actually I was right - its a .25MT not a 25MT - Raellus had both in his post

but he is right about where it had to hit - the only way that Fort Bliss is spared is if the warhead goes off over Ciudad Juarez and misses to the south, still taking out the refinery with the thermal pulse but leaving Fort Bliss intact

Looking at NUKEMAP, a direct hit on the refinery will put the HQ of Fort Bliss on the edge of the radius for broken windows from a 25kT warhead, with a 50 percent chance of first-degree burns up to the middle of the cemetery. Most of Biggs Army Airfield would be outside of all effect radii (a tiny portion of the airfield is within the "slight chance of first-degree burn" radius), as would the vast ranges up to the border and into New Mexico (recall that Fort Bliss has the largest maneuver area of any base, at 992,000 acres, and is the second-largest facility overall, with only the adjacent White Sands being bigger). If it misses by a mile to the east or south, the base would be pretty much completely unscathed, and in any case the ranges will be undamaged.

FYI the new stuff I am working on is a possible trilogy looking at events in the summer of 2001 in California, Arizona and New Mexico as Milgov forces and the weather changes both begin to take their toll on the Mexican forces in those states - which was never really looked at by the original writers as they stopped the timeline in the US basically in mid-April

I plan to address one of the big issues in the post T2K canon - the idea of the Mexican occupation of areas on CA north of San Diego - which considering basically all the water for those areas comes from the US and from areas under Milgov control would make almost impossible - especially as there is no electricity to run the pumps that move that water over the top of mountains

One of the big things I saw as completely unrealistic in the 2300AD timeline is Mexico not only keeping Texas for close to a hundred years after the war but also most of the American Southwest as well - even to the point of the US not assisting the California rebels to win their fight against Mexico.

There is no way that the US, by a hundred years plus after the war, isnt rebuilt to where it could easily beat Mexico in a war. Plus to add to that almost the entire area they took in Arizona and California is totally dependent on water from areas the US still has. There is no way you get Mexico keeping Los Angeles and Phoenix going without water from the Colorado or pumped from the north of California - certainly not as cities numbering in the multiple of millions.

That was a serious miss by the writers and one that really needs to be corrected.

Let alone the US allows Mexico to conquer all of Central America and Cuba long after the war? Sorry but not going to happen. Especially not Cuba - by that time the US has long built up again - and you are not going to see them let Mexico conquer Cuba and be able to possibly shut off access to the Gulf of Mexico.

And by then in the timeline the US was back in space as well - showing they are not some weakling of a country that Mexico could push around with ease.

The Mexican invasion of the American southwest was I think one of the great escapes from realties in the Twilight War. I can see why GDW included it and the Mexicans could pull of an invasion in the scenario were the US is heavily damaged from nuclear attack. But invading the entire southwest and then holding and keeping it are two completely different things. Once US regular forces turn up after the Mexican invasion then its game over. The Mexicans are not well equipped enough to take on veteran US forces even with the Soviet Cuba Division helping them. Also the US civil population is as well armed as your average Mexican soldier.

Even if this was not the case once the rest of the US gets back on its feet then they are going to want their territory back, and without outside help (aka the French) the Mexicans wont be able to hold the southwest for long.

There are some alternative versions of 2300AD which place Cuba outside of Mexican control. Ben Levy's site even has Cuba as a US state. I think Puerto Rico is also now a US state in some versions. I've seen another scenario which has America retaking control of the southwest fairly quickly after Texas wins its independence from Mexico, and then invading and incorporating the whole of Baja California into the US.

Just the fact that most of the water going to Southern CA comes from water pumped over the mountains from areas under US control means Mexico could never hold that whole area. If you really want to stretch it if they can keep control of the Yuma area they could keep the water flowing (it moves by gravity) to San Diego and the Imperial Valley. Other than that once the US cuts off the water thats the end of the Mexican occupation of any sizeable area.

And I dont see France supporting a country occupying parts of the US no matter what - thats pretty much an act of war that the US would not have forgotten. No way does the US help the French at all in the Kafer War. They would have let the French spin in the wind after that.

The French didn't, but the only way that Mexico could keep control of the American southwest after the Twilight War would be if they did support Mexico.

Its one of the things I am writing new modules about - to correct the situation in the Southwest and California to show a more realistic summer to early fall of 2001 that shows the US taking back some territory and the Mexicans having to fall back due to logistics and drought conditions taking their toll on their ability to hold ground - as well as having the Civil War sap any chance they have of reinforcing their people on the ground

Before people get much hotter under the collar and hopefully to curtail further claims that the GDW writers missed the mark/didn't know what they were talking about/screwed up/etc. etc. about certain aspects, it's well worth remembering that the entire Twilight history was a backstory to the history they created for 2300AD. Specifically the "Great Game" that they played out to decide how the 2300AD world came about. The Twilight:2000 game grew from that backstory.

If it appears that they missed the mark on something it's more likely to be because they were writing in the details that they created from the Great Game and less likely that they were trying to create a real world flow of events for WW3.
I'm not saying that their events list is "right" and I'm not even saying it's "good" but it is a product of it being retroactively created to make a second game from an existing game.

