Now that would be interesting
 

Along the lines of JPII visiting various parts of Europe when the balloon goes up....

What if JPII, The Dali Lama, ArchBishop of Cantebury, and others were meeting in Switzerland (Nice, neutral country). Trying to calm everyones nerves. The Balloon goes up. Now the scurry as the various prelates, their security and the Swiss Army all try to secure the safety of these religious leader. Inject a team of Russian Spetznatz to try to decapitate the various religions mentioned. Followed by a team of American Delta, British SAS, and who knows who else to "save the day". Heck even the Mossad might come to the party.

I would think this kind of "keystone cop" scenerio would devolve into a major shoot em up in the middle of Geneva. And Just where ARE the various religious leaders???

Another two cents

Mike

My understanding is that organised religion was heavily suppressed in the USSR. As they were the major partner (only one with any actual power really), I don't see religious leaders being in a position to apply any influence of note on the PACT. They would though hold significant sway on the west in my opinion, sway which while well intended, could interfere with the political preparations required for effective war-making.

Sounds like a set up for an off-color joke.

Seriously, though, it's a really interesting idea and it has a nice edge of plausibility. I wonder what they would do once the the war went nuclear and it became clear that their appeals were falling on deaf ears.

Duck and cover? Or just fall to their knees and pray?

Taking all the religious leaders out in one hit could result in a seriously nasty religious war that would put the Spanish Inquisition, Crusades and all the various Jihad's put together to shame.

What you say is very true. IRL, the USSR tried to become an non-religious country.... However, The Russian Orthodox Church was still alive and well during all of those years. Yes, the leaders I mentioned would have little or no influence on the Kremlin in T2K, the Primate of Moscow had a behind the scean voice that had to be acknowledged.

I do not think that anything JPII or any other religious leader said would interfere with the NATO prep for battle.

(The old joke, from Stalin I think, How many divisions does the Pope have?)

Mike

It wouldn't interfere significantly on the military prep, but it would on the Politicians.
If/when the church was to throw in their two cents, any politician who wanted to stay in government would have to listen and act accordingly. The religious vote is powerful - take the US bible belt for example. What percentage of the population there is going to be listening to the Pope and other religious figures in preference to the politicians and Generals.
Once the ball was rolling though I doubt the church would have a lot of influence, but they'd be major factors in the time leading up to the decision to deploy. They might even have influence over the timeframes and manpower involved in the deployment.

The Bible Belt in the US is mostly Southern Baptist with sizable groups of Methodist and Pentatcostal (I know, my spelling sucks). The large Catholic areas are Louisiana, southern Mississippi, southern Alabama and Florida. This area has several military bases, as well as arsenals and ammunition plants. Its more likely that the area would go for MilGov or CivGov rather than PopeGov...

Meh, whatever, but I'm sure you get my point. Religion (not just the Pope and the Catholic church) has influence to varying degrees all over the world. Might not directly impact on military matters, but it's going to be heavily intertwined in the political (despite what the US consitution may say).

Leg,

I see what you're getting at. I don't see a separate religious government, the Catholic Church doesn't really work that way (any more) except perhaps where there is literally no government at all. Most of the time they would simply support whatever government was in place. Pushing for social or political justice isn't completely foreign to the Church (although that tends to be a lower-level thing) but it's not like they haven't cooperated or supported with military juntas or other corrupt regimes in the past.

Tony

(Remembering the picture in Ogre Miniatures where an Ogre Mk V is wearing the insignia of the Vatican.)

What are the capabilities of the Swiss Guards?

I could see religious/military orders of marshal clergy popping up after the balloon goes up. Some conspiracy theorists see conservative blocs in the RCC like Opus Dei as capable of setting up such a thing. Perhaps you would even have armed factions within the Catholic fold- left-leaning liberation theologist backed groups and right-leaning Opus Dei backed groups. IN-fighting could be a real possibility.

I had one PC in my PbP (Brother Switek played by Snakeyes) who was a former monk turned CIA-backed partisan leader and an NPC, called the Bishop (so named for the chess piece), who was a former Polish Para before joining a monastic order before the war only to later become Gora-Kalwaria's militia commander in '98 or so.

