I think it might be fun to create T2K characters with the Mongoose Traveller system. On the other hand, if you're shooting for a particular type of character, it might be very frustrating. In particular, it might be a lot harder to roll up SF-type characters. IMHO, that might not be such a bad thing.

I don't think the Traveller combat system is going to work very well for T2K.

I wish there could be a hybrid- The original T2K timeline (v1.0, of course); the T2013 Relfex combat system (with some slight mods), and the Traveller char-gen system.

Eddie,

As a point of fact, we may be coming from different points of view when it comes to education, as I can only say what I know locally (Vancouver BC). I've run post-apoc RPGs that use a Cold War background (WWIII involving the Soviet Union; in this case, The Morrow Project). The younger players (who are also not hardcore gamers) in their teens and twenties had learned about it school and were interested in the same way presumably we were about historical conflicts and periods we didn't live through, either. I mean, I was never around for WWII nor to any great extent the American-Vietnamese war but that didn't compromise my enjoyment RPGs and wargames based on these themes!

Agreed, if we don't like it, we can always draw the line to exclude any fact or comparison that doesn't fit our preferences. At this point, I think we're certainly agreeing to disagree. :cool:


Tony

Rae,

You and me both, obviously.

I'll have a look at M:T Mercenary when I can, see if the character generation allows for more flexibility. Presumably any T2K sourcebooks might add detail as well. A 2d6-based system seems to conform to a gaming industry belief that simplicity and ease of play are paramount, a view that has a lot to recommend it even if I don't personally agree.

Tony

I've had more than my share of spats with people like Leg and others on here for slights or perceived slights to my country, and God knows I'm proud to be an American; but I absolutely despise our public education system. I was lucky and overcame the hurdle, but since my three kids got into school, I've been nothing but disappointed. I know Webstral is a teacher, and I hope he does his best to fight the system, but I firmly believe it's broken in this nation. I give kudos to nations that have broken the code and managed to actually educate their people.

Morrow is kind of a special case though. Just the premise of cryogenic stasis in the boltholes lends a certain fantastical aspect to it that appeals across a broad range. Big fan of Morrow here...

Please bear in mind that this has progressed past "I'm proving my point, I'm countering your point" and has gone into simple conversation that presumably could move to PM and no interest. However, the fact that we're discussing the post-apoc/Cold War/gaming industry, I feel warrants staying open in this thread.

That said, they did turn me off from many of those games. Granted, some GMs really ran great games, but being locked into historical certainties of knowing what really happened or what was going to happen if the game didn't diverge from reality really irked me. That's part of why I like futuristic/post-apoc games so much, I think. It's not written and there isn't a historical fact-check book to bounce my adventures off of. I've never been accused of following the mainstream in any of my hobbies though...

I didn't even know CoD: Black Ops was set in the Cold War until I actually installed it and started playing through the first single-player scenario. I actually found it kind of confusing and thought it might be some trippy time-travel/flashback hoax, like an old episode of Mission:Impossible.

What that "proves" to me is not so much that there is some huge untapped market for Cold War era pen & paper tabletop roleplaying games as it does that they could have set the latest game in the CoD franchise during the War of 1812 and it still would have sold a million copies. I don't think any other causal linkage has been established.

I really do think that if the part of the RPG industry can be called mainstream as a whole thought there was some unfilled cold-war-gone-hot-whoops-gritty-simulationist-apocalypse niche to be exploited they'd be filling it.

With d20.

All water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned. As for you being an American, well we all have our crosses to bear*... :cool:

* If anyone reads that as other than tongue in cheek, then they seriously need to grow a sense of humour!

I knew they were trying for the "Classic" feel, but it sounds like I should just dig out my little black books again instead of looking at the core. That is if (I mean when, honest) they actually get it out in 2011 or so.

I'm going to cross my fingers on this.

Did they keep the hard-core survival role in each term? I remember going seven terms in the scouts, getting a mandatory re-enlistment, and dieing in the eighth.

Eddie,

I wish to make clear, I can't speak for the Canadian educational system in general, and for all I know the players in my group may be a statistical blip!