There have been similar questions/criticism's of the backstory history made on the 2300AD forums.

Yeah, I've seen some of the critiques and for what it's worth, I do not disagree. I just find it a little irritating that the game designers get slagged off for getting something "wrong" when it's entirely likely they were not actually intending to get it "right" in any real world sense, in the first place. That seems to get forgotten in the rush to "correct" their "mistakes".

Wrong is a VERY loaded term that I don't think I have ever used in this context and I would discourage others from using it as well.

For me objections to the T2k canon can be based on real world facts far more than other games as it is actually based on the real world. If the Greyhawk backstory had a reference to a river's flow being reversed by an actual God it is hard to say it is wrong. If T2k said a nuclear strike made the Mississippi River flow north we can ask with much more vigor , "How?". And attempt to look deeper.

I have been thinking about this game for 33 years. I try really hard to make canon work. The equipment for the 8th Mech from the Eastern Europe sourcebook is REALLY stretching logic for 1000 people to handle (Given they now have to cover every element of logistics). So i make the back story they had 4000 but lost over 2500 to both combat and the flu (possibly bioweapon). This paralyzes them with more equipment than they could possibly move. This is nowhere in canon but it works for me. Others could strip equipment or add more men or simply ignore the logical problems with such a small group having so much. There is no "right" answer.

Even with the original design team and our group's followup thought and effort, I am sure everyone of us comes across some facts from the backstory where we go. "Hold on a second, what happened???" For some it is 1% for others it is maybe 25% plus.

Most often the biggest objections come from our own personal areas of knowledge and expertise (One of the reasons i replace RESET in Krakow). That is why I encourage discussion here, I know a lot about many things, but no one person knows everything and some people have details or opinion I would have never thought of or been able to research.

Of my tweaks to my timeline and my adjustments to canon probably over 75% came from others sharing. Often an idea I had for 20 years gets replaced with something I read here (or other T2k sources) that simply makes more sense to me. Doesn't make canon wrong, or my prior thoughts wrong, just shows things can evolve. Especially as more information and opinions come to light.

As always I am worried about canon wars here so I feel the need to drop in once in a while and try to keep things cool.

I personally still like the idea of canon 1.5 for all new stuff based on updating V 1.0 with new information. It was suggested for the DC group stuff but things got so bitter then it never really took of.

People seem to respect "oh you are V2? I do V1 as my players like the cold war aspect, but hey the game is still 85% the same and maybe 5000 people still play so lets be bros". I really hoped that 1.5 could have been the same but Arch Duke Ferdinand was already long dead and the trenches were already dug.

Perhaps in any movement forward words like "not canon", "wrong", "incorrect" and "replace" would be lessened and "different version", "alternate", "updated" and "enhanced" used. This small change might make any Us vs. Them mentality a little less strong.

And I pretty much agree with all you've said here Kato, I am complete agreement that canon material suffers from problems, misunderstandings, lack of knowledge and contradictions, some minor, some glaringly bad.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in having your own opinion on how the game history could, would or should have gone down and there's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to change it to make it more suited to your game group or to your own tastes or to your own beliefs.
As mentioned, I just get a little irked when the efforts of the original designers are belittled by people who have their own opinions about how it would really have happened when it seems they never stop to consider what the original design goals were.

The original designers were not striving for a perfect simulation of WW3, they were retroactively creating the history from the basis of another game. They did this so that they could create a military style game without constraining the PCs to total military control, they were trying to make a game where the PC group could go off on adventures like other RPGs and were also trying to make a game world that would still have the opportunities for adventure once the PCs left Europe for North America.
They weren't trying to create a game where the players play out the Cold War of NATO versus WTO in a fight to the death. They already had boardgames for that.
Given those three known concepts, I find criticizing the lack of realism misses the point of what they were creating.

I do not particularly advocate for changing people's use of words to convey their beliefs however. If someone feels that a particular aspect is bad or even wrong, there is nothing wrong or incorrect in that, I just find the statements that the GDW designers dropped the ball misses the point of what they were trying to achieve and by inference even feels like a bit of an insult towards them.

And now we have a chance to finally correct that canon with the ability to issue new modules and sourcebooks. And we can correct many of the mistakes that were made not by wholesale changes but by making tweaks here and there.

And frankly correcting the 2300AD timeline as it pertains to the US and Mexico isnt going to disrupt that timeline in any huge way. Mexico is a VERY MINOR player in that timeline - and I suspect that moving the border between then two back to a more realistic location would in no way suddenly disrupt the game to the point that players throw their hands up and never play it again.

GDW's original authors made a lot of mistakes - that's pretty obvious (i.e having the Corpus Christi sink the freighter bringing the Cubans home in Gateway to the Spanish Main when other modules clearly have that sub in the hands of the UBF by that time jumps right up in my mind). And one of the biggest is the US leaving the Southwest , half of CA and Texas in Mexican hands - with dates saying that they annexed those areas long after the T2K war dates - and then saying that they would not have supported the rebels in CA when they rose against the Mexicans?

