List of European Nuke Strikes?

[natehale1971]

I was wondering... are there any lists or maps showing the European nuke strikes?

[Rainbow Six]

I've never seen one anywhere.

[Benjamin]

I don't recall seeing any definitive Target List for mainland Europe. There was very fine line between the tactical exchange on military targets and the targeting of rear area strategic targets with tactical nuclear warheads. This of course morphed into a full strategic nuclear exchange using long range ballistic weapons with yields near or above the megaton range.

To compile any sort of list, one would have to read all of the European based source material to get information directly from the text. This would be very time consuming and almost certainly reveal at least some contradictions. Many of the references of nuclear strike locations within the various modules seemed to be plot driven, though there is often a direct connection to a past military campaign in the area. Unfortunately, there was never an in depth military history of the war that covered all of the major operations and campaigns.

We might be able to work up a decent Target List for France, Belgium, Mexico and a few other neutrals based upon known oil facilities and important strategic targets.

Benjamin

[Targan]

The map that came with the v.1 boxed set and the similar map that came with Going Home showed the cities that had been nuked (although some could have been reduced to rubble in other ways). As Benjamin says, it would be time consuming to transcribe them all. As a GM I try to keep detailed notes of randomly generated radiated areas that were tac nuke targets.

[kato13]

The map that came with the v.1 boxed set and the similar map that came with Going Home showed the cities that had been nuked (although some could have been reduced to rubble in other ways). As Benjamin says, it would be time consuming to transcribe them all. As a GM I try to keep detailed notes of randomly generated radiated areas that were tac nuke targets.

Thanks for reminding me of this Targan.

I finally got a chance to look at these maps. Cities listed in Parentheses are show as rubble. Given the extent of devastation present on the maps I am going to assume that these are tac nukes.

As for being time consuming I just mapped out 520 canon units so the Strikes will be no problem.

[kato13]

Here are the 88 cities listed as rubble on the 2 maps GDW provided (From The Basic Rules and Going Home Module)

Brest, Belarus
Grodno , Belarus
Antwerpen, Belgium
Gent, Belgium
Prague , Czech
Ostrava, Czech Republic
Lille, France
Berlin, Germany
Bonn, Germany
Borchum, Germany
Bremen, Germany
Dortmund, Germany
Dresden, Germany
Duisburg, Germany
Dusseldorf, Germany
Emmerich, Germany
Erfurt, Germany
Essen, Germany
Frankfurt an Oder, Germany
Gara, Germany
Gorlitz, Germany
Gotha, Germany
Hagen, Germany
Hamburg, Germany
Hannover, Germany
Honnef, Germany
Jena, Germany
Karl-Marx-Stadt, Germany
Kiel, Germany
Koln, Germany
Leipzig, Germany
Lubeck, Germany
Mulheim, Germany
Munchen Gladbach, Germany
Operhausen, Germany
Rees, Germany
Remagen, Germany
Siegen, Germany
Wesel, Germany
Wuppertal, Germany
Zwickau, Germany
Alphen ad Rijn, Netherlands
Amsterdam , Netherlands
Breskens, Netherlands
Delft, Netherlands
Dordrecht, Netherlands
Elten, Netherlands
Gorinchem, Netherlands
Gouda, Netherlands
Haarlem, Netherlands
Hoek van Holland, Netherlands
Katwijk aan Zee, Netherlands
Leiden, Netherlands
Middelharris, Netherlands
Rotterdam, Netherlands
s Gravenhage, Netherlands
Terneuzen, Netherlands
Utrecht, Netherlands
Vllssingen, Netherlands
Zevenaar, Netherlands
Bialystok, Poland
Bydgoszcz, Poland
Bytom, Poland
Chorzow, Poland
Czestochowa, Poland
Elblag, Poland
Gdansk, Poland
Gilwice, Poland
Gorzow Wielkop, Poland
Jelenia Gora, Poland
Katowice, Poland
Kielce, Poland
Loniza, Poland
Olsztyn, Poland
Opole, Poland
Poznan, Poland
Przemysl, Poland
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland
Stargard, Poland
Szczecin, Poland
Tarnow, Poland
Warsaw, Poland
Wloclawek, Poland
Wroclaw, Poland
Zabrze, Poland
Kovel , Ukraine
Lviv, Ukraine


Here are Canon strikes I received from Chico (thanks again)

Bytom, Poland (Black Madonna)
Chorzow, Poland (BM)
Czestokowa, Poland (BM)
Gliwice, Poland (BM))
Katowice, Poland (BM)
Nowa Huta, Poland (Free City)
Radom, Poland
Sosnowiec, Poland (BM)
Tarnow, Poland (Soviet Vehicle Guide)
Warsaw, Poland

This makes me think it is going to be a pretty good match. I will however remove several cities on the Rhine which are listed as rubble. The devastation on the Rhine is total, and I don't think the Soviets would have concentrated on those areas (neglecting others). I believe most of the devastation is due to the conflict with the French which I believe did not have any nukes involved. Though if a city has a large refinery I will still probably nuke it.

[Mohoender]

I reviewed the list given by Kato (taken from basic rules) and disagreed on a few cities. I also found that several were missed. As a result, I tried to complete this list and give it country by country. I left UK aside (as I like the target listed in the game) and I didn’t cover Scandinavia as I consider that it might not have been targeted at all. I also considered that very little city strike hit south-eastern Europe except for one on Ankara (Turkey). However, a number of tactical strikes were registered on the battlefields.

