CA,

Not just Canadian businesses. Some American bars across the line will accept Canadian Tire money at par. This is more of a promotional situation, as these or other bars will also accept Canadian money at par (not such a big deal now, of course).

Tony

This actually gives me an idea... Does anyone remember about Company Towns (such as with Mining towns) that inspired the song "Sixteen Tons" that deal with 'I owe my Soul to the Company Store'?

Could something similar to this work in the T2K universe? Not with just a single company, but with all of the stores in a single company. The creation of a currency based on the number of hours you work (or will work). These could be filled out like Checks, that the holder could easily 'cash' by getting the person who filled it out to do said number of hours of work at a community farm, or other endeavor that the community (or private) enterprise is carrying out.

Any idea what we could call something like this form of currency?

Credits.

Ithaca HOUR
 

The Ithaca HOUR is a local currency used in Ithaca, New York and is the oldest and largest local currency system in the United States that is still operating. One Ithaca HOUR is valued at US$10 and is generally recommended to be used as payment for one hour's work, although the rate is negotiable. HOURS are printed on high-quality paper and use faint graphics that would be difficult to reproduce, and each bill is stamped with a serial number, in order to discourage counterfeiting. More can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithaca_Hours#Origin

Doesn't the Constitution reserve the right to print currency for the federal government?

No... that's a major misconception.. Congress has the power to mint coins. The Federal Reserve isn't actually part of the Federal Government. Go figure.

Nate,

As recently posted, this currency is called "scrip", and it has been in periodic use in the USA for a long time, including the Great Depression. I'll repost the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip

Company scrip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip

Tony

Currency in T2K
 

Barter seems to be the default form of commerce in every T2KU I've ever set virtual foot in. Although realistic, it can feel a bit cliché. Aside from barter, gold is most often mentioned in the published materials as a medium of exchange in the T2KU. But how many common people would have access to more than a couple of ounces of gold? This would go quickly in the post-collapse economy. The closest thing to modern currency that I can find is the ration chits mentioned in the Free City of Krakow. It's printed by the city government and used as payment for laborers in the city's service. It's also accepted as payment by many local merchants.

I'm not an economists, and I find most aspects of monetary theory quite baffling. I've heard modern currency described as a "globally accepted, mutually agreed-upon hallucination" and it's hard to argue with that. In other words, money only has value because we all agree that it does. This was brought home to me a few years ago while I was playing Fallout 3, in which the denizens of the game universe use bottle caps as money. There's no explanation given in the game- not that I came across, anyway- as to why people attach any sort of value to said caps, but, in the game world, they're universally accepted as a medium of exchange.

Feudal Japan is a periodic interest of mine. In the original Shogun: Total War computer game, one's clan measures its annual income in Koku, a unit representing the amount of rice that can feed one person per year. A system like this would make sense in many parts of the T2KU, where food is an incredibly sought-after commodity. I'm not sure how it would translate into a widely used currency system, though. Is this the "food standard" as the "gold standard"?

In the T2KU, there aren't many central governments with the power and resources to issue and regulate paper money. Would forms of currency only work on a very local level? Could one exchange Krakow ration chits for paper currency issued by the Lublin government and vice-versa? Would different polities accept others' money? Without central banks, who would determine the exchange rates?

I feel really ignorant- I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this idea. I'm hoping that a few of you understand this better than me and can explain it well enough to help me get there.

How do you see currency making a comeback in T2K? Has anyone here put any thought/work into this? If so, I'd love to look at what you've come up with.

Yes, I think that "currency" in some form not too dissimilar to what we have now would make a come back. Maybe not extremely fast, but it would make a come back. Probably at first more like the Krakow ration chits, where it is backed by some form of food. I remember some PA short story that one state level sucessor government had "corn bucks" which represented some amount of corn (I'll try and find the title). Other things that the temporary currency could be backed by might include ammunition, salt, equipment, or other commodities. Wasn't there something like that in one of the episodes of Jericho? There was something like this (local chits for various things) in a PA book titled Among Madmen if my memory is serving me correctly. Later the chits/credits/whatever it's called might be backed or represent an amount of labor. But most of these currencys would need to be backed by something. Only later would fiat currency make a come back and only once people had a trust of the issuer.

