In the 1990s, the US Government destroyed or otherwise disposed of the following small arms:

400,000 M1 Rifles
125,000 M2 Carbines
575,000 M14 Rifles
650,000 M16 Rifles
115,000 M4 Carbines
75,000 M1903 Rifles
100,000 M1911 Pistols
62,000 Browning Automatic Rifles
35,000 M3 Submachineguns
14,000 M177 Carbines
12,000 M2 Machine Guns
21,000 M1919 Machine Guns

This was the result of the post-Cold War drawdown, in which a policy decision was made to reduce the military small arms stockpile from "3 weapons for every member of the military" to "2 weapons for every member of the military". Such was the Cold War determination to avoid a repeat of the situation in 1940, when many US Army units went on exercises with broomsticks rather than rifles.

Given the rather modest increase in the size of the US military in the v1 1996 and 1997 and the very real spectre of nuclear war hanging over the heads of government authorities for almost a year before it actually happened, it is likely that a great number of these weapons (and hundreds of thousands of their civilian equivalents) were distributed to state guards, law enforcement bodies and FEMA stockpiles like the one detailed in Allegheny Uprising, along with attendant ammo stockpiles (last year the last of the US Army 30-06 ammo for Garands was sold off).

There should be plenty of relatively modern military small arms available for militia units. The issue in 2000-01 is going to be the ammo supply and, if for some reason the militia wasn't founded in 1997 or 1998, finding and standardizing on a few weapons types.

IMHO.

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooo!

:(

And when they mean destroy, they don't mess around. I saw a show featuring the Anniston Army Depot, and they showed how a weapon is destroyed by throwing the all the parts of an M-16, the barrel and receiver included, into a roller/grinder device that breaks the parts into smaller unusable bits.

And then it gets melted down to make razor blades, or spoons, or drink cans, or....

Sad really. Really, really sad.

Yeah, what a waste.

I think making weapons would be easy for a well orginised community. The task is a skilled metal workers job. You would need the lathes, drill presses etc. Then you would need to power them, that is already covered by the rules. You would have to people producing fuel to power generators, or, the tools directly by an overhead belt drive using a car on blocks and the belt attached to the drive wheels, the engine would idle and the belts would turn. The rest is just gearing the belts (look at an old workshop from 1850-1920's), or a water wheel which is the easier method for reliable regular power. The rest would be having a patern to work from, or the broken item. What becomes hard for the community is the ammount you would produce. 'I want an M16, OK come back in a month.' The stocks you could produce from colapsable designs. Front grips could be shortened or produced like the old thompson submachine gun front pistol grip. You could also go down the recycle way. Barrels for the guns would be just about impossable to make to any high standard, it is not a normal steel (something about the carbon content), so I bars would not work. Unless you used a smooth bore design.

What about plans? It's awfully hard to produce something as technical as an M16 without them.
Far better to stick with simpler designs with greater tolerances (such as the Sten or basic bolt action weapons) in the early years and rely on prewar supplies of the more advanced and complex systems such as belt fed machineguns, assault rifles and so on. Chances are ammunition isn't going to be all that available for the more complex weapons anyway...

What Leg said.

Are .223 and .308 the same rounds are 5.56 and 7.62Nato rounds, just the civilian versions? If so I can see the logic in making bolt action rifles to those calibers for a bit of standardization at least.

Generally yes.

This is more a case of making a gun, the mechanics is the same regardless of the weapon. If it is a case of not having the skill pool, then you would be taking a barrel of an existing but broken weapon. Then manufacturing a hammer system to fire it. These weapons would be single shot. But not as poor as a Zip gun.

There is little difference between the complexities of a bolt action and say a AK47 (I have left out the M16 because I agree it is a complex weapon) Having seen and stripped AKM’s they are SO simple, and used to ‘play’ with SMLE 7.62 Nato rifles (India conversion from British .303).

If you have the original item I believe any competent person with a set of decent hand tools could over time manufacture any item, using the original as your plan or pattern. History proves this time and time again, will it be as good as the original? No! Will it work most of the time yes, will it jam more often, not except new parts, brake at the worse time, of course. But that can be great fun as the GM to give the players kit that is dodgy at best.

