no disrespect to you TPJ) those that you gave as examples aren't good ones, with the possible exception of chickens. But even chickens were domesticated from wild fowl. Have you ever seen a boar, I mean the kind descended from escaped domestic pigs? Large, black, bristly, big f-off tusks, some SERIOUS attitude. But just a few generations before, their ancestors were fat, had small tusks and far less bristles, and were far less aggressive. Well the same goes for dogs. There are parts of the world RIGHT NOW where packs of dogs pose a serious danger to human beings. And they are made up occassionally of dogs which are themselves escaped pets, and certainly less than three generations down the track from someone's happy hand-licking Fido. Feral cats will live just about anywhere where there is appropriate game, and I mean almost anywhere. As for cattle, I am sure they would return to their instinctive herd structures very quickly. A couple of full grown bulls in a herd would successfully see off all but the largest and most fierce predators. Not quite the same animal I know, but I've seen a documentary where a herd of water buffalo (some kind of large, wild bovine anyway) systematically search out and stomp to death a half a dozen lion cubs while the lionesses were forced to just stand back and watch.
And wasn't there a discussion here a while back about how goldfish would not only survive okay in canals and such in the Twilight world, and even be a potential source of food?
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kcdusk 04-26-2007, 03:41 PM Owww, Brit!
I've been playing this game wrong all along. Trying to rebuild our devaseted world, dragging humanity by its shoelaces back into, into, the darkagaes and beyond.
Now you have me hoping T2K happens! And stays!
I'd trade off the small nuclear problem if everything else on your list improves.
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 04:26 PM Hi Targan,
After I wrote my response I thought dogs were probably not as bad off as I'd imagine. My response was posted on the assumption that *POOF* humans are gone in an instant as if buy magic.
Still, I also think location is a key understanding to my response. Here in California domestic cats would likely be out compteted and hunted down my coyotes. Currently cats fair very poorly against coyotes in areas where the suburbs touch wilderness. In other parts of the west dogs would have to go against wolves which I think they probably would either lose out or be incorporated. I think cats and dogs (those that survive) might be able to carve out a life in the urban areas where there are plenty of ready places to hide.
As for pigs, they seem especially adept at going feral. There are plenty of boars in California left over from the old days. As for for cattle, Water buffaloe would do fine. I think I was thinking alone the lines of dairy cows. They'd die in their pens or get eaten quick by mountain lions and such.
As for goldfish, that was sorta a joke. Goldfish stuck in a bowl in Aunt Mary's apartment aren't getting out into the wild. Yes, we did have a discussion about goldfish being great sources of protien in the aftermath as they can live almost anywhere.
Overall I think very few domesticated animals would survive simply because they have no survival skills. ie) they are inefficient or incapable hunters. Free-range farm animals probably stand a reasonable chance. I dunno, I had a cat once that could hunt like crazy and she was a good mom. So if he could figure out how to avoid coyotes or other big cats in the new world, then she might find a ecological niche to occupy.
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TrailerParkJawa 04-26-2007, 04:31 PM Well...it depends on what you mean, Jawa. Wood properly treated can last a fair while under the right circumstances.
It's an interesting premise though I'm not sure that I agree with all the information.
There are ghost towns in the American Southwest desert that still have wood structures somewhat standing that are over 100 years old now. But even those are in really bad shape and thats as dry an environment as I can think of.
I didn't think about treated wood, thats a good point. I was thinking long of the lines of places where you get a decent amount of rainfall. Once the wood starts to get wet or attacked by bugs, its not gonna last too long. I wonder if by decayed they meant totally gone, not just collaped or in a state of ruin.
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Spielmeister 04-26-2007, 07:38 PM Thanks for the information. This sort of gives you a sense of perspective how human-made artifacts tend to last after their owners/users are gone for good. It's a lot better than having situations from our old gamma world games where you see wooden houses and cars in relatively good condition x number of years after the "big one", just waiting for a convenient group of players characters to chance upon them.