Baltic states region:
- Kaliningrad.

Belarus:
- Brest-Litovsk (Brest)
- Grodno
- Minsk

Ukraine:
- Cerkassy
- Lvov (Lviv)
- Kovel
- Kiev
- Odessa

Poland: report to Kato’s list.

Czech Republic: report to Kato’s list.

Germany: report to Kato’s list.
However, I disagree with Kato on one thing, I considered the Rhineland to be levelled and even add several among the cities that are geographically closed.(such as Frankfurt on Mainz)

Netherlands: entirely agree (poor Dutch).

Belgium: (No reason to bomb Ghent, that is a non-sense)
- Antwerpen
- Ostende
- Brussel

France:
- Lille (several hit on Calais, Cambrai, Denain, Dunkirk, Lille and Valencienne).
- Strasburg
- Le Havre
- Brest
- Lorient (nuclear sub base)
- Toulouse (aircraft and space industries)
I consider that Lyon and Marseille survived leaving two major refineries intact.

Italy:
- Torino
- Milano
- Bologna
- Napoli
- Tarento

Portugal
- Lissabon
- Porto (the city survived but the northern area was nuked because of the refinery there)

Spain
- Barcelona
- Bilbao
- Madrid
- Zaragossa
- Valencia
- Cadiz

Italy, Portugal and Spain were not primary targets but I consider that their industrial centers were hit.

[Fusilier]

I reviewed the list given by Kato (taken from basic rules) and disagreed on a few cities. I also found that several were missed.

I believe his are cannon listed hits.

[kato13]

Yeah My hits are canon hits but I will map any list someone works out. Mohoender we will have to discuss the warhead size for your strike targets in addition to your OOBs.

Wasn't sure if you have seen my maps (ok now I am sure as I checked the server logs) but this is what I am going for. (These are all canon listed strikes)

Map of CONUS Nuke strikes.
Map of Canadian Nuclear Targets
Map of USSR nuclear strikes.
Map of British Nuclear Targets


A few USSR hits are wrong (because I listened to Google over Chico Doh!). If you have any questions of want an excel file of the hits let me know.

[Mohoender]

I believe his are cannon listed hits.

I understood that. I was not saying that I disagreed with Kato. I disagree with cannon. Nevertheless, the level of disagreement is not that high.

A point with which I disagree almost entirely, however, are the Kt/Mt level given per cannon. But, from memory (and according to informations available at the time) they make sense.

When you look at the USA, for exemple, it feels strange when you know what ICBM/SLBM were available to soviet union:

about 30 SS-24 Scalpel (10x550kt MIRV). (not retired)

150 SS-17 Spanker (4x550kt MIRV or 750kt single warhead). (retired in 1994)

200-300 SS-18 Satan (20-25Mt single warhead or 10x550kt MIRV). (not entirely retired or replaced by Mod.5). The 20-25Mt warheads were targeted at US ICBM base and hardened commands.

about 50 SS-13 Savage (750kt single warhead). (retired in 1995)

250-300 SS-25 Sickle (550kt single warhead). (not retired)

SS-N-6 Serb on Yankee I (possibly 1MT but more probably 3x200kt MIRV) (retired in 1994)

250-300 SS-N-8 Sawfly on Delta I and II (1MT single warhead). (not retired but reduced in number)

200-250 SS-N-18 Stingray on Delta III (400kt single warhead or 7x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

120 SS-N-20 sturgeon on Typhoon (10x100kt MIRV). (not retired but reduced in number)

This would be for missiles targeting US alone. As a result, I would expect several 20Mt burst to have occured and several target would have been hit by MIRV instead of single warheads. NATO would certainly have used more MIRV and little high power single warhead. Then, I find logical for the french to have retained their SLBM in reserve.

In Europe, I would expect SRBM and MRBM not to be withdrawn and to see extensive use toward second level targets (cities of Poland and targets in eastern europe, for exemple) and on the battlefield.

These would include

for US: MGM-31A Pershing, MGM-31B Pershing II and MGM-52 Lance. Funny how people focussed on the Pershing (200-250 in US and 150-200 in Germany) while 1000 Lance launcher had been deployed (and more than 2000 missiles manufactured).:D

for Russia: SS-23 Spider (127 and 64 launchers). Scud had been retired since the 1970's and replaced by 400 SS-20 Saber. May be 60 SS-4 sandal (unsure).

for France: Pluton (109 and 70 launchers). Actually these would have been replaced by Hadès prior to the war. 18 SSBS S-3 on the Albion Plateau.

You can expect several of the french Pluton/Hadès to have been launched on Germany and Netherlands.

At last you can add the cruise missiles (but several will not be equipped with nukes).
for US: about 1500.
for the soviets: about 1500.

In addition France would use the ASMP (on Mirage IV, Mirage 2000 and Super Etendard).

[pmulcahy11b]

For Europe, canon hits aren't everything. There will be small tactical nuke hits as well, where nukes were used against enemy units, airfields, and smaller naval bases or to deny areas to the enemy. There will the remains of backpack-type nukes that were used to take out division or corps HQ (or higher) units, dams, large ammunition storage facilities, and other small but high-value targets.

[kato13]

For Europe, canon hits aren't everything. There will be small tactical nuke hits as well, where nukes were used against enemy units, airfields, and smaller naval bases or to deny areas to the enemy. There will the remains of backpack-type nukes that were used to take out division or corps HQ (or higher) units, dams, large ammunition storage facilities, and other small but high-value targets.

