What's the AV of a rucksack?

[pmulcahy11b]

Throughout history since vehicles came into heavy use, troops have hung their personal gear outside of the vehicle or put them in bustle racks. This serves two purposes: to clear out the cramped interior, and to protect the vehicle a bit.

The second one is what I'm talking about. It's been discovered in Iraq that simple things like personal gear can pre-detonate HEAT rounds. So what's the AV of a rucksack? A box of MREs? Someone's boom box? etc?

[copeab]

The second one is what I'm talking about. It's been discovered in Iraq that simple things like personal gear can pre-detonate HEAT rounds. So what's the AV of a rucksack? A box of MREs? Someone's boom box? etc?

AV 0, most likely. Just functions as (probably not very effective) standoff armor.

[natehale1971]

Actually... Rucksacks have been known to stop bullets of up to 7.62mm caliber. But i'm not sure what AV that would be classified as.

[kato13]

I would think the average for a full pack would end up being the same or a little less than a sand bag. Of course it depends on contents.

[leonpoi]

I would think the average for a full pack would end up being the same or a little less than a sand bag. Of course it depends on contents.
probably more like a sandbag if the content was sand :)

[kato13]

probably more like a sandbag if the content was sand :)

My assumption was that is was twice as thick. Packed clothing can have a density of 400 kg/M^3 and my overall average for military/personal equipment is 700kg/M^3. Sand is about 1800kg depending on how wet it is.

[headquarters]

causes the jet of molten copper from the round to disperse in a patern that greatly lessens the effects of it . I would deduct a few points from total penetration value if rounds went of in objects outside the armor hull. Sort of like a spaced armor variety .

In Jugoslavia we saw vehicles modified to withstand heat rounds and rpgs with cement,tiles,car tyres,chickenwire and of course the good old tank tracks across the hull.

Being a former crew man and cavalry man my self I would be damned before I had any of my ill begotten gains put into expensive gear riddled with shrapnel on the outside of the APC .

Though - on the M135 ( M113 w 2o mm turret ) we had , all our packs were stowed in what we called the cangaroo pouch . A huge canvas pouch strapped to the front of the tin can.

Mostly issue gear back then though - I guess the shooting company would replace from their budget .But rolling out a sleeping bag with hits from mg fire and shrapnel in an ice cold tent at night after a scrap would probably dent morale pretty good.

Lack of space inside was the reason for stowing outside though .

[General Pain]

Paul that's the best one yet.....LOL (how long is a string of string)

I'd guess it would depend of what's in it...

If it's packed with Iron or gold bars for some reason it would be pretty good
on the other hand
if its packed with dirty dipers som vials of the plague , a faulty frag , a bottle of acid, 3 molotov cocktails and a pund of heroin...well that would be a interily different matter...

all IMHO offcourse

[headquarters]

Paul that's the best one yet.....LOL (how long is a string of string)

I'd guess it would depend of what's in it...

If it's packed with Iron or gold bars for some reason it would be pretty good
on the other hand
if its packed with dirty dipers som vials of the plague , a faulty frag , a bottle of acid, 3 molotov cocktails and a pund of heroin...well that would be a interily different matter...

all IMHO offcourse
that reads like your PCs equipment list .( All firearms are carried on his person )

[jester]

I am guessing they would do a good job at protecting against low velocity stuff, pistols, shrapnel and maybe full sized mg and assault rifle rounds when they are near their max range and more or less spent.

But, the contents of the pack well, think about what we stuffed in the packs. A shelter half, 1 spare uniform, the boots if you carried extra may stop a round. But most things nope, they just contribute to stopping things.

One of the big reasons we put packs on the outside was room, so we could cram more guys in the truck. And so our packs are more accessible than just tossing them in the bed cramping your knees, rattling around, then the confusion of whose pack is whose when its time to off load. We had two trucks bog down on the drive to the city so in the end we have almost two platoons stuffed in the back of 1 duece, the bench seats were filled and then two rows of packs along the bed guys sat on.

So there is another reason for strapping them a lack of confusion and ease of access when you need them.

[pmulcahy11b]

if its packed with dirty dipers som vials of the plague , a faulty frag , a bottle of acid, 3 molotov cocktails and a pund of heroin...well that would be a interily different matter...

That leads to the inevitable question: why is your PC carrying those things around -- especially the dirty diapers?:confused:

[copeab]

I'd guess it would depend of what's in it...


Yes, we should be asking: What's the AV of a can of Spam?

[pmulcahy11b]

Yes, we should be asking: What's the AV of a can of Spam?

It's quite dense. It's the real secret behind Chobham.

[kato13]

It's quite dense. It's the real secret behind Chobham.


C =3
H = 8
O = 15
B = 2
H = 8
A = 1
M = 13
-----------
Tot= 50

S = 19
P = 16
A = 1
M = 13
--------------
Tot = 49

Pretty close. You might be on to something.

[Pfc SAFU]

I'm straping cans of SPAM to the LAV 25....Cheap fix at AV 49. Don't tell the Brits' Python fans will come out of the woodwork.

[pmulcahy11b]

I'm straping cans of SPAM to the LAV 25....Cheap fix at AV 49. Don't tell the Brits' Python fans will come out of the woodwork.

There's better armor available -- strap fruitcakes to the outside!

[Cdnwolf]

There's better armor available -- strap fruitcakes to the outside!

But wouldn't Targan squirm too much if you tied him to the outside?

[kato13]

But wouldn't Targan squirm too much if you tied him to the outside?

Odd member choice for that joke in my opinion. If we are going for gamewise nutty I would go for General Pain (with a bonus for his prosthetic limbs) or Major Po. But at least you didn't say it about Law. That might have ended almost 200 years of peace between our two countries.

