Map of CONUS Nuke strikes.

[kato13]

As Part of my ongoing mapping work I have played around a little with several options for mapping nuclear strikes.

I have created 3 versions of a map of the Ver 2.2 canon strikes. I am not totally happy with the strike radii math, so it will probably change as I move forward. Hope you guys find them useful.

Small (862x471 49KB)
http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_conus_sm.jpg

Medium (1359x807 98KB)
http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_conus_med.jpg

Large (2650x1450 284KB)
http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_conus_lrg.jpg

[Benjamin]

Very cool. Is there anyway to add the Canadian strikes that are visible on the map?

And I'm pretty sure that the CONUS strategic target list in V2 is the same as the list from V1. I'll double check on that using the Challenge article and Howling Wilderness.

Benjamin

[kato13]

If someone provides me with any canon strike lists (Canada, USSR, UK, etc) I can add those points and map them. I know I have them somewhere but coding is more fun than digging through files ;) . Additional strikes are easy it is just a matter of adding new long/lat points to the database along with a warhead size.

Eventually this will all be added to my gaming maps system, but I still have a lot of work to do on the difference between overpressure and heat radii, and ground versus airburst.

[Benjamin]

I have my scanner up and running now and so I can get you the lists as per V1 or V2. All you need to do is send me an email and I'll reply in a bit with pdfs.

I'm pretty sure V1 and V2 hit lists are the same so either one should suffice.

Benjamin

[kato13]

I have my scanner up and running now and so I can get you the lists as per V1 or V2. All you need to do is send me an email and I'll reply in a bit with pdfs.

I'm pretty sure V1 and V2 hit lists are the same so either one should suffice.

Benjamin

If you can point me to book name and page numbers that should be enough.

[Benjamin]

After reading over them, I can say that the Hit Lists for V1 and V2 are essentially the same.

Since you're using V2.2 "the Big Yellow Book" I'll give you those page numbers.

British Nuclear Targets, page 226 (This lists only cities not what was actually targeted.)

US Nuclear Targets, page 235 (I actually typed this out before remembering that there's a good chance you already had this list.)

Canadian Nuclear Targets, page 236. (Like the US target list this only includes major strategic targets, not the smaller tactical warheads.)

U.S.S.R. Nuclear Targets, page 239. (Other than a few spelling differences this is the same list that originally appeared in Challenge #33.)

Hope this makes the endeavor a bit easier.

Benjamin

[kato13]

Thanks for the data. I have my hands full with over 2200 warheads hitting the US for the Morrow Project version of the map. I'll dig into the Canadian and UK ones pretty quick. The Russian ones might have to wait as I am sure geocoding them (determining long/lat) will be made more difficult by language differences.

If a warhead size is not listed I will just make it 500kt.

[kato13]

Added a map to the British targets here British Nuclear Targets Map. I did not go with only 500kt for the British targets. I threw in a few 750 and 1MT for larger cities.

Canada and the USSR are going to take longer due to the size of the maps. A curse on Flemish geographer and cartographer Gerardus Mercator and his dammed projections. :D

[pmulcahy11b]

The thing that confuses me about the V1/2/2.2 target map and Red Star, Lone Star is that on the game target map, Randolph AFB (on the north side of San Antonio) has been nuked. In Red Star, Lone Star, Randolph is intact, as is most of San Antonio. Logically, Randolph AFB, Kelly AFB, Ft Sam Houston, and San Antonio International Airport were all secondary or tertiary targets, and they probably all have been nuked.

Randolph AFB is Air Training Command, and has nice, big runways and great repair facilities. It was a secondary target for the Russians. Kelly AFB and San Antonio International Airport were secondary targets because they have runways that can handle heavy bombers and were SAC dispersal bases; Kelly also had repair facilities for heavy US aircraft. Ft. Sam Houston, in the T2K timeline, was home to 8th Army as well as MEDDAC (US Army Medical Command). It was a tertiary target.

Personally, I prefer San Antonio to be intact, but I may have a bias...

[Fusilier]

Logically, Randolph AFB, Kelly AFB, Ft Sam Houston, and San Antonio International Airport were all secondary or tertiary targets, and they probably all have been nuked.