Yeah those are going to be hard to nail down.

Currently I have the following mapped
T2k Canon
Morrow Project Expanded

I plan to map the following
Mohoender Expanded List
DC Groups
Morrow Project Canon

As I have said before I am willing to map any list someone gives me and my mapping software can support as many options as I am exposed to. Realistically this is currently limited to about 25 options from a restriction on display size, but I can code around that if necessary.

[Trooper]

Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmö 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
Lingköping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
Göteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.

[kato13]

Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmö 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
Lingköping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
Göteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.

Nice. Thanks.

[pmulcahy11b]

Target list from Nordic sourcebook.

I do appreciate the info -- but where did you get the Nordic Sourcebook, and has it been translated into English by anyone yet?

[Mohoender]

I do appreciate the info -- but where did you get the Nordic Sourcebook, and has it been translated into English by anyone yet?

Sob! I think no :(. I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.;)

[Trooper]

Sob! I think no :(. I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.;)

"Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks."

If you are really intrested to get that sourcebook in english you should send email to FFE or you can send email to Mr Janne Kemppi who wrote that book. Kemppi is still active in finish scifi, RPG and manga scenes.

[General Pain]

"Copyright gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to any expressible form of an idea or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize "moral rights" of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks."

If you are really intrested to get that sourcebook in english you should send email to FFE or you can send email to Mr Janne Kemppi who wrote that book. Kemppi is still active in finish scifi, RPG and manga scenes.

which language is it written in ?

[pmulcahy11b]

Sob! I think no :(. I already asked trooper to translate it but he doesn't seem to be that motivated.;)

Could someone translate it into Engrish then? :p

[Targan]

Could someone translate it into Engrish then? :p
I had a feeling it was Finnish. Wait, we have a Finn or two registered here don't we?

[Kemper Boyd]

Necroing this thread:

The Nordic sourcebook is actually in conflict with the finnish translation of the 2.2 main rulebook, which mentions that the Finnish oil refineries are untouched, and in fact no Nordic country was targeted by nuclear weapons.

Actually I think completely ignoring the Nordic sourcebook isn't a bad idea, since the quality of the text isn't too hot and it's frankly full of terribly bad ideas more suited for something like Macho Women With Guns.

[kato13]

Necroing this thread:

The Nordic sourcebook is actually in conflict with the finnish translation of the 2.2 main rulebook, which mentions that the Finnish oil refineries are untouched, and in fact no Nordic country was targeted by nuclear weapons.

Actually I think completely ignoring the Nordic sourcebook isn't a bad idea, since the quality of the text isn't too hot and it's frankly full of terribly bad ideas more suited for something like Macho Women With Guns.

No nukes hitting Nordic countries seems odd to me. I would expect at an absolute minimum Norwegian refineries would be hit. Unless they were already devastated fully by conventional weapons.

[Legbreaker]

Agreed. Refineries, power stations, mines and habour facilities all make extremely good and tempting targets. Although the refineries are fairly obvious, anywhere significant repairs could be carried out to shipping would have to be a prime target also. Norway, Denmark and Sweden are ideally located to support Nato naval strength and hinder Soviet naval efforts, not just in the Baltic and North Sea, but in the artic as well.

[Cdnwolf]

From Mediterranean Cruise...

The escalating nuclear exchanges struck Italy in late 1997.
Strikes on military targets turned into strikes on industrial targets
important to the war effort. After these came attacks on
economic targets of military importance. Italy had no oil deposits
of significance, but the Alps teem with hydroelectric power
generating plants, and these were deemed of sufficient military
importance to warrant destruction (several high-altitude bursts
did the job by electromagnetic pulse). Italy’s industrial north was
devastated, and the flood of refugees soon caused the civilian
government to collapse. A number of replacement governments
rose, lasted for a few months, and then fell.

Greece received its share of thermonuclear bombs in late
1997, and the government soon collapsed under the strain. A
military revolt. put a junta of generals in charge, who annexed
Macedonia but soon fell to fighting among themselves

The strike on Ankara destroyed the government, and attacks
on the ports and naval facilities on the Aegean and the Black
Sea crippled the Turkish military. The bomb intended for Istanbul
landed in the Sea of Marmara instead. The waves from the
blast inflicted serious damage on the port facilities in the city,
but left its buildings mostly intact.

With the strategic exchanges of late 1997, the Ploesti oil fields
of Romania were the subject of some nuclear strikes, but for
reasons not completely understood, the refineries and oil production
facilities were not completely destroyed and were beginning
to become operational again by mid-2000.

[John Farson]

Indeed, the Nordic sourcebook and the Finnish Twilight 2000 sourcebook do contradict each other with regards to the state of the Nordic countries. The Finnish sourcebook has this to say about Scandinavia:

Although no Scandinavian country suffered from strategic nuclear attacks, they suffered significantly in the 1997-98 Lapland war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. The cessation of world trade has made life ever harder. Most of Scandinavia's cities are independent or isolated, although the southern areas are mostly organized. In the northern areas which suffered from the Lapland war there are military cantonments, destroyed or anarchy -riven territory. (Although Scandinavia does have the only intact oil refineries in Europe besides Ploesti, such as the Neste refinery in Porvoo, they are so far away from crude oil production areas as to be useless. -editor.)