I'm not in any way advocating that there would be any type of religious government. All I am saying is that religion, both individuals and organisations, will apply political pressure on the various governments to act in a certain way.
This pressure will be more or less effective depending on where in the world it's going on - for example, Islam is going to have a MASSIVE input on policy and actions in Iran while Christianity, specifically Roman Catholism will be behind many of the decisions made in Italy. Over in the Far east, Buddism will shape events while up in the backwoods you might find a cult or three exerting influence on the local authorities.

Industry will also have similar clout with some governments - take the various lobby groups in the US for example. Note that just having money might be enough to exert influence in some countries, provided it's spread around and fills a few otherwise empty pockets.

We could get real weird and have the Illuminati revive as an order, determined to preserve knowledge and rebuild civilization -- their image of civilization, of course.

I just had a thought - the 10th Crusade with the Church armed with nukes!

A thousand years later and they're back.
If Christianity can't have the holy land, then nobody will! :rocketwho

Sounds like a really bad movie promo.... :D
Lets get Mel Gibson to play the leading role.

They fulill two roles, they are the bodyguards of the Pope and the ceremonial guard of the Vatican.

They are never seen without the Michaelangelo-designed uniforms and halbreds/swords. But there is a lot of speculation about what is behind the scenes. Some of the requirements is that the Swiss Guard have served in the military, they must be Catholic and they swear an oath directly to the Pope.

During the shooting of the Pope, several Guardsmen were observed with pistols/smgs...

Sort of Mad Max/We were Soldiers meets the Passion...weird and scary!!!

I wonder what kind of firearms they use... Italian, Swiss, or other?

This discussion has been really interesting. There is a lot of food here for a pretty kick-ass module. Let's start with the factions...

The Pope and his loyal circle (including the Swiss guards)
Anti-papal members of the clergy
A shadowy Catholic secret society (Illuminati? Opus Dei? Other?) with unclear motives
Anti-church Italian military (leftists)
Pro-church Italian military
The French (DGSE, FFL commandos)
Soviets (KGB, GRU, Spetznaz)

You could throw in some Austrians, Jugolsavs, U.S. pro-CivGov forces in Jugoslavia... I'm sure there's even more.

Guardsmen are usually catholic german speaking young men from swiss countryside. They have normal swiss military training (conscription). Guardsmen are real soldiers even if they have lots of seremonial guarding duties. They use those fancy uniforms only on seremonial duties (armed with halberd and pepper spray). Yes they do have modern weapons, uniforms and equipment they just wont like to show them.

Life in switzerland is very boring and most people are very conservative. Joining swiss guard can be very vise choice if you dont want live very dull life in swiss farm or if you dont want boring customer service job from the nearest town or city.

You can meet swiss volunteers nearly anywhere in this planet. Swiss army is purely defensive force for defending Switzerland and its impossible to serve abroad.

"We were clergy once, and mad"?

A cross in one hand and grenade launcher in the other, he's "THE CONVERTER"!
Don't let the robes fool you...

:D

i used to have a bunch more links but thay seam to have dispard someware.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/swiss_guard/index.htm


Raellus i once thought about having a militia/proto militant order poop up. The genesis being when the local marauder crew tried there stick on a monastery (and attended refugees and such) were one of the novices was in his previous life a green bary.

The subject of the Vatican and the Swiss Guards has come up before, these threads are worth reading
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?p=10016
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=517
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.php?t=1209

And he's armed with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch!

I had to vote " other " . I'd say he's dead by the year 2000

I think you misunderstand. The question isn't about the location of a specific Pope, the question is about the location of whoever the current Pope is during the Twilight War. As long as there are any cardinals left there will be an election to decide a new Pope after John Paul II dies. Unless you're arguing that following the death of John Paul II no new Pope would be elected? If so I think that is a valid position to take but I'd like to see your reasoning.

If JPII was dead, and it occured during or after the nukes, then it's very likely there could be multiple claimants to the title. It's also possible that the individual claimants and their associated group could be unaware of others in existance.

But if JPII is killed in the fighting, what are the chances you'll get a conclave together in the near future? Especially if the Vatican is destroyed and travel is impossible?

There were still Popes elected even during the worst of times during the Middle Ages. I agree that there may well end up being multiple Popes all vying for legitimacy but I doubt there would be no Pope at all for very long.