As for the comparison between T2K and TMP, if I may quote Reagan, "there you go again!" (I don't mean that as a slam, but more in the sense that it's not often I can quote Ronald Reagan and I feel I must do so when relevant... I MUST!). I somewhat agree with your point about the fantastical elements, but as my campaign was based on Final Watch the Cold War-esque elements were in full force.

Hey, a "classic" T2K background isn't going to attract everyone. V2+ seemed to get around this problem of historicity (that is, how it's placed within the stream of history) by making it counterfactual. This maintains the existential horror of the Cold War by making the setting part of an alternative timeline. To some players, the knowledge that the Cold War is over might impair their suspension of disbelief, but then re-imagining a global conventional/nuclear war (a classic Cold War trope) is also difficult for some people to credit, not to mention introducing a generic nature to the background.

I'm reminded of a friend who could never get into Call of Cthulhu. Having read Lovecraft, his knowledge of the bigger picture (humanity was essentially doomed) meant he couldn't really enjoy any adventure because it was ultimately hopeless. While probably true within the context of the Cthulhu Mythos, the key to enjoyment would seem to be to "forget" the overall historical/global picture and concentrate on what your character can accomplish, within the bounds of the scenario.

I guess the elephant in the room in this discussion is there was an RPG that tried to update T2K to something more modern. While it succeeded on some levels I sincerely hope any additional kicks at that can (by Mongoose or anyone) will do a lot better.

Tony

Snake Eyes,

Hey, the Cold War background didn't make you pitch it across the room, did it? That's presumably the same for anyone that played the single-player campaign.

I fully admit that I'm setting the bar as low as I can get away with. I'll take a "lack of disgust" as proof-positive! :D

As recent history has conclusively proven, the invisible hand of the market isn't perfect! Tastes can change over time; themes can get played out, what are once considered narrow niches can become widely popular (in fact, this can be cyclical). If professional game designers and the individuals who run the companies that make RPGs sincerely believe something isn't profitable they simply won't waste what little time or resources they have in exploring blind avenues. (I don't mean to imply there's some kind of evil cartel or conspiracy to suppress Cold War games, merely that if no one tries then we'll never know.)

In fact, sometimes the players themselves don't know what they want. SPI almost produced historical wargames because of the feedback from their players indicated what they wanted, and nothing more. Someone faked or massaged player feedback (which was solicited on a regular basis) to get the green light for the "Star Force: Alpha Centauri" wargame and it turned out to be wildly successful and basically ushered in hard science fiction wargaming.

That said, there are recent RPGs that make use of Cold War themed games out there (GURPS: SEALs in Vietnam, the RPGs "Cold City" and "Hot War" to name a few off the top of my head) so it's not been completely neglected. For that matter, Decision Games (the sort-of successor to SPI) has published a line of games using the Cold War Battles system: Wurzburg Pentomic, the NATO intervention scenario in Hungary '56 (both hypothetical WWIII-based scenarios) and Kabul '79/Angola '87. (Cold War Battles seem to be related to the SPI Modern Battle series of the '70s.) They also recently produced GSFG, an update and homage to "NATO: Operational Combat in Europe in the 1970's".

Tony

Wow. As someone who's taken offense at digs against the U.S. military made on this forum, I'm surprised to see you taking pot shots at another honorable and patriotic but often misunderstood and sometimes thankless profession. The system aint all that great, but most of us do the best with what we're given. In my experience, the issue is not so much with the public education system as it is with parents and the media teaching kids that they don't have to take responsibility for their own futures. Hey, who needs to try to get a good education when they can become a rapper or reality TV "personality"? We're all victims, anyway, right? The hardest part of my job is trying to teach kids who don't want to learn. They expect to be entertained more than educated. I do my best but I'm no Youtube. Public education is a convenient scapegoat for the nation's ills. Why blame absentee parents and a souless entertainment industry when we've got public school teachers to kick around? Open fire.

Regarding Mongoose Traveller's Book 1: Mercenary:

There is a "Survival" roll, but it's more like the "you must leave the service". You can still continue, but in another career.

I agree with Raellus in that SF characters are so common as to make their "special" nature almost commonplace. Still, in Mercenary there are careers loosely based on the classic Mercenary tickets: "Cadre, Commando, Guerrilla, Security, Striker and Warmonger". "Commando" would naturally work for special ops PCs, but pretty much most of the rest would apply with some imagination.