I think one of the reasons for this is the different time periods. The Nordic sourcebook was published in 1990 I believe, and it therefore has the v. 1.0 setting, where the USSR is the villain. The Finnish sourcebook is from 1993 as you know, and it provides its own interpretation of v. 2.2, such as Russia instead of the USSR being at war with NATO.

Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.

When I've finished with posting the timeline of the Finnish sourcebook, I'll proceed to posting the state of the world as described in the Finnish sourcebook, as well as information about the state of the Nordic countries as described in the Nordic sourcebook.

[kato13]

strategic nuclear attacks

That leaves a whole lot of tactical and operational nuke wiggle room.

The V1 and V2 differences make a lot of sense as well.

[Legbreaker]

I believe that virtually no strategic missiles were fired at any target besides those during November 1997 (and again in early 98).
Any nuke fired outside these two periods is almost certainly tactical in nature.

This is not to say every nuke during these periods could be termed strategic though. The ground war continued to rage and as had been the case for several months, tactical nukes were still being used.

It is possible that tactical nukes could have been used throughout the war, from the first shot in China right up to summer 2000. They are unlikely to have been all that common in the latter stages though.

[Kemper Boyd]

Personally, I agree with the others that the locations as mentioned in the Nordic sourcebook would have been targeted by the Russians.

I would disagree, because for the reason mentioned in the 2.2, the finnish petrochemical industry would be mostly useless and of no strategic importance. In a strategic exchange the refineries could be plastered with nuclear weapons, but it's more unlikely to happen in the context of the limited exchange that took place in the 2.2 timeline.

The Nordic countries had ceased to have any strategic importance whatsoever after the NATO-Russia northern front stalled and the naval conflict was mostly over with.

[Legbreaker]

No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.

Note that it wouldn't require an ICBM to do the job either. A sub or even Fast Attack Craft should be able to deliver the package.

[Targan]

I have to agree. Given some of the other industrial infrastructure that was nuked and seemed to be of lesser strategic value, I'd assume pretty much all of Scandinavia's petrochemical processing infrastructure would have been targeted either by conventional or nuclear strikes.

[Kemper Boyd]

No strategic importance? You are joking right?

Even without oil coming from Norway's north sea oil rigs, an undamaged refinery is of vital importance. It only takes one shipment of oil from somewhere else and suddenly "boom" you've got yourself a mobile division or two.


The Finnish and the Swedish armies are the ones in Europe which are practically untouched. The refineries would have a strategic value if they were somewhere else, but as long as there are intact armies to control them, neither NATO or the Russians are going to get use of them.

And by the time the nuclear strikes in Europe start, the conflict in Scandinavia is practically over and neither Finland or Sweden are engaged. Nuking the refineries "just because" doesn't seem to fit in, since there is no benefit in doing so for either NATO or Russia. Might happen in a general strategic exchange, but not in the "couple of warheads at a time" nuclear exchange that takes place in Twilight 2000.

[Rainbow Six]

Isn't it specifiically mentioned in one of the modules (Boomer I think) that Norway is targeted by the Soviet during the 1997 strategic exchange?

[kato13]

Isn't it specifiically mentioned in one of the modules (Boomer I think) that Norway is targeted by the Soviet during the 1997 strategic exchange?

Yep.

By November, the tactical exchanges had gone strategic,
and Norway did not escape.
Along with attacks on industrial centers, a nuclear bomb was
directed at Oslo, the capital. King Harald, who refused to abandon
the seat of government in the face of enemy attack, died
in the blast along with the Statsrad (state council) and most of
the Storting. Over a half a million Norwegians died in the attacks
on the capitol, the major industrial centers, and the nation's
petroleum facilities. The nation's naval bases at Horten,
Haakonsvern, Ramsund, and Olavsvern were destroyed or
severely damaged.

[John Farson]

Not to mention the fact that according to the Nordic sourcebook 3/4 of Norway's population was wiped out in the nuclear exchange and its aftermath. If a 1 Mt strike on Oslo doesn't constitute a strategic nuclear attack, I don't know what does.

Much as I like the Finnish sourcebook, this claim about Scandinavia being untouched by nuclear attack strikes me as a flaw. Maybe it was a case of wishful thinking by the authors ("Even if there was a nuclear war, we're so tiny and insignificant that the Russians wouldn't bother to nuke us, no sir... Please, please god let it be so")

[pmulcahy11b]

Yes, the lack of Scandinavian nuke strikes is completely unbelievable. But blend the two timelines (from canon and the Scandinavian Sourcebook) and you have something good.

[Kemper Boyd]

Much as I like the Finnish sourcebook, this claim about Scandinavia being untouched by nuclear attack strikes me as a flaw. Maybe it was a case of wishful thinking by the authors ("Even if there was a nuclear war, we're so tiny and insignificant that the Russians wouldn't bother to nuke us, no sir... Please, please god let it be so")

The bizarre thing is that its the same guys who wrote the Nordic sourcebook.

Essentially, it's of course up to how you want to see it: there's no real canon to go by here. If I would run a game where nuclear strikes against Finland and Sweden would figure, I'd probably adjust the list given in the Nordic sourcebook, since the list is sorta counter-intuitive. The oil refineries are way overprioritized over actual military assets, considering the distance to oil production and the narrow seaways to the refineries, they can be dealt with differently.

[Legbreaker]

The Finnish and the Swedish armies are the ones in Europe which are practically untouched.

Well that statement is just completely wrong.