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Targan 04-27-2007, 12:47 AM TPJ, you have revealed me as being narrow minded. I was thinking in terms of Australia, but now I recognise (as I should have before) that the US has a radically different ecosystem to Australia. I had forgotten that the US has all manner of native, wily, cunning and/or ferocious predators of its own. Here in Australia there were only ever two decent sized "native" predators before white folk arrived - the thylacine or Tasmanian Tiger (a marsupial predator the size of a large dog) and the dingo which is closely related to the Indian plains wolf and is thought to have arrived between 40,000 and 150,000 years ago with the ancestors of the Australian Aborigines from Asia. So over here, introduced predators such as cats, dogs and foxes do EXTREMELY well in the wild. And don't get me started on rabbits, they have gone absolutely berserk with their breeding since they were introduced. We also have vast numbers of feral camels, goats, pigs, and even horses (called wild brumbies, a type of quarter horse). We used to have a big water buffalo problem in the Northern Territory but over the past few decades they have all been shot as they carried bruselosis.
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Brit 04-27-2007, 01:08 AM Well, as I said all I have is one bit of an article and it does assume we all just vanish...
I didn't really get that "most endangered species" would start recovering, ditto that GM crops would just disappear. Here the papers are full of the dangers of cross-pollination and species 'escaping' the field they were planted in.
I've always wondered what happens to all the nuclear reactors? After the workers stop turning up just how long before they start falling apart and leaking?
And US, Oz, etc, posters (where they have 'real weather' and 'real scary animals', unlike here) can start giggling now but here in little ol' GB we have our escaped / released critters too!
Yup, wild boar have escaped, following what we called a hurricane, and are said to be running wild in parts of Kent and I have also read they are running about in The Forest of Dean. And there's this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4550000/newsid_4555700/4555794.stm
Ever so often 'big cat' stories hit the headlines. It's said that after a dangerous animals act was passed by Parliament in the 1970's owners just let them go... and from time to time a grainy photo and / or sighting makes the papers. (Seems it was fashionable then to have a leopold or puma chained up in your back garden! Rather them than me).
The most famous one is 'The Beast of Bodmin': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beast_of_Bodmin
Llamas are being farmed here. One escaped, got on a railway line and delayed trains... It made a change from "leaves on the line" or the wrong type of snow. Supposedly if you put one in a herd of sheep they 'adopt' them and drive of predators! And you can use them as pack animals.
(Anybody remember that adventure in Challenge about a US unit in Washington state, I think, using elephants?)
As for 'Ghost Towns' try this site: http://www.ghosttowngallery.com/ There's some good photos that could be useful for showing abandoned towns.
I can see packs of ex-domestic dogs being a real problem. My Brother and I got chased by a pack in Ibiza when we were kids. Not a nice experience. I don't think this series has been mentioned ('The Last Train') but in one of the early scenes the survivors are chased by a pack with fatal results for one of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Train
And then there's rats... OK, they are pretty wild already but with all those bodies all over the place... Maybe James Herbert was right after all. ('Domain' concerns the after effects of a nuclear strike on London).
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General Pain 04-27-2007, 01:17 AM I was given a cutting from a British 'quality' newspaper concerning "estimated times for the disappearance of Man's traces". I don't know anything else about the article and, obviously, I can't state the paper's original source, however...
The times are:
So... 'Thanks' to The Twilight War - the effects of nuclear war not included - endangered species (well, the non-edible ones) will be better off, you'll be able to see more stars, GM crops are on the way out, the air will be better and rural roads and villages will be getting very overgrown...
this must be one of the more inspiring posts I have read at this forum.
This gives me a lot of new ideas
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Targan 04-27-2007, 01:29 AM And then there's rats... OK, they are pretty wild already but with all those bodies all over the place... Maybe James Herbert was right after all. ('Domain' concerns the after effects of a nuclear strike on London).Thanks for that blast from the past. I've read those James Herbert 'Rat' novels. Genuinely chilling stuff.