The combat rules seem to add some nice chrome, although the weapons by their nature are generic, of course.

Tony

I still think you could do the Cold War feel with the creation of an Alternate Timeline that continues the Cold War into the 21st Century... The biggest way to have done that is have the USSR and it's satellite states doing what the Chinese Communists have done with their 'State Controlled Capitalism' (ie 'national' socialism)...

Having someone replace Gorby (ie Danilov) who has the appearence of a hardliner, but in reality is the reformer.. who turns Eastern Europe into a rapidly growing economic powerhouse. The USSR had more resources than the USA has, and SHOULD HAVE been able to overcome us... but it was the mismanagement of those resources that saw their downfall.

The PRC saw this, and has been doing everything they can to NOT repeat those mistakes. And as we are seeing now, they are becoming a major economic & political powerhouse.

Just think of what the Cold War could have turned into if the USSR did that instead. They honestly believed that SDI was a real project and not just something that the Reagan Administration wanted to use as a GOAL to inspire the US... just like JFK did with his famous "put a man on the moon" speech.

It was this that caused Gorby to blink... But what IF someone like Danilov came to power, and saw it for what it was. Something to aspire too, and used that to do a major overhaul of the Soviet Bloc... and overhaul like what the PRC has done.

Thus allowing the Cold War to continue on... and then we have the cold war slowly going HOT in the year 2000 with the growth of Islamic fundamentalism (ie the west having originally had used it against the Soviets in Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics) into a threat than anyone could have ever thought possible (but we in our world know to be true).

And these Islamic fundamentalists are the ones who triggered the Cold War going hot... Be it with terrorist attacks like 11 September 2001, or something as benign as triggering a border dispute between the PRC and USSR.

Thus you can keep the "Twilight: 2000" title for the game, and use the thoughts of importing OUR world into their world... having parallel development of technology (or even an acceleration of technology showing up sooner) allowing for a wide deal of things as well.

Having a slow build-up for the HOT War... allows for the war to become more pronounced and a truly GLOBAL war. And has the bonus of having the major powers being played by the Terrorists.

Something that many of the more popular techno-thriller novels of today are using, and might be a way that the game could use to get new blood into it!

Yuck. Phew. Pfft.

Those are some yucky words you're putting in my mouth, Rae.

Before I go any further, I just want to go on record as stating that my wife and I are not absentee parents. My wife drives my oldest son to school every day so he can go to tutoring early morning and then gets tutoring in the evening. She or I sit with our 8-year-old daughter and help her with her homework every day. My middle child is pretty smart and we never have any troubles with him. We maintain close contact with all of their teachers and my wife goes so far as to sit and make them do any assignment that they "forget about" and turn it in for even a marginal grade. I've gone so far as to shadow my son throughout the day to make sure that he wasn't goofing off and not doing his homework. So yeah, I have a right to talk about the system. Nevermind the fact that I pay my taxes which gives me a right.

I didn't say anything about teachers. I said the system is screwed. Funding priorities in the government are all kinds of messed up. Fuel costs are mandating that districts are charging bus fees. How many school systems are going bankrupt? How poorly are teachers paid? How many school districts have furlough Fridays (or the like)? I said that I know that Web is a teacher and that I hope he fights the system. I meant in the respect that he does the best he can. Not that he's lazy and not doing anything. But I don't know the man. Maybe he is. Maybe you are. But I DID NOT SAY THAT.

Contrary to what you and about five other core members of this board think, I'm not always out to say that you guys suck, my shit doesn't stink, and you are all retarded for not liking 2013. You guys don't like me? That's fine. Don't assume that I'm just trying to argue and accuse everyone else of everything.

You guys have a nice night.

Wait, aren't you the same guy that gets incensed when anyone mentions anything negative about anything regarding or related to U.S. army "officers"? I don't recall anyone ever mentioned you personally, but you seem to take great offense anyway. Now you're using the cop out of saying that you were slagging the education "system" and not me personally so I shouldn't be upset. I didn't call you an absentee parent did I? You seem to be taking my comments to say that. That's putting words in my mouth. Why are you the only one who can take pride in his profession and get upset when people throw stones? Must be because I don't like the T2013 timeline.