While I can't say with any certainty about Sweden without refering back to the books, I know for a fact Finland STRONGLY resisted both Soviet and NATO offensives through their country. They fought so hard and effectively they forced the Soviet offensive against NATO forces in Norway to falter and the Nato command to reassess their plans on a strategic scale after they too met with effective military resistance.

Do you really think the troops on the ground wouldn't have shot back at the Finns? Can you honestly say the industry and resources Finland possesses wouldn't have been subjected to AT LEAST intensive conventional strikes?

Anyone who believes that has got to be living in a dreamland.

We had a discussion recently about Australia and whether or not it would have been nuked. As a country not involved in the multiple wars in the northern hemisphere (although possibly in Korea as part of the UN), and the fact it's on the other side of the planet, the concensus was the country WAS nuked. A country in the direct line of fire such as Finland (and possibly Sweden) wouldn't have had a chance.

[kato13]

Well that statement is just completely WRONG.

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

[Kemper Boyd]

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

The exact expression in the 2.2 main rulebook is "the two least damaged armies in Europe" from the timeline, from the spring of 1997. After that, Finland and Sweden aren't mentioned anymore in the timeline.

It of course helps that this campaign was fought in Lapland, which has low population and little infrastructure to be damaged.


We had a discussion recently about Australia and whether or not it would have been nuked. As a country not involved in the multiple wars in the northern hemisphere (although possibly in Korea as part of the UN), and the fact it's on the other side of the planet, the concensus was the country WAS nuked. A country in the direct line of fire such as Finland (and possibly Sweden) wouldn't have had a chance.

I actually read the Australia thread and didn't reach the same conclusions :)

What I consider the most important criteria for justifying military activity in the context of the game is "What is the strategic gain?". Denying the enemy strategic resources is of course a net gain, but it has to be weighted with other strategical considerations. Extending the all-out war isn't always good, especially if the nuclear strikes are done as a part of limited nuclear war.

[John Farson]

But as everyone who's read about Twilight 2000 knows, even the limited nuclear war dealt immense damage to the world. Countries like Australia, Sweden, Finland etc., you don't even need to use that many (or powerful) nukes to screw them up.

I don't remember where, but somewhere I read that you'd only need about 100 or so nukes to completely destroy the United States as an organized entity, maybe even less. Though it had its flaws, Jericho did a good job in showing how even 23 Hiroshima-size bombs detonated in as many cities could deal a hell of a lot of damage to the U.S. Total nuclear war is like two guys firing rocket launchers at each other: their bodies will blow apart. The limited nuclear war as described in T2K is more like two guys blowing each other's heads off with sniper rifles: the rest of the torso may be intact, but it's no good if your brains are all over the wall.

Considering this, I find it to be no stretch of the imagination to consider that the Russians would have had no problem in expending a few nukes to make sure that Scandinavia (and Australia too, for that matter) would pose no problem for what remained of Russia in the post-nuke world. You can bet that the Americans would have the same policy. Heck, both sides have people whose sole job is to figure out how many nukes are needed and where the targets would be.

P.S: I'll post this later when describing the Nordic countries in the Nordic sourcebook but I might as well post it in brief. While the Finnish Army didn't suffer particularly heavy casualties in the war itself, the ensuing chaos forced the army to split into numerous smaller units in order to better provide order. Also, the collapse in agriculture has caused most of the army to be demobilized in order to provide manpower for agriculture. At the moment the army is in peacetime levels (And it's not as if Russia is in any shape to threaten with invasion.). Oh yes, Finland is run by a military dictator who titles himself as "Marshal of Finland", like the late Marshal Mannerheim. As for Sweden, that country is locked in a messy and brutal civil war between the Royal and Republican armies. So I think it's safe to say that neither army is particularly intact. Well maybe the Finnish army, but it's been drastically scaled back, and is more geared for policing the country than anything else. Oh yes, and the Helsinki Metropolitan Area (meaning Helsinki, Espoo (the 2nd largest city in Finland) and Vantaa) is a no-man's-land, ruled by gangs of criminals, punks, Roma, skinheads and others.

[Legbreaker]

The exact expression in the 2.2 main rulebook is "the two least damaged armies in Europe" from the timeline, from the spring of 1997.

I'm curious to know where exactly that is wrtten as I certainly can't find it in the 2.2 book....

As I think can be seen in the translations John has been kindly posting, it seems clear that the Finnish book is written to reflect local needs and perceptions rather than following canon to the letter. It is therefore fair to say it's more of an alternate reality than extension - very useful and interesting, however my personal believe is the GDW material should have priority where there is disagreement. Naturally everyone is free to do what they like as always.

With that in mind, I think we can understand why the same writer has contradicted themselves - The Finnish book wasn't intended for sale and use out of one small area (or it would have been officially tranlated and published) and was written with that market in mind. A completely understandable position and something I'd probably do myself if it meant me being paid or not for my work.

Regarding who got nuked how hard, we have an indication in "What's Polish for G'day" that Australia and France were not "irradiated", however this could be explained by the Australian tendancy to exaggerate unimportant details. In the context of the adventure, it doesn't matter what state these two countries are in - everything happens in Poland.

I believe we also have other information from a number of sources including the 2.2 timeline that France was nuked.In Europe, France and Belgium had been hit the lightest and stand virtually alone in maintaining a semblance of internal order throughout the cataclysm.France of course was at the time at least neutral, if not quietly hostile to Nato. This raises the question "can Finland and Sweden be classed as part of Europe?" My thoughts are definately yes.