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ReHerakhte 04-27-2007, 04:52 AM G'Day All,
Just to add my 50 cents worth...
It would be interesting to see where the information came from because I think some of it is somewhat skewed, as in the following examples: -
Within 20 years: GM crops disappear. I love the whole GM food debate because it conveniently ignores the fact that most of the food we eat has been genetically modified by natural procedures for centuries/millennia, e.g. wheat has been cross pollinated to provide better resistance to disease and a better yield - now I know this isn't GM in the current understanding but it absolutely IS modified at a genetic level from wild wheat. I can see such foodstuffs as domestic bananas dying out because the plants are sterile and new plants are taken from cuttings from old plants but modern wheat might just persist for many, many decades.
1,000 years: Most brick, stone and concrete buildings gone. Gonna be a whole lot sooner than that for concrete because modern cement is crap! Most modern cements are only good for 40-60 years and I found it quite astounding when I learnt that (in the Western World), most modern commercial buildings with high cement content are considered to have an economical life of just 25 years. After that it is believed that maintenance is too expensive so the building will be torn down and a new one built to replace it. Cement is one of those strange inventions that has been discovered, lost, rediscovered, lost again and then rediscovered again. The formula for modern cements dates from the 1800s and it is considered one of the weaker forms in comparison to what the ancients had. For example, the Flavian Amphitheatre (AKA the Colliseum) in Rome is partly made from Roman cement as are a good many wharves from that period - and most of them are still standing 2000 years later.
50,000 years: Most glass and plastics degrade. Glass I can understand but plastics? Did the people who compiled this bother to have a look at the range of plastics we use and the decay rates for them? Fair enough, some plastics will take a great deal of time to degrade but some will break down in decades, other types can take centuries. The average plastic shopping bag may take a couple of hundred years, perhaps Tupperware lasts a bit longer (said with tongue in cheek!) but 50,000 years!?
Okay, so as has already been said, it will depend on climate but other variables such as amount of soil acidity/alkalinity, intensity of sunlight etc. will play a big part. As has also been stated, some buildings made from hardwoods or treated woods have lasted centuries already.
Hmm, can't think of anything more to add so I guess I'll shut my mouth and sign off!
Cheers,
Kevin
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Brit 04-27-2007, 05:36 AM Hmm, can't think of anything more to add so I guess I'll shut my mouth and sign off!
Cheers,
Kevin
One of the things I like about this site is that, like I did here, you can post any old sort of toot and there's someone out there with better info. (And unlike some sites I look at you don't get a load of abuse!) So thanks for all the comments so far... (God, I'm such a crawler!)
I think this might be the original article, although I can't seem to 'click' on any graph...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article668846.ece
This seems right as on the back of the cutting is a bit of an article by The (London) Times' art critic!
Anyway, I also Googled the name of one of the people quoted in the article and this came up: http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/life/endangered-species/mg19225731.100 and this one does has some nice maps and graphs (top right hand corner).
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Headquarters 04-27-2007, 05:57 AM I think ther ewill be plenty of time for a new ice age to come - crush everything to dust and go again in the span of say 25 000 years..I mean 50 000 years is rather a long time isnt it ? But I guess som eplaces there will be radioactive residue du eto storage of nuvclear waste with a halving time of say 250 000 years and "they" will know weve beeen herethat way I suppose..
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DeaconR 04-27-2007, 08:28 AM What's also interesting is this--some extremists in the ecology battle get funny ideas about this kind of thing. For instance I've read at least three novels that struck a tone of regretting the deaths of millions in the post apocalyptic venue presented but applauding the idea of the rejuvenation of the natural world. Strange but true.