That's called hypocricy.

You have a nice night.

Eddie you sound like how things are with my nephew when it comes to helping your children. My sister and brother-in-law does the same thing..

The biggest problem with our education system has been the teachers unions. I know that sounds like talking points, but it's not. To many bad teachers are allowed to stay in the classrooms because they are tenured.

Yes, absentee parents are a problem. and that comes from the fact we have become such a materialistic society that it takes two (or more) income households to 'buy all of the crap' that they think they need. This not only has the problem of there not being a parent in the home when kids get home to help them with their homework (or just MAKE them do the homework), many times those two incomes are being brought in by ONE parent... and that's usually a single mother.

WHY?

Because our society has made marriage just as disposable as diapers. Look at how things are in England.. fathers don't have any rights. it's easy to end a marriage, and yes.. i know this from first hand experience. My wife is British, and took my sons to the UK when she abandoned me after the wreck. She's been shacked up with some guy since then and has a child by him, and we are still legally married. She's living on the dole there, getting all kinds of money from the government.

We don't have that here in the states YET... and in all honesty, i hope that the UK will change that. Because they don't have the money for that kind of crap anymore. But we are seeing how that's going over... all over the European Union we are seeing the nanny state countries collapsing because they don't have the money anymore, and to many of the "Dolists" are too self-centred to see that the free-ride they've gotten has to end because the saying of "there is no such thing as a free lunch" is way to true. Because someone has to pay for that lunch, and when you end up "Robbing Peter to Pay Paul"... Peter will one day get so tired of that, he's going to LEAVE.

I'm not saying that we don't need a safety net, but turning it into a hammock is just to screwed up.

While I didn't like the background of T2013, i've never complained about you and find you to be one of my favorite people to talk with and read on here.

Nate,

Hey, this is awesome! I've thought along these lines, that the Soviets might have taken a page from the Chinese and introduced economic reforms without loosening the CPSU's grip on power. (I assume this happened to a degree in T2K anyways to explain the USSR's longevity.) Increased economic engagement with western Europe could lead to the fragmentation of the NATO alliance, as in T2K.

Some further changes might include a still-separate East Germany, whereupon West Germany has the resources to field the G11 and LMG11. If a non-nuclear or less-nuclear scenario is desired, then Gorbachev may well have accepted Reagan's offer of complete nuclear disarmament at Reykjavik, thus leading to smaller arsenals when war does break out (less time to rearm).

Tony

What's the average reading grade level of an American, Rae? How do we rank internationally? How do we rank on standardized tests?

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/11/...0221227104776/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120400730.html

Those are just two quick searches.

I'm not trying to make cheap shots. I'm not trying to make this personal between you and me. If you want to, we can go to PM and waste our time.

An outstanding idea, and best yet if you did want to use current RL history you could easily say that the party returned to power. I recall reading that to this day there is still amazingly enough a sort of fondness for the "good old days" amongst russians.

Actually Tony... it was Gorby who volunteered total nuclear disarmament, but ONLY if the US abandoned SDI. And as much as Reagan hated Nuclear weapons... he didn't want to abandon the idea of SDI because to many OTHERS in the world had gotten the nuclear bomb genie to visit them.

I've always thought of a separate DDR & Poland having been a very important part of the growing economic powerhouse behind the Iron Curtain. While DDR might be slow at implementing the economic reforms (and their leadership would have helped depose Gorby so someone like Danilov to take over)...

Having a much more limited Nuclear exchange would be perfect for a good gaming universe.... a cross between Twilight 2000 and Merc 2000 setting would be alot of fun, and have civilian as well as military role-playing opportunities to shake a stick at. I've been reading Brad Thor novels, and they've got some really interesting plot ideas (i had read The Athena project in 24 hours and the technology stuff in there was very... interesting).

The system is broken. I can't deny that. Let's slash some more of its funding and see if that helps. All I can do is keep busting my ass to try to help my students learn something while they're in my classroom. If I work hard enough, maybe our nation's standardized test score will go up a little and my pay won't be cut again this year. I should be thankful I haven't been permanently RIF'ed yet. Thanks for the morale boost, Ed.

