M-134 (Was Anybody know this weapon?)

[kcdusk]

I just got pay tv, so future weapons was one of the first shows on.

It might have been a new episode, it might have been a replay. But it doesnt really matter.

Anyone have stats (paul?) for a Dillion gattling gun? I missed the actual model number it had. But i think Dillon was the Maker.

7.62mm, 3000rpm, helecopter mounted, looked cool shooting tracer and incidenary.

[kato13]

Should be the M134. Both heavy weapon books have stats as does Paul.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/machineguns/us_machineguns.htm

Search for "GE/Dillon Aero M-134 Minigun" on the page

[Targan]

I just got pay tv, so future weapons was one of the first shows on.
You can see all the Future Weapons episodes on YouTube.

[kcdusk]

You can see all the Future Weapons episodes on YouTube.

agh, thanks, never thought of that. I'm limping along on 1 gig of downloads a month though ...

[kato13]

agh, thanks, never thought of that. I'm limping along on 1 gig of downloads a month though ...

Ouch. But I feel honored by the fact that you use such a limited resource to spend time with us.

[kcdusk]

Ouch. But I feel honored by the fact that you use such a limited resource to spend time with us.

(shrugs). I use the 1 gig i have as best i can. I know its not much, i dont feel like a whole man ...

[pmulcahy11b]

Should be the M134. Both heavy weapon books have stats as does Paul.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/machineguns/us_machineguns.htm

Search for "GE/Dillon Aero M-134 Minigun" on the page

Damn! Beat me to it!

[pmulcahy11b]

agh, thanks, never thought of that. I'm limping along on 1 gig of downloads a month though ...

I have RoadRunner Turbo. Right now it's unmetered, but it's going to be metered eventually. Only customer outrage (and the ready availability of DSL and dish networks in this city) stopped Time Warner's plans a couple of months ago, and they "delayed the implementation of metering to study the issue." We'll be metered eventually.

[kato13]

Just making sure that everyone knows about the "Archive" (http://forum.juhlin.com/archive/index.php/f-3.html) version of the site. There is a also a link at the bottom. It is a very low bandwidth version which is nice in certain situations (like being on dialup or a pda).

[Legbreaker]

1 gig at home and sharing 10 gig with five others at work.
How jealous am I of those with unlimited downloads?

:(

[kcdusk]

I know the discussion has taken place many many times. So i guess i am rediscovering this. But the Dillon "6 barrells of goodness" mini-gun has a recoil of 0. Yes, it needs to be vehicle mounted. I guess vehicle mounted (recoil 0) is different to a "heavy tripod" (recoil 5, 6 or 7). But the M2HB has a recoil of 7 when on a heavy tripod. Seems like allot of recoil compared to 0. Even the .306 Browning from WWII has a recoil of 4 which is half that of the more modern M2HB. Is the M2HB really that bad or are the stats just out of whack?

Also, i forget the exact numbers from the future weapons show. But they were talking about how accurate the Dillon minigun is. And they showed footage of the unit in action firing at cars with tracers and its just a laser show and walking the fire onto target must be so easy. And then (this is my point) they said its so much more accurate that say a M240. I forget exact numbers but it was something like the M240 fired 500 rounds and hit 4 times. The Dillon should be 4 times as accurate because it fires 4 times the rate of bullets, but due to synergies of the high ROF its much more accurate and hit the target something like 30 times (so it was 8 times more accurate). The hit rates were much smaller than i would have thought. And would be less in "combat conditions" as well. So when i'm rolling 100 times for a 5 second burst i shouldnt expect many to hit. Even a 1 in 20 chance means i should hit 5 times. But since recoil is effectively 0 i would expect to have a much higher hit rate than 1 in 20. Again, part of the problem of this argument is "its a game and your trying to model something real world and theres always going to be a disconnect".

[Targan]

Sounds like bullsh*t to me. The accuracy of an M240 and an M134 would be quite similar in my opinion, assuming both are being fired under the same conditions (for instance they and being fired from some kind of fixed pintle mount). Any accuracy difference would be due to the operator. By that I mean that if you are on target with the M134 you will hit the target with more rounds in a second because more rounds are being fired before the weapon has time to drift off target. Also the M134 has more overall mass, and the mass of a weapon helps to tame its recoil.

If both weapons were being bench tested I would be willing to bet that the inherent accuracy differences would be minimal.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts are the M134 would likely be less accurate as you've got more mass moving about in it that a M240/MAG 58.
If however both were bolted down to something immovable, and you're taking recoil and movement out of the equation (and ignoring wind, humidity, etc), the weapon with the longer barrel is likely to be more accurate.
Weapon wear and tear is also likely to effect accuracy and as the M134 hasn't actually been produced in many years and is therefore likely to be much older....

[kato13]

Question about the M134. Does the spinning barrel cause any sort of gyroscope effect? I know it is only 500 rpm but I would think that might help accuracy.

[Legbreaker]

Hmm, good question!
My thoughts are that the diameter is a bit too small for such a slow RPM to have much of an effect.
More research required!

[Targan]

Weapon wear and tear is also likely to effect accuracy and as the M134 hasn't actually been produced in many years and is therefore likely to be much older....
Original M134s are old but I think the Dillon M134 is a newer, slightly improved and lightened version and as far as I know is currently in production.

Question about the M134. Does the spinning barrel cause any sort of gyroscope effect? I know it is only 500 rpm but I would think that might help accuracy.
Maybe but any benefit is likely to be counteracted by coriolis effect.

[Matt Wiser]

The weapon's in use: the USAF and Navy Combat Search-and-Rescue helos use 'em for suppressive fire when making rescues, and the Army's 160th Aviation Regiment also uses minis on their Blackhawks. When you're trying to make a pickup behind enemy lines and the bad guys are coming to (a) stop you, and (b) get as many potential POWs as possible, a minigun or two on a helo are mighty useful to have.

[Legbreaker]

The Australian army trialed an M134 mounted on an M113 in Vietnam. It was discarded as overkill - it was like ten M60s all firing at the same point...

As an aircraft weapon it's ideal. The movement of the aircraft and the generally longer ranges makes ordinary GPMGs rather inadequate while the higher volume of a gatling type, well, it's a bit harder to miss when you're pumping out several thousand rounds a minute....
Besides, as I understand it, aircraft weapons, at least helicopter door guns etc aren't exactly meant for pinpoint accuracy but more for supressing enemy by volume of fire.

[kcdusk]

To answer some questions, from what i heard in the show.

The Dillon 134 is brand new.

Re the spinning barrell, they said the new version improved accuracy (rather than degraded it).

Accuracy theory was they are both as accurate as one another, except since the 134 fires 4x as many bullets then everything being equal it should hit 4x as many times. But in practice, it hit something like 8 or 9x more often (see point above about spinning barrel and other improvements helping accuracy somehow).

[O'Borg]

A couple of mins Youtubing gets : Helicopter mounted M134 vs M240 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf9bCebm4aE)

[Legbreaker]

As the M134 is a heavier weapon, and MUST be fired from a decent mount (usually a vehicle of some type), it's no suprise that more rounds than otherwise expected hit the target.

Also, the rapid rate of fire is obviously going to have an impact with more rounds leaving the weapon before recoil becomes a factor.

Actual accuracy of the individual barrels with single shots on the other hand is something else entirely.

[Darksheer]

Is the M2HB really that bad or are the stats just out of whack?
.

the M2 kicks like a mule on the tripod we have had to use sandbags on the legs heck one guy got in trouble for using tent pegs to try and lock the gun down not much really works
on a vehicle its a totally different story it shakes a little but its nothing to compensate for that and you just walk your rounds on to the target and let it have it

[pmulcahy11b]

Sounds like bullsh*t to me. The accuracy of an M240 and an M134 would be quite similar in my opinion, assuming both are being fired under the same conditions (for instance they and being fired from some kind of fixed pintle mount). Any accuracy difference would be due to the operator. By that I mean that if you are on target with the M134 you will hit the target with more rounds in a second because more rounds are being fired before the weapon has time to drift off target. Also the M134 has more overall mass, and the mass of a weapon helps to tame its recoil.

If both weapons were being bench tested I would be willing to bet that the inherent accuracy differences would be minimal.

There's a very old lesson MS I (freshman) ROTC cadets are taught: the "fuzzy-wuzzy fallacy." (No, I don't remember why the name.) You'd think that if you threw twice the troops at a target, you have twice the combat power, if you double the volume of fire, you double the firepower, etc. Doesn't work out that way. In general, if you double the troops, volume of firepower, explosives, etc, you have the square root that number of times of firepower --twice the troops = sqrt2 times the combat power, three times the troops, sqrt3 the combat power, etc. it's a rapidly-decaying average. So if your M-134 is putting out four times the volume of fire, you only get twice the firepower.

And right now, my cheeseburger tastes like Flonase -- damn, I hate that!

[Legbreaker]

I suppose it's got something to do with how that power is applied.
A high rate of fire from one barrel/weapon for example can only be applied to one location at a time. Even if it's firing off a ten thousand rounds a minute, there's not exactly a large increase in useful firepower.

Now firing off that same ten thousand rounds from twenty individual machineguns spread out across the battlefield IS going to have a HUGE impact. It also allows the commander many, many more options than with just one weapon - they can move around and take advantage of terrain, enemy disposition, etc.

Same concept applies to adding extra soliders, even if armed with bolt action rifles. After all, it only takes one bullet to remove the average enemy (or friendly for that matter) soldier from the fight, and with say one thousand riflemen firing ten rounds a minute you're able to cover and dominate a VERY large area.

That said, I still like my M60....

[pmulcahy11b]

That said, I still like my M60....

I've said that so many time to the youngn's here. For a relatively short soldier like me (in the Army, 5'8" and 145 pounds or so), it was perfectly sized.

[Legbreaker]

I was the same weight but had about an inch extra height on you.
Amazing how much a small person can carry - 10.43kg M60, 600 belted 7.62 (approx 18kg) plus all the extras commonly issued and required to be carried in your webbing (at least another 10kg, but usually MUCH more).
And then as I rarely had a No2, I had the spare barrel to haul as well. Once they even threw the 77 set at me in addition to all that! ("combat" load was almost more than my own bodyweight!)

Still, a properly maintained M60 is a thing of beauty and I wouldn't trade one for anything (well maybe a couple of porters to carry all the extra gear!)