Personally, I prefer San Antonio to be intact, but I may have a bias...

But its also true that there are countless other secondary and tertiary targets that have escaped attack right? Considering it was a "limited" exchange drawn out over a couple months... and with missile and air command centers knocked out - it may help explain why some of the higher value targets still exist.

Another way to look at it is... the map lists the target but not where the actual detonation occurred. I think it says something to that effect. It could also be a miss of a few kilos for (insert) reason.

I understand your bias. My city was targeted in Canada (a target list I think is over the top). I adjust the end result a little as a result.

[Rainbow Six]

I agree that there are some glaring omissions in the canon nuclear target lists.

If you look at the UK for example, the all major Naval bases (Faslane, Rosyth, Plymouth and Portsmouth) escape unscathed. Aldershot gets nuked but Catterick doesn't. And the whole of the North East industrial area escapes.

[Benjamin]

And here, especially after looking at kato13's target maps, I thought the UK got overly pummeled for its area in square kilometers.

Remember that the target lists are only for strategic nuclear hits. Canada, the US and the UK were also hit by multiple tactical nuclear weapons and these will still be in the size range of the Nagasaki (Fat Man 21kt) and Hiroshima (Little Boy 13-18 kt) devices. With that in mind you could do some serious damage to nearly any target you want to by saying it was hit bt a tactical nuclear weapon.

Conversely, there several references to near-misses and malfunctions of Soviet weapons that served to save an intended target. Given that Soviet nuclear weapons are believed to have a much larger circular error probability than US weapons. This is why Soviet bombs generally had a higher yield than US devices. (It's also why the saying...Close only counts in horseshoes...was extended to include nuclear weapons, and perhaps hand grenades)

So as a GM you could easily justify saving a desired target by saying the nuclear weapon targeting the location missed, got messed up by EMP, got shot down by an early Star Wars system, was a dud, only fissed but didn't fuse, hit a goose at launch, was made by the cheapest bidder, fried by a solar flare, incorrect targeting information made it hit Lake Titicaca instead or any number of things.

And the nice thing is that if you have a serious grudge against a particular town or location you can fill fully justified in wiping that blight off the face of the Earth with a 10-20 kt tactical nuclear weapon.

Benjamin

[Rainbow Six]

Benjamin of course you're right that ultimately it's always going to be up to the GM what has been nuked or hasn't.

I dunno...I guess I was just being picky...;)

Cheers

Dave

[kato13]

North American Strike map (Sans Alaska/Mexico/Greenland and northernmost Canada)

http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_north_america.jpg (4150x3550 907 KB)
(edit if you download this map you don't need to down load the one below I fixed the error)

A smaller map with all the Canadian Strikes is available here here.

USSR is going to be very annoying so I may wait a bit. Oh if anyone wants Alaska or Hawaii let me know.

[pmulcahy11b]

So as a GM you could easily justify saving a desired target by saying the nuclear weapon targeting the location missed, got messed up by EMP, got shot down by an early Star Wars system, was a dud, only fissed but didn't fuse, hit a goose at launch, was made by the cheapest bidder, fried by a solar flare, incorrect targeting information made it hit Lake Titicaca instead or any number of things.

I did that when I was running a campaign -- I wanted Kennedy Space Center to survive, so the bombs destined for it (three, IIRC), hit well off the coast instead, though a small wave washed over the entire Space Center. The warhead destined for Kaneohe MCAS also missed by a country mile (I spent my teenage years there, and have a lot of fond memories).

[kato13]

Just a note. Benjamin pointed out that I had targeted the province not the City of Quebec. I have updated the map accordingly.

http://games.juhlin.com/files/nuke_strike_north_america.jpg

[Graebarde]

Another question/comment. The strikes in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming are just the command centers for the missile wings. There are command centers all over the areas, at least ten for each of the wings that would be targets of multiple strikes as well. I grew up in NoDak, half way between the two red dots (Minot AFB to the west and Grand Forks AFB to the east. The nearest silos to home were 40 miles east and about the same to the west. Were war to come at that time in my life, we were going to be well irradiated, the area a radioactive wasteland from the Rockies to the Great Lakes; and from the Platte River to Canada. NoDak was joked as the third largest nuclear power in the world hving well over 300 Minuteman missile silos as well as two SAC bomber wings.