I agree with Targan and Leg - Regardless of whether a conclave can be formed or not, there will probably be several people claiming the title of Pope, with varying degrees of legitimacy.

What a world...a world full of popes...

As was alluded to earlier, I suppose it's not that dissimilar to the situation in the US where Civgov and Milgov are both claiming to be the Government. There would probably be countless other "Pretenders" throughout the World claiming various titles, positions, etc.

For example, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more persons in Russia tried to set themselves up as the new Tsar...

Multiple Choice solutions
 

Hello Everyone, long time no talk for me (Too many real life matters to care for). Glad to see that you are still around:).

In my own game I left the Pope in Rome but that's perfectly personnal. Wiith a papal state ruling over Rome, Sardegna and Malta. I like the idea of Switzerland, so.

I can see many place where the pope could reside including Castle Gandolfo, San Marino, France, Malta and (why not) Spain or Portugal.

Something else could be interesting too, then, and that would be a rehearsal of the Middle Ages situation with two Popes. One in Rome (or Italy) and an anti-pope remaining again in Avignon (France) or elsewhere. A schism could be interesting.

Hope that this week and the coming chrystmas will leave me enough time to come back again.

In case, I don't, have some good times for years'end, all of you.:cool:

Mohender,

Glad to hear from you and that you can devote at least a little time to offer your opinion.

I think that a "multiple popes" scenario fits well into T2K. It's sort of how like the Black Madonna (BM) is a powerful instrument to inspire the faithful of Poland for both "good" or "evil". At least in some areas, religion is a real factor in T2K and the pope is therefore an element of political influence.

Instead of oneBM that influences Poland, the pope could wield global influence in the face of weak national governments. Unlike a unique painting, the pope is an office and there could be several of them.

Tony

I think the pope is in the pizza...old SNL joke...:p

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of JPII swallowing a nuke and there being multiple Popes in 2000 scattered about the planet.

Yeah, that is a very plausible scenario.

Targan,

Hey, religion has played a surprisingly important part in many T2K adventures or scenarios. Having multiple popes kind of plays to that!

Tony

This is something I'm still working on... any suggestions for making it better would be nice!

The Military for the Vatican City-State:

With the growing rift between Italy and the rest of NATO that had started in the years leading up to the Sino-Soviet War, the Pope had become more and more concerned over the safety of the Vatican City-State with the upswing of anti-Papal violence (mostly acts of vandalism and muggings). To counter this, he chose to reestablish the volunteer militia formations of the Palatine Guard and the Noble Guard to assist the Pontifical Swiss Guard in their protective and defense duties.

But the formation of the Mediterranean Alliance and subsequent treaties with the USSR & Warsaw Pact, the Pope quietly ordered the reorganization of the two auxiliary forces.

The Noble Guard was reorganized as a professional military force of modern mechanized infantry, while the Palatine Guard remained as a volunteer militia with its personnel being equipped by the Vatican, whom also instituted a formal training regimen. At first the controversial decision of the Pope caused many to question the action, but it had drew attention away from the expansion of the size of the Swiss Guard, and while the Swiss Guard had been expanded the Pope did not allow for any exceptions or changes in recruitment and training personnel.

While this was happening, the Pope was attempting to work behind the scenes to get the Italian government to change course… but when all of his efforts failed he officially declared that the Vatican was going to enter into a state of Armed Neutrality, much like the Swiss Confederation. The Vatican quietly acquired through various front companies several mega-yachts that were quickly turned into floating Pontifical Palaces that were to be used as a mobile Vatican if anything happened to the Holy See itself.

To protect these floating Pontifical Palaces, the Vatican City-State was able to acquire small combat craft that would become the core of the modern Pontifical Navy. Such as the Swedish designed and built Combat Boat 90 to act as escorts. Each of the mega-yachts had the ability for helicopters to land on a reinforced stern flight deck.