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thefusilier 04-27-2007, 12:17 PM I think ther ewill be plenty of time for a new ice age to come - crush everything to dust and go again in the span of say 25 000 years..I mean 50 000 years is rather a long time isnt it ? But I guess som eplaces there will be radioactive residue du eto storage of nuvclear waste with a halving time of say 250 000 years and "they" will know weve beeen herethat way I suppose..
Depends where. During most ice ages, ice doesn't particularly cover the planet. In fact the majority of it remains ice/snow-free.
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Raellus 04-27-2007, 05:47 PM Here's a cool article from the Feb 2005 issue of Discover magazine. If memory serves, it focuses on what an urban area like NYC would like like after a long period with no human inhabitants. I read it when it first came out but didn't keep the issue. Fortunately, it's been archived and you can access it for free.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/feb/earth-without-people
Fascinating stuff. Enjoy!
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Brit 04-30-2007, 09:55 AM Here's a cool article from the Feb 2005 issue of Discover magazine. If memory serves, it focuses on what an urban area like NYC would like like after a long period with no human inhabitants. I read it when it first came out but didn't keep the issue. Fortunately, it's been archived and you can access it for free.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/feb/earth-without-people
Fascinating stuff. Enjoy!
Thanks for that. Interesting (although they don't seem to regret the human race's passing...)
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Brit 08-06-2008, 05:53 AM While at Home I bought a copy (cheap off the market) of the July issue of the BBC Focus magazine. It had a front cover painting (small pic on this page: http://www.bbcfocusmagazine.com/viewIssue.asp?id=1021) and article about thissubject. "Earth without us. What are the possible causes of the extermination of the human race? And how would the Earth cope without us? Stephen Baxter looks into the consequences of our absence, and what would rise in our place". Libruarys might have it (?)
(There's also an article on "Sleepless in battle. The military may be on the verge of beating sleep. Researchers are developing a drug that enables soldiers to stay awake for days on end. Is this as bad an idea as it sounds?)
One of the websites quoted at the end was this: http://www.nickbostrom.com/existential/risks.html which is a link to a paper called "Existential Risks - Analyzing Human Extinction Scenarios and Related Hazards' by Nick Bostrom, PhD. Faculty of Philosophy, Oxford University.
The idea of a cheap magazine stall, or secondhand bookshop even, got me thinking. Wasn't there a Robert A. Heinlein book - set 'post-disaster' - were books could be used as currency?
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Headquarters 08-06-2008, 01:51 PM Depends where. During most ice ages, ice doesn't particularly cover the planet. In fact the majority of it remains ice/snow-free.
I have heard that we are actually still in an ice age -its just that its on its way back so to say -the polar caps are still covered in Ice -not a common occurence in other ages that were warmer
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 02:17 PM If the History Channel shows it again (or if you have a chance to buy the DVD), something in this vein that's really worth watching is Life After People. It;'s a long show (about 3 hours, IIRC), but fascinating. It doesn't go into where people have gone -- it just examines what would happen if we suddenly disappeared.
One of the things that it shows is that almost every trace of our present civilization would be gone after little more than 1000 years -- it would take a pretty intensive archaeological effort by whatever being might visit earth to find any trace of humans. One of the few traces of modern civilization, interestingly enough, would be the bits of mega-sculpture we have produced, like Mount Rushmore -- and that would be badly degraded. Lots of searching and digging might produce the occasional scraps of refined metals and plastics. Most of the damage we have done to the environment would have corrected itself after about 1000 years -- the ecosystem will be different, but almost entirely free of mankind's influence.
After 10,000, we might as well have never been here! Strangely enough, the traces of mankind most likely to have survived after 10,000 years would be things like the Great Wall of China, the Pyramids of Giza, Stonehenge, Angkor Wat, and suchlike. Things that have already been here for thousands of years!
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 02:24 PM (There's also an article on "Sleepless in battle. The military may be on the verge of beating sleep. Researchers are developing a drug that enables soldiers to stay awake for days on end. Is this as bad an idea as it sounds?)