[Cdnwolf]

Have we looked at the effect a major nuclear attack would have on the world besides normal fallout? Massive firestorms laying waste to valuable farmland, contaminated water sources, chemical spills from ruptured and destroyed plants...

I think the effects of the bombs are being understated...


http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/nukergv.html

At 11:59 the Valley had a population of 797,000 and Brownsville contained 135,000 people. At 2:00 PM the Valley's population is 449,000 (including 104,000 injured seriously enough to require hospitalization under normal conditions), and only 1,700 people from Brownsville survive. A total of 568,000 have been killed and 310,000 injured in Texas and Mexico.

As far as 290 km (180 miles) downwind of these explosions--including Harlingen--exposed persons develop radiation sickness and 50% die within 2 months--assuming they are uninjured. Nearly all persons with severe injuries who receive this dose will die within a month. In the Brownsville area most survivors develop radiation sickness by 6:30 the night after the attack. Most pregnant women miscarry their babies, and after two months the radiation sickness has killed 30% of those uninjured and 50% of those injured. In Matamoros and South Padre Island, about half those exposed develop radiation sickness to some degree, brain damage is produced in 20% of unborn babies, the immune system is impaired, and some deaths occur.


By five years post-attack, the Rio Grande Valley is almost recognizable. Pre-attack radiation standards would declare the rest of the Valley safe--although the devastated Brownsville, McAllen, and Raymondville areas remain unrebuilt. Cancer and genetic defects are now emerging in Valley survivors, and will continue to emerge throughout one and several generations, respectively. These will not pose major threats compared to other problems (because any amount of radiation sufficient to produce these effects to a truly significant degree would destroy the exposed population outright)--in fact, fear of these effects could be worse than the effects themselves. Genetic disorders will be noticeable in no more than 5% of the babies born in the area over the next few generations, and many of these defects will not be especially harmful. Induced cancer cases will be similar in quantity to levels produced by cigarette smoking in the population.

[Kemper Boyd]

I'm curious to know where exactly that is wrtten as I certainly can't find it in the 2.2 book....

I was supposed to mention that it's in the finnish 2.2 rulebook, apparently forgot to mention that :)

[Legbreaker]

I was supposed to mention that it's in the finnish 2.2 rulebook, apparently forgot to mention that :)

See my previous comments on the Finnish sourcebook...

As your quoted statement is included in an obscure book intended for a small and select section of the T2K population, it's hard to say it's really "core material".

[chico20854]

But as everyone who's read about Twilight 2000 knows, even the limited nuclear war dealt immense damage to the world. Countries like Australia, Sweden, Finland etc., you don't even need to use that many (or powerful) nukes to screw them up.

I don't remember where, but somewhere I read that you'd only need about 100 or so nukes to completely destroy the United States as an organized entity, maybe even less. Though it had its flaws, Jericho did a good job in showing how even 23 Hiroshima-size bombs detonated in as many cities could deal a hell of a lot of damage to the U.S. Total nuclear war is like two guys firing rocket launchers at each other: their bodies will blow apart. The limited nuclear war as described in T2K is more like two guys blowing each other's heads off with sniper rifles: the rest of the torso may be intact, but it's no good if your brains are all over the wall.

Considering this, I find it to be no stretch of the imagination to consider that the Russians would have had no problem in expending a few nukes to make sure that Scandinavia (and Australia too, for that matter) would pose no problem for what remained of Russia in the post-nuke world. You can bet that the Americans would have the same policy. Heck, both sides have people whose sole job is to figure out how many nukes are needed and where the targets would be.

This is an issue that has been brought up here and on the previous RPGHost forum numerous times over the years, and, not surprisingly, we as a group always end up agreeing to disagree. Ultimately, I feel its up to each GM to decide what level of devastation his T2k universe has. With that said, I agree completely with the above. While we can all come up with a great many potential nuclear targets (I have a list of over 1450 Pact ones, some of which could conceivably take over 350 warheads), the breakdown portrayed in T2k (of whatever version) doesn't require all of them, or even 25% of them, to actually be hit. A modern economy, particularly a war economy, is a large and delicate instrument, a very complicated system of systems, that is relatively easy to upset. (In WWII in Europe, the USAAF had a campaign to strike the ball bearings plants as a way to cripple the German economy, as was the successful effort to starve the Wehrmacht of fuel.) A massive strike of thousands of warheads or hitting every conceivable target is simply unnecessary to create the breakdown portrayed in T2k (of any version). (And some assets will be shut down without a strike - we have discussed the possibility of refinery workers not reporting to work once other refineries have been hit, and Howling Wilderness, I believe, mentions that the nuclear power plants were taken offline to avoid damage.)

With that said, I could see the nuclear powers sparing a few warheads for targets that could be used by their opponent for eventual reconstruction (such as the Finnish refineries, no matter what their distance from oilfields would be), but it wouldn't be too widespread. Why? Given the immense destructive power of a even a limited strike, a large-scale nuclear exchange would result in us playing Gamma World rather than T2k.

[Legbreaker]

I agree. While it is fairly easy to come up with a list of potential targets, hitting more than a small proportion of them is obviously not what's happened in T2K.

The difficulty we all face as GMs and writers is coming up with a list of strategic targets that barely achieves the chaos and destruction necessary, then throw in a few more for flavour.