Yes, I think that such backed local currencys would be accepted, after a while, in other places, probably at a discount and only of course from places that had earned a reputation for honoring their currency.

Just a few things on gold as currency. The majority of the gold "currency" would probably be in the form of jewelry. That's how most people encounter (and own) gold. I think that a lot of businesses would have scales, and probably use grams as the unit of measure. The jewelry could evn be broken or damaged, but would generally need to have the proof mark still visible. The actual coins and ingots would probably be well accepted and more valuable, but also more rare.

Also, silver would be much more common for use as currency than gold. Lots more folks have some, maybe a lot of sterling (.925) jewelry, and more than a fair number have at least a few silver coins around (at least in the US). For that matter, you can still come across silver coins in change from stores and banks. I usually come across around 4 coins a year in loose change, and when I go seriously looking for them from banks will find 10 to 20 (40%) half dollars a year.

Ammunition was used extensively as currency in my last T2K campaign, at least by the PCs. They'd trade calibers they little or no use for to obtain either ammo they could use, or other goods such as decent quality food.

This wasn't quite as standardised as in Metro 2033, mind, but at least in areas where ammunition was still to be had, I can see it making a very useful "currency" of sorts.

Currency will have to develop. I don't know the rate or exactly how it would be standardized, but trade would demand portable currency.

Perhaps every local currency will be valued in relation to the French Franc.

The French would certainly still have paper currency.

A franc could have half its value in the areas just east of the Dead Zone and perhaps a similar amount in Krakow. The value elsewhere would depend on how easy it is to reach the French borders or French territories.

Diamonds would also likely be a form of currency.

Other gemstones also. The only problem would be knowing what stones are "real" and which are fake.

Agreed on diamonds and gemstones. We're not looking at a very high-volume in circulation, though, so although they would be widely-accepted, they wouldn't be widely/frequently used on a day-to-day basis.

Ammunition might work but not everyone would want ammunition. It's essentially a barter item, which relies on the double coincidence of wants, where both parties want/need the item that the other is offering for trade. In the T2KU, ammo would have value, but not to everybody. Although folks with weapons or who deal regularly with such folks might value ammo as currency, others who don't likely would not. Currency is a universally accepted medium of exchange.

The Franc is an interesting idea. I think it would see fairly widespread use in regions bordering France (or French colonies) but I don't see it being used much beyond that. Poland, for example, is too far away from the issuer/guarantor/regulator. Maybe after a few years, if France does indeed become the major power in Europe but not really until.

I don't know much about Wampum, but shell beads were used as a kind of fiat currency by Native Americans and Dutch traders in the New Holland area in early colonial times. There was even an exchange rate between Wampum and Dutch coinage. What could be the Wampum of the Twilight world?

France wants to be a major power.

I can see them sending Agents/Ambassadors to regions of stability (like Krakow) and trying to facilitate regular trade with those regions. Trading local script for francs would increase France influence.

One of the reasons the US is a major economic power is that most countries currently use the US dollar for transactions. (Though BRIC is trying to change that)

I can definitely see this happening in the long run, but, IMO, this probably wouldn't occur for at least a couple of years after 2000. There's just too much chaotic and/or disputed territory between France and Krakow for routine trade to be an option. Some serious regional stabilization would be required before long-distance trade could safely/reliably take place. In the meantime, would the Franc have value in, for example, Krakow? I can see savvy, long-sighted individuals there wanting to accumulate Francs as a long-term investment, but would most common people eking out a meager living in the Krakow food-for-labor economy attach much, if any, value to the currency of a far-away polity with which there is infrequent (at best) contact? I don't think so. In the case of Krakow, I'm not sure what the city state would be able to offer in return.

Distance is a key factor.

Since I happen to have all the Units databased the closest French unit to Krakow is the 6th Armored Division which is 831km (516 miles) away from Krakow in Worms Germany.

The Swiss border is 779.5 Km (484 miles) from Krakow

These are pretty significant distances, but T2k has merchant convoys everywhere so I can certainly see Francs moving around.

Perhaps outside of France the Franc loses 33% of its value immediately. (You have to have access to the border).

Then maybe it loses 33% of its remaining value per 3 days travel distance (120 miles??) to someone willing to trade.