[pmulcahy11b]

But wouldn't Targan squirm too much if you tied him to the outside?

We all have to make our little sacrifices...What is the AV of a human body anyway? Is there any truth to what we called Marines at the 82nd (self-propelled sandbags)?

[Legbreaker]

What is the AV of a human body anyway?
With or without kevlar?

:D

[Raellus]

We all have to make our little sacrifices...What is the AV of a human body anyway?

According to most action movies I've seen, pretty high. The goodguys are always using baddy redshirts to soak up loads of bullets from their baddy pals, usually at short range. The hero rarely even gets scratched.:rolleyes:

"Meatshield" = AV 2 ;)

[kato13]

What is the AV of a human body anyway?

Again going back to density:

Average Human body = 1010 kg/m³

So at the same thickness little more than half a sandbag.

[Legbreaker]

And as it takes a couple of properly packed sandbags to stop a 7.62N round....

Human AV = not enough to count much.

[pmulcahy11b]

And as it takes a couple of properly packed sandbags to stop a 7.62N round....

Human AV = not enough to count much.

Damn! So much for that human-body Chobham variant I was working on in my garage -- now what do I do with all the bodies of my victims?

[kato13]

Damn! So much for that human-body Chobham variant I was working on in my garage -- now what do I do with all the bodies of my victims?

Yet another thread I have to hide from the FBI ;)

[General Pain]

That leads to the inevitable question: why is your PC carrying those things around -- especially the dirty diapers?:confused:

hmm...I probably had one too many rum&cokes when I wrote that.... On the other hand it's a "post-apoc" scenario so I guess anything is possible....the chance of meeting a npc with said belongings in his rucksack could be possible...lots of deranged,weird,crazy,angry,disturbed and insane characters out there hehe

[General Pain]

Odd member choice for that joke in my opinion. If we are going for gamewise nutty I would go for General Pain (with a bonus for his prosthetic limbs) or Major Po. But at least you didn't say it about Law. That might have ended almost 200 years of peace between our two countries.

I'm laughing out loud....at work,.,,,,,behave people......stop writing too witty remarks....seriosly...continue....

[natehale1971]

I have a question on Sandbags... I saw a sandbag that was HUGE... it was about the size of a body bag (just a little wider) and looked like it could have a twin bed mattress stuffed in it. but it was made out of that weave of tough cloth-plastic... I keep thinking of the kinds of things those HUGE sandbags could be used for.. Such as stuffing them with straw or featers or cotton to be used as mattresses, or using them to bury your dead. North Africa they burried US servicemembers in cotton bags.

[General Pain]

Odd member choice for that joke in my opinion. If we are going for gamewise nutty I would go for General Pain (with a bonus for his prosthetic limbs) or Major Po. But at least you didn't say it about Law. That might have ended almost 200 years of peace between our two countries.

hehehe

Haven't heard from LAW in ages...is he allright?

btw: quote from GRAN TORINO : Walt Kowalski: I used to stack fucks likes you, five feet high in Korea, use ya for sand bags....

Excellent Movie btw...I recomend it.

[General Pain]

Yet another thread I have to hide from the FBI ;)

yeah those damn "Federal BOOB inspectors"

[headquarters]

Odd member choice for that joke in my opinion. If we are going for gamewise nutty I would go for General Pain or Major Po. But at least you didn't say it about Law. That might have ended almost 200 years of peace between our two countries.

LOL

:D


No use in using LAW for armour -better just pull the safety and fire him at the target .

PENETRATION : a ruck sack wont do squat against a 7,62 round ,might make it tumle and yaw and lessen pen a little that way , but the real purpose of putting something light ( like chicken wire) outside the hull is to alter the distance a shaped charge detonates from the armour plates .The inside of a heat round is cone shaped and has a metal sheet covering the inside - usually copper ( I am sure you all know , but I want to discuss) ,when the round impacts the metal sheet melts and projects a jet of super heated molten metal that burns through the armour and flies around inside the hull etc .

If the distance between the round and the armour is altered ( point of impact is not the actual plate but a little furter out or a little further in ( a little further out the most practical alternative ) , the jet of molten copper is not concentrated as it should and it looses some of its effect .An effective spaved armour would be tubes of rolled up chickenwire,maybe with spacers to keep it at a nice 10 -15 inch diameter.This should distort the point of impact sufficiently to avoid penetration on an APC hull from older type RPGS like LAW 72
I guess.......

[kato13]

Haven't heard from LAW in ages...is he allright?


I believe he is currently with his unit in Iraq. His absence while disappointing is expected.

[kato13]

I have a question on Sandbags... I saw a sandbag that was HUGE... it was about the size of a body bag (just a little wider) and looked like it could have a twin bed mattress stuffed in it. but it was made out of that weave of tough cloth-plastic... I keep thinking of the kinds of things those HUGE sandbags could be used for.. Such as stuffing them with straw or featers or cotton to be used as mattresses, or using them to bury your dead. North Africa they burried US servicemembers in cotton bags.

As far as materials they would most likely be High density polypropylene. While I have never seen such a bag (i think I have stats up to 15"x48") there actually is logic to making a bag so large it cannot be moved by hand when filled. It also might be useful at the base of a levee. More equipment onto the "to do" pile.

[Targan]

But wouldn't Targan squirm too much if you tied him to the outside?
Hmmm... was it something I said? :confused:

[kato13]

Hmmm... was it something I said? :confused:

I guess you have been the "nuttiest" since CDN's join date. Quite an accomplishment in this group ;)

edit. Oh your avatar thread was bumped recently. Now it is making a little more sense

[Caradhras]

For a boring 'on topic' gaming terms response, I would roll a random armour factor between 0 and that of a sandbag assuming the GM didnt know the contents of the individual rucksack to nominate a value.