I've met women in the Army who could cut it as infantrymen. Not many -- but they are there. IRL, they'd be very rare, but in T2K, they'd be more common, due to simple shortages in manpower.

Women, by and large, can't match men in the strength department. In the constitution department, they can often beat men, and in the area of agility, particularly, they can usually beat men, which is why the US is realizing that women make good combat pilots. Intelligence and Education, of course, are not gender-specific, except for Education in some parts of the world.

Charisma is a special case. I knew a lot of men, both in the civilian and military workplace, who simply had no respect for women. It's a cultural deficiency that's out of date, but still around, especially in Islamic cultures.

IRL, you'd make the best out of female and male attributes -- for example, men make the best grunts, but some of the deadliest Soviet snipers in World War 2 were women. One of Nazi Germany's best pilots was female. And doing stuff like intel is sheer mind work. Delta has the funny platoon, which has women. Interrogation -- well, women can have a surprising effect on prisoners (and I don't mean in a sexual sense or something like that) -- particularly male prisoners, And here and there, you'll just find individuals that surprise you -- one of the toughest infantryman I ever met was a little guy, about 5'4" and 120 pounds, wearing the tentpeg glasses and looking for all the world like some computer geek that had no business in the Army period.

And of course, the allowing of females in combat arms in T2K was primarily to attract female players -- you get someone who wants to play a female Delta operator and rolls a character that can do it, why not? It would make for an interesting character story.

In a way, we already have women who have acted as de facto grunts: female MPs, the Lioness teams in Iraq and A-Stan, and the women who are TDY'd to infantry units to search local women-one of the latter (a medic in the 82nd Airborne) won a Silver Star in A-Stan for going after some wounded guys whose Hummer ran over an IED, all the while being under fire, and in between treating the injured, returning it. The Houston Chronicle article (she was from a town NE of Houston IIRC) mentioned that some in the unit she was attached to wanted her to get something bigger than a Silver Star, but Division declined. Trouble was, that medic got pulled from the TDY assignment and back in the aid station when all the publicity broke. Then there was KY NG Sgt. Leann Hester and the Raven 42 incident. She was the first woman to get a Silver Star since an Army Nurse at Anzio won one in WW II.

Paul, isn't one of the Russian women you refer to Ludmilla Pavalchenko? She had 303 confirmed kills before being pulled from combat duty on Stalin's orders and sent on good-will visits to Britain, Canada, and the U.S. When she got back, she was commissioned as an officer and given a free hand to set up a sniper school and to be the OINC. That's also the Soviet system: there were captains and majors galore, but she was a Senior Lt., and since there was this order from Uncle Joe appointing her OINC of the school, guess who those guys had to click their heels to?

The Australian defence minister has today announced that all remaining gender-based restrictions on women serving in front-line military roles has been lifted; women will be phased into such roles over the next 5 years (assuming, I presume, they reach the required standards although I don't know whether existing standards will be modified to help them).

Politically that might now be possible, but I just can't see too many women being assigned to combat roles. It'll be a good generation or so before there's more than the odd token woman in any one battalion.
The testosterone laden, male dominated combat arms will need a whole new mindset before it occurs.

Plus you have to take into account that the Australian Defence Minister did NOT make such a move to advance women's rights or any other philanthropic reason.
He did it to advance his own political career - he and the government he is part of still believe it's wrong for two lesbians to marry so he really ain't that concerned about advancing the cause of women.

And of course those recent sexual "misdemeanours" at ADFA didn't have any impact at all did they....? :rolleyes:
For those who don't know, there was one case a couple of months ago of two cadet officers having sex. The male set up his laptop to webcast the event to his classmates a few rooms away. Once she found out and made a complaint, the military tried to bury it. She ended up going to the media and the waves went all the way to the top (in both political and military circles).

More recently a foreign officer cadet (can't recall where from) was caught after setting up a camera in an air vent above a female shower. It's still going through the legal system, but he was immediately removed from training and I'd be VERY surprised if he doesn't find himself kicked out of the country, followed shortly after by a dishonourable discharge from his own military.

They're shits and should be shown the door after a HEAVY court-martial (from your account, possibly one of them was) and much media attention to drag their names through the dirt.

Thanks; I am always forgetting her name.

I knew about the female medal winners, and women used to search female captives, but the Lioness Teams is new info to me...I sense another Google search coming...

