We were shown one of the Blackadder Goes Forth episodes at Canungra (jungle warfare) because of the extremely accurate way they delivered orders. Seems the writers had done their research.
It was probably the only half hour of the entire course that wasn't crushingly difficult.

Sharps Rifles
 

the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers 2nd battallion apparently had some use of the series Sharps Rifles with Sean Bean in educational purposes .

I remember seeing one or two of these when on exchange there at platoon seargent selction - selection course . ( Pre selection )

Selection was in Wales somewhere called the Breacons I believe .

Wow...in one thread I've had my country insulted for being over-aggressive, trigger-lovers and now had my profession insulted as being tragically flawed for not doing it X way and being riddled with incompetents because they chose to go to college and be leaders first instead of followers first.

Really? Because the US as a whole, and the Army in particular are still stuck in the way we did things in Vietnam?

Because you've worked with so many West Point graduates, Web? For the record, I just gave up a company command in the 25th Infantry where I had four 2LTs that I rated. The most competent, tactically sound one I had was a West Point graduate from 2008.

First of all, his job as the commander on the ground is be where he can best control his units and keep SA of the battlefield. The TTP of having the PL in a Bradley/Tank/APC/giant-flying-super-ninja-bot, where he has access to all of the command and control and asset coordination capabilities is a pretty common one. Then, the PSG gets on the ground and fights the fight while the PL controls the fight. That is what Gorman is supposed to do in a fight. However he can best accomplish that is his call. Armchair general it all you want, his platoon, his decision.

Trust and effective command? What about just basic undisciplined individuals that don't want to listen?

All because he's not prior-enlisted. That would have solved everything and negated all of the constraints that he had enforced on him and thereby passed down to them.

Oh, Jesus Christ. I'm so sick of hearing this. As a Company Commander, with 8 years prior enlisted experience to my 4 years (in April) of commissioned time, this statement is the most frequently stated bullshit that I hear. Enlisted service does absolutely nothing for an officer other than give him an instant ability to relate to his Joes. I do 2 years as a supply clerk, drop an OCS packet, and get commissioned as an Infantry officer. Or an Aviator. Or an Intel officer. My prior enlisted time really helps. I know so much more. He can be a shithead just as easily or be shit hot. In fact, two of the most competent butterbars I've ever worked with or had work for me were 2LTs straight out of West Point, Infantry OBC, and Ranger School, thrown into a platoon and told "Run with it." One of them in combat. One of them in garrison.

Don't bother replying. I've said my piece. I've not attacked anyone personally. And I'm not obtuse enough to think that anything I say here is going to make a switch click in any of your heads and bring about a miraculous, "Oh, yeah, I didn't see it that way before." However, I will refer you back to my intro post in the Military Service thread from several months ago and the fact that I'm a few months shy of 12 years of Active Federal Service in the US Army...and a product of it's horrendous commissioning system.

Yeah, I think I'm done here now.

Deuces.

Wow. So Eddie, why don't you tell us how you really feel? :D

Eddie sorry that your feel insulted. I want you to know you have my respect man.

I often feel insulted on this board as well. It sucks. I really blame it all on one person who has demonstrated very strong anti American feelings. Given the trends I have been seeing in posting I feel eventually he is going to lead to the death of this board.

It is a shame really.

Heinlein, in Starship Troopers (and perhaps elsewhere), presented the idea that no one should be allowed to be an officer without first seeing combat. The problem, of course, is that you can't really do this in a peacetime army. The skills that makes one a great wartime officer aren't quite the same as what makes one a great peacetime officer, either, so you can't really be sure with a peacetime army which officers are really fit for combat command and which aren't until the shooting starts.

IIRC, there was a minimum time for Bishop to get to the transmitter station (the link to the command building also being severed by the crash) and pilot the second drop ship down.

The key was the alien getting on the first drop ship and causing it to crash, which really had nothing to do with Gorman.

On reflection, Apone doesn't come off so well -- he does a poor job of being a senior NCO faced with a poor officer.

Yes. I'm not sure whom exactly to blame that on. Perimeter security around the grounded dropship seemed to have been left to just one person, the weapons officer/gunner/loadmaster or whatever he was, Spunkmeyer. You would have thought that the dropship would have had some sort of active and passive sensors to guard against being overrun while grounded. Perhaps it relied on a passive system such as IR/thermal which the aliens obviously didn't show up on. Perhaps in hindsight Gorman shouldn't have had the dropship sitting on the ground near the colony with no security detail?

Gorman doesn't make every mistake that gets made. He isn't responsible for everything that goes wrong. That would be an unsophisticated approach emphasizing bombast over good story-telling. Gorman has a role to play in the story.

Webstral

I think it was the first Marine to get attacked (Deitrich?) who said "Maybe they don't show up on IR", looked directly at one curled up in a wall and turned away, not seeing it.

I'm not quite sure what could have been done about drop ship security. You really couldn't leave any of the Marines behind to guard it (the contingent was already small enough) and, at the time, it seemed like a better idea to have the ship near the colony rather than parked off in the wilderness.

It was either stated or implied that Burke had personally selected Gorman for the mission while the mess hall scene made it clear that Gorman was a new CO for the squad (while other comments made it clear that at least some of the soldiers had served with each other).

Eddie - sorry you feel that way. I agree with both you and Web about different aspects of the commisioning process in the US Army (19 yr E7 here). I think on balance the process works pretty well in the active component. In the reserve component the OCS grads tend to be better at the O-1 level, not so much because they can relate to their joes better, but rather because they've seen and know how to use their NCO's more effectively, without micro managing them. The micro managing of senior NCO's is something that I think happens with the current US commisioning system, that detracts from the quality of O-1's as they learn to work this out.

That said, the current commisioning system while structured on a the same model as was used during Vietnam, now produces a vastly superior product. Those of us with enlisted service will always be detractors of 2nd LT's, especially those of us who serve or have served as PSG's, and have an active hand in mentoring 2nd LT's into 1st LT's and future company command.

@ Kato - I agree that the tenor of the board has gone down hill, and I think I relate that to the same individual who doesn't seem to care, or get his own offensive behavior. And for my part as an American I'd like to accept personal responsibilty for the Twilight War, as an American I bear moral responsibilty for the fictional global genocide portrayed by GDW, it was my fictional government which prolonged the fictional Sino-Soviet War by supplying the fictional Chinese government with arms and other war material so that they could continue to resist the fictional Soviet Invasion. Further, my fictionally democratically elected government supported the fictional West German militarists intent on unification of their great homeland by force of arms, which began as passive support, and ended with a fictional invasion of the DDR, and Poland lead by my fictionally great nation, and it's obviously fictional allies. This resulted in the fictionalized decimation of the worlds population, with the exception of the fictionalized supremely powerful nation of Australia, which was not adequately defined or detailed in GDW's published material, who intended the supersoldiers from this highly populated anglophile speaking ally of the west, to represent the saviors of western civilization in the fictional post twilight war world. Unfortunatly, GDW went though a real world bankruptcy before such a supplement could be published, again I accept the guilt of my nation in this as I hold a credit card.

And so you should! ;)

Seriously though almost every participant had a hand in starting the war either by direct action, or lack of political will.

I'm here to publicly acknowledge that I went too far with this one. Gentlemen, I apologize for dragging down the tone of the board with this example of name-calling. While I maintain that the commissioning process is in need of reform, there is no defensible reason to denegrate West Point graduates by calling them "ring-bearers" or to denegrate non-prior service OCS graduates by calling them "90-day wonders". Without attempting to defend or explain any other part of my argument, I want to acknowledge that I chose my words in poor spirit and apologize for showing my less-than-respectful side on the board.

Webstral

Well gentlemen there's certainly a lot to mull over in this thread.
From what I had seen in the past and one of the reason I decided to join this forum was that people could express themselves without being too offensive and without others being so sensitive that they would take offense.
I know myself that I'm not particularly clever at saying something without it appearing cold,cynical, too blunt or borderline antagonistic - I accept that my personality is retarded and that I don't express myself well enough at times so I apologize for any ill-will that I may have caused for the past, present and the future.

However, this last lot of exchanges shows that there seems to be a whole lot of angst floating around the forum. While I have seen some things that are anti-American, I've seen a few that are very pro-American and by default come across as being anti-someone else.
I'm not saying that should balance everything out and I'm not saying that it's right or corect, what I'm saying is that people should pull their head in and think about how their words will be taken before they submit the post.
Text is so incredibly bad for conveying meaning at times and while I don't believe that any one persons actions should lead to the death of this forum, if there's too much bad feeling because of poorly conveyed thoughts, it most certainly will happen.

Kato has a tough enough time as it is, you should all know that from the message he posted before about his personal life. He doesn't need more trouble. If this comes across as the school master chastising the students, maybe that's what we need, a good kick in the arse to say "stop behaving like arsehats."
So please gentlemen, consider if your words may be offensive before you post but hand in hand with that, readers should stop reading between the lines to try and find anything potentially offensive in what has been written.

I'll climb off the soapbox now, flame me at your leisure

You are very right my "death of the forum" quote is not a colorful exaggeration.

Posts by unique users have been trending way down since the DC group vs canon argument started. We have gone from an average of over 65 users per 500 posts down to 38. The dominance of the top 12 or so posters has also vastly increased. We have moved from the top 12 most active posters providing ~55% of the posts to currently providing 82% of the posts, 90% if you go to the top 15. (note all of my posts are excluded from the calculations above as I have been the most dominate poster for the forum's run).

With over 25 years of message board experience this looks to me like the beginning of a death spiral where only those with the strongest stomach will remain posting here. The rumblings of new forums being created are starting, and the factionalism that comes with them will be close behind.

I'm confused about this part of an otherwise funny rant. Are you upset with an Australian poster? I don't recall saying too much that was offensive lately but if I have I apologise.

Following Kato's pronouncement that the DCWG's work would be considered canon on this forum I had intended to keep a low profile because I thought the pronouncement was a form of censorship and would have a very negative impact. As it turned out I was wrong and things seem to have been fine around here for weeks. Perhaps I was wrong and things aren't as fine as they seem. That's a pity for me because I was feeling comfortable posting here again but it would be a great deal more unfortunate for the forum as a whole. If Kato pulls the pin then we're all back in the internet wilderness again.

Lets sort this stuff out. If issues can't be resolved through private messages then Kato should take things to the next level and caution or ban posters, if that means still having a forum. If I'm the problem then ban me, please. No individual poster is bigger than the forum and no one deserves to feel insulted and have no resolution to accumulated bad blood. I hope I'm not the problem and this ends up being my final post but if so, VIVA LA FORUM!

From an Australian's point of view, absolutely. That tends to be the way the Australian sense of humour works. It is well known inside Australia that as a culture we tend to suffer from "tall poppy syndrome". I doubt very much any members of this forum are truly anti-American, if they were why would they involve themselves in a group that is numerically dominated by Americans?

I sometimes wonder how Australia is portrayed in popular American culture. I was playing Grand Theft Auto 4 the other day and in a radio advertisement in-game Australians were referred to as being "funny but militarilly inept". I was simultaneously amused and insulted by that, and it caused me to feel a bit defensive. I thought to myself "there are only 21 million or so of us and the proportion of GDP Australia spends on its military is comperable to other western nations".

I think that on the whole Australians are very fond of Americans in general. Sometimes we get upset at the perception that decisions made by the US Government sometimes affect the rest of the world negatively but hey, if China was the world's dominating superpower I expect we would be a lot less happy. Another issue that Australians may have is that American culture tends to be a bit overpowering as a result of cheap US media exports. Anybody in Australia who has a big problem with that has the option to not watch TV or visit cinemas. None of these things should affect the relationships between posters on this forum. Our mutual respect and long history as stalwart brothers in arms are much stronger factors in our relationship as brother cultures.

In closing I say be cool companjeros, be cool.

Edit: If this post is more a part of the problem than part of the solution feel free to delete it Kato. I don't want to make things worse.

As one of the top 12 most active (I think), I have to say I've increased activity of late. Wouldn't this increase in post rate skew results somewhat?

NOTE!
No comment I ever make is intentionally made to insult others. Here in Australia we have a culture of banter and teasing - the more we like somebody the harder we do it and the more we expect to receive it back!

For example, you might call your best mate a wanker and mean it with the greatest of respect and affection.

I agree. I wouldn't dream of alienating our Australian bloc of posters. You guys rock.

Having lived overseas for 6 years, I get how some people perceive the U.S. and it's a burden Americans have to bear. Like ALL nations, we've done some great things and we've done some sh*tty things. Unfortunately, those sh*tty things tend to stand out more.

I dislike stereotypes. They're usually crutches for the ignorant and small-minded. Unfortunately, they can't be escaped. I just wish that people would stop painting all Americans with the same broad brush. We're not all macho, jingoistic, boorish, materialistic, uncultured, loutes.

If someone has a chip on his shoulder about Americans, this isn't the place to to air those grievances. Like my mama used to tell me,

If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all.

'Nuff said.

I think the greatest irony in this current situation is that while some bad feeling has been generated due to the comments of some people analyzing the military (or non-military) conduct of the characters in Aliens, the fact is that Wayland-Yutani deliberately sent that specific unit to the planet with the sole aim of getting some or all of them infected with an alien egg.

They deliberately chose a unit (and it's equipment) that would not be able to achieve the military mission and while Cameron was most definitely telling a Vietnam War tale with all the badness that the Vietnam experience entails, I believe it cannot be overstated that the role of the Colonial Marines in the operation was to become infected so that the Wayland-Yutani Corporation could get its hands on what they thought could be a new bio-weapon.
The Marines in the movie were being f**ked over by big business, just like we all get screwed over by big business.
They were a disposable asset.
They were never allowed (or even meant) to achieve their military objectives so over-analyzing the personnel or their actions is ultimately fruitless - they were set up by higher authority right from the beginning to fail.

As was the crew of the Nostromo in the original Alien film. It seems that a prime directive had been secretly inserted into all the master computers in the Weyland-Yutani starship fleet in an effort to find alien technology. Of course once the Alien Vs Predator films came out we could understand why. Weyland Corporation knew of the existance of extraterrestrial intelligent life late in the 20th or early in the 21st century and then spent the next couple of hundred years looking for it off-planet.

Alien Vs Predator - what a total and complete waste of time!

From my point of view the predator films are about as far from a canon Aliens universe as you can get.

It's a good point about the corporate meddling in the first two films and one I hadn't really thought about lately. Given the information the corporation had from the first encounter by the Nostromo and Ripley's subsequent report, if they were serious about safety, them more marines should have been sent - at least twice as many, preferably 10 times as many.

Yes, the unit had some heavy firepower at their disposal, but they also had insufficient numbers to cope with even light casualties and continue being combat effective. Gorman's tactical and strategic shortcomings notwithstanding, the lack of decent briefings and preparation doomed the mission from teh start.

On the other hand, if it had turned out to be nothing more than a downed transmitter, and a full company plus had been sent....

The problem is though, Weyland-Yutani already knew what the likely cause was.
To paraphrase Ripley during the later part of the movie where she is talking to Burke about the Aliens, "I don't know whose worse Burke, you or them. You don't see them fucking each other over for a percentage"

Well, technically...he's in charge, so everything is his fault...so I was taught in ROTC, PLDC, and BNCOC.

Look long enough and you'll find anything online...
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com...t=69278&page=2
It's only a few excerpts, but it is cut and pasted word for word.

I agree that ultimately the success or failure of the mission rests with the senior leadership. I'm trying to show Gorman a touch of sympathy because he is, after all, a new LT to the unit; and he can't be everywhere at all times. The whole business with an alien getting aboard the drop ship is a good example. It seems odd to me that the drop ship is sitting on the ground in potentially hostile territory with its ramp down. Shouldn't ramp up be SOP? While Gorman might have the ability to check on this sort of detail, and while we might say he should have checked on this sort of detail, he is a new lieutenant with an awful lot on his mind. The drop ship crew let him down by allowing themselves to be very vulnerable and failing to prevent infiltration of the ship by the enemy.

Nevertheless, I can't dispute you that final responsibility for what does or does not happen in Gorman's command rests with Gorman.

Webstral

Yes, yes, yes. Did I mention yes?

I disagree. The ultimate responsibility for Gorman's command failure was Burke's greed.

I agree, an awful movie. I think AvP Reqiuem was pretty good though, and I think this is the movie that Targan is referring to in his earlier post. In the end of this we see an early Weyland-Yutani corp discover that alien life exists.

I thought the movie actually did a pretty good job of staying true to the feel of both Aliens and Predator franchises. It was even structured in a similar way to Aliens and some of the scenes were definitely paying fan-service to the original.

Obviously the corp knew what was going on out there when they organised to have the marines sent out. They had always wanted minimal surviors so they organised to have a small detachment (which also seemed to have a lot of discipline problems) with no chance of actually succeeding in the stated mission.

The only people who actually 'failed' to do what was expected of them were Carter Burke, who failed in getting Ripley and Newt impregnated and Ripley. Ripley was the traitorous dog who turned her back on her Corps plans and actively worked against them.

Brecon Beacons in South Wales - where the SAS do a lot of training/selection - some bleak hostile terrain when the weather comes in.

There are only 21 million of ya'll? Jeeze, ya'll need some more people, you want some Mexicans? We got plenty to to spare here in the U.S., and you don't even have to go through the trouble of documenting them.:D

In the US, all Australians are thought of as hot actors, actresses or supermodels who are good with a grill, making steak, or shrimp.

Oh, ok. That's actually quite accurate. :D

Oblivious ?
 

Ok Guys sorry to dredge this up again.

What is the DC vs Canon Argument?
Ive seen it referenced but cant figure out what it is?

I think If someone has unamerican feelings then they should be posted on a message board that has more to do with the subject.

Ive posted with some of you for years now at RPG host i think is where i started. If this collection of T2K enthusiasts falls apart i would be devestated.

About this argument in particular I say if Web has problems with the commision system then he should be allowed to voice them but move them to a post dedicated to the positives and negatives of the system.

As for Eddie I agree that noone here should have to have there carreers or personal life demeaned here. However the offensive post did not call out Eddie. Web seemed to be talking more about Vietnam and Eddie didnt fight there and hes not a space marine so I dont see how he could be that offended.

I dont mean to judge anyone but I think that as a neutral party I could help mediate some of these issues.

Ive always been more of a reader but i will try to up my monthly posts and help keep the blood flowing around here.

Thanks Guys
Keep it up Kato

I'd go with that. It's a deep and clearly controversial issue. (Few important things ever seem non-controversial.)

Webstral

Agreed
 

If there is a controversial issue related to War, The Military or Armegeddon in general then I believe it has a place here on the boards.

There was a time when the whole idea of playing games about WW3 was probably controversial.

I'm sure nobody meant to take a personal shot at anyone here, that would have no place here, Lets keep the dialouge open here.

SO many of the ideas put forth on this board and its predecessors are like canon to me and many other players because no one was afraid to post them, if someone disagrees they can post there arguments and we can move to the next great debate about life after 2000.

Speaking of that real world bankruptcy I was here in Bloomington IL to help a real world clean-up effort of the old GDW factory with all the owners present.
Thats where i got my T2k Books, 20 boxes of last battle sets and my original europa bags lol.

The short answer (which hopefully will not re-open old wounds) is that the collected T2K works of the DC Working Group are now to be considered canon T2K for the purposes of discusion on this forum, in order to prevent any further bad blood on the subject. If you go to the T2K Forum Thread Map (second from the top of the thread list) you will be able to find links to the DC Working Group's excellent works.

So the big arguement is this?

Are we forced to consider this information canon?

Can we discuss a game with our own information and stories?

If we discuss original canon or disagree with this group are we in trouble?

As long as we are all free to talk about our personal games and opinions
I see no problem with there works.

As for Canon? This work is not canon, GDW published materials are by definition the only canon. However I dont disagree that it is excellent work.

Ive always believed that this board as a whole should be devoted to building our own canon one post at a time.

Ive wanted the war to be portrayed in a more built up WW2 style affair with more C&C surviving through COG plans and all that.

To persecute anyone here for not accepting the rules as canon is not right.
That would be like the previously mentioned 93 games studio turning the DC group down. Why are these four guys opinions of more value to us than the opposing voice? If that is the direction this board hasd taken then it should be put to the polls.

This group is too valuable to place anyones opinions above the rest and squander it all for those reasons.

Just my thoughts on the subject
I remain a loyal member of the board and an admirer of Kato for his time effort and awesome moderating ability

thanks