The Ranks of the Vatican City-State:
Generalkapitän (Captain-General)
Oberst (Colonel)
Oberstleutnant (Colonel Lieutenant)
Major (Major)
Hauptmann (Captain)
Oberleutnant (Senior Lieutenant)
Leutnant (Lieutenant)
Feldwebel (Sergeant Major)
Wachtmeister (Sergeant)
Korporal (Corporal)
Vizekorporal (Vice Corporal)
Hellebardier (Halbardier)/Gardist (Guardsman)


The Corps of the Pontifical Swiss Guard or Swiss Guard (German: Schweizergarde, Italian: Guardia Svizzera Pontificia, Latin: Pontificia Cohors Helvetica, or Cohors Pedestris Helvetiorum a Sacra Custodia Pontificis) is something of an exception to the Swiss rulings of 1874 and 1927. It is a small force maintained by the Holy See and is responsible for the safety of the Pope, including the security of the Apostolic Palace. It serves as the de facto military of Vatican City.
The history of the Swiss Guards has its origins in the 15th century. Pope Sixtus IV (1471–1484) already made a previous alliance with the Swiss Confederation and built barracks in Via Pellegrino after foreseeing the possibility of recruiting Swiss mercenaries. The pact was renewed by Innocent VIII (1484–1492) in order to use them against the Duke of Milan. Alexander VI (1492–1503) later actually used the Swiss mercenaries during their alliance with the King of France. During the time of the Borgias, however, the Italian Wars began in which the Swiss mercenaries were a fixture in the front lines among the warring factions, sometimes for France and sometimes for the Holy See or the Holy Roman Empire. The mercenaries enlisted when they heard King Charles VIII of France was going to raise a war against Naples. Among the participants in the war against Naples was Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere, the future Pope Julius II (1503–1513), who was well acquainted with the Swiss having been Bishop of Lausanne years earlier. The expedition failed in part thanks to new alliances made by Alexander VI against the French. When Cardinal della Rovere became pope Julius II in 1503, he asked the Swiss Diet to provide him with a constant corps of 200 Swiss mercenaries. In September 1505, the first contingent of 150 soldiers started their march towards Rome, under the command of Kaspar von Silenen, and entered the city on January 22, 1506, today given as the official date of the Guard's foundation. "The Swiss see the sad situation of the Church of God, Mother of Christianity, and realize how grave and dangerous it is that any tyrant, avid for wealth, can assault with impunity, the common Mother of Christianity," declared Huldrych Zwingli, a Swiss Catholic who later became a Protestant reformer. Pope Julius II later granted them the title "Defenders of the Church's freedom".
The force has varied greatly in size over the years and has even been disbanded. Its first, and most significant, hostile engagement was on May 6, 1527 when 147 of the 189 Guards, including their commander, died fighting the troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V in the stand of the Swiss Guard during the Sack of Rome in order to allow Clement VII to escape through the Passetto di Borgo, escorted by the other 40 guards. The last stand battlefield is located on the left side of St Peter's Basilica, close to the Campo Santo Teutonico (German Graveyard).
The Swiss Guard has served the popes since the 16th century. Ceremonially, they shared duties in the Papal household with the Palatine Guard and Noble Guard, both of which were disbanded in 1970 under Paul VI. Today the Papal Swiss Guard have taken over the ceremonial roles of the former units. At the end of 2005, there were 135 members of the Swiss Guard. This number consisted of a Commandant (bearing the rank of oberst or Colonel), a chaplain, three officers, one sergeant major (feldwebel), 30 NCOs, and 99 halberdiers, the rank equivalent to private (so called because of their traditional Halberd).

The Noble Guard (Ital. Guardia Nobile) was one of the guard units of the Vatican. It was formed by Pope Pius VII in 1801 as a regiment of heavy cavalry. Initially, the regiment was tasked with providing escort for the Pope and other senior Princes of the Church, and missions within the Papal States at the behest of the pope. One of their first major duties was to escort Pius VII to Paris for the coronation of Napoleon Bonaparte. With the unification of Italy and the confiscation of the Papal States in 1870, the Noble Guard became a corps of foot guards.
The corps was a volunteer one - its members were not paid for their service, and had to pay for their own equipment. The commander of the corps was called the Captain. One of the subordinate positions within the corps was that of Hereditary Standard-Bearer, who was responsible for carrying the standard of the Catholic Church. The Noble Guard made its appearance in public only when the pope took part in a public function; when the pope withdrew, he was followed by the Noble Guard. During a vacancy of the Holy See, the corps stood at the service of the College of Cardinals.
During the Second World War, the Noble Guard shared responsibility with the Swiss Guard for the personal security of Pope Pius XII. For instance, when the Pope took his daily walk in the Vatican Gardens, two Noble Guardsmen followed at a distance. The guard was abolished by Pope Paul VI in 1970 as part of the reforms of the Church following Vatican II.

