well..
 

If we want to police we got to do it right ."Standing tall" on the side of shipping companies to "keep insurance expenses from spilling over on the consumer" doesnt sit well with me .It would be better to curtail their profits by demanding different routes and getting to work on Somalia in new ways politically .

Besides - any political statement and these guys would be on a terrorist list in seconds.

Not saying that piracy is ok ,or that self defence is wrong - but alot of the kill em all and let God sort em out attitudes seems not to take into account the reasons for the situation .Reasons that could give the solution .

As for arming the crews - I dont think the crews are to keen on fighting of an armed assault to save the owners a suitcase of dollars - their pay isnt actually that great .

Also te vast majority of hostages held captive are treated well by the pirates .

Redirecting the shipping lanes (20 000 ship a year -thats around 60 a day not counting fishermen,and other craft) to a guarded zone might be a more viable solution .

Anyways -there are pirate attacks on shipping going to the US as well .I cant see the port authorities in New York whooping with joy over the multitude of missile launchers and HMGs arriving on mounts on the hundreds of ships going through there each week.

In the end -who is to say they havent tried to expose the pillaging of their coast? Some people dying in Somalia or loosing their liveley hood isnt going to get a lot of press-and taking hostages for political reasons as a Somali would probably mean that you wouldnt have to make many plans for next summer -if you know what I mean .

In any case -as previously said - some pirates are of course the scum of the seas and need to rest at 100 fathoms .

But shooting all the bad guys just creates a vacant position at hiring hall -GMwise, and some one new will take the bait .Ending the recruiting is the key .

It could be done by killing everyone .But I guess then the Somalis would kind of be in the right ? ( Even though if they are dead and cant argue the case).

The Italian mafia doesnt dump its own waste - it dumps waste for big business companies that we probably see tv ads for every now and then .They do the necessary dirty work to keep the numbers suitably black .

I would guess that running an illegal dumping operation in Somalia ( good merc mission) you would tool up before going in .About pirates going after them -The credit rating and will to pay up might not be all that good in the cosa nostra or n`drangheti compared to a major shipping firm ..

The pirates are not the heros here -of course .But pulling the trigger isnt clearly black and white .

Right. And the naval policing isn't black and white either.

This is how useless the situation is...

A Canadian warship helped chase down pirates off Somalia who had tried to attack a Norwegian tanker.

The HMCS Winnipeg, along with a British vessel also conducting NATO patrols of the pirate-infested zone, foiled the attack.

The frigate pursued the pirate ship for seven hours after the British vessel scared it away from the 80,000-ton tanker on Saturday.

The pirates were finally caught early Sunday after throwing their weapons overboard, NATO officials said. After being questioned, they were released because they were outside Canada's jurisdiction and NATO has no mandate to make arrests.

--- The pirates didn't attack a Canadian vessel nor a British one. So they had to let the pirates go. This wasn't the first time this same situation happened.

yep
 

I remember the press that got up here.I honestly think that the authorities are glad we didnt end up with a piracy trial in Norway -but then again whats the point in apprehending them if they cant be made to stand trial ?

there needs to be a work over of the international sea laws pertaining to piracy .The rules today seem to be geared towards the age of sail rather than our current situation .

First of all, I would think its good for the public opinion (not that bad even if it's the least important of all point).

Second, it disrupt some of the pirates operation and that is a good point for international shipping. The bad point is that this costing us a fair amount of money. Less than letting things as they are or we would have changed route.

Third, pirates are getting killed in the process. May be not much but at least some and that can make some things a little further. I'm no specialist of internal law at sea but from what I understand: they can be prosecuted but we can't be prosecuted as well. (Tell me if I'm wrong).

Last, when pirates are caught on board of a ship they can be prosecuted under the laws ruling that ship flag. (again I'm not sure but I think that how it's working).

It might interest you
 

Here are the articles of the high sea regulation concerning piracy. As I wasn't sure of what I was saying I went to check on that. It's a bit complicated but it puts up some lights. Article 106 is especially interesting. As a result, what I said in my previous post must be entirely false.:p

Article100

Duty to cooperate in the repression of piracy

All States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State.