Sorry but no way in heck - and that needs to be fixed. Not explained away as "well no one expects a perfect game". No but a game needs to be believable as well - and there is no way the US goes out to conquer the stars and leaves a huge amount of its country under Mexican rule for THREE CENTURIES

that is one thing I will be working on with my new modules by the way - to enhance and in some ways correct canon - just as I did in the East African Sourcebook with the 2nd Armored Division - and I am thinking of looking at what happened to the units that came home after Omega as well

SSC, I share many of your sentiments. Kato, I agree with you on all counts. We're really quite spoiled, compared to the original T2K writers, with our easy access to information on the interwebs. We also have the luxury of time. Many of use have had 30+ to parse the published materials- plenty of time to find "mistakes" and mull over potential "fixes". The original authors had neither the web, nor a tiny fraction of that time (in fact, they were under deadline pressures), while they were creating their modules and sourcebooks.

Anyway, I really do think we should cut the creators some more slack. They did the best they could with the resources they had and they still managed to create something great (if they didn't, we wouldn't still be talking about it).

Olefin, has Marc Miller explicitly assented to "corrections" of material published in T2K canon? Is your approach a RETCON of HW or creating events by which HW can be reversed? In my mind, the former would create a dangerous precedent, whereas the latter gives ref's/players a powerful way to influence events in the game world.

At least once a month I try to do something the old ways. With paper and books and legwork.

Like yesterday my sister wanted to know how far away her sister in law's family was from the California Wild fires. I listened to the nightly news for reports on where the fires were and mapped them out on a road atlas and figured she was about 60 miles from the nearest fire. Had to wait for information and draw on acetate sheets and use a ruler, but I got it done.

Post North Korean EMP attack I will still be able to function for odd research projects ;)

I probably Could have done the same on the internet in about 45 seconds, but once in a while it is good to see just how far we have come.

"Olefin, has Marc Miller explicitly assented to "corrections" of material published in T2K canon? Is your approach a RETCON of HW or creating events by which HW can be reversed? In my mind, the former would create a dangerous precedent, whereas the latter gives ref's/players a powerful way to influence events in the game world."

To answer you Raellus the answer is yes - but those corrections have to be run past him and approved. Can you or I or any other potential author just rewrite things whole hog - no. He made that clear to me when I proposed a rewrite of City of Angels and the UK Survival Guide to make them more realistic (i.e. actual gangs that were in LA instead of the cartoon figures that are in City of Angels for instance)

So for instance moving the 2nd Armored Division to Kenya as I did in the East Africa Sourcebook was run past him and is now canon - i.e. that is where they went after Omega in the canon- which he approved. Same with the nuclear attacks that happened in Africa as I depicted.

As he told me the canon was is open to interpretation and in some ways correction - but again as he said "in some ways". Thus HW as it stands to late April of 2001 is pretty much set in stone. However he is open to re-interpretation of events after that date.

And he has stated elsewhere that changes to the 2300AD timeline, as long as they dont change it too much, are possible as well. And if I remember right with the various changes to the 2300AD timeline I am not sure if it is still linked to the Twilight 2000 game per se - i.e. V1 was directly linked to 2300AD - but now I am not so sure

An ill-advised Mexican invasion, a U.S. counter offensive pushing into north Mexico and a broad swath of the SW in chaos, City of Angels Mexican army forces are a multinational brigand force. Division Cuba are actually Cubans from Africa or Middle East with Venezuelan and Chinese mixed in. The Oakland Flu stops most military action like the Spanish Flu of WWI. A mish-mash of V1/2 and T2013 items shoe horned together. Any incorrect things or imperfections add to the impression of fevered rumors and lack of fact
s, news.

I am actually coming up with a very logical explanation that details how the Mexicans got Russian equipment in City of Angels and also explains what the heck a Russian task force was doing in the Gulf of California for the the USS Virginia task force to run into. Hopefully you guys will like it

Cool! I'm not planning on publishing so anything more plausible than canon is fine by me.

This might not be that hard to explain. In the later stages of the Cold War the Soviets has a very large military presence in Cuba. The Lourdes SIGINT facility near Havana was the largest Soviet communications and SIGINT facility outside of the Soviet Union, used to relay transmissions to Soviet military units around the world and to monitor and collect American military transmissions. In the early 1990's Soviet military forces in Cuba stood at 7,700 personnel, including a motor rifle brigade of 2,800 troops organised into one armoured battalion, three motor rifle battalions, one artillery battalion, and one air defence units plus support. There were also 2,800 Soviet "advisors" and 2,100 Soviet troops assigned to signal intelligence. There were also as many 6,000 Soviet citizens in Cuba working in an advisory or technical role. There were further small detachments of Soviet troops/advisors in Nicaragua and Peru.

Cuba also providing landing bases for Tu-95D Bear bombers configured for reconnaissance, but capable of carrying nuclear bombs or launching nuclear missiles. The supersonic Tu-22 Backfire strategic bomber could also fly to Cuba, and at least three and maybe six Cuban airfields can handle the Backfire. The Soviets also supplied Cuba with a wing of Mig-27 fighter-bombers in addition to Mig-23 fighters, capable of carrying nuclear or conventional payloads up to 1,500 miles and believed to be frequently flown by Soviet and Warsaw Pact pilots. The Soviets also sent twenty-four AN-26 transport planes to Cuba, which are capable of carrying troops anywhere in the Caribbean region including Florida and Mexico. Batteries of modified SA-2 anti aircraft missiles were also based in Cuba. These large missiles, often equipped with nuclear weapons, can be employed in a surface-to-surface mode by the simple addition of a booster. They have an operational range in excess of 150 miles and could be used against ground targets in Florida.