This is where I see France really trying to establish some type of money trading in settled areas. If you have multiple points where someone can feel confident of a good trade the value of the Franc shoots up over large swaths of territory.

I know it does not explain trade fully in 2000, but maybe the seeds are being established during that time.

I would still make a case for gold and silver.

They have been recognised as having value for thousands of years and there is still enough in circulation to mean that people would have some when the world went into the crapper. It's relatively easy to discover if it is real or not and very easy to transport.

Much will depend on what value is attached to it although the same holds doubly for paper money. If you tag an ounce of silver at one day's food, an ounce of gold is usually valued at 60 times higher so a family with only a couple of ounces of gold would still be able to buy 120 days of food with it.

Humans need some sort of option other than barter if we are going to trade effectively and gold and silver seem to fit the bill better than some existing currency. Currencies only hold value because a government backs it. If you are in Krakow during 2000, a franc is just paper because it is next to impossible to see how France could back up the promissory note in any effective way. Gold and silver on the other hand are tangible and have a perceived intrinsic value.

True, a starving hunter is unlikely to give up his gun for whatever amount of bullion you offer him, but neither is h going to sell it for a fistful of francs. A merchant or farmer on the other hand seems to me to be more likely to trade goods of bullion than a paper note from a country over a thousand miles and three hostile armies away.

I don't see a problem with using gold and silver as a fairly universal currency until enough places get organised enough to be trusted as currencies in other areas.

Found a prior thread with some food for thought

http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...light=currency

It covers military and local scripts, Web's use of kilocalories, and bullion and junk silver.

Nice. I did a forum and thread map/archive search for currency but missed this. Merge completed.

I don't think there's no case for gold, I just think that by 2000, most average citizens will have spent most of their gold (i.e. jewelry, family silver service, etc.) on basic necessities like food, shelter, protection, etc. Therefore, dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with, but your average citizen will still have very little, if any. As a result, something else is needed for use as currency. That's my reasoning, at least. My question is what will be used?

In the case of ordinary civilians, I'd assume that they are still relying on barter. Most will be either growing their own food and trading surplus for whatever they can't grow or make or being paid in food and goods for their labour.
If they have a surplus they can't trade for something they need, they'll have to trade for something durable of value in the hope they can use it to buy something they need later. This might be ammunition, tools or whatever but they may just have to settle for a knock down price in gold and silver from the local merchant.
I don't see anyone recognising a currency that isn't backed locally by food, fuel or something else tangible. This is how the chit works in Krakow and I don't see it being that successful. Most people will work for food in hand rather than chits because the chit needs you to trust that the government actually has the food to redeem the vouchers. I can see inflation and deflation in the chit being so rampant and trade dependent that it wouldn't be trusted much.
It depends what you mean by trade I suppose.
If you mean day to day survival by civilians: just like most of history, it will be by barter of goods and services, even today that happens a lot although we are a lot more cash dependent. Most civilians won't be popping down to local shops to trade their francs, chits or bottle caps for goods, they'll either be redeeming them for food before a bad harvest cuts the dole or working food and goods in hand rather than relying on a shaky government.
Larger scale trade between merchants or richer people could still rely on gold and silver.
In many ways any government backed currency in early TK2 is effectively an additional tax as it will cost to exchange into whatever scrip is legal in the country. Like many taxes in low information environments, people will be avoiding them like the plague.

Samples of things actually used as currency (or investment stock) in our own real world before the advent of paper currency. The Time frames are from a 25 year old college Economics book I just happened to still have on my shelf

Ammunition (Africa 19th & 20th century)
Coins, usually of precious metals (world wide, from Biblical Times)
Corn (Americas, until European Colonization)
Grain (Persia, Africa, Biblical Times)
Gems, both precious & semi-precious (world wide, from Biblical Times)
Livestock (Asia, Africa, Americas, Europe, Biblical times thru the Dark Ages)
Minerals (World Wide, from Biblical Times)
Nails (Europe, Americas, Dark Ages until the 18th Century)
Rice (Asia, until the 20th Century)
Pepper (Persian and Roman Empires)
Salt (Carthaginian/Roman Empires, still used in India until the 20th Century)
Tulip Bulbs (used as one of the first "Futures investments" in Holland, During the Age of Reason)

These were "barter" items whose value was generally established and set (ie. a chicken is worth six nails) by the society in question. This list is by no means totally inclusive and many other examples probably exist. This was just a small list in one book. It is amazing that so many strange objects could persist as a "currency" well into the 20th Century though.