The Palatine Guard (Ital. Guardia Palatina d'Onore) was a military unit of the Vatican. It was formed in 1850 by Pope Pius IX, who ordered that the two militia units of the Papal States be amalgamated. The corps was formed as an infantry unit, and took part in watch-keeping in Rome as well as various battles, including the defense of Rome against soldiers from Piedmont. The Second World War was a high point in the history of the Palatine Guard.
In September 1943, when German troops occupied Rome in response to Italy's conclusion of an armistice with the Allies, the Guard was given the responsibility of protecting Vatican City, various Vatican properties in Rome, and the pope's summer villa at Castel Gandolfo. The guardsmen (mainly Roman shop keepers and office clerks) whose service had previously been limited to standing in ranks and presenting arms at ceremonial occasions, now found themselves patrolling the walls, gardens and courtyards of Vatican City and standing post at the entrances to papal buildings around the Eternal City. On more than one occasion this service resulted in violent confrontations with Italian Fascist police units working with the German authorities to arrest political refugees who were hiding in buildings protected by the Vatican. At the outbreak of the Second World War in September 1939 the Palatine Guard mustered some 500 men, but by the liberation of Rome in June 1944 the corps had grown to 2000 men. The corps was abolished in 1970 by Pope Paul VI as part of the reforms of the Church following the Second Vatican Council. Its former members were therefore invited to join a new group called the Saints Peter and Paul Association (Italian: Associazione SS. Pietro e Paolo), whose statutes were approved by the Holy Father on 24 April 1971.

The Corps of Gendarmerie of Vatican City (Ital. Corpo della Gendarmeria dello Stato della CittÃ* del Vaticano) is the gendarmerie, or police and security force, of Vatican City. The corps is responsible for security, public order, border control, traffic control, criminal investigation, and other general police duties in Vatican City. A small number of the corps' officers travel with the pope to provide close-in security for the pontiff. The corps has 130 personnel and is a part of the Security and Civil Defense Services Department (which also includes the Vatican Fire Brigade), an organ of the Governorate of Vatican City State.

The Papal Zouaves (Zuavi Pontifici) were an infantry force formed in defence of the Papal States. The Zuavi Pontifici were mainly young men, unmarried and Roman Catholic, who volunteered to assist Pope Pius IX in his struggle against the Italian Risorgimento. They wore a similar style of uniform to that of the French Zouaves but in grey with red trim. A grey and red kepi was substituted for the North African fez. All orders were given in French and the unit was commanded by a Swiss Colonel, M. Allet.
Nonetheless, the regiment was truly international, and by May 1868 numbered 4,592 men. At that time the unit was composed of 1,910 Dutch, 1,301 French, 686 Belgians, 157 Romans and Pontifical subjects, 135 Canadians, 101 Irish, 87 Prussians, 50 English, 32 Spaniards, 22 Germans from beyond Prussia, 19 Swiss, 14 Americans, 14 Neapolitans, 12 Modenese, 12 Poles, 10 Scots, 7 Austrians, 6 Portuguese, 6 Tuscans, three Maltese, two Russians and one volunteer each from the South Sea Islands, India, "Africa", Mexico, Peru and Circassia.
A British volunteer, Joseph Powell, noted in his account of his service with the Papal Zouaves, Two Years in the Pontifical Zouaves that at least three "blacks" (doubtless Africans) and one person from China served in the Zouaves.
Between February 1868 and September 1870 the number of Canadian volunteers, mainly from the francophone and Catholic province of Quebec, rose to seven contingents numbering some 500 men in total - with a contingent of 114 turning back to Canada because news had reached them of the surrender of the Papal States in September 1870.

I'll bet the Pope spent at least some time here:
http://www.comune.castelgandolfo.rm....Imc=14&IdSec=2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castel_gandolfo

This is the Pope's summer residence, in the Alban Hills, and also home of the Vatican Observatory, and its astronomy library. If you believe the Da Vinci code, this is where a lot of the secret books are.

Oh. this is nice. Definitely one of the places that he'd need to set up a method of protecting the place!