A well laid road is several feet thick of tarmac (base coat, wear coat) and levels of coarse and fine stone. You might also then have fuel / oil contamination of the underlying soil if the road is old and has been in use for years... that is assuming the bulk of the topsoil was not removed as part of the construction process.

I suspect you'd reclaim parks, gardens, median strips and the like before you started breaking up roads.

But that is just my view and based on UK roads.

I see a lot of container and possibly raised bed gardening at first, until the concrete is pulled up from the sidewalks. Hydroponics may be a good standby, if nutrients can be obtained.
I wonder if anyone has thought to raid the sewage treatment plants on Manhattan to haul away the processed, digested sewage sludge, which is used as a soil amendment. This could produce another rumor to the effect that the Duke's lost his freakin' mind: "...And they were willing to _pay_us to get that processed human _crap_! :eek: What the hell is the Duke gonna DO with that stuff???"

Rabbit manure creates an acceptable hydroponic soup (I can’t remember the proper term off the top of my head). You put a quantity of the pills in water, shake it, and let the solution stand for a period of time. The water column then can be poured off and used to nourish plants hydroponically for several days. Lather, rinse, repeat as necessary. The beauty of this is that the bulk of rabbits’ diet is grass. You can turn vegetable matter unsuitable for human consumption into vegetable matter suitable for human consumption, as well as some meat and pelt. There is a labor component to gathering the grass for the rabbits. They also can heat a greenhouse, and they do nicely in temperatures down to freezing.

They also lick your nose, teach your children compassion, and provide your wife with an alternative outlet for her tirades.

That might be true...

Until you have to inform the wee one's that Mr. Fluffy is the main course for dinner.... :mad:

A friend of mine introduced my wife and self to roast rabbit...Everything was fine...until wife caught wind that the cute bunnies in friends back yard were providing dinner...Ugly is not the proper word....

My $0.02

Mike

So most of the time your wife does her best not to think about where meat comes from? I suspect 95% or more of westerners do the same. Personally, I'm comfortable with the idea of killing something because I want to eat it. Killing it quickly and cleanly is, of course, preferred.

No disrespect to your wife (this isn't directed specifically at her) but I think people who wouldn't be prepared to kill, gut and skin an animal before cooking it probably should become vegetarians.

I don't think most folks think about it Targan. Then again, I saw a pig get slaughtered for a family freind's communion. They were poor Spanish farmers, so it was knife meet throat. I saw it at 6, didn't bother me, and I ate pork afterwards. My wife? She didn't take well when she went to a farm recently with freinds and found out dinner has a face. I blame the schools....:D

If the worst that happens to me after a nuclear exchange is that I eat my rabbits, I'll feel pretty good.

There are some school textbooks provided by the meat industry in which hamburger patties are shown growing like corn.

Now that is just WRONG! How does anyone get away with that sort of deception? I'm all for blurring reality a little so the kids aren't scarred for life, but anything more than hiding the blood spatter on the killing room walls is going a bit too far in my opinion.

Mind you, I wouldn't mind a few T bone steak plants for my back garden if anyone's got a few spare seeds... :p

The US has a weird relationship with public education. We resent having to pay for something we believe ought to be available for free. We want high home resale values, but we decry property taxes, which fund public education, as the tools of the Devil and/or socialism. Many of those without children complain bitterly that they shouldn't have to chip in for public schooling. Consequently, schools are often short of funds. Enter private industry, which closes the gap with some strings attached. Soda machines got into the schools because the distributors paid a fee. Textbooks like the ones in question get into the schools because they are provided for free. I could go on and on about the wretched hypocrisy of our attitude towards public education. It's little wonder that private education is thriving--especially here in California. Thank goodness Finland and Singapore are too small and distant to provide a real challenge.

ISTR that in the 2300AD universe, the meat ranches on the planet Aurore raised rabbit, guinea pig, and hamster....

Back on topic, a good greenhouse can extend the growing season by more than 30 days at either end of the normal season. In some locations, this is the difference between having a growing season and not having a growing season. A good greenhouse can provide passive solar gain if it's attached to the south side of a house. Getting greenhouses built after the nuclear exchange is a bit of a trick, though. Still, necessity is the mother of invention and improvisation. A half-baked greenhouse is far superior to no greenhouse.

New England of 2000 has many such half-baked greenhouses. In southern Vermont, the Black Watch started as a survivalist group that ended up taking over the two southernmost counties. Pre-war, they did their homework on down-and-dirty greenhouses, which can be constructed from scraps and salvage. Unlike SAMAD, where most of the agricultural labor works on small intensive outdoor garden plots and the resource in shortest supply is water, in New England the scarcest resources are good soil for growing crops and days of the growing season. Greenhouses get around this problem by extending the growing season and by offering either intensive soil beds or hydroponics beds. One reason why the Blood Cross, a super-sized marauder band called a horde, is such a problem is that they have a tendency to raze everything in their path. Without the greenhouses (or their houses), the 30% of New England’s population still alive can’t make it another year.