This approach is exactly how I'd like to see a new version of T2K come out. Leave the time at the year 2000 just tweak the game materials to include some IRL events.
One thing that I personally think is becoming more and more of a problem as time rolls on is the "retrofitting" of technology into the classic T2K timeline. How many times have we seen items only available in the 21st century being trotted out by players in a game?
I mean feel free to pull in whatever you want in a game set in say 2010, but items not even thought of until 2000+ in classic T2K? :confused:

And TEACHER'S pay shouldn't be cut. It's the pay of the administrators and Union Bosses who are taking all the funding AWAY from class rooms... all the while claiming to be getting more funding for those classrooms.

They cut the pay or fire the teachers doing the jobs they are suppose to do, while they are living the fat life.

Like you said.. the system is broken. And that's what Eddie had said. Not that individual teachers are the problem. It's the teachers unions and Education Departments MISMANAGEMENT that is the problem.

Look at my post up a few, about how the USSR SHOULD have been one of the most prosperous countries in history thanks to the massive amounts of resources at their fingertips. But proper management of resources can make even someone who is skint live like a king within their means, but improper management can turn a king into a pauper.

If we extend the timeline past 2000, there are a lot of things we have now that would have still be developed. Having the slow build up of a hot war starting in the year 2000, would definitely work... and allow new blood to want to get involved in the game because it's all new take on the Cold War.

Think of our world right now if the Cold War had continued in the manner we've been discussing here. Think of what we would have today if the Cold War was still going on. Yes we'd still be posed at the swordpoint with the Soviets with alot of the same technology we have right now. hell, we might have been able to develop that technology earlier.

A lot of the criticisms posted here are valid. But it's hard to hear. I take pride in my work and it's tough to detach myself as an individual from the institution of which I am a part. It's a really hard job. Have you ever tried to motivate, inspire, and educate 150 15-18 year-olds on a daily basis? It's rough sometimes. It can feel like a thankless job when I see my paycheck shrink on an annual basis while the public pins most of American society's on my employer. If only they knew what it was like...

Nate,

By gosh, I never knew that! Apparently it was complicated; the Soviets first proposed eliminating INF weapons systems in Europe and reducing Strategic missiles by 50%, the US countered with all ballistic missiles eliminated within 10 years but retaining SDI (and sharing research), the counter-counter offer was no out-of-lab SDI research within those 10 years, and there things fell apart due to slight miscalculations on both sides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk_Summit

Either way, both sides at that time seemed to accept in principle almost complete disarmament and it could have happened. In fact, such a concession could have eventually cost Gorbachev his job before he let the Iron Curtain drop, or at least tied his hands so that (say) he didn't have the latitude to let the Soviet client states go their own ways.

Regarding current technology and T2K, it mainly takes some spine on the part of the GM to make sure things are Jake and consistant. Much of what we use now was available in embryonic form in the 90's and the buildup to war would have accelerated weapons technology considerably. Most of the time the difference would be in advanced information technology and networking (not generally an issue due to battlefield attrition and EMP) and weapons/vehicles, mainly an issue of numbers. (What is generally reflected on Paul's site.)

Tony

Teachers should be be highly-paid -- at least four to five times what they are paid now, if not more. Their job is hard, our educational system sucks, and we'd attract more and better teachers if they were paid in accordance to the difficulties of their job. And in accordance to the importance of their job.

Very true. What I'm getting at is the apparently growing habit of pulling what is available now back to a game (versions 1.0 and 2.x) set almost a generation ago*. It's a bit like trying to justify M-48 tanks being involved in D-Day....

*That makes me feel soooo old!

Yes... I have. I REALLY wanted to be a history and art teacher. I have helped motivate and inspire kids to actually look things up when i start talking about the founding of this Republic. yes it does feel like a thankless job. but you also hold the future in your hands when you are teaching those children. Some teachers take that HONOR and trust so seriously as you do, but there are alot of teachers who don't. Who are simply bad teachers, who should have NEVER been given teaching certification. You know that better than we do, because you've had to work with some of them.

Hell, most of us only have knowledge of this from either being parents or having sat in a classroom. And most of us on this forum haven't been in a classroom in 20+ years. I've been going to college and discovered that most of the recent graduates are so.... behind it's not even funny.