Soviet warships also frequently called at Cuban ports, to train with the Cuban Navy, and patrol the southern and eastern coasts of the U.S. after replenishment in Cuba. Soviet warships seen in Cuba included missile cruisers, destroyers and submarines. The Punta Movida complex, a Soviet built facility linked by rail to Cienfuegos, was used to service nuclear weapons from Soviet submarines. Soviet marine research and space support ships also operated from Cuba, and intelligence collection ships based in Cuba operated off the east coast of the U.S.

Once war breaks out between NATO and the Warsaw Pact then Cuba will become very isolated, but before the Twilight War it would have been quite normal for Soviet ships and aircraft to visit Cuba. From when the Soviets invade China in 1995 to the period of German Reunification up until December 1996, NATO was not at war with the Warsaw Pact. It would also be reasonable to expect the Soviets to reinforce their bases and units overseas during this period, as this was exactly what the Americans, British and French would be doing. It would not be difficult for the Soviet to ship armoured vehicles, artillery and other weapons to Cuba by sea or air. Although the Americans would be monitoring Soviet air and shipping movements at this time and would notice any Soviet ships or aircraft visiting Mexico, it could be sent from Cuba to Mexico aboard Cuban aircraft or cargo ships. It could even have been sent through Nicaragua or some other location via ships of another nationality, before the rest of NATO crosses into East Germany and starts the Twilight War.


This might be more difficult to explain, as I would expect most Soviet surface ships to have been sunk or moored at some remote Soviet port at this stage of the Twilight War.

Actually my idea is that the Soviets send a task force thru the Pacific escorting freighters that have equipment that was supposed to go to reinforce Soviet Division Cuba. The ships get to Baja, where the Soviets hear that a US Task Force is in the area. The Soviets sortie and fight the US and both sides basically get wiped out with the Virginia barely making it to shore.

Meanwhile the Mexican Constitutionalists, who need equipment badly, and with the Soviet naval forces destroyed grab it and ship it to California where it goes to equip the 1a Brigada - their biggest force in the area - which is about the size of the four Forces described in City of Angels - and bingo you get why the Soviet ships were in the area and how the Mexican Army in City of Angels - or at least that particular unit- got Soviet vehicles and armor

City of Angels would not be my favourite sourcebook for many a reason.

Oh I know - its not a very good book - but it does give a good reason for having the Soviet naval forces there to fight the Virginia in Satellite Down - thats how the Mexicans on the West Coast ended up getting Soviet equipment - i.e. why are a force of oil powered Soviet destroyers are all the way into the Gulf of Mexico - well that would explain it if they were delivering equipment for the Division Cuba and got into a losing gunfight in the process and the Mexicans stole the equipment to use it themselves

But the Soviets or Cuba could have delivered equipment to Mexico before the Twilight War starts as well. Certainly the Mexicans would have needed better or heavier armour and weapons than what they had in real life to have had a chance against American forces once they cross the U.S. border.

There is no way that Mexico would have taken Soviet equipment before the war started with the US - that would have led to the US, who was at war with the Soviets, being much better prepared for war with Mexico, even most likely to the point of a pre-emptive strike against Mexico.

After Mexico invades the US thats one thing - but beforehand wouldnt have happened

Besides if you look at their army if they had gotten more equipment from anyone it would have been France - most of their APC's were French for instance as were their armored cars - and the Mexican logistics system was bad enough as is to incorporate material from another country's design practices and spare parts as well

Plus keep in mind that Mexico wasnt planning for war with the US - the war was very much a come as you are war - if you look at the Challenge Magazine article on the Mexican invasion you can tell that it was close to impromptu - i.e. lots of reinforcing units werent even in position yet when the invasion happened

plus by mid 1998 most of the US heavy armor is either in Europe, Iran or Korea - what they faced was mostly light infantry and security units - which is why they got as far as they did - basically Soviet Division Cuba stopped the 49th and saved their position in Texas and the 40th only had a grab bag of armor and that was enough to stop them in CA - its why I said that the chances of them holding onto the American Southwest, or at least as much as 2300AD said they did is nil

as in nada, zilch, zero

however holding onto a smaller area might be possible - but there is no way the US just sits there and lets them keep half of CA, over half of AZ and NM and all of Texas - sorry but that is completo sin sentido - i.e. complete nonsense - and the fact the the US controls the water is the big factor - I have a feeling the original authors never took the time to research that fact

Unless Mexico was getting weapons that would be a real threat to U.S. forces such as jet fighters, ballistic missiles and long ranged air defence missiles, the Americans would not be that concerned about Mexico buying a few Soviet tanks and artillery. Many other countries bought weapons from the Soviets and they were not aligned with the Soviet Union. Also the Americans could only stop Mexico from buying American or NATO weapons.