I agree that the Mrs. has no "clue" as to where the chicken, tuna and other goodies she likes so much comes from. I mean intelectually, she knows that cow=steak. That knowledge just does not come up for thought/discussion.

No disrespect understood. Wife is about 80% vegan any way. She much prefers a salad/veggies over meat.

Me, I am the omnivore of the house. I see food, I eat it. (Waist line to prove it. Sigh.) How ever, I also believe that the human race spent 2+ million years getting to the top of the food chain. I'm going to enjoy it!!!! :D

I agree with the idea of if you want to eat it, you should catch/kill/skin/cook.

However, as a city boy, that opportunity does not arise often. I never saw live pigs/cows/chickens until well into my 20's. You just do not see those kind of critters in downtown Philadelphia. :p

My $0.02

Mike

Rats and pigeons on the other hand... ;)

Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife" :p

My $0.02

Mike

Quote:
"Originally Posted by Legbreaker View Post
Rats and pigeons on the other hand...
Along with other exotic "wildlife"......And yes the people count as "wildlife"

My $0.02--Mike "

Yeah, but from my impressions on the indigenous feral bipedals prowling the City of Brotherly Love, cleaning them would be a real challenge, and then there are the diseases that they carry as a matter of course...ick.

Are you knocking the "extra flavour" they provide? :o

Leg,

You are a sick, evil, twisted fellow!!! :D

In other words, you fit right in !!!! :p

ROTF,LMAO

My $0.02

Mike

Yea, it's the rounding up and corraling the feral bi-peds...

Always a challange.

My $0.02

Mike

Agreed, I think jury rigged green houses would we well within the range of survivors salvaging materials from empty structures. Even in a place lie California with lots of sun greenhouses would still be critical for the winter months.

Intuitively I've always felt it would be easier to dig up parking lots or sidewalks. But I never thought of much about the depth of the concrete or the underlying structure. I would imagine that freeways like we have here int the States would just get left alone.

I've always thought the Isolationists would be avid greenhouse types. With limited growing space (given the urban nature of Providence) but what seems to be an adequate supply of at least certain types of expertise, the Isolationists would construct as many greenhouses as possible. Unfortunately, given the separatist nature of the Isolationists, other New England survivors wouldn't be able to draw on their expertise.

Inspiration
 

The last few weeks I've been brainstorming Urban Farming, New York City, the gold, the Duke, the Mayor, the Acting Mayor, the Harbor Rats, firetrucks, solar power and lots of things that are apparently coming together--I'm going to compile my notes to see if I have enough stuff to put together an adventure/source book for the Big Apple, post- AoTN; and since "Rotten to the Core" has already been used for the 2300 franchise, my working title is "Beside the Golden Door"

Set a year or two from the original Armies of the Night, I'm going to have to figure out who lived, who died, what (if anything) happened to the gold, who is in power and who is out of favor, how the political map has changed, what conditions the people are living under, and what internal and external forces are working on them. Is civilization returning or has the infighting sapped the recuperative energies of the surviving populace? I will also throw out a few surprises and twists. For instance, those rumors about just what _had_ been going on at those government labs on the eastern end of Long Island, what cargo did the chronically-ill fisherman haul over from the mainland under extreme secrecy, and just who _is_ "Old Tuck", really???:confused:

I hope I can keep my interest level up to where all this stuff gels and I can set it down in a cohesive and interesting format. Wish me luck!

Much luck! I have been trying to spend some time with a new idea for three weeks, and I haven't been able to put in more than a couple of hours of work. Very frustrating when I have a clear idea where everything is supposed to go.

I watched a small car park (about 50 car spaces) paved about a year ago. The foundation layers alone (packed gravel and sand) were nearly 5 feet thick, and this was only designed to take the weight of the average car and occasional small truck!

Which takes us back to container/raised bed gardening for anything not just a concrete slab (sidewalks). We're also edging past the reality that most structures throughout Manhattan or many cities have basements or cellars, the soil of which has been gone for generations.

Harking back to the roof garden/window box/greenhouse discussion, it seems the Duke is going to be doing his damndest to _create_ soil. I did a couple of Google searches and found a long list of things that can be composted, and, hence, turned into soil components. The aforementioned digested sewage sludge, drywall/gypsum wallboard/sheetrock, dust from vacuum cleaner bags, hair, sawdust...it goes on and on. And I can see the Duke, spurred on by an advisor who's into recycling/green revolution/Mother Earth News philosophy, leading campaigns and plots to obtain these oddball materials by cash, trade, theft, or violence.

Some interesting though on an 'old' thread brought back to life.

How's this for a cycle. I take no credit for it as I read about it on a homesteading site I think it was.