They don't know HALF of what we did when we graduated. And it's only been 20 years since i graduated. they aren't even getting civics lessons in class, just indoctrination into 'nanny state' is good and Republicans/Conservatives are all racists who want you to die (yes i can say this because my youngest sister had to put up with a teacher trying to push that on her when she was in school).

We're not attacking YOU or your profession... we're attacking those who have ABUSED their positions, and made your job such the thankless and hard job it's become.

Sure is. Sometimes more so than when I was in the infantry.

Thanks not what I'm talking about. :)

I'm talking about a new game with a slower build up to the nuclear exchanges and game time occurring. Bascily have the Sino-Soviet border war slowly build up to the DDR finding their best troops being used as cannon fodder by the soviet war machine and deciding they want out (along with several other of the satellite states)... have the build up of the war simmer and build up.. a limited nuclear exchange that doesn't knock everyone back to the stone age, but the war is continuing with everyone having to deal with the EMP effects (admit it... EMP with today's tech would really FUCK everything up) as well as protecting the nation form outside forces.

but having the war hit EVERY part of the Globe (including our Aussie and Kiwi friends) is what i'm talking about.

Exactly... that would allow alot of things to get into. Having that slow build-up with alot of simmering brushfires all around the world all flaring up during the time the campaign setting would start.

My idea for an RP (World War IV: A World in Flames) allowed for Role-play during the Flashpoints period (right before the war starts), during the Brushfires period (alot of little conflicts and low intensity wars all around the globe) to Firestorm period (the entire world is involved in a massive multifront war were some fronts you're fighting against someone, but in another your fighting along side them).

I like your phased approach, Nate.

In addition to something like that, I'd like to see the next T2K itteration come with more or less generic templates for various apocalyptic event horizons. There'd be one for a global pandemic of sort (reducing the population dramatically but leaving infrastructure largely untouched), one for global climate change (food and water shortages, rising see levels, etc.), one for something that would destroy most electronics (EMP, solar flares), and one for your good old fashioned global thermonuclear war. Hell, you could even throw in an alien invasion or zombie rising. I'm thinking of a tool kit for the creative GM to use in fashioning a near future of his liking. Of course, exhaustive current/near future gear lists are a must as well.

You bet. and there was a really good RP that took that approach called "Freedom Fighters"... it allowed the GM and players build their own world. :)

Wow, that's really spooky. I was just getting ready to post that in a future revision of the Twilight franchise I wouldn't include a timeline at all, rather a comprehensive pile of resources for a GM to roll-your-own apocalypse with rules and tips for including nukes, pandemic/zombies, asteroid/comet strike, new ice age, economic collapse or a Chinese menu to incorporate elements of all of them. But I hit the back button instead of preview and there your post was.

Seriously, I ask not only since timeline angst is a recurring centerpoint of conversation around here but also because I played OG 1st ed/ Twilight for years before I ever bothered reading Countdown to Armageddon. It was an entertaining read but not particularly germane to the core concept of "You're soldiers caught behind the lines of a nuclear war." All that stuff with Italy pulling out of NATO is interesting but it just ... didn't ... matter. Deep background, yeah. But it had nothing to do with why the characters were in Poland or solving the immediate problem of whether and how to get out of it. The 2.0/2.2 updates were just as entertaining and ultimately just as irrelevant to actual gameplay.

I understand players want to be able to integrate their characters into the story and the GM needs to know what's what but folks make it sound like opting not to include a detailed orbat and accounting for the month-by-month disposition of every brigade in the global arsenal is some kind of failure. And yeah, I want my guy to be a part of the story, but I can make him a farmboy from Iowa without having to pull out an almanac to research the average rainfall, mean low temperature and consumer price index in order to determine whether his parents could have plausibly produced the crop yield required to afford any siblings.

It's mainly important to the GM rather than the players. Just think how different it would be if France and Italy remained in Nato and fought alongside the Germans, Americans, British and others during 1996-97? Just think what the addition of another couple of armies on the western side would have allowed Nato to do to the Pact....
Given those additional forces I think it's safe to say there would be no reason for anyone to be in Poland. The world might in fact be a glowing cinder as the Soviets opened up with everything they had rather than limited strikes, just in an effort to survive - victory against those odds would have been extremely unlikely.