It was interesting to watch the BUFFs do their low level insertion practice, traveling about 400 feet off the surface. Their path for the practice was 12 miles west of where I lived, and over fields where I worked as a field scout, First encounter startled me as I came out of a treeline and there within pistol range is a BUFF passing by. You do NOT hear them until they are over you!

Imagine a farmer working and seeing an enemy bomber sliding semi-silently over your field.

I've also experienced a fighter 'bombing run' while working in the field. A shadow growing over the tractor, look back and up a bit and here's an F4 coming out of the eveing sun. Close enough you could smell the kerosene as he kicked his afterburners. That was just after the Hooligans (NoDak ANG Fighter wing) transitioned to F4.

Lots of interesting memories from the Cold War era in central NoDak.

[Graebarde]

Another question/comment. The strikes in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming are just the command centers for the missile wings.

I note after the fact that Rapid City missed the target list. Strange, since it was Wing HQ for the FIRST Minuteman wing planted and home also for a BOne wing. Oversite?

[kato13]

There are tons of potential targets that GDW spared. I am currently working on mapping out the hits from Morrow Project enhanced targeting list. I have 2802 warheads from 582 missiles hitting something like 508 targets. GDW only chose to hit 82 targets meaning less than one in five potential targets was converted to vapor.

As for handling missing strikes, I most probably will have a map tool to allow the user to place their own strikes on a map (probably limited to 26) and see how things look.

Looking back I think this is really funny how I am doing the same things I did 25 years ago but with newer and better technology. Back then I had acetate sheets with burst radii which I would move around several maps I had to see what the potential for devastation was. Now it is all digital but it is still just as fun.

[Fusilier]

There are tons of potential targets that GDW spared.

I guess if they went with total nuke exchange the game wouldn't be what it is. There would be no hope for rebuilding and no point in tackling the missions in the modules. It would less a military RPG and more of a - extend your suffering by X number of weeks.

[Raellus]

I guess if they went with total nuke exchange the game wouldn't be what it is. There would be no hope for rebuilding and no point in tackling the missions in the modules. It would less a military RPG and more of a - extend your suffering by X number of weeks.

There's definitely that.

Also, I think part of the justification for limiting the number of targets in the canon write-up was the avoidance of a general MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) nuclear war by keeping both nuclear powers from intentionally going after too many of their respective enemy's strategic nuclear assets.

It was a slippery slope since some strategic nuclear targets (silos, command and control, airfields for strategic bombers, sub pens, etc.) look like they were targeted. However, it sounds and looks like it was a onesy-twosie sort of tit-for-tat type deal rather than a "let's launch one big crippling attack" sort of thing.

If either side felt they were about to lose all of their nuclear weapons due to enemy strikes, they would have unleashed all of their birds, prompting an equally massive counter-strike. This would have resulted in MAD and not much of a game world to play in/on.

Kato, any chance of putting all of your finalized strike maps up in one thread- maybe as a sticky?

[Benjamin]

A couple of years ago at GenCon Indy I talked to a guy who was at the GURPS booth. I can't remember his name off hand, but he said he had conversed with Loren Wiseman. They talked about the nuclear hit list and besides a totally game-world based decision to keep the destruction "limited", there seemed to be a general belief that the early destruction of command and control (i.e. high level executive decision makers) would limit the exchange.

Admittedly, this may be a flawed assumption and the destruction of NECAP is a bit of a stretch, but the creators of 2300AD worked a bit backwards. They knew what kind of RPG they wanted so the finagled the timeline a bit to get there. Frank Chadwick worked for the government doing this same kind of thing for government training simulations.

The Morrow Project too had a game design goal but it was decidedly different from what GDW wanted. Truth be told I had several Morrow supplements but found the premise a bit silly. 150 years in the future but most groups were still using war time vehicles and weapons? Also the mutant animals sort of took the realism factor down a bit.

I agree the hit list for T2K is a bit limited. I usually ad a few targets and I usually have a few city-busters thrown in by a late firing Soviet boomer.

Benjamin

[kato13]

Kato, any chance of putting all of your finalized strike maps up in one thread- maybe as a sticky?