1. Rabbits in raised cages. Fed grass clippings, garden waste (ie greens and roots). Fecal waste falls through the screen bottom to box pit.

2. Worms raised in box pit below the rabbit cages. Worms turn waste into right nutrients for garden area. (can be pots or raised beds depending on space of course). Worms multiply (does NOT take a male and female worm as they are hermorphic IIRC). Worms are fed to fish and chickens.

3. Fish tank/barrel with talapia fish. (Should be large enought operation to raise fingerlings as well to have sustainable operation ideally.) Worms are fed to fish. (now I don't know how much other feed they were feeding, but the talapia are fast growing fish so you get lots of protien from small area,) Water from fish tank is 'nutrient rich' and used to apply to garden. Fish trimmings can be fed to chickens.

4. Chickens free ranged are best. They do NOT need a lot of grains etc if ranged. They are raised for eggs and meat, though probably not fryers but the old stew bird. Don't forget the rooster if you plan this. You can fence areas of garden and they will glean them, and fertilize as they go. The moveable yards with 'tractor coop' are probably better than the free range even, just more work. They also get scraps and some grains if available. Choose a dual purpose such as Rhode Island Red or Wyandotte.. heartier and more independent rangers than Leghorns..

An modest sized intensive garden will provide food for the average sized family (4 persons). But it takes work and LUCK... The time to start this project is NOT after the bomb goes off, but years before, or at least months.

The garden: legumes, corn, roots including potatoes, leafy vegetables, kohl, squash and melons, tomatoes and peppers, and what I call exotics of your choice (eggplant, endive, etc). Also sunflowers and perhaps if you have the space some millet (bird feed). Cereal crops are out except corn unless you have lots of space. However corn can provide a good bit of cereal from a relatively small space. (The Three Sisters or Trinity = corn, squash, and beans have been the 'Indians' staples for millenia and should be included space allowing).

Now if you have a LARGE place (say an acre or more) you could expand the above to include cereal crops such as wheat, oats, and/or barley. I would keep away from rye since it is prone to ergot (a fungus that replaces the kernals in the heads and is toxic. And it gets into the soil.) With the expansion I would add goats. The goats can survive on grass or brush, acutally preferring brush over grass. They provide milk and meat, as well as fertilizer and hides. Do not take on any animal enterprise you can not provide homegrown food for however is my recommendation. Being as self-sufficient as possible is the key. You can have three goats (providing 3-9 kids a year) for less feed than one cow (which MIGHT give one calf a year). Smaller animals eat less food duh.

But the time to start like I said is BEFORE.. getting the resouces AFTER the emergency is going to be difficult at best.

Imagine what the lucky fellow with an extensive herb garden would be able to barter for! Everybody knows that rat kabob always can use a little more garlic!

Graebarde, I like your concepts, except possibly for the worms--I'd use the worms to make more worms, then share out the excess to allies for them to have vermicompost populations. Worms as food stock is viable, but I see them as a minor component, at least until you have the breeding mass rolling.

Earthworms are your friends! So are bees and preying mantises! Anybody know anything about raising bees or mantises?

Another plus for free-ranging chickens (and ducks, and geese, and turkeys...) is vermin control--they eat quite a few bugs each day, converting those hard little roach carapaces into eggs and muscle mass. My mother-in-law lives in South Jersey, where they had a program that gave residents mating pairs of guinea hens, who eat a sizeable proportion of their own body weight in ticks each day. This put a big hole in the local tick population, reducing the chance of lyme disease greatly.

Keeping said resources after hunger starts to bite will be problematic also.

In urban areas I think it would be impossible once law and order breaks down. There are simply too many people packed into too small of a space. But by 2000 survivors who backfill abandon urban spaces would have better luck in my opinion.

WHAT? You want to break the cycle? :D Actually this is a progression process, and worms would probably be a supplement. I agree worms are your friends, along with lacewings, ladybugs, dragonflys and a dozen other insects. I hate using insecticide as it kills the good with the bad. I never used it in my gardens. So what if there was a worm in one tomato? Or the green worms are on the plants.. pick them and feed them to the chickens.. watch the fun by throwing one at a time into the pen.... but that's another story.

Funny you mention guinea hens, The RV park I'm in has a flock of about a dozen or more that makes the rounds early or late in the day. They make excellent 'watch dogs' too as they will set up a ruckus when a stranger comes about. Should have heard the fuss when they spotted my heeler, and her reaction to something she's never seen before... it were funny.