I'd say YES!!! One of the big things I've learned about my illness (schizoaffective disorder, a version of bipolar disorder) is that depriving even normal people of sleep, particularly REM sleep, can lead to major lapses in judgment in a matter of days, to hallucinations, paranoia and psychosis after as little as a week in some people, and even death in as little as two weeks!
There was once an episode of The X-Files that dealt with a similar situation. Yes, I know, it's a science fiction show, but one of the things it showed was this psychosis aspect. Something else interesting to watch if you get the chance.
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TiggerCCW UK 08-06-2008, 03:05 PM Paul, wasn't that the episode with Tony Todd (Candy Man, Night Of The Living Dead 1990) in it? Kind of a creepy episode IIRC.
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 03:22 PM I have heard that we are actually still in an ice age -its just that its on its way back so to say -the polar caps are still covered in Ice -not a common occurence in other ages that were warmer
We are in what is called an "inter-glacial period" -- a warm spell between ice ages. Long before I ever heard of global climate change/global warming (when I was in my early teens), I read that scientists had already predicted glaciation would advance again by the year 3000. With the current and future configuration of the Earth's continents, this oscillation between glaciation and inter-glacial periods will continue, possibly for as much as 10 million years more. The inter-glacial periods are relatively short; the current one has lasted only about 15,000 years, and even without mankind's influence, would be almost over. The glacial periods are much longer, ranging from possibly as long as 5 million years to 50,000 years.
And has anyone heard of the "Snowball Earth" theory? It's possible the Earth has had two of these periods, where the Earth is completely frozen over for a few million years -- one that was a part of the pre-Cambrian mass extinction, and one a bit later.
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pmulcahy 08-06-2008, 03:22 PM Paul, wasn't that the episode with Tony Todd (Candy Man, Night Of The Living Dead 1990) in it? Kind of a creepy episode IIRC.
I hadn't remembered that, but yes!
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Targan 08-06-2008, 11:45 PM One of the things that it shows is that almost every trace of our present civilization would be gone after little more than 1000 years -- it would take a pretty intensive archaeological effort by whatever being might visit earth to find any trace of humans. One of the few traces of modern civilization, interestingly enough, would be the bits of mega-sculpture we have produced, like Mount Rushmore -- and that would be badly degraded. Lots of searching and digging might produce the occasional scraps of refined metals and plastics.I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
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Brit 08-07-2008, 12:45 AM One of the bits I remember from the article is that far, far, in the future anyone visiting Earth would find the remains of all our carrier bags, and other plastic made products, ground up into dust and mixed in with the sands on the beaches.
I remember that TV episode too. Wasn't it about a group of Soldiers who had been made to be unable to sleep and the last of them 'lived' in this perpetual tired state?
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Brit 08-07-2008, 12:50 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
That article, as a sort of sidebar, suggests three animal species that might evolve to replace us. (One was rats, I think another was monkeys - naturally - and the third was a marine race but I can't remember which one). It was said that their 'development' would be slowed down as we have already used most of the oil, etc, up and it would take awhile - to put it mildly - for nature to make more!
The last trace of us was said to be Voyager, and similar spacecraft, which would collapse on it's journey through space for [from memory] many millions of years.
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Trailer_Park_Jawa 08-07-2008, 01:13 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
The Barringer Meteor Crater in Arizona, USA is something like 25,000 years old and its still very clearly identifiable for what it is. So an open pit mine in a similar climate (arid, desert) would certainly not change much after a 1000 years. So I agree that some things would be left behind that indicate our presence.
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Brit 08-07-2008, 01:16 AM Yes, it may take some time for Nature to fill these in...
http://www.answers.com/topic/open-pit-mining
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pmulcahy 08-07-2008, 11:30 AM I agree with nearly everything you write Paul but I would like to add to what you have written on this subject. There would be anomolies that alien archaeologists would certainly use to determine that intelligent life had been at work here. Things like the effects of mining, especially strip mining or the huge open pit mines we have here in Australia. Also concentrations of nuclear waste and other pollutants, highly unlikely (or in some cases impossible) to have come from natural sources.