Deadlier than the male
 

Had a close female friend who spent time in Intelligence School back in the 80s: she said that some of the pretty, cute, sweet-thang type of fellow female interrogator-trainees were the most vicious, ruthless, remorseless, heartless, soulless, evil-doing bitches (her own words) in the universe. Be afraid.

Brad Thor's "Athena Project" is a good read... it's about an extremely topsecret fourth squadron of delta force that is made up of all female operations teams. The storyline in the first book of the series ("The Athena Project" deals with things dealing with matter transporters that the Nazi's had been doing getting into the hands of bad guys) shows the kinds of jobs women in special ops are perfect to carry out, and gives a long list of all the reasons for such team using all women, and touches on some of the downsides as well. If i could loan it out on knidle i'd be willing to loan it so everyone could get a chance to read it.

My friend Gladys Vazquez was doing AIT there at about the same time. She was an Intelligence Analyst with a Linguist secondary (she's like my mother, she picks up languages at the drop of a hat).

As an aside, did you know that the military teaches some interrogators an entirely artificial language (not Esperanto) so they can talk to each other openly while questioning someone, but the detainee has no idea of what they're saying? Gladys told me it's a strange, alien-sounding language and speaking it actually contributes to the fear of detainees because it sounds so weird. You need a special security clearance to learn it and you can't even use it outside of certain interrogations (she wasn't allowed to speak it to me so I could hear it).

Paul, check the FETs (Female Engagement Teams). That's what the Lioness Teams are called now. And JSOC (according to Strategypage) has gotten in on this-they were borrowing women from other units to handle interactions with local females-and those units didn't like that because they needed some women for the same purpose. JSOC is recruiting women for their FETs-and the training course is similar to SOF-lots of physical training, shooting, tactical training, along with the necessary work on local customs, religion, mannerisms, etc. The attrition rate is about 50%, according to the strategypage article.

I just saw it over at Amazon.com. It definitely looks....interesting. Funny thing, I had a similar idea for a story I'm writing, except that the women each have different psionic talents in addition to their training that they use to deal with, how shall we say, unusual threats... :D

As you can guess my interests and writing tend to veer a bit more toward the weird.

I might check it out though. How many books are there about Athena Project, and do you have to read any of Thor's other novels to understand what's going on?

Interesting. Always take what you read with a grain of salt, but still, if it were true (or partly true), it would certainly make sense.

How long has the rumor been going around about Delta's "funny platoon", and has any other rumors ever come out of that??

The book "The Athena Project" is the first in a spin-off series of books form the Harvarath Project (a techno thriller series of books about ex-US Navy SEAL Scot Harvath). The concept of the 'Athena Project' (ie all female delta force team) was introduced in the book "Foreign Influence"

The books are really good. I have bought all of them on my kindle, and considering how tight money is for me... that's saying alot. :)

Brad Thor's books are as follows...
The Lions of Lucerne (2002) - ISBN 0-7434-3673-3
Path of the Assassin (2003) - ISBN 0-7434-3675-X
State of the Union (2004) - ISBN 0743436776
Blowback (2005) - ISBN 0-7432-7115-7
Takedown (2006) - ISBN 0-7432-7118-1
The First Commandment (2007) - ISBN 1-4165-4379-1
The Last Patriot (2008) - ISBN 1-4165-4383-X
The Apostle (2009) - ISBN 1-4165-8657-1
Foreign Influence (2010) - ISBN 1-4165-8659-8
The Athena Project (2010) - ISBN 1-4391-9295-2
Full Black (2011) - ISBN 1-4165-8661-X


As for the 'Funny Platoon'... it's been something that has been rummored going all the way back to the creation of Delta Force itself.

Female Engagement Teams... just a few of the news stories on them.

Delta's Funny Platoon has been around since the late '80s-early '90s, if Greg Walker (who first broke the existence of Delta's women in his book In The Hurricane's Eye) is correct. Given his ties to SOF, and having corresponded with him in the past about other issues, I'd say he's right.

Well Delta Force is paterned after the SAS and they were using women as part of their intelligence gathering teams in Northern ireland since the beginning of that conflict. I wouldn't be suprised if Delta Force started recruiting women imediatly after Desert One.

This is the group for our game that we were oputting together...

Athena Team Eight:
MSG Mackenzie Alexandria 'Mac' Cahill (Karen McDougall), Athena Team Eight NCOiC (callsign: 'Hard Body'): adult Caucasian female Charismatic 3/Leadership 6/Spec Ops 1 (10th level).