Remember, nothing happens in isolation. Change something in one place and the ripples will be felt halfway across the world.

As another example, what if India and Pakistan didn't go to war? What if they sided with the Soviets? How would that alter deployments in the middle east?

Understanding the background is vital to running a believable world.

I have a few thoughts here, so bear with me as I wander from topic to topic...

Tegyrius (Clayton) and Eddie are both correct when they say that the Cold War setting isn't much of a drawcard for many gamers these days. Okay, I'm not doing market research on it or anything but I'm involved with RPGs, console games & computer games and participating in a few blogs/forums that deal with all three of them and with a range of participant ages. I base my statements on the comments made by people in those forums and some of them are not big thinkers (when you have 20-yr olds thinking that if the apocalypse comes then they should stockpile bottlecaps because obviously that will be useful as a form of money...)

The games that are produced by people with big budgets obviously will get more fans and those companies tend to focus on fantasy or horror genres so the big RPGs these days are obviously fantasy or horror, military sims are still a niche market just like post-apoc games are.
The military and post-apoc genres don't sell RPGs as well as fantasy does even when they do have a big budget. It doesn't matter how good your game might be, the market for those types of games is too small for most big publishers to bother with these days.

While a Cold War setting is an interesting aside for some console/computer gamers, it's largely irrelevant to their game play - most of them just want to "blow shit up". When it comes to console games, there is a very strong tendency to choose old (as in a generation past or more) enemies because they aren't seen as potentially offensive or politically incorrect - hence why many games feature Nazis, easy to hate so therefore nobody will object to the game player destroying them in the hundreds.
It's the same reason why zombies feature in so many movies this decade, they're a faceless enemy and thereby
1. avoid the labels the media uses to demonize any current enemy we may have and
2. avoids offending anyone from the relevant group if the game treats them in a derogatory manner. We've all heard someone somewhere say that because the terrorists are Muslim, then all Muslims are terrorists - which is a patently absurd statement for many reasons but the "little thinkers" like their sound bites.

What does all that really mean? That console games are driven by the 'best formula' for making money, money gets put into flashy graphics and sexy guns because they draw the crowd - offend nobody but appeal to everybody. If they made Twilight: 2000 as a computer game these days, they'd remove everything that makes the RPG interesting and it would be just the same as every other 'shooter' military game out there because of that mentality.
Story telling is an aside in most console & computer games because at the end of the day "BOOM - headshot" is more interesting for many players than the actual background (except in the most general terms). You won't appeal to many younger gamers unless you can draw them in with something that appears relevant to their idea of entertainment as it is today.

As for education, it is the cure to many ills but most corporations don't like people being too well educated because then they might make an informed choice instead of just buying the crap that the corps want to sell you. Governments avoid education for exactly the same reason but in the sense that they don't want people making an informed vote.

And finally my waffling comes to end...
It sounds to me that some of you are talking about Aftermath... build your own end of the world and then play through the ruins. :p :D
Ultimately, a remake of Twilight: 2000 is not going to be commercially successful, not because the Cold War will or won't sell but because the game itself is based in the two genres that are just not big sellers with today's audience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see where you're going but I read all of that and all I can muster is "Who cares?" Though I guess it might more correctly be, "So what?" - since so many of you obviously care.

I think folks confuse background with setting. Setting is where you are. Background is the universe of events that had to transpire before you got there. Setting is of paramount importance. Background is not. Players need a detailed setting in order to understand their situation and gauge its gravity. Beyond a little immediate local history, they don't really need much in the way of background at all in order to play (and enjoy) a game. I contest the same is true of the GM, especially in that he needs to be focused on looking forward, not back.

I mean not to diminish your cogent analysis or geopolitical acumen, but it seems I may be tilting at a windmill and this is clearly a case where I expect to remain the sole voice of dissent.

Snake Eyes,

Don't worry, we still like you anyways!

Ride on into the sunset, lonely yet noble cowboy...


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lj6qOBNMJs...632_cowboy.jpg

(My wife's response to this post was, "you're an ass!")


Tony

I think she may be the one person on the planet who truly knows you! :p