I may work on a "stuff I've made" thread. I have maps, equipment lists, data sets, etc. Maybe as a sticky or having a prominent position in one of the current sticky threads.

[kato13]

In case anyone is interested in what the strike map for a Morrow Project game might look like I have links to a couple maps in this thread. Other than calculated duds and misses I bet there will be very few complaints about SOVs missing an obvious target.

[Abbott Shaull]

It is interesting that the twin Sault Ste. Marie weren't hit on you target maps. With the Soo Locks and amount of Iron Ore that could be transported through them. Even if it started to with the taking out of Military installation initially, as they went out to take out oil refinaries and the like, the Locks would be on a short list too.

During WWII Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan was home 15,000 soldiers, with Germany and Japan not actually have the ability to attack this location, but it was well guarded. Also German POWs were interned in the UP too. The Bases are gone from here, but I would think if there was a war with Russia/Soviet Union this would be one of the target that the US would try to protect. Fort Brady in the Sault, Radar Hill, Raco Air Field, and Kincheloe Air Force Base as well as the Corps of Engineer Locks, and Sault Coast Guard Base are the handful of military installation that were in the area after WWII and sadly now only the Locks and Coast Guard Base are what remains.

As for Maraquette, would that be the city or the K.I. Sawyer AFB. The reason I ask is that Sawyer is like 20 miles from Maraquette, not that their would be on huge forest fire, and Empire mine would be close too. Maraquette does have a loading dock, but it quite small compared to those in Duluth/Superior area.

[kato13]

The UP of Michigan has a major Morrow mission IIRC. Chicago does as well. Both are conveniently "missed" by canon strikes.

[sic1701]

As far as Air Force bomber and missile bases and Navy airfields and bases not shown to be hit on the target list and map, we might reasonably assume that even though the Soviet Union was still around as a significant geopolitical entity and we didn't have the significant military drawdown we've seen in real-life since the 80s, intelligent force reductions did nonetheless occur in T2K; merging of missions and closing/realignment of bases and such.

[kato13]

As far as Air Force bomber and missile bases and Navy airfields and bases not shown to be hit on the target list and map, we might reasonably assume that even though the Soviet Union was still around as a significant geopolitical entity and we didn't have the significant military drawdown we've seen in real-life since the 80s, intelligent force reductions did nonetheless occur in T2K; merging of missions and closing/realignment of bases and such.


The first round of BRAC (Base Realignment and Closure) occurred in 1988 so that is very reasonable.

[sic1701]

And BRAC might have accelerated somewhat, if the U.S. needed to close and align installations in order to save money or shuffle it around for newer weapons programs in anticipation for a prolonged Cold War. One of the reasons that so many installations were able to be closed in the several BRAC rounds was the fact that the Cold War's end made them not only unnecessary and redundant, but also cost-prohibitive to even maintain in any kind of caretaker status.

[Kilgs]

Does anyone have these files for download? I know kato's having filedump issues so was hoping someone else had them available?

Send PM for contact info or email to kilgs....AT.... yahoo.

[kato13]

Here is the medium one

[TrailerParkJawa]

Did anyone play with any of the various online nuclear blast calculators to check damage vs. maps? I've attached one I made for a 1.5 Mt blast against Richmond , California.

[Kilgs]

Much obliged!

And yes, the Sawyer AFB in Michigan has been closed down since 1995. And I am definitely shocked that Sault Ste Marie was not an industrial/resource target.

[kato13]

All of the rest of my maps (UK, USSR, Canada, North America) plus a few other unit maps are zipped in the file below
https://rapidshare.com/files/680650729/t2kmaps.zip

I think they all are (1.0/2.0/2.2) canon with the exception of the Czech map which corresponds to the DC Groups Czech Sourcebook.

Edit. Oh the Europe strike map is canon plus supposition.

[Targan]

And yes, the Sawyer AFB in Michigan has been closed down since 1995. And I am definitely shocked that Sault Ste Marie was not an industrial/resource target.

Any target you think should have been nuked can be nuked in your campaign without breaking canon, you just declare it to have been under the size threshold for it to have been mentioned in canon*.

*Unless it expressly states in canon that a given location was NOT nuked.