SFC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname> (Linda O'Neill), Team Eight 2iC/Team Tech Specialist (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult Eurasian female Smart 3/Specialist 6/Spec Ops 1 (10th level).

SSG <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname> (Hillary Fisher), Athena Team Eight Medical Specialist (callsign: 'Southern Belle'): adult Caucasian female Dedicated 3/Combat Medic 4/Spec Ops 3 (10th level).

SGT Esmeralda Francesca Menendez (Tasha Nicole), Athena Team Eight Explosives Specialist (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult Hispanic female Fast 3/Recon 4/Spec Ops 3 (10th level).

SGT Jacquelyn Ellen 'Jackie' Wheeler (Beth Williams), Athena Team Eight Weapons Specialist (callsign: 'Farm Girl'): adult Caucasian female Dedicated 3/Intelligence 5/Spec Ops 2 (10th level).

SGT <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname> (Hope Dworaczyk), Athena Team Eight Marksman (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult Caucasian female Fast 3/Marksman 5/Spec Ops 2 (10th level).

SGT <D> <D> '<nickname>' <D> (Kia Drayton), Athena Team Eight <d> (callsign: 'Double-D'): adult African-American female <> (10th level).

---

Athena Team Four: Athena Team Four is a dedicated sniper-scout team that has the ability to split apart into two individual three-person sniper elements. Athena Team Four is normally assigned to provide overwatch support for the direct action teams, and has normally found itself assigned to provide support Athena Team Eight due to the fact that MSG <name> and MSG Mackenzie Cahill work well together.



MSG <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team Four NCOiC (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Charismatic 3/Leadership 6/Special Ops 1 (10th level). spotter
(carries a Colt M4A1 5.56mm carbine).

SSG <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team Tech Specialist (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Fast 3/Recon 4/Special Ops 3 (10th level). flanker
(carries a Colt M4A1 5.56mm carbine)

SGT <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team Scout Observer (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Fast 3/Recon 4/Special Ops 3 (10th level). designated marksman
(carries a Colt M16 Designated Marskman 5.56mm semiautomatic marksman rifle).

SFC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team 2iC/Spotter & Forward Observer (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Fast 3/Recon 4/Special Ops 3 (10th level).
(carries a Colt M4A1 5.56mm carbine).

SSG <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team Sniper Scout (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Fast 3/Recon 4/Sniper 2/Spec Ops 1 (10th level).
(carries a Knight Armaments M110 Semiautomatic Sniper System 7.62mm semiautomatic sniper rifle).

SGT <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, Athena Team Flanker Scout (callsign: '<callsign>'): adult <> female Fast 3/Recon 4/Special Ops 3 (10th level).
(carries a Colt M4A1 5.56mm carbine).



1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (1st SFOD-D)/Combat Applications Group (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)

Operational Squadron
-Recon/Sniper Troop
-Direct Action/Assault Troop
-Direct Action/Assault Troop

Support Squadron (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
Signal Squadron (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
Operational Support Troop 'Funny Platoon' (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
Aviation Squadron/Platoon (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
Operational Research Section (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
Medical Detachment (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)

A Squadron (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
-Recon/Sniper Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team One (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Four (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Seven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Ten (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Thirteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 1 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Two (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)--
--Team Five (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eight (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eleven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fourteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 2 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Three (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Six (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Nine (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Twelve (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fifteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)

B Squadron (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
-Recon/Sniper Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team One (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Four (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Seven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Ten (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Thirteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 1 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Two (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Five (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eight (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eleven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fourteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 2 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Three (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Six (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Nine (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Twelve (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fifteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)

C Squadron (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
-Recon/Sniper Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team One (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Four (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Seven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Ten (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Thirteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 1 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Two (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Five (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eight (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)
--Team Eleven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)
--Team Fourteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)
-No. 2 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Three (CPT <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Six (CW3 <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Nine (CSM <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)
--Team Twelve (1SG <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)
--Team Fifteen (SGM <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, NCOiC)

D Squadron aka 'the Athena Project' (LTC <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
-Recon/Sniper Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team One (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Four (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Seven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Ten (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Thirteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 1 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Two (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Five (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Eight (MSG Mackenzie Alexandria 'Mack' Cahill, NCOiC)
--Team Eleven (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fourteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
-No. 2 Direct Action/Assault Troop (MAJ <first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>)
--Team Three (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Six (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Nine (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Twelve (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)
--Team Fifteen (<first name> <middle name> '<nickname>' <surname>, OiC)

Just found this over on Military.Com

Female Special Operators Now in Combat
June 29, 2011
Military.com|by Christian Lowe

Army Special Operations Command has deployed its first teams of female Soldiers assigned to commando units in Afghanistan, and military officials are assessing their initial performance in theater as "off the charts."