It would be a lot easier getting Soviet weapons before the Twilight War starts. Afterwards it would be very hard to get Soviet weapons to Mexico. The fact that the Soviet Division Cuba was even deployed to Mexico is one of the mysteries of T2K.

Mexican forces at this time used a mixture of American and French equipment, much of it older. But City of Angels has the Mexican occupation force equipped in its entirety with Soviet armoured vehicles. This fact stands out like a sore thumb, but here we have it. How did they get it? Who knows, but there is obviously not an awful lot of it. Maybe Division Cuba transferred some of their vehicles to the Mexicans to stiffen them up on the front line in Southern California.

I don't know what the Mexicans were planning before the war, maybe it was an opportunistic land grab. But it clearly hasn't worked out to well for them even in canon T2K. All of their forces are over extended, and many units have split into rival factions or just fallen apart and turned to marauding.

I don't think all of the U.S. armoured forces were deployed overseas, although there probably wasn't much in the southwest when the Mexicans crossed the border. I am not disagreeing with you over the facts of the Mexican invasion of the American southwest. I think the Mexicans could have crossed over and overran some disorientated and badly prepared lighter U.S. forces in the early stages of the invasion. But I would not expect then to hold U.S. territory for too long afterwards.

Here is my take on Mexican military power buildup. I have never believed Mexico could mount a successful invasion with some major pre-war developments.

MEXICAN MILITARY BUILDUP NOTES

Mexico discovered and began earnest development of extensive deposits of oil and gas, titanium, gold, and silver in the late 1970s and early 1980s. By 1979, with the US economy suffering through oil shortages and other disruptions to energy and other needs, the Mexican government became increasingly concerned about its country’s ability to forestall a possible invasion should the US become desperately short of energy supplies. Mexico was also increasingly becoming a “rich” nation, but its reputation suffered on the world stage because of its lack of participation in international affairs.
As Mexico pondered its future in the world, it seemed obvious that one avenue was to expand participation in world affairs through peace keeping missions with the UN. First, Mexico amended its constitution to permit deployment of up to a battalion without a declaration of war to support UN missions. Second, Mexico embarked on a program to markedly expand its military forces. Finally, its diplomatic service and foreign minister became more vocal and assertive in promoting foreign business and trade with oil sales increasingly aimed at European and Pacific rim countries.
Mexico approached Israel to purchase Merkava Mk II, M50, and M51 tanks and Kifir fighters in 1980. However, the US moved in to block sales of the Kifir and pressured Israel to not sale the advanced Merkava tank to Mexico. The US also offered to sale retired USN frigates to Mexico and more F-5E fighters. The US also deemed the sale of Israeli M50 and M51 tanks as sufficient to cover Mexico’s defense needs, but did offer to sale a quantity of M48A3s to Mexico. The Mexican government considered the offer patronizing and insulting, viewing the Americans as trying to dictate Mexico’s force structure and defense needs. It rejected the offer out of hand, although Mexico operated 18 F-5E contracted for in the 1970s.
In 1985, Mexico approached France and Germany, which were both very willing to sale weapons to the Mexicans and not worried about irritating the American government. From France, Mexico concluded a deal to purchase 54 Mirage F-1E multi-role fighters, 60 ex-French Jaguar A attack fighters, and 300 AMX-30S tanks as well as APCs and light armor. The deal called for re-manufacturing surplus AMX-30S tanks with French assistance into TAB-30s. Mexico also purchased AMX Mk F3 L30 155mm, AMX Mk F3 L22 155mm, and AMX VCA artillery support vehicles. Upgunned AMX-13s and ERC-90s were included as well. Mexico also negotiated to buy 28 Mirage 4000 fighters and 100 AMX-40 tanks along with a license to build AMX-40 tanks. It also had an option to buy 20 more Mirage 4000 fighters, 20 AMX-40 tanks, and 100 AMX-30 tanks, which Mexico exercised in 1986.
From Germany, Mexico purchased five MEKO 360 destroyer/frigates, seven MEKO 140 frigate/corvettes, and four MEKO 200 frigates. Mexico also bought 30 M-48A3s from German stocks as an interim measure till the TAB-30s entered service. The M48A3s entered service in 1987 (later returned to Germany after war broke out). Mexico also managed to buy a few Merkava II tanks for evaluation and followed through with buying obsolete M-4 Sherman variants from Israel.
After German reunification, as Germany initially sought to dispose of East Germany’s military equipment, Mexico entered negotiations to purchase additional arms. In 1992, a deal was struck with the Germans purchasing 3 Kolin-class frigates, 9 minesweepers, 58 MiG-21M Fishbed-Js along with 7 MiG-21UM trainers, as well as 400 BTR-70s APCs, and 12 Mil-24D attack helicopters. However, by the end of 1992, Germany re-evaluated its decision to essentially de-mobilize the bulk of the East German military. The reality of the Soviet’s behavior post-coup was rapidly dispelling belief in the end of the “Cold War,” and it became increasingly evident that the Cold War was only paused. Although the frigates, minesweepers, helicopters, and MiGs were delivered as planned, the BTR-70 sale was canceled. Instead, 300 BTR-60s and two additional Mil-24Ds were delivered. Mexico also managed to purchase 112 SO-122 self-propelled howitzer and 96 D-30 122mm and 104 L118 105mm towed howitzers. Mexico also purchased a number of MiG-23s (18 MiG-23BN, 9 MiG-23MFs, and 2 MiG-23UBs) from Germany. Germany also included a number of MiG-21F-13s still held in their reserve stocks. Over 400 air-to-air missiles were also included (AA-2s, AA-7s, AA-8s, and AA-11s). A number of ex-Cuban Air Force pilots and personnel were successfully recruited to aid the Mexican Air Force’s integration of the new equipment
Despite the outbreak of war in 1995, Mexico received its purchases on time from France and even managed to purchase additional fighters. However, one MEKO 140 and one MEKO 200 were never delivered by Germany, with both diverted to German needs. By 1995, Mexico was producing the AMX-40 at a rate of 120 tanks a year as well as APCs. Its military was considered well trained and formidable in its overall power and competence by Latin American governments. Although the US government was aware of the build-up, most US officials, and the military, continued to view the Mexican military with relative disdain. That did not last long as the Mexican army steam rolled onto the central plains and into California and Texas in 1998. By 1999, the Mexican army was rightly regarded as the best trained military force in the Americas; better on average than the Russians and the National Guard units in that theater. Forcing them out was going to be a challenge.
By 1998 and the start of the war with America, Mexico had in service the following MBTs:
TAB-30 358
AMX-30 16
AMX-30S 22
AMX-40 503
Leopard 1A6 60 (with French GIAT 120mm guns)
Merkava II 12
M50 136
M51 322
TOTAL 1429
The Mexican Air Force in 1998 included the following combat aircraft:
Mirage F-1E 130
Mirage F-1S 14
MiG-21F-13 36
MiG-21M 58
MiG-21UM 7
MiG-23BN 30
MiG-23MF 10
MiG-23UB 3
Mirage 4000 70
Jaguar A 76
L-39Z 27
F-5E 28
TOTAL 470
The MiG-21Ms, MiG-23BNs/MFs and L-39Zs had been updated to use Magic II IRMs, which the Mexican’s possessed in considerable numbers. The Israelis also updated a number of MiG-21M to use the Python-4. The MiG-21F-13s continued to use AA-8 and AA-11 missiles, but they were for the most part retained for air defense in Mexico, though the pilots primarily trained for the attack role (armed with a pair of rocket pods and two 1100-lb bombs) and used that training during the civil war, hitting rebel ground forces advancing on Mexico City. A few of the F-13s (about 12) could use the Magic II as well. Mexican combat squadrons numbered between 12 to 20 aircraft. A few foreign “contractors” were available as well, including Russian, Cuban, French, and Spanish pilots – between 40 and 50. The Mirage pilots were considered the best, but the top scorer was a Mexican MiG-21M pilot, Jose Chevas, using mostly Python-4 IRMs (47 confirmed kills by 2000) and flying over the California and New Mexico fronts.
Still, the Mexican Army in 1998 really comprised a motley assortment of both WWII era light armor and more modern armored vehicles ranging from upgunned 1950s AMX-13s to modern AMX-40 tanks. Despite this (and the logistics challenge that inevitably followed) Mexico proceeded to overrun much of the US southwest and Great Plains.
After the invasion, Mexico also captured over 250 intact M-60A1 and M-60A3 awaiting upgrade, and a further 57 M-60A4s, as well as over 450 M113s. These were placed into service along with 84 captured M-48A5s. By late 2000, maintaining all these varied tank types was challenging to say the least, and many were sidelined by maintenance and repair issues, not to mention lack of fuel.