Hadn't thought of that -- any alien archaeologists would definitely have a "WTF" moment after they found Yucca Mountain...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-07-2008, 12:06 PM That article, as a sort of sidebar, suggests three animal species that might evolve to replace us. (One was rats, I think another was monkeys - naturally - and the third was a marine race but I can't remember which one). It was said that their 'development' would be slowed down as we have already used most of the oil, etc, up and it would take awhile - to put it mildly - for nature to make more!
The last trace of us was said to be Voyager, and similar spacecraft, which would collapse on it's journey through space for [from memory] many millions of years.
Plus the stuff we left on the Moon and Mars. You would also have the probes we sent into sun orbit from the late 1950's to now and perhaps geosynchonous satellites although they would be drifting and I'm not sure how long they would stay up there.
Chuck M.
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pmulcahy 08-07-2008, 12:57 PM I just had an idea more in a T2K vein. How many nuclear reactors around the globe would melt down after the November Nuclear Strikes, due to abandonment before they were shut down properly? Lots of catastrophes could result from that little scenario...
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Targan 08-07-2008, 11:40 PM I guess you might have a few meltdowns but one of the smart things about the way most reactors are built is that the control rods are aligned in such a way that if nothing else, gravity causes them to fall into place. So the default mode of a reactor is actually a powered down state. As I understand it anyway. My forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors.
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TiggerCCW UK 08-08-2008, 01:37 AM My forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors.
Lets hope you never combine the two :firedevil
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Targan 08-08-2008, 01:40 AM Lets hope you never combine the two :firedevilWell if people refrain from pissing me off I won't have to :)
Heh heh.
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Brit 08-08-2008, 01:49 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
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Targan 08-08-2008, 02:13 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!The funny thing is nowdays I'm an 'admin spud' working in an office myself (I'm a media monitor, I get paid to listen to the radio and watch TV, and type really fast). But I used to be a shotfirer (powder monkey).
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thefusilier 08-08-2008, 07:52 AM I just had an idea more in a T2K vein. How many nuclear reactors around the globe would melt down after the November Nuclear Strikes, due to abandonment before they were shut down properly? Lots of catastrophes could result from that little scenario...
Most (if not all) in the western world anyway have fail safes for sudden abandonment scenarios now. The ones elsewhere though is anyone's guess.
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pmulcahy 08-08-2008, 10:18 AM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
That's a good idea! The PCs could literally be working for anyone, any opposing NPCs could be working for anyone, and it's a reason to introduce "techno-type" PCs and NPCs into the campaign instead of the standard group of military troops. Might also give an ADM-type something to do...
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Brit 08-09-2008, 02:57 AM Dungeness Power Station may be a good choice. It's on the coast in Kent in flat open land. It's thus near / across from France. And any (relief British) Troops could travel there by miniature, steam powered, railway... which would be a sight! Or the raiding party could highjack the train to get themselves and / or the parts out.
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simonmark6 08-09-2008, 06:27 AM <(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.>
It's more like 75%. The French really took energy security seriously, not like the UK who seem to be picking the most volatile regions in the world and then relying totally on them for our energy supplies...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-09-2008, 01:59 PM (Don't take this the wrong way) but as some Admin Spud who works in a office I'd love to turn to some Attractive Young Lady and say, "my forte is explosives, not nuclear reactors". Very 'James Bond'!
T2K Idea...
(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.
Along comes T2K...
Across The Channel Britain is having a bad time to say the least...
France needs spares for her plants / would prefer it if the British ones don't 'meltdown'.
Foraging / raiding parties are sent by the French to get spares from undermanned GB ones and ensure that they are made safe(r).
France might even swop weapons / cadres with the new Scottish Government for them.