My real suggestion is GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!.. Find a small community and some acerage.. one or two acres is LOTS of ground for basic subsistance, and a large backyard can be turned into a bountiful garden. Perhaps not enough for everything, but every bit helps. And it takes TIME (seasons) to get a garden area built up to produce high yields. Another thing to consider IF you garden.. use heirloom (non-hybrid) plants/seed, so you can keep seed from year to year. (The thing I miss about living in an RV now, but we are working towards a place to plant it long term with space for garden and small stock at least. Just have to get the septic fixed (Yuk at big bucks!!) and a well drilled for irrigation and backup for water system (More money) Then the solar panels... for electric supplement. More bucks!!! but worth it in the end. Solar will be transportable if we pull chocks too.)

THAT is a given I think anywhere within 150 miles or so of a city. BUT there are ways to 'hide in plain sight' too with some things. I think water will be more of a problem for city survival than food even in the long term. Along with the predetors and vermin. Hence.. GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!

Absolutely agree. Those that move early and move far are mostly likely IMO to survive in the long term. Those that wait until the last minute will have nothing but the crumbs left by others to sustain them, unless they've squirrelled away a hell of a stockpile under the floorboards.

AGREE FULLY. I suggest EARLY, prewar as possible, to assimilate yourself into the community you choose to live in. I suggest a very rural community with decent services and good work ethics.. nothing like being an *out sider* when push comes to shove. Community is needed IMO for the survival because of the strenght in numbers for food production as much as defense, but there is a diminishing return on numbers as well, but there a numberous small farm/ranch communities fifty miles or more from a city, you just have to search for them. Yes I know, that life is not for everyone, but better that life than the life of a refugee on the road.

Given the lengthy run-up to the start of the Exchange and the lengthy period between the first use of nuclear weapons and the first nuclear strikes on CONUS, we have a great deal of latitude to adjust Western societies. Plenty of people will be in denial right up the moment the first mushroom clouds bloom over American targets. Some will head for the hills at the start of the Sino-Soviet War. Between these extremes are tens or even hundreds (100+) of millions of Americans and thousands of governments from local to federal that will react to varying degrees as the world crosses each major threshold towards the TDM. The two extremes on the scale are the least likely: the nation is well-prepared for a nuclear attack (whatever that looks like) and the nation is completely unprepared as though the Thanksgiving 1997 nuclear attack came out of nowhere. Thunder Empire is an example of what a reasonable effort at preparation on a medium-to-large scale might look like in one area of the country. Silver Shogunate is an example of what minimal preparation might look like. The Black Watch in southern Vermont is an example of what thorough preparation by a handful of folks with limited means might look like. Poseidon’s Rifles is an example of what a large organization that survived with minimal preparation and a good of luck and after-the-fact organizing might look like. There is some justification for almost any level of pre-Exchange planning and preparation in a given locale.

We know from the books that people panicked at the first use of nukes and fled in DROVES from the cities. They soon filtered back though when it all stayed tactical which may have greatly contributed to the massive loss of lives when strategic strikes finally occurred - everyone had just grown used to nukes as an "everyday" occurrence which happened "over there". Even as the first missiles hit their targets in the US and/if reports were received elsewhere, it's very possible in my mind many would have ignored them as sheer rumour and gotten on with their lives - until twenty minutes later they got a sudden and very intense sunburn!

Biological filtering/magnification
 

http://news.yahoo.com/yorks-environm...163717660.html

Reestablishment of oyster beds in New York Harbor to help cleanse the water of pollutants. The oysters retain the nasty stuff and pee out clean water (relatively). Of course the oysters are not then to be eaten, but in a world where radioactive contamination of your drinking water is a concern, here is a way to capture and contain the bad stuff.

You could always ship some veteran filter-oysters to your competition as a "peace offering" however. :cool:

From what I've read over the last few years, oysters/bivalves, mushrooms, and bamboo are under investigation for just the pollution solution jobs described above--bamboo apparently has a high resistance to radioactivity and will segregate the radionucleides out of its water supply.

out of the mouths of babes and film fans
 

I just had a flash of inspiration while eating my mid-day snack; popcorn! It is everywhere in larger cities (in places like convenience stores, drug stores, and movie theaters) and it can be sprouted and planted as a full-sized crop just like regular corn kernels. Admittedly, it's not necessarily the hybrid "eatin' corn" we'd be used to, but it would serve as a food source/seed source just as well. And being "popcorn", it might be more readily passed over as a food source when SPAM and canned soups are still on the shelves to be grabbed.

I dabble in the self sufficient mindset so these sorts of systems are pretty familiar to me.

there are so many more efficient systems than the "big farm and tractor" approach we have taken for years now.

All the chemicals needed...oil for he tractor...pesticides...all the nutrient dead soils needing fertilizers.

I like a more local approach in my games...everything is local...population is limited to the amount of food you can grow LOCALLY!

The efficiency of a practice depends a good deal on which input we're trying to minimize. Mechanized agriculture is very efficient from the standpoint of labor consumption. This makes sense, given that labor is very expensive in our society. After the nuclear exchange knocks civilization on its fourth point of contact, labor becomes becomes very cheap.