Article101

Definition of piracy

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

Article102

Piracy by a warship, government ship or government aircraft

whose crew has mutinied

The acts of piracy, as defined in article 101, committed by a warship, government ship or government aircraft whose crew has mutinied and taken control of the ship or aircraft are assimilated to acts committed by a private ship or aircraft.

Article103

Definition of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft is considered a pirate ship or aircraft if it is intended by the persons in dominant control to be used for the purpose of committing one of the acts referred to in article 101. The same applies if the ship or aircraft has been used to commit any such act, so long as it remains under the control of the persons guilty of that act.

Article104

Retention or loss of the nationality of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft may retain its nationality although it has become a pirate ship or aircraft. The retention or loss of nationality is determined by the law of the State from which such nationality was derived.

Article105

Seizure of a pirate ship or aircraft

On the high seas, or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State, every State may seize a pirate ship or aircraft, or a ship or aircraft taken by piracy and under the control of pirates, and arrest the persons and seize the property on board. The courts of the State which carried out the seizure may decide upon the penalties to be imposed, and may also determine the action to be taken with regard to the ships, aircraft or property, subject to the rights of third parties acting in good faith.

Article106

Liability for seizure without adequate grounds

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft for any loss or damage caused by the seizure.

Article107

Ships and aircraft which are entitled to seize on account of piracy

A seizure on account of piracy may be carried out only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.

You'll find the full high sea regulation under the following title:
http://www.un.org/Depts/los/conventi...clos/part7.htm

One problem with arming the merchant ships, is that it thin line of defense and being Pirates themselves.

Then again I would agree to have Naval, Coast Guard, and Marines loaned to ship with various weapons. The next thing is to find the personnel to serve on these ships.

I heard last week that the recently freed American captain is advocating in favor of crewmen receiving weapons training (and weapons) so that they can defend themselves from pirates.

I would have no problem with that.

Like I state, on one hand I have no problem with that, but on the other with some crews they may want to take alternative pass times while at sea.

One of two French intelligence agents abducted in Somalia last month has escaped, killing three of his captors in the process.

How immensely satisfying that must have been for him.

Perhaps what we need to do is infect random passengers with smallpox and then when one of them gets kidnapped the disease will spread and wipe out the vast majority of the Somali population. Problem solved ;)

I see your point. However, that would make many pirates legal owners of firearms while at sea. In addition, you have a good chance to increase the problem as it will allow many more people to turn on Piracy with ease.

Just for memory, the last act of piracy (as far as I know) took place in European waters, involving Russian citizens and EU citizens (Estonia and Lithuania are members of the EU).

http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/BH364.txt

When you read the high sea regulation you don't find anything forbidding civilian ship to carry weapons. However, if every civilian ship does so, each one of them could be charge with piracy. What, if the recognized Somalian government charge a US cargo crew with piracy? You'll end up with crazy situations.

Carefully reading these regulations also explains why the Russians kept the Artic Sea's location to themselves.

Gents;

Its not the point that folks have arms on the water. Its what acts they do while on the water that makes them pirates. And it is the same on land, a man having an arm is not a major worry. A man who is armed who is stopping and harassing, harming and robbing people however is a problem.

It is not the impliment, that is not an issue, this is true since alot of the pirates arms are not just AKs and variants, but also machetes and such, it is the actions of the people, that is what makes them pirates.

And yes we can not see what is in a mans heart to see his intent, but we can tell by a persons actions, at sea vessels give one another a wide berth to avoid collission. But, when one vessel changes course to match that of another which signals a hazard and an intent of malice well then we now havee our probable cause, and when they continue such actions well then it is justification to take action especialy after warnings and such.

That's your answer for everything!:p:p:p

Dr ..I am feeling poorly..
 

take two of these small pox capsules and call me in the morning..

My brother was a master mariner (captain) for 15 years, and now is a Melbourne harbour pilot. My father was a master mariner for 25 years.
Talking to friends of the family who all, strangely enough, go to sea, they are all in favour of bootstrapping up littoral areas with economic help that doesn't involve economic slavery as is so usually the case. Pirates are always fishermen. The Malay/Indonesian pirates, up until recently the worst and most violent, are fishermen who's waters have utterly been destroyed by having 1/3 of the world's shipping pass close inshore in the Malacca Straights. Killing a few means that you'd never sleep safely again, because if they got on board after that they'd cut all your throats. Those shipping companies have wrecked these people's livelihoods, and not a cent goes to them. No, I don't condone piracy, but I know what causes it.