With regard to smaller tactical nukes, I say it's a free for all. Throw 'em around like confetti! But the big stuff that requires a bit more than a 203mm howitzer, that needs to be tightly controlled.

[Kemper Boyd]

The difficulty we all face as GMs and writers is coming up with a list of strategic targets that barely achieves the chaos and destruction necessary, then throw in a few more for flavour.

I'd say that for chaos and destruction, the minimum amount is actually quite small: most people don't die of nuclear warfare, but the side effects. International trade stops, which causes food shortages. Health care and hospitals are overloaded and with lack of electricity and communications, it kills lots of people. Unburied bodies cause epidemics, which increase the breakdown of society, since people in government either die or leave their posts, or are faced with inadequate resources for dealing with the crisis. The only analogue of a post-nuclear war situation we have is the Black Death, and it shows some interesting phenomena: total breakdown even during that crisis was fairly rare. The rule of law was never completely abandoned anywhere, though public order slipped badly. John Kelly's "The Great Mortality" is an interesting book to read regarding the subject.

The European theater is a spectrum of how bad things are. Austria has ceased to exist, Poland and Germany are warzones, Belgium and France are mostly keeping it together. Most of the UK is in chaos, but has a stable government and is going to recover. Switzerland is untouched by the conflict, but feels the side effects.

[sic1701]

Am I the only one wondering what has become of all those nuclear weapons, on all sides, that went unused during the Twilight War?

If, indeed, the line was inched across in dribs and drabs and no one went for the throat on a true counterforce strike, then somewhere there must be some Minuteman IIIs and SS-24s and SS-25s out there waiting in the wings for proper authority.

Or has that been covered in one of the rulebooks?

[chico20854]

Am I the only one wondering what has become of all those nuclear weapons, on all sides, that went unused during the Twilight War?

If, indeed, the line was inched across in dribs and drabs and no one went for the throat on a true counterforce strike, then somewhere there must be some Minuteman IIIs and SS-24s and SS-25s out there waiting in the wings for proper authority.

Or has that been covered in one of the rulebooks?

It hasn't been covered in the rulebooks.

The interpretation I take to the various Broken Arrow (loose nuke) scenarios is that the various authorities - Milgov, Civgov and the remnants of the Soviet government - want to maintain control of the remaining nuclear weapons. I believe there is a reference in Airlords of the Ozarks to Milgov sending a team into the remnants of Eaker Air Force Base shortly after it had been nuked to retrieve the warheads.

The warheads are probably sitting in a secure tunnel somewhere. Cheyenne Mountain (and its Russian equivalents)? The USAF also maintained a stockpile of inactive nuclear weapons at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM in underground/hardened facilities.

In addition to Minuteman IIIs, there are probably also bombers at various diversion fields - military and civilian airports with runways over 10,000 feet or so. I've got some ideas about these too...

[sic1701]

I think an excellent place to store "decommissioned" nuclear weapons would be the Yucca Mountain Site in Nevada, which was designed to store nuclear waste...what better place, as the gamma flux from the waste would help mask the prescence of weapons thought to be already disposed of.

I can't remember, is the Pantex facility in Amarillo on the strike list? Zlatoust, in the Ural Mountains, is probably the mountain storage facility you're thinking of; a gigantic sprawling site akin to the Manzano Mountain facility at Kirtland.

And, previous treaties aside, once open war broke out in Europe, I would imagine that both sides would again arm surface warships, dig out the air-launched nukes, etc. Just in case.

[stilleto69]

Chico -
Not to open sore wounds, but I think you covered such a case of several B-52's that had landed at Columbus AFB. During the DC Group's Recovery Plan. Which was one hell'va document if I say so myself.

[Trooper]

I agree but until I have full knowledge about what the contents of all the Finnish books are, I would probably not use all caps. There appears to be a serious disconnect within books published by the same author(s), so who knows what might be in print somewhere.

There is very simple explanation for all inconsistencies. I found an article that explained how the finnish Twilight 2000 material was created. GDW gave instructions that the finnish authors must respect canon materials like official timeline and history. Nordic sourcebook follows closely the information provided by Boomer and basic rules. Nordic sourcebook is V1 material.

Later GDW decided that there were no nuclear strikes in Scandinavia. You all know that there are minor differences if you have enough time to study V1, V2 and V2.2 editions. This is one of those.:rolleyes:

V 1

Norway

Oslo 1 Mt Political and industrial center.
Tromso 100 kt Naval base. Town destroyed.
Drammen 100 kt ground burst Petroleum industry. Town destroyed
Harstad 100 kt naval base. Town destroyd.
Bergen 100 kt naval base and harbour.
Stavanger 100 kt petroleum industry.
Horten 100 kt naval base.

Northern Norway badly damaged from tactical nukes and conventional warfare.

Sweden

Karlskoga 2 X 50 kt Defense industry. Town destroyed.
Nynäshamn 20 kt Petroleum industry
Malmà 20 kt Petroleum industry and harbour.
LingkÃping 50 kt Aircraft industry. Town destroyed.
GÃteborg 50 kt. Missile didnt hit targeted oil refinery. Minimal civilian casualties.

Stockholm City Badly damaged by Great fire of Stockholm in 1997. Reconstruction have been difficult because area is near frontline. (Swedish civil war.)