Great information, Chico. Thanks for doing the leg work. I feel obliged to point out that existing in a storage depot is not the same as widely available for use. Nevertheless, given the number of modern firearms available, I think one could easily make a case for any given organization having access to at least some kind of modern rifle--provided one is willing to trace the path of the weapons from storage to the hands of the owners. The list above includes two million rifles and carbines. This is a lot of hardware, but we should bear in mind that before the nukes fly there are 290 million (give or take) Americans. Setting aside stocks of weapons not destroyed because the Cold War didn't end, the above list is sufficient to provide roughly one American in every 149 or 150 with a modern rifle. Even if these rifles were evenly distributed across the nation, somebody is going to have to go without. Halving the population as of early 2001 doesn't solve the problem because this stockpile of weapons are going to suffer from its own types of attrition. Still, given the sheer numbers of rifles involved, I'd buy off on any well-considered explanation for how a militia gets hold of 1,000 modern rifles after the Exchange.

By the way, the numbers involved make it a lot easier for someone to claim that rifles were set aside during the July-November period in 1997. This is how Fort Huachuca gets most of its hardware. Surely Huachuca isn't the only place in the country where materiel was sent in the event that the worst occurred.

Webstral

I'm of the impression that while the US government may have disposed of those weapons, some of the older designs (bolt-actions, semi-autos) where also sold to gunstores for civilian sales. What I'm trying to say is okay, so that's the number they destroyed but how many did they keep and what was the size of the original stockpile?

Black powder guns would show up again. Granted not many people make guns the old way, there would be learning curve people would have to learn in making any type of fires arms. Communities that had resources would be able to support or at least add to their arsenal.

Also crossbows that big to fit on tri-pod and unusable, it would probably be better on simple trailer device similar to the 120mm mortar. Now large man portable crossbow could use bi-pod for would be more manageable to use. Anything heavy enough to mounted on the try pod would require several people to move, thus negating any mobility that one would need in order to field such weapons effectively, unless you plan on using this weapon more or less in fixed position.

Crossbows are slow in general. I know there was device found that was used like a magazine on modern rifle were use to speed thing up, but drawing the string back will still take time.

Now in defense, using crossbow, black powder weapons, or even single shot rifles/shotguns limitation can be negated some. Especially if have some extra hands that could reload/rearm the weapon while the shooter fires another round with second or third weapon, or at least pull the cross bow string back....

Honestly, I see regular bows and composite bows, being used more than crossbows for largely mobile forces (raiding force). Especially if they are up against a force with single shot weapons with no magazines.

Atcualy under that son of a bitch kolintoon I hope his fuckin stints give out and he dies a horrible death. <yes I met the man and his wife more! Hate is a strong word, but not strong enough!> He ordered that all arms by Federal government that are not in use will be destroyed, rather than sold. There were no exceptions. That goes for military officers and others as well. So you could not have the option to purchase your service pistol that you had carried for an entire career. Same with Law Enforcement too.

And they would not be sold to the open market either! So, a good source of antique weapons in Gov stores like 30-40 Krags, 03 Springfields, M1 Garands and Carbines all get turned into scrap. Even though to sell them to civilians who would undergo a background check and give a decent source of money to the Federal Gov poof gone! What horsecrap! I can honestly say I would never take the oath of allegiance to the gov again. As Eithan Edwards said "A man can only be bound ta one oath at a time."

Yes, my hate is still strong after all these years, but it keeps me warm. And the "darkside" is a good life :)

The Army disposed of the firearms in three ways:

1) a large shredder at the Anniston Army depot, referred to as "Captain Crunch". Stocks were removed, weapons fed in, and scrap steel emerged.
2) foreign aid. The Estonian Army, for example, fielded M-16A1s marked "Property of US Government" in 2000. A lot of M-16s and M-14s went this way.
3) sales to individuals, through the Division/Directorate of Civilian Marksmanship (a part of the Army, which permitted a civilian to buy a single Garand after extensive marksmanship training & competition) until 1996, when it was spun off into a nonprofit organization, the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP). CMP reports that it and DCM distributed over 400,000 Garands from 1968 to present. Lots of those, however, were returned to the US Army after retirement by foreign militaries - they had been given as military aid and upon retirement were required to be returned to the U.S. The three most recent batches were returned from Denmark, the Greek Army and, most recently, 18,000 from the Greek Air Force, including several hundred still in the original factory wrapping. How many would be available in a T2k setting is unknown...

The general differences between the civilian and military versions are the propellant charge and the thickness of the case walls. Military ammunition generally is more powerful than its civilian counterpart due to the composition and amount of its propellant, and most civilian rifles are not actually stressed to fire it without causing damage to the rifle in the long term.

And of course, I will stress that this is a generalization, and like all else, is not always true.

Back in the early 90's when we used to use the local civilian range for our L1A1's, it was fairly common to trade the expended issued brass with the local gunclub. The .308 brass they had wasn't as good for reloading as the 7.62N.