[Raellus]

Any idea why Memphis was hit? Nothing jumps out as me as a strategic target there.

[kato13]

Any idea why Memphis was hit? Nothing jumps out as me as a strategic target there.

Memphis is closer to the bottom left of TN. The hit is on Blytheville AFB, AR: 42nd Air Division Headquarters, 97th Strategic Bombing Wing (1 Mt).

[unkated]

Any idea why Memphis was hit? Nothing jumps out as me as a strategic target there.

Graceland. An obvious strike to break American resolve: "We have destroyed your King's home!"

Or perhaps retaliation for the conventional strike that accidentally hit the Hermitage.

Uncle Ted

[Raellus]

Good one, Unkated. Thanks, Kato!

[WallShadow]

Any idea why Memphis was hit? Nothing jumps out as me as a strategic target there.
Maybe the Rooskies were targetting Pigeon Forge and overshot.

[Olefin]

Did anyone play with any of the various online nuclear blast calculators to check damage vs. maps? I've attached one I made for a 1.5 Mt blast against Richmond , California.

I looked at the Richmond strike - and I am leaning more toward it being multiple nukes hitting the same target instead of a single 1.5MT blast - if you look at the Urban Guerrilla module you can see that there is a precedent - i.e. the strike against Cape Canaveral that was not just one large nuke but a series of small ones - there are other mentions as well of the larger strikes actually being multiple smaller strikes all hitting around the same time

[Olefin]

Any target you think should have been nuked can be nuked in your campaign without breaking canon, you just declare it to have been under the size threshold for it to have been mentioned in canon*.

*Unless it expressly states in canon that a given location was NOT nuked.

For instance it states specifically that the only nuclear strikes in PA were the ones near Philly in canon - thus that means that Harrisburg, Carlisle, York (the BAE plant that made the M109/M8/M88/Bradley, Caterpillar, Harley), Allentown (the Mack assembly plant at Macungie), McConnellsburg (JLG assembly plant that was probably converted to military production), etc.. are all unaffected - thus the Soviets left a lot of targets untouched - and thats just PA

[jimbo4795]

I can see two reasons to target Memphis.
1-Naval Air Station Millington was a major training base up until 1993 and then became a "support activity". It is less than 20 miles from downtown Memphis.
2-There are two major bridges over the Mississippi river in Memphis, if they are taken out it leaves a 125 mile gap with no bridges over the river.

[Legbreaker]

1-Naval Air Station Millington was a major training base up until 1993 and then became a "support activity". It is less than 20 miles from downtown Memphis.

And given the huge call up of manpower, unseen since WWII, training centres would be overflowing with recruits, with new ones established and old ones quickly refurbished and brought back online.
And then there's the whole T2K being written before the place was downgraded thing....

[Olefin]

Guys keep in mind - limited nuclear strikes - in other words they didnt hit every vital bridge, power station, city, base, etc.. - if they had then it would have been a no holds barred all out exchange - which is not what happened

So most likely most of those places you are saying got hit by nukes - didnt

i.e. if they didnt hit NYC, if they didnt hit Boston, if they didnt hit Harrisburg or York (the bridges across the Susquehanna, the BAE plant that makes a ton of military vehicles, etc..), if they didnt hit Miami then most likely a lot of places were left untouched

keep in mind that a lot of what they hit were refineries and they didnt even get all of them - thus a LIMITED strike

[jimbo4795]

I wasn't advocating an all out exchange or that they should take out every bridge or crossroads, just a plausible reason for targeting Memphis.

[RN7]

This

I can see two reasons to target Memphis.
1-Naval Air Station Millington was a major training base up until 1993 and then became a "support activity". It is less than 20 miles from downtown Memphis.
2-There are two major bridges over the Mississippi river in Memphis, if they are taken out it leaves a 125 mile gap with no bridges over the river.

Four railroad and highway bridges cross the Mississippi River at Memphis; the Frisco Bridge (single-track rail), the Harahan Bridge (double-track rail), the Memphis-Arkansas Memorial Bridge (Interstate 55), and the Hernando de Soto Bridge (Interstate 40). The two rail bridges carry several major east-west railroad freight lines, and also the major north-south railroad lines that run through Memphis and connect with Chicago, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Louisville, New Orleans, Dallas, Houston, Mobile and Birmingham.