If you look at what engaged them when they invaded there wasnt much in the way of armor

49th Armored - biggest armored division that directly engaged the Mexicans - they never sent the two training brigades which to me makes no sense - they did well against the Mexicans and then ran into Soviet Division Cuba and got their butts handed to them

40th Mech - a new unit that had a grab bag of armor attached to it - meaning that they never had their full complement or even close to it - which can be seen by how many engineering "tanks" they used

46th Infantry - got overrun when stretched out badly and wasnt exactly a armor heavy unit to begin with

then you have two MP formations in CA and light infantry divisions that basically had no armor except M113's

and remember Mexico started the war with 500 or so APC's, many of them armed with 20mm cannons, as well as a good amount of armored cars that had a 90mm anti-tank gun - so against most of those units I just described they actually were close to one on one or better - and with the numbers involved they had numerical superiority as well - and most likely had gas and diesel when a lot of US units had already converted over to alcohol

and the date of the invasion - June of 1998- means that what was left of the US Air Force in the states was probably very limited indeed

here is the problem - given the US forces left in the country you would either need to completely change them over to armor heavy forces - or the Mexican Army wouldnt have been stopped at all - basically if they had that force level they would have taken the entire American West and deep into the South - i.e. basically its game over unless the US starts to use nukes on its own soil

So either you need to scrap the US Army Guide and bring a lot more armor home - or have the Mexicans take all of Texas, OK, Kansas, AZ, NM, CA, UT, CO, AK, NV and maybe even MO before they are stopped after a series of nuclear strikes on our own soil

Anders Larsson (aka Turboswede) created a pretty good Mexican Army sourcebook. IMHO, he did a good job beefing up the Mexican Army without making it too strong. His added armor is mostly up-gunned Shermans and AMX-30s, which makes sense to me.

http://www.pmulcahy.com/PDFs/Mexican...Sourcebook.pdf

My issue with the Soviet AFVs being delivered after the U.S. and U.S.S.R. at war is that the USN would really have to have dropped the ball, or been severely degraded, to allow a large merchantman or two to cross the Pacific from the U.S.S.R.. That's not to say that it couldn't happen, but I just don't see the Soviets risking something like that.