The screw up that is Somalia is less evil Somalian pirates and warlords than other countries sticking their noses into the area and playing 'let's foist another puppet government on the locals'. Oh, and the fantasy that is the movie Blackhawk Down isn't what I'd consider a decent source. In fact, there's a source on the net that was posted on this very forum some time ago showing that US spec forces troops had engineered a cease fire but had all their hard work flushed because the brass wanted to go in hard and solo. That's more dramatic and career making I suppose, except in this case it was career wrecking.
Somalis, like the Indons and Malays, are watching the wealth of ages motor past their coasts as they starve. If they get a culturally appropriate government the west will get rid of it as being a theocracy. Instead they get foreign puppet governments from the very same clans that caused all the destruction. We hounded Aideed, who was a brutal bastard, but the gave the reins to his family later and they were no different.

The answer isn't 'let's kill some of those foreigners'.

It is a thorny issue, many of these Somalians will just be driven to piracy by their crappy social state - some will, like in any country, be nasty pieces of work anyway.

If you are being attacked by these pirates you naturally want to fight back - and governments and companies also have huge financial issues too.

Driving them off to discard their weapons seems the only compromise - the solution, in an ideal world, would be to sort the country out so the only people who would commit piracy would be those who were the 'bad guys'.

When asked about piracy outside somalian coast, the most (and still alive) well known french sailor whose name is de Kersauson (nicknamed the Admiral), gave exactly the same answer than yours. By the way causes have been the same for centuries...

(ChalkLine clambers down off high horse)

That all said; in what I call 'Phase 4 T2K' (Breakdown and anarchy) rivers and littoral areas are going to be the highways of developing trade. Any displacing hull can be a sailboat, and a heavy cargo means a slow ship. Pirates in fast engine powered boats are going to be a real problem, especially when they attack in places where a heavily laden cargo ship must tack or come close to the shore. I'm assuming cargo ships will be primarily sail powered as it maximises you cargo usage and fuel costs for moving heavy freight would be prohibitive in the low energy fuels available.

Pirates of the Vistula style, I can see cargo ships having a strong marine contingent and mounted weapons. More to the point, I think these weapons may well be mainly mortars that are both cheap and good support for suppressing shore fire and channelling incoming water-borne attacks. On top of that the ship would probably have 'interceptor boats' manned by marines that go out and engage pirates at arm's length or warn off/check out incoming civilian craft.

A twist on this it to have players as 'legitimate pirates'. They man light assault boats and are tasked with monitoring a stretch of coastline or wide river area to stop arms flows and troop movements. They could be based out of riverine monitor style craft that also mounts indirect fire support. This mobile base allows the GM to move the scene of the action if he feels the PCs have probably pacified an area and it is unrealistic to continue in that zone.

The unit owning the monitor would take 80% of the haul, and a 'prize officer' would oversee the division of spoils. This allows the GM to keep the PCs hungry for action but still with a reason to continue. Timely support from the monitor and supporting unit maintains the reason to keep up in their employ.

pirate aircraft? wow that's a new one on me.

Captain Thundercloud..Zeppelin Menace of the skies
 

Ahh.. to roam the skies in my pirate zeppelin...

or my motley crewed flying boat or Catalina...

to prey on poorly defended luxury liners laden with be jewelled classy ladies and strut around waving my Mauser C96 in my riding breeches..yes ....yes...

:D Mmmmmm... one of my numerous and totally undeveloped projects. A roleplaying campaign in the most pure "Crimson Skies" style.

It seems that you all have to watch "Porco Rosso" an animation movie by Ayaho Miyazaki.

Back to real life, you seem to forget that aircrafts include helicopters, a useful and deadly tool in the hand of a pirate that could afford it. In addition, during the early 60's several mercenary pilots were operating in various parts of Africa. They were operating ww2 warbirds that were rearmed after delivery. Of course, most were used for military missions but they also operated on other missions that had more in common with piracy.

Anyway, an interesting link on piracy, look at the other maps.
http://www.icc-ccs.org/index.php?opt...map&Itemid=219