WHAT! Civilian range and you didnt have to pick up spent brass! "You shoot twenty and you will give me 20 empty." Very nice and easy when it was dark and snow on the ground... (Sako and Lapua will reload spent brass to blank rounds and guess what- when not on FDF area you have to pick those up too...)

I am so glad we never had yo account for our "spent" blanks :D Because most were never spent, but, they did get "used" or so the report went.

Not to mention those magazines that went missing every so often...

I was always the devoted team and squad leader, giving up my BFA to the new boots who didn't have one so they could get the important training they needed. I was so selfless that way :D

When the pistol ban hit the Uk a few years ago, the poilce went round and took all the guns people had regardless of age etc. anything 9mm or modern did not all get destroyed.

1. the police took some into storage.

2. the police stole some and then sold them on. local officer got nicked for this around 12 months ago selling guns taken almost 6-8 years ago, and then destroyed! so what the govenment tells us and what the govenment does are two very different things.

I think we had to return about 90%, but as long as it looked right on casual inspection (ie couldn't make the weight up with brass bednobs)...
So, we usually spent 15 minutes clearing the mound followed by a swift echange of sandbags with the gun club. Everyone got what they wanted and a few drinks were passed round.

The Anniston, Alabama Army Arsenal was mentioned, but it should be further added that they are but one depot storing thousands of arms and ammunition (we're talking WWI/WWII/Korea/Vietnam surplus arms.) This is also the home of the Civilian Marksmanship Program's South Store where they sell thousands of rifles (M1 Garands, M1 Carbines, 1903 and 1903A3 Springfields and Model of 1917 Enfields) every year to the civilian market...along with millions of rounds of surplus and new ammunition (they also sell .22 target rifles, and used to sell custom match built Ar-15's.) This is just the program's south store...their north store is located at Camp Perry, Ohio (and they've tons of guns there...picked up a beautiful M1 Carbine from them last summer:)) These are what they have in stock...they've been selling rifles for decades so there are tons of rifles already in civilian hands that are chambered for common military calibers.

As far as constructing new ARs...lower receivers can be milled from an aluminum billet if you have modicum skill level. It was mentioned making cast moldings and screwing them together like a clamshell...this has been done by a private company already (and the BATFE shut them down promptly, but that is another story.) If you scan the internet, you will find that lower receivers have been milled from high density plastics, literally made out of plastic cutting boards. The real difficulty will be the upper receiver and barrels, although there are millions in surplus storage that could theoretically be pulled into service. The real problem will probably be transporting pieces from their storage depots to industrial areas. Small parts can be fabricated fairly effectively from other materials.

I like the idea of stamped metal parts...AK receivers can be stamped and bent very easily...weld, screw or rivet. Again, barrels will be the hardest part.

Any cartridge can be loaded with blackpowder versus smokeless...you just have to know the reloading differences and expect your semi-auto and automatics to very quickly become single shot repeaters. Black powder is incredibly caustic and care and maintenance will increase.

Great topic!

Thus, I suggested the two substituites:

MINI 14 which can be milled from a smaller piece of metal and poof you have your reciever, tap and thread it for a barrel and screw in the barrel, the trigger assembly is the next major component and then a stock and a magazine and it is ready to go.

AR-18; A stamped alternative to the M16 series. Stamped like the AK, with internal workings akin to the M240, simple, cheap and reliable but close to a M16 none the less.

As for stocks, those are easy, you can make a traditional stock if you had the polymer, a tube style colapsible stock either plastic or metal. Or a fixed tube stock again made from tube stock, and the forgrip, a simple checkered or similiar pattern metal tube and you are good to go. As it said with the M16EZ you could also make woodenstocks for them which I have seen in real life which look pretty good.

I can't believe people gave them up so easy.:confused: Personally, I rather die.:)

Mr. Heston would be proud of you :)

Thanks, I know the media wouldn't.:D

Nice ersatz weapons!

http://ww2f.com/weapons-wwii/33216-v...mall-arms.html

Kalos
this is an interesting thread though I haven't had a chance to read it all. I am a gunsmith by trade and I can give you my take on the circumstances of armament and firearms manufacture after the twilight war just repost what you would like to know. In reading some of the things you posted I can see you have a basic understanding of firearms manufacture. But one must consider the time and effort that goes into producing firearms.... consider today that most firearms are made using CNC machinery which has more to do with computer operation than knowing how to operate a milling machine.

As for manufacturing M16 type rifles....I wouldn't even attempt it. Build one from exsiting components sure anyone could do and do. Infact AR's are one of the most popular rifles for civillians in the US to build. But to produce one from raw material would be very difficult.