The idea that the equipment was transshipped via Cuba before the U.S. and U.S.S.R. were officially at war makes a bit more sense to me. Perhaps the AFVs were originally intended for Division Cuba but then given to the Mexicans shortly after they invaded the SW?

Could the equipment have come south from the Soviet forces in Alaska and/or the Pacific Northwest? Highly unlikely, IMO, but it's another option to consider.

Overall, I am one who can see how a surprise Mexican invasion, fueled by gasoline & diesel, and using civilian trucking to transport troops and supplies, could swiftly overrun the U.S. Southwest while the bulk of U.S. forces were dispersed to Europe, Korea, and the Middle East- even without an injection of more armor. That said, I like the idea of adding a bit of heavy armor- it makes the scenario more plausible from a macro perspective, and interesting from a micro (i.e. player playing in a CONUS campaign) perspective.

You dont really need the heavy armor to make it work - not when you have Soviet Division Cuba along for the ride - you basically have one heavy armored division fighting another one in Texas - and then a bunch of mechanized units with armored cars and APC's, some with TOW's fighting a single mech division that isnt even close to full strength, a very weak mech inf division, and a bunch of light units in CA - and AZ and NM basically left holding the bag trying to fight what they sent with reservist and NG units

and how do the Soviets send that armor across the Pacific - answer - the destroyer task force that took on the Virginia in Satellite Down - basically sent to escort three to four freighters with equipment and then destroyers lost against the Virginia - explains the Soviet equipment that was in City of Angels - i.e. 1a Brigada takes huge losses and gets re-equipped - by 2001 timing most of what they received is either gone from fighting or out of action due to maintenance issues associated with lack of spare parts and lack of trained maintenance personnel

17tth Armoured Brigade was based at Fort Irwin, California in the V1 timeline. I'm well aware that it wasn't a heavy armoured brigade but it did have a number of M551 Sheridans which might have been bad news for any Mexican forces riding in unarmoured vehicles (requisitioned pick ups, etc)

And if you were a Mexican scout and you saw one of these would you know the main gun is a mock up?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ismod_T-80.jpg

This strikes me as the most plausible explanation.

The idea of a Soviet merchant convoy making a pacific crossing at a late stage in the War to deliver equipment to Division Cuba makes zero sense to me. I'd suggest that if the Soviets were in a position to send such a convoy its most likely purpose would be to repatriate Division Cuba back to the Soviet Union.

in the new module I am working on I actually have the 177th engaging them as they came across the border and buying time for them to try to get reinforcements to stop the attack - but being overwhelmed due to sheer numbers - keep in mind this isnt a bunch of guys in trucks - the 1a Brigada and the Cav unit that came in had a bunch of APC's and armored cars with 90mm guns - taking them on with old Sheridans is not going to be fun

and I think the convoy is very realistic - it completely explains the reason Soviet destroyers were in the Gulf of Mexico - why were they there - they were escorting a shipment of equipment that was supposed to go to Division Cuba - and instead it got taken by the Mexicans - i.e. it wasnt enough to form a whole new unit- just reinforcements to make the unit stronger and fill in holes in their TOE -

i.e. Satellite Down is canon saying the Soviets sent that destroyer task force - so the question is why - I highly doubt it was just to hunt down the Virginia - thats a lot of scarce oil to burn for a ship that was leaving the Pacific

What the Mexican Army had at this time in real life.

45x Light Tanks (45x M-3/5)
310x Reconnaissance (50x M-8, 120x ERC-90F, 40x M11 VBL, 70x DN-3/5, 30x MOWAG,)
135x APC (40x HWK-11, 30x M-3 Halftrack, 40x VCR/TT, 25x VAP 3550) (* Marines had 25x VAP 3550)
5x SP Artillery (5x M-8)
126x Towed Artillery (118x 105mm M116, M2A1, M3 & M101) (* Marines had 8x 105mm)
30x Anti-Tank Guns (30x 37mm M3)
1,500x Mortars (60x 120mm, 1,440x 81mm)
40x Air Defence Guns (30x M-55)
? Anti-Tank (Milan)
? Recoilless Rifle (106mm M40A1)

The Air Force had........

11x F-5E/F
70x PC-7
12x AT-33
10x IAI-201
25x Armed Helicopters

plus and assortment of very old transport aircraft, a few modern light transport and patrol aircraft, and some VIP jets. They also had about 40 medium and light helicopters, some new, some old and many of them commercial grade.


According to Paul Mulcahy's Mexcan Army Sourcebook.........