Also the Port of Memphis is the second largest inland cargo port on the Mississippi River, and the 4th largest inland Port in the United States.

Memphis International Airport is the global hub of FedEx Express and is the second largest cargo airport in the world. It is also one of the 50 busiest passenger airports in the U.S. and has 4 runways ranging from 8,946 feet to 11,120 feet in length. There is also Millington Memphis Airport located at the former Naval Air Station in Millington which was an active military base until 1995. In 1998 the name of the remaining naval base (non-airfield) was changed to the Naval Support Activity Mid-South to better reflect its role and it employs 6000 military, civilian and contractor on the 1,950 acre site.

Also the Memphis Light, Gas and Water Division (MLGW) is the largest three-service municipal utility in the U.S.

Memphis is important

[Olefin]

and Memphis wasnt hit in the exchange - end of story - like I said there were lots of places that by all rights should have been hit but werent - heck look at how many STATES never got hit let alone cities

But keep in mind if you really want those bridges taken down there are a lot of ways to take them out that have nothing to do with nukes

things like for instance a Soviet sabotage attack that damages the bridges to where they couldnt be used

or a major rail accident (again helped by said saboteurs) that accomplishes the same thing - and then when things go to hell after the TDM the repairs never got completed - so now you have MilGov after they spent nearly a year taking the place by siege having to spend scarce resources and engineering assets on finally getting the bridges fixed - would make a great idea for adventures - i.e. the equipment is missing vital spare parts which can only be found in XXXXX and the party is tasked with getting them

[Legbreaker]

Also bear in mind nukes are essentially a dual purpose weapon.
Firstly there's the blast and thermal damage, basically everything that happens to the target in the first few minutes and hours.
Secondly there's the lasting fallout and radioactive zone which conventional munitions don't have. This is probably an even more important factor than the initial strike when deciding on targets. If an area can be denied to the enemy over a long period of time...
I've mentioned it numerous times over the years how valuable fear can be for an attacker. A factory worker hears a report about the city a few hundred miles away with a plant that builds APCs getting nuked. Their own city has a plant building SP artillery. Will he show up for work the next day, or grab his family, load up the car with everything they can carry, and get the hell out of town?
Nukes are MUCH scarier than conventional weapons, even chemical and biologicals. Conventional explosions can kill of course, but they generally don't have a lasting effect. Chemical and biologicals generally don't have blast damage, and their other, main effects, can generally be mitigated somewhat. Nuclear weapons on the other hand do initial blast as well as the terrifying lasting effects of radiation.

[/rambling]

[Raellus]

Triple action. Don't forget EMP.

[Legbreaker]

Triple action. Don't forget EMP.

How did I forget that!
I suppose you could lump it into the more immediate effects. By itself though it's not likely to kill many people, and it's effects are repairable.
Problem is of course the actual explosion and aftermath make it very, very difficult to repair the EMP damage in any sort of shortish time frame.

[Olefin]

FYI in this case the plant building the APC's and the SPG are the same factory - i.e. the BAE plant in York PA

which we know wasnt nuked

One thing I would consider in a campaign is you can get too nuke happy - i.e. this is a limited nuclear war - thus you arent going to get nukes hitting targets everywhere - not unless you want to change the backstory to a general nuclear exchange

now Europe is different - keep in mind that there you are dealing with battlefield and theater nukes - something you wont see in the US outside of Canada and Alaska - also you can have a hell of a disruption with a nuke with no blast at all - i.e. a pure EMP strike alone - which will fry a hell of a lot of electronics all by itself and cause almost no damage unless you are looking at the higher altitude burst - but screw things up royally on ground when cars wont start, electrical generating stations shut down, computer control systems burn out, etc..

[Olefin]

FYI - you may want to update your map with the Canadian strikes as well - not all of them but the ones close to the border would definitely affect the US - meaning you didnt get any strikes in western NY but you did get strikes against Canada that would send refugees streaming south for sure into that area

[Olefin]

and for added environment while reading this thread you can watch nuke detonation videos

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2018/07/09/never-before-seen-cold-war-videos-declassified.html