What French Special Forces running around the GB does for GB - French Relations is anybody's guess...
The French may have the same 'concerns' about any German, etc, powerplants as well... (I think there's one mentioned in 'Going Home' that a US Unit is running).
One caveat is that the French use a Westinghouse design so unless the British use a same or similar, there could be problems retrofitting parts. I know the reactors in my area, Beaver Valley 1 and 2, are a Westinghouse design.
Chuck M.
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Brit 08-11-2008, 12:35 AM <(I think about) 25% of France's electricity comes from nuclear power.>
It's more like 75%. The French really took energy security seriously, not like the UK who seem to be picking the most volatile regions in the world and then relying totally on them for our energy supplies...
Yes, I was a bit out in my figure wasn't I!
There's a map here too: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html
In a T2K World does this make them better off (no reliance on imported fuel or need to mine their own) or worse off ('high tech')?
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GOF 08-11-2008, 03:56 AM Yes, I was a bit out in my figure wasn't I!
There's a map here too: http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf40.html
In a T2K World does this make them better off (no reliance on imported fuel or need to mine their own) or worse off ('high tech')?
Found your link a very interesting read and while I was bumming around found this link which shows the Frenchies dont have a lot of good quality uranium ore to mine anymore
http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu/research/OPs/Pederson/html/contents/sect2.html
would make for interesting game long term i reckon, stopping the French from getting more ore
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Brit 08-11-2008, 05:28 AM Found your link a very interesting read and while I was bumming around found this link which shows the Frenchies dont have a lot of good quality uranium ore to mine anymore
http://www.acdis.uiuc.edu/research/OPs/Pederson/html/contents/sect2.html
would make for interesting game long term i reckon, stopping the French from getting more ore
Thanks for the link.
Does anyone remember if the need to keep the Uranium available is quoted as why France maintained it's links with it's (former) colonies in T2K and even 'strengthened' them? They seemingly have become colonies again... From memory it's mentioned in 'Going Home' that troops from an African Nation were serving on the French Borders... but I don't recall a reason given.
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pmulcahy 08-11-2008, 08:21 AM Plus the stuff we left on the Moon and Mars. You would also have the probes we sent into sun orbit from the late 1950's to now and perhaps geosynchonous satellites although they would be drifting and I'm not sure how long they would stay up there.
Chuck M.
Think about it -- our stuff in space will probably be around long after the human race is gone. There are even used toilet bags on the moon. It's sad.
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MajorPo 08-11-2008, 08:30 AM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:22 PM Think about it -- our stuff in space will probably be around long after the human race is gone. There are even used toilet bags on the moon. It's sad.
I really don't think it's all that sad, then again, I do believe in the theory that humans are a lot like dogs, sometimes we do have to leave a mark on our territory. It's sort of like the space version of crawling on a cliffside and painting the "I Was Here" or "Du Bongs" on the side, well, I did grow up partially in the 1970's. :) Well the last case, that might not be too kosher but leaving our mark has been with us since caveman days with their paintings. I guess it is somewhat of our way of ensuring immortality or the closest thing to it.
Chuck M., looking on the bright side.
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Nowhere Man 1966 08-11-2008, 12:23 PM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
I like to read the story, it would be pretty cool.
Chuck M.
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Targan 08-11-2008, 11:56 PM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover.The somewhere that you heard that from was me. Apparently the story is true. I imagine it would have ended up like a self-forging warhead. I recall reading that it would have left the solar system (past the heliopause anyway) some decades ago.
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Brit 08-12-2008, 12:30 AM I remember hearing somewhere that the first man made object that ended up leaving earths orbit was a large metal manhole cover. It covered the shaft into which the first underground nuclear test charge was placed.
Maybe oneday someone will find that seared hunk of metal...
I just hope it doesn't hit any 'alien' spacecraft out there. It would be a rather stupid way to start the first Human v Whoever War... :banghead:
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