Under a modernization program initiated in the late 1980s, the Mexican government intended to substantially upgrade its mechanized capabilities. In 1988 SEDENA purchased 300 AMX-30 main battle tanks from the French government which had been held in reserve since the late 1970’s. Part of the agreement involved the local upgrading of the tanks to B2 standard with replacement diesel power packs by SNECMA and new GIAT 105mm guns. With the backing of the Mexican government, a joint venture (Tecnologías de la Defensa Nacional - “TDN”) was formed by Grupo Bocar and Grupo KUO to remanufacture French AMX-30s to AMX-30B2 standard, the refurbished tanks known as the TanqueMedio de Batalla-30 or TAB-30.

Along with tanks, SEDENA purchased France’s remaining inventory of AMX-13 series armored vehicles including the AMX-13 light tanks, AMX-VCI armored personnel carriers and Mk F3 self propelled howitzers. Throughout the 80’s and 90’s DieselNacional produced various versions of the “DN” series armored wheeled vehicle for the Mexican Army. Diesel Nacional was appointed the task of remanufacturing the French vehicles, many of which had not been operated in more than 20 years. In addition to domestic production, the Mexican army purchased a significant amount of new equipment, in many cases replacing equipment that dated from the World War II period. The army's inventory of missile systems was expanded and updated. Both the Milan and Eryx anti tank guided missile systems were acquired from France. In the air defense role Mexico purchased over 1,000 Mistral man portable surface to air missile systems from MBDA missile systems.

Since the 1950’s Mexico had been a major operator of the World War II vintage M7 self propelled 105mm howitzer. In 1990 Mexico purchased Israel’s stock of M7s. In addition to the M7 purchase, Mexico acquired over 200 Mk F3 155mm self propelled guns along with support vehicles from France and Belgium

Actually you left out the 409 AMX-VCI APC's that were converted to DNC-1 and armed with a 20mm cannon - and which would been much more than a match for the M113's the Army light divisions were equipped with

and the Mexican Army Sourcebook is a fan canon piece not official - I tend to go with actual equipment - and like I said against what the US had left the Mexicans would have been able to do a lot of damage - this isnt a well equipped US Army that they were facing - you are looking at units short on fuel, with almost all their modern missiles and ammo sent overseas and low on spare parts and replacement vehicles

whereas the Mexican Army hadnt done any fighting as of yet - and keep in mind that the units taking on the Soviets in Alaska probably sucked up most of what there was in the US as to anti-tank and anti-air missiles and modern artillery ammo

you dont need an uber Mexican Army to do what they did in the canon as far as the initial invasion

because if you do make them that well equipped then they end up occupying half the US based on what was left here by mid 1998

and much of the fighting in places like California would have been done initially in built up areas - i.e. perfect places to ambush a modern tank with infantry - and except for the cadre they brought home for the 40th there were almost no combat vets in the US - a lot of the troops fighting them were training troops thrust into combat against armor - and even old armor can be damn impressive if you dont have any armor backing you up

Give the Mexicans whats in the fan canon sourcebook and they end up washing the dirt off their tanks using water from the Mississippi River and San Francisco Bay

And were these in service during the Twilight War period?

From what I've seen Mexico bought the AMX-VCI after the end of the Cold War and they bought them from Belgium. In 1992 the Belgian Army has 510 AMX-VCI listed under its army, and with the Cold War in full swing I couldn't see them selling any to Mexico until they had started building a replacement.

Its the only extra material available relating to Mexican forces in the Twilight War. You can disagree or agree with it, but Mexican forces in real life were woefully outgunned by even the U.S. National Guard. They would need to upgrade their army to some degree to even have half a chance of invading American territory.

According to Jane's, the first delivery of the DNC-1 was in 1993, the same year as the DNC-2/BDX. They're vulnerable to M2 bullets everywhere except possibly the glacis (the AMX-13 that the DNC-1 is based on is proof against 12.7mm on the front, but the DNC-1's armor is only 30mm instead of the AMX's 40mm).

Deliveries of AMX-VCI started in 1994 when 33 were registered as sold to Mexico. This was followed by 18 in 1995 and 22 in 1996. After that Belgium sold no more to Mexico, and other AMX-VCI's were later obtained from France.

However this in real life not the Twilight War. The AMX-VCI constituted one third of the Belgian Army's stock of tracked armoured personnel carriers. The rest were M113's, Spartans and AIFV-B's, and all the French Army's stocks of tracked armoured personnel carriers were AMX-10P's or AMX-VCI's. In the Twilight War timeline the Cold War is at 1980's levels and the Soviets are belligerent to the West. Belgian and French companies might be willing to sell new armoured vehicles to Mexico, but I cannot see Belgium of France transferring any armoured vehicles from their own armies to Mexico.

Agreed. You can't use a V1 timeline and real life inventories from the mid 1990's - the two are mutually exclusive. As an example, the British Army in the mid 1990's was around 18% smaller than it was in 1989 as a result of post Cold War cuts, with armoured Regiments particularly hard hit - halved from sixteen to eight. There is no way that it could have fielded the five Divisions that are listed in the v1 NATO Vehicle Guide / SGUK - a number of the Regiments listed no longer existed in real life.