In a controversial move early this year, the Army created a new avenue for women to serve with front-line combat units in some of the most specialized and covert missions. The so-called "Cultural Support Teams" are attached to Special Forces and Ranger units to interface with the female population to gain vital intelligence and provide social outreach.

"When I send an [SF team] in to follow up on a Taliban hit … wouldn't it be nice to have access to about 50 percent of that target population -- the women?" said Maj. Gen. Bennet Sacolick, commander of the Army Special Warfare Center and School, which runs the CST program.

"And now we're doing that with huge success," Sacolick said. "They are in Afghanistan right now and the reviews are off the charts. They're doing great."


So far, nearly 30 of the female CST Soldiers are deployed to the war zone, working in villages and towns that the commandos have cleared.

"They're supposed to be used on secure target areas," Sacolick said. "I don't want them fighting their way to a target."

While the Army has assigned women to front-line units in the past during searches of female civilians and detainees, the move by USASOC formalizes what some advocates have been hoping for in terms of opening up combat arms units to women.

The Soldiers assigned to the Cultural Support Teams aren't required to endure all the training of a Ranger or SF trooper, but they do have to learn advanced weapons handling and even fast-roping. Through three separate nine-day assessments so far, the Special Warfare Center and School has about a 50 percent attrition rate, officials say. Those who make it go through a six-week training course that teaches the Soldiers regional culture, intelligence gathering and small-unit combat tactics, officials say.

"I place less emphasis on the immediate physical standards," Sacolick said. "What I don't compromise on is intellect. I'm looking for smart kids."

Though USASOC will consider female Soldiers -- NCOs and junior officers -- from any MOS, they are especially interested in those from healthcare career fields, including nurse midwife (66G8D), as well as military police and military intelligence, according to the perquisites and requirements detailed on the Army Special Operations Command website.

The Special Warfare Center plans to run its next assessment for CST members in early September, officials say.

© Copyright 2011 Military.com. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Huh. There's some serious hearts and minds stuff there. Reduce infant mortality and you just made contacts for life out of the mothers.

- C.

yup. exactly...

One of the things I said until I was told to stop talking was that if we committed to keeping the lights on, the water clean, the markets safe, and the schools open, we'd own the mothers of Iraq. Once we owned the mothers, we'd own the fathers. Once we owned the fathers, we'd have access to everything the local businessmen knew about comings and goings of people who didn't belong in the neighborhood. Once we knew what was happening in the neighborhood, we could guarantee security and effectively own the place. It's no coincidence that the enemy consistently attacked markets full of women and children.

perhaps unintentionally, we may be affecting the mindset of the next generation of Afghans to what is and is not permitted for women. Young girls and boys seeing the following: women in uniform, sometimes armed, giving orders to and taking orders from men, and bringing very good things to improve their current living standard.

This could act as a mental seed for future growth when comparing how Taliban/radical Islam treatment and attitude toward women has benefited (?:rolleyes:) their society.

I just finished Athena Project...pretty decent read. My nitpicks? I'd wish there'd been a bit more in-depth characterization, especially with how they dealt with the lives they led on a regular basis. Of course, just more details in general with the other characters, the settings, etc. would have been really nice, but hey, that's just me. :p

But overall, not bad. The author does a pretty decent job of summing up why these female operators would actually excel at some of the jobs they handle, and why their immense attractiveness turns out to be quite an advantage in some cases. Let's face it...in most countries and in general, men tend to underestimate women and typically don't see them as a threat. Combine that with the fact that most men will typically go ga-ga, drool, want to show off and do stupid things around a gorgeous woman, and it's all a matter of time before that exotic, nearly 6 foot stunner who's wearing a short revealing evening dress and wowing all the boys suddenly pulls out a suppressed Glock 19 and puts two rounds in your chest, another in your head, and you're dead. :firing:

The subplot with the Nazi wunderwaffe experiments and Quantum theory was rather interesting as well...