Finland

Helsinki 10 kt. Santahamina military base and petroleum industry area. Second cruise missile heading to downtown was shot down by airforce. In 2001 Helsinki area (including Vantaa and Espoo) is not under government control.
Upinniemi naval base 10 kt.
Naantali 50 kt Oil refinery and Pansio naval base. Firestorm destroyed large parts of Turku and Naantali.
Porvoo 10 kt Oil refinery. Town badly damaged in firestorm.

Iceland

Keflavik 100 kt airbase.

Denmark

Copenhagen destroyed by conventional bombing.


V2 & 2.2

Scandinavia: While nothing in the Scandinavian countries was subjected to nuclear attacks, the peninsula saw considerable fighting during 1997-98 between NATO and Soviet forces. Cut off from world trade, life is becoming increasingly difficult for most Scandinavians. Most of the cities of Scandinavia are independent or insular, althought broad regions in the south are organized. Areas int the north subjected to fighting during the war are either cantonments, devastated, or in anarchy.

[Panther Al]

It hasn't been covered in the rulebooks

The warheads are probably sitting in a secure tunnel somewhere. Cheyenne Mountain (and its Russian equivalents)? The USAF also maintained a stockpile of inactive nuclear weapons at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM in underground/hardened facilities.

In addition to Minuteman IIIs, there are probably also bombers at various diversion fields - military and civilian airports with runways over 10,000 feet or so. I've got some ideas about these too...

When it comes to Cheyenne Mountain I tend to think the designers dropped the ball. When I was stationed at Fort Carson we joked that in case of nuclear attack there would be no point in finding shelters. In V2.2 it says NORAD got a 3mt ground burst: It, Carson, and the Springs (including the academy) would be one crater. At rush hour you could be in the centre of the springs and be at the front gate of Norad in about 15 minutes. Hence, Milgov in my mind would be in Denver if in Colorado at all (maybe in rural Wyoming: heard from numerous sources there is a decent smallish command centre out there for british use in case the actual owners of some of the land is out that way when nukes start to fly).

[Bullet Magnet]

The Nordic sourcebook was published in 1990 I believe, and it therefore has the v. 1.0 setting, where the USSR is the villain.


Was this Nordic Sourcebook published in the US or no? I'd never heard of it until reading this thread tonight.

As far as Scandinavian targets, the 1st edition timeline does mention that at first, only "enemy" targets were hit with nukes, but eventually, neutral targets were hit as well, to prevent the enemy from seizing control of them.

Norway, being with NATO, would naturally have been attacked by the Pact. Sweden could have take a few hits when the combatants got around to neutral targets. Finland could be in the same boat as Sweden, but I think they also have some conflict with the Russians in their history; that may have the effect of exacerbating any Soviet strikes against them if anything.

[Fusilier]

As far as Scandinavian targets, the 1st edition timeline does mention that at first, only "enemy" targets were hit with nukes, but eventually, neutral targets were hit as well, to prevent the enemy from seizing control of them.

The timeline says that, but in the nation summaries further on it specifically says no nuclear targets in Scandinavia.

[pmulcahy11b]

The timeline says that, but in the nation summaries further on it specifically says no nuclear targets in Scandinavia.

That would require a general alteration of the long-range timeline -- Scandinavia could rival France for world power.

[Rainbow Six]

The timeline says that, but in the nation summaries further on it specifically says no nuclear targets in Scandinavia.

I'm certain that the Boomer module states that Norway was attacked with nuclear weapons. That may be the source of Trooper's list and / or anything published in the Finnish sourcebook - Oslo for sure was mentioned as a target.

[Trooper]

I'm certain that the Boomer module states that Norway was attacked with nuclear weapons. That may be the source of Trooper's list and / or anything published in the Finnish sourcebook - Oslo for sure was mentioned as a target.

Yes.

"By November, the tactical exchanges had gone strategic and Norway did not escape. Along with attacks on industrial canters, a nuclear bomb was directed at Oslo, the capital. King Harald, who refused to abandon the seat of goverment in the face of enemy attack, died in the blast along with the Statsrad (state council) and most of the Storting. Over half million Norwegians died, in attacks on the capitol, the major industrial centers, and the nations petroleum facilities. The nations naval bases at Horten, Haakonsvern, Ramsund and Olavsvern were destroyed or severely damageded."

Boomer p. 12.

For those who are wondering new inconsistencies. Boomer uses base names or municipality names and Nordic uses nearest town.

For example- Haakonsvern is naval base just outside Bergen.

Nordic source book uses material from Boomer (history of Norway and Finland in Twilight war). Danish and Norwegian OOB:s are from NATO Vehicle Guide. Cold weather rules are from Challenge 29.

If we speculate the situation in 1997 and 1998. Would the soviets use nuclear weapons against Finland and Sweden - the answer is certainly yes. Sweden was perhaps neutral but it was a pro-Western nation. During cold war Sweden had a very large air force and it also had very large military industrial capacity. Finland had already repelled soviet troops that tried to use its territory to chase fleeing NATO forces.

[Fusilier]

I'm certain that the Boomer module states that Norway was attacked with nuclear weapons. That may be the source of Trooper's list and / or anything published in the Finnish sourcebook - Oslo for sure was mentioned as a target.

Yes. Because Boomer is V1.

I was actually talking about V2.

[Legbreaker]

I tend to disagree with the 2.x statement about the lack of strikes in the north. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me what with all the resources and facilities in the area, not to mention military presence.
Perhaps it should be seen as no strategic strikes which would allow tactical nuke use.