You are probably correct here. Most average citizans would have spent their gold and silver that they originally had.

Pretty solid reasoning, but I think that you didn't extrapolate from one thing you said - "dedicated merchants might have accumulated quantities of gold and silver to do business with," (and you are correct, they probably would have). But the merchants would also be spending that gold and silver (at least some of it) for more stock. So, merchant buys food for resale from farmer, farmer probably gets some things from merchant that he needs and may very well get some gold and silver also. Farmer has people working for him, probably family, friends, and very possibly some (former) refugees the farmer took in. Farmer is providing food and shelter for everyone (which in T2K is a lot), but these people might need or want some additional items that the farmer can't provide, but that the merchant (or another later merchant) might have, or that the workers could get from someone at the "Trade Market" in town. Now the farmer could hand the workers a busher of whatever is being grown for thm to use to barter, or he could hand them a small amount of silver or gold to buy that extra stuff. So I think that especially by 2000+ if not sooner, gold and silver would be going back out in circulation. At least some. Though there would still be a need for other currency based on some or many of the things mentioned before.

Port Lavaca in Red Star, Lone Star, uses silver backed notes.

Page 17
A barter economy has been replaced by locally printed paper notes backed by silver, which are honored by most merchants within the town or the surrounding camps.

Another big one in the 17th and 18th centuries was molasses, used in rum production. Molasses was a big part of the Triangle Trade system.

And whisky/whiskey in the frontier in the 1780s.

Another area that will affect what players do is what currency is used outside of their own 'home' patch. Every RPG has a standard list of values for everyday items. Verything is valued in gold pieces, or dollars, or credits, but in a post-WWIII or post-apocalypse setting, there could be dozens of different values for the same items. If you want to get into lots of detail, a single currency doesn't cut it. Imagine if your group happily gathers every piece of gold they can, and trades it for what they need, then they travel to another zone. Suddenly their gold is useless and something they'd not even thought about is what the locals want. Different free cities, or regions, may not use gold, or silver, or bottle caps, as currency, or may assign a different value to them. What can be bought for an ounce of gold in Krakow might cost 2 in Ostrava. Five miles further down the road, they might consider gold as just a pretty but fairly useless item, and value everything by weight of tobacco, or litres of 'shine. How the players negotiate values when every few miles someone has a different idea of 'value' can become a major role playing event.

Excellent point, and something I hadn't considered.

I recall in the book "Alas Babylon", honey was used as a 'currency', or at least a valuable trade item and gold and silver jewelry became to be viewed suspiciously because of the possibility they might be radioactive...

Yep. I agree. I have some junk silver stashed away since I'm in the US but if I was in Europe, I'd have gold sovereigns instead.

The Aftermath London adventure has ammo as currency.

Depends on where you are and who you're dealing with.

Spartan117 was asking about trade and I threw together some rules for him to use with V2/V2.2. You'll have to search for the thread though. I start with an item's rarity and then move your chance to acquire it based on its importance to that individual. You must then roll a test of PERSUASION to buy it at the stated price. My basic Task Difficulty Levels are...

Very Common Item = EASY (Skill X 2) test
Common Items = ROUTINE (1.5 X Skill) test
Uncommon Items = AVERAGE (Skill) test
Scarce Items = DIFFICULT (Skill X 0.5) test
Rare Items = FORMIDABLE (Skill X 0.25) test
Extremely Rare/Experimental = IMPOSSIBLE (0.1 X Skill) task

An Outstanding Success (rolling under RAW Skill without Attribute on an Average task) will get you a 10+1D20% Discount.

An Exceptional Success (rolling under HALF your RAW Skill without Attribute on an Average test) will get you a 50% reduction in price.

Rolling OVER your needed score but under your RAW Skill (the 1-10 number) will cost you 10+1D20% more.

Rolling over your entire Asset (your Skill + Attribute) will double the price.


Also, please note that this is just for buying things or doing "horse trading/bartering" during play. FINDING what you need is a roll on your SCROUNGING skill.
I allow anyone with Economics to add a bonus to their roll.