Also Assuming that an M1 would be easy to produce is also incorrect...first of all on an original M1 the reciever is made from a forging and then there are several hundred individual and complex milling process's. Also don't forget about the proper hardness of that milled reciever. When made today they are usually investment cast and then precision milled. LRB of long island makes a modern forged semi-auto only M14 reciever and it costs over a $1000 just for the reciever alone...

Not even getting into how difficult it would be to make a barrel and yes I know people have been doing these sorts of things for hundreds of years but its not easy.

Also there is going to be no shortage of firearms especially not in the US. What there will be a shortage of is ammunition. I own many many firearms but I only posses about 7,000 round of ammunition for my entire collection and that is somewhat unusual. Most people in the US have much less than 1000 rounds on hand for there firearms. I believe military weapons and calibers would be in the Majority not minority just due to the qauntity and availability of ammunition. 5.56x45(.223) 7.62X51(.308) are popular and going to be found in the US. Of course .30-06 is ubiqoutous here also even though is hasn't been used militarily for 40 years.

I think you could arm your militia with many different types of firearms if you are so inclined. If you would like some good examples of rifles that might be used by a Militia in the U.S. let me know.

Friends of mine waited until the police turned up ate their door. an MP5-A3 puts a very good argument across, lets not forget the the police dog and of course the universal key they have for all doors in case you have lost yours, the seldge hammer.

No what happened was wrong on so many fronts, it has not stopped the illgeal weapons from being there, and a SMLE is so much more fun! Also England has a lot of guns for head of pop, same as English police are armed just they are better hidden, and not so many as the USA or Europe.

An English A.R.V. Armed Responce Vehicle, has two officers, two MP5-A3's and 9mm pistols, CS gas, and stun guns. The training at county level is done by SAS trained firearm officers to a very high level. Responce to pretty much anywhere is around 20 mins with Helicopter support, just for you Merc or Spec ops fans

Lets hear it. After all, isn't sharing thoughts and opinions what this forum is all about?

Seconded

See the ironic thing here is now english cops are armed even though they have for the most part disarmed their citizens/potential probelm children.:rolleyes: Infact your saying they have special response teams with MP-5's and a freakin Helo? Huh, sounds like more then enough reason fight those draconian goons that work for the government of England. I mean if the guns are "gone" now, why do they need such a paramilitary police force. Sure, nowdays they will use the war on terrorism as a excuse, but really they just want all the power so people can never challenge them.
I understand why people don't challenge the government- it's scary and you will be made the bad guy by the media. Not just that, it's almost a sure trip to the grave if your lucky and prison if you aren't. I prey that bs doesn't happen in the States, but I know what my choice will be if it does- not trying to be a hard dog, but hay somebody has to jump in the fire.:hanged: Sorry for your loss of freedom man.:(

This is edging into the realm of real world politics, which is often a hot button issue. Britain has never had the connections to guns that the US does, so the perspective of the average Briton could be vastly different from that of the average American gunowner.

Here are a couple of older threads which are tangentally connected to this one
Privately owned weapons in Europe?
What happened to all those guns?

Another thread form that past which might be related to this one

Post-TDM Arms Manufacture

Sorry this is not the thread to discuss this so i will try not to rabbit on. I have read the old threads above. There is a big gun culture in England, but it is very quite, after a number of shoot outs where the police rightly killed the bad guys the press is against all guns. OK I have a number of friends who shoot full bore rifle, like SMLE's .303 or Indian/Pakistan converted 7.62. .22 rifles are very much liked and common in this sport both bolt and semi auto(the only gun you are aloud in semi auto) 7.62 bolt action used for hunting ( deer stalking is BIG money in Scotland and the North East) Whinchester carbines in .38 are beloved, because the police hate them for there size and mag. Ammo is the hardest thing to come by, with each gun having to have its place on your lisence and diferent calibers needing more permits. The most you are aloud (to my knowledge) is around 1000 rounds. However in England you can have all the component parts to make the ammo with out a lisence! It only becomes against the law when and if you put the parts together with out the lisence. The bigest caliber that i know of locally is a .50 cal single shot rifle used in compeation, the police are as mad as hell about it. Within around a 10 mile radius of where I live there are some 15 rifles that I know of and three people who press their own ammo from reused brass.

Didn't mean to suggest that Briton did not have a strong gun culture. Sorry if it came off that way. We Americans are kinda assumed to be a little more gun focused than most other nations.

As always it is a shame when a few bad apples ruin things for everyone.

Purely in a T2k context, there is a possibility that handguns would never have been banned in the UK. The handgun ban came into effect in 1997, as a direct result of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre.