I think most civilian vehicles would survive, the car body itself can act as a Faraday shield, unless you have a Corvette or something. I work in auto parts and most parts are designed to work in a less than optimum environment with heat, cold bumpy roads and so on. I think I read a link somewhere that the government did test EMP against cars made from 1986 to 2002 or so and all or most survived, a couple quit running but they started up again I think. I know Ford did an EMP study in 1967 where cars are not affected too much but most car electronics then were less complex than today's.

Chuck M.

Very true and very possible indeed (I always forget about that faraday thing). However, I think one of us said that infrastructures were not shielded or protected at all. As a result, you'll quickly have to face a shortage in electronic spare parts. With no proper care, I wouldn't expect the most modern car to survive long, nevertheless. In addition, with no diagnosis computers most mechanics might have trouble fixing them.

One other factor to consider about shielding: do underground parking lots and highway tunnels provide protection? I know they are quite effective in killing off radio broadcasts and mobile phone transmissions. Anybody have any ideas?

No clue but that might also be true for old stone buildings. My house is quite good at shielding these stuffs too. However, from a wild guess I would think that it would depend on intensity.

I imagine that reinforced concrete (ie concrete with steel rods or mesh through it to strengthen it) would provide more protection against EMP than normal concrete or rock because it might act as a kind of basic Faraday cage. I could be wrong on this though.

Since mountains cause an EMP shadows I would have to assume that some amount of concrete or earth would offer protection.

EMP also causes a problem with reradiation where a long piece of metal will absorb and retransmit. Phone lines might radiate energy within a basement for example. However since such radiation is generated in all directions the range is quite short (a few feet).

Then, an old medieval type building might even offer more protection than a non purposedly made concrete building (still I have no clue on this but if anyone has, I'll be glad to hear from it).

I've been deep in research on the effects of EMP for most of the day and come to several conclusions based on the information I've read. Sources include papers written for the US military, scientific studies, and apparently "authoritive" books on the subject such as The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, by Glasstone and Dolan.

Firstly, a car IS likely to be effected by EMP. The body will not act as a "Faraday cage" or at least not to any significant amount. Rubber tyres will do absolutely nothing to offset the effects of EMP, otherwise planes would also be exempt.

Sheilding in all cases includes earthing - direct contact to the earth using a conductor. Rubber tyres actually prevent this occuring. I'm not sure how this is achieved with aircraft but I'll continue to investigate.

Solid metal plates are the material of choice when attempting to shield anything although burying cables, etc is advised (with metal sheeting laid over the top). Therefore, it's likely underground garages, caves, etc will have some impact on EMP.

Just because it doesn't state in the various versions of history that high altitude bursts occured, doesn't mean they didn't happen. It does state though that satellites in orbit were targeted and destroyed. Not knowing anything about ASAT weaponry, I would have to say it's at least possible low yield nukes were responsible for a few dead spy satellites. In fact EMP might be especially devastating to them but as they're shielded against cosmic radiation, etc, who knows?

And now for some good news. Although vehicles such as cars, trucks, wheeled AFVs, aircraft, even ships would be effected, tanks and other tracked AFVs are likely to suffer only minimal EMP effects. This is mainly because the armour itself acts as shielding AND most importantly, the metal tracks mean the vehicle is constantly grounded!

Naturally many of these vehicles might still fall victim, especially if radio antenna are still raised, hatches open, etc, or they're just too close to the source of the EMP.

Interesiting Leg. :)

Cars and trucks knocked out by EMP
 

I have been doing research as well. What I came up with is that it's basically a crap shoot, when it comes to whether cars and trucks would not be knocked out by EMP. According to tests done at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and at the US Military's EMP simulators, some cars have proven to be resistant to EMP, while other have not. The age, make, and car model, have nothing to do with whether cars and trucks can be knocked out or can not knocked out by EMP; it has to do with the position of the car’s electronic components. If the electronic components are position in a certain way, the body of the car will almost act as a Faraday Box and protect the internal electronic components. Also they found out during these tests; that in some of the cars that failed to survive the EMP pulse, only the electronic ignition was damaged, and therefore those could be used once the electronic ignition was bypassed.:cool:

Sites
 

Here are some sites about EMP

http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Al...magnetic_Pulse

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

Euh? I might be wrong but from what I know, older cars have no electronics and, as a result, wouldn't be knocked out by EMP. Therefore, age has to do with it.

I don't know if the electrical system can be destroyed as well but replacing a bunch of electrical wires will not be that much of a problem. Even, finding or making a battery is faisable.

Electrical systems are also effected.

Older systems are more "robust" I suppose is the best description, simply because the damaged parts can be replaced much easier than modern wiring and electronics.

Finding parts to do it on the other hand.....

REALLY old electronic systems that use vacuum tubes are incredibly resistant to EMP apparently. Not so easy to replace though.

Apparently one of the reasons the USSR kept using vacuum tube tech for aircraft & radios well past the time they could make transistors

But they're still effected according to what I was reading yesterday. They're down the order a bit, but they're still effected.

ANYTHING with an electrical current is effected. Experiments have been conducted on animals to see what the results are on the nervous system because of that fact. Good news is it appeared there's little to no measurable impact.

From a link I found in the morrow project yahoo group.

(emphases added)

From Report of the Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack (7MB). PDF page 131 numbered page 115

In general they feel that blown traffic systems and lack of electricity for gas pumps will lead to greater degradation of the transportation system than disabled vehicles.

Ah, good old political spin in action again it appears....

Firstly, I'd be interested in how they worked up to their settings - was it in one sudden pulse, or did they just turn the dial slowly until they achieved the desired level?

As the damage is actually inflicted by the SUDDEN increase in electrical activity, a slow increase isn't likely to have anywhere near the same effect.

Secondly, they only tested up to approximately 50,000 V/m. That's NOTHING when you consider,
So, bearing that information in mind, information generated from the both NATO and US DoD documents, I'd say the Commissions report might be just slightly tinged with political expediancy....

If you read the report it is very much a chicken little report (the sky is falling). It just seems that cars are one of the more hardy parts of the infrastructure.

From the Executive summary

http://www.empcommission.org/docs/empc_exec_rpt.pdf



More quotes

I would have to assume the peak fields would not reach the surface over a large area. Unless this commission feels they can get away with testing 1/20 of what will actually hit the surface and not get called on it. Also remember that when something radiates in 3 dimensions energy drops rapidly for every doubling of distance.

Their tests show computers having problems at 3kV/m and Damaged at 8-16 kV/m. Locomotives start have disruptive problems around 20 kV/m. Cars and to a lesser extent trucks just seem more robust under similar testing circumstances.

So I guess everyone is saying that the distructive effects of EMP wouldn't be as bad as the T2K universe has presented. That actually gives me alot more really good ideas on how to improve the way I can set things up for the future campaigns I want to create.

The fact that small scale personal electronics wouldn't be as effected by an EMP burst would actually improve some of the 'luxuries' that the characters would have to fall back upon to help give them a little bit of comfort.

But it would also mean that all sides in the war would have put alot of use of their anti-satellite weapons arsenals into use to knock out any and all satellites they can. But at the same time, it would also put a lot of effort to put replacements either in orbit or high altitude (like the 'weather ballons' that had been used before the U2 spy planes where used).

I tend to take official committee type reports with a grain of salt. They're usually commissioned by a politician (or group of them) with an agenda with the results often skewed to fit.

Going back to the actual research documents, those written up by the scientists who actually did the tests, tends, at least in my opinion, to give a truer indication of the possible effects.

Everything I've been able to find from the horses mouth so to speak, says everything is going to be effected, ESPECIALLY more modern, hi tech electronics. Not having read the committee's report (I'll get to it though once I've some time), I still expect based on the excerpts posted thus far, that the findings are based on flawed research.

Perhaps those responsible for the report have an interest in the car industry? Perhaps having the majority of cars off the road will assist them in some way (maybe they've got shares in one of the major manufacturers for example).
Perhaps they've got a far more immediate interest in improving the infrastructure (shares in traffic light manufacturing companies)? Who really knows?

Regardless, research has shown that as a rule of thumb, the more modern a device, the more hi tech, light weight and delicate electronics (and electricals) involved, the more vulnerable it is. Therefore, don't expect your I-pod to work but your old 1980's walkman might....

I agree with Legbreaker's analysis.

Well I hope everyone interested reads the report. They are not very optimistic on many things. My general thought about these type of reports is that are more likely to overstate dangers as part of a "Cover Your Ass" mentality. In this report cars and trucks seem to be the exception, which matches anecdotal data I have heard about for years.

aawww..
 

:) come on guys ! How else am I going to beat my party back into the stoneage and make their enviroment a barbarious savage mad maxian world were hair dressing products is the scarce and precious commodity all fight over ??!


But seriously , from your comments - I sense some distrust to official views - and that is a bit disturbing consideringthe serious matter . What I am tryingto say is that it is sad that we have to have doubts about the truth in goverment findings like these.

But I agree in your statements of doubt to some extent .

I guess we deont need EMP to shut down vehicular travel - in a limited time there will be no gas and voila .All cars will be standing were they ran out more or less.And for the hoarders - gas is only stabile for 12- 24 months , maybe double with special additives .(Its "pep" dissipates over time )

Also lack of spareparts and malfunctions other than EMP would render many modern cars useless in a short time.

But I " like" the EMP catastrophy in gaming terms - and take the alternative view that a sudden sharp emp will fry most unshielded circuts within a certain range . ( One explanation to all the tubes in Soviet electronics - they stood up better to EMPs )

I pretty much agree with that, don't forget, automobile electronics are made to stand up to rugged conditions, perhaps because of that, they are not as prone to EMP as most think although that could be a side effect. Most diodes and transistors in automobiles are huge things as well. Plus unless you have a Corvette, the car body is like a Faraday cage. I work in auto parts and see this stuff all the time.

As to weird stuff happening like gauges going crazy or idiot lights blinking, well, thati s possible too, then again, I remember my father bought a 1972 Chevy Bel-Air and the fuel gauge would read empty to full and back again, the temperature light would stay on and so on. We had a few bad switches, I remember Mom keeping track of fuel with the odometer and we just kept driving with out fingers crossed in the hope we won't overheat.

Another exception was a defect, Ford has some problems with heat shutting down the ignition systems in their 1990 Lincoln Town Cars. I was driving one from Moon Township near the Airport to North Huntington PA for a rental company I worked for. It was Sunday, after hours, everyone went home except me. Well, I made it through the Fort Pitt tunnel and the Lincoln died on me as I was on the Fort Pitt Bridge. The dashboard lit up like a Christmas tree and I had to coast to an emergency pullover place as I turned to I-376 to the Parkway East after getting off the Fort Pitt Bridge. I barely made it. I tried to restart the thing, no go. I tried several times, nothing. No one was coming by, I was near downtown Pittsburgh but it seem so deserted. No police came by or anyone. I sat there for 15 minutes. I decided to either hoof it, even if I had to walk on the highway or to restart again. Well, I tried the car, it restarted no problems and I made it to North Huntington no problem. I picked up the vehicle I was supposed to and made it home.

Yeah, even if you can drive around after the Apocalypse, life will still be Hell unless you can find a way to pup fuel out with a generator/battery powered system or a manual system along with somehow forming your own fuel in the long run. Even then, it will be Hell until you get some sort of power gird going.

ARGH!

Once again a car body DOES NOT ACT AS A FARADAY CAGE!
See message #38 above for why. Also http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...hlight=faraday

The faults you've refered to are just that - faults. They might be reasonable symptoms of a dodgy electrical component or two, but they've got next to nothing to do with EMP.

I respect your opinions and automotive knowledge, but please, please, PLEASE read the relevant information that's been refered to in several posts.

From what I understand, a Faraday cage does not have to be grounded to work so I still contend that a car's body can act as one.

While grounding may not be entirely necessary in some cases (still researching that), any openings will negate any protection provided by the vehicles body - ie windows are going to be a BIG problem.
Also, the wiring thoughout the vehicle acts as an antenna, channeling the EMP from exposed areas to more critical, and normally shielded, areas concentrating the pulse and causing damage.

I've found at least one example of where EMP was so strong in wiring that it welded them together!