Fort Knox
 

I'm inclined to agree with helbent4 on the subject of Fort Knox. I think as soon as the first tactical nukes start flying around in Europe a great many Governments around the World are going to kick in various contingency plans, and I'd expect that in the case of the US that would include moving gold reserves out of Fort Knox as a precautionary measure.

I don't dispute that it will be a difficult task, although if it takes place in the summer of 1997 vehicles and fuel shouldn't be a problem - I think the problem would be doing it so that as few people as possible actually know where the gold is going (and I wouldn't for one moment think that it would all be going to the same place - I'd expect it to go to a number of different locations).

Iirc the 194th Armoured Brigade is stationed at Fort Knox during the opening part of the War, so perhaps they'd be responsible for the movement / security of the gold?

Trying to recover some of that gold in 2000 could be an interesting adventure for US based characters in the style of Allegeheny Uprising.

(btw I haven't read Armies of the Night for years but recall that gold is central to the plot, so apologies if the above - or a variation thereof - is already covered there)

Have to also say that I can't really buy into the idea of a US Military officer (or Government official) being prepared to trade nuclear technology for some counter insurgency aircraft...that seems a somewhat one sided trade to me, although that's just my opinion, others will no doubt vary...

In Armies of the Night, the gold that is being evaced is from the New York banks.

Other major sites for gold storage is San Francisco and Denver...

It appears that Ft Knox was not nuked with anything of significant size (Howling Wilderness), but it's unlikely anyone would know for sure it would be spared prior to the exchanges.
It's also fairly likely I think that such a high value facility would be tough enough to withstand a strike nearby (direct hit no so much). In my mind shifting the gold prior to nukes being thrown about creates more problems than it solves.

Leg,

I think you're too wrapped up in the intricacies of modern trade and banking.

This is more like a drug deal or a black market arms deal (which is literally true). All any trade requires is two parties that have something the other wants. Illegitimate deals like this by definition do not rely on legitimate and conventional means of verification, fiduciary responsibility and due diligence. It's a black market deal. With some experts to verify the materials under consideration, maybe third parties that can vouch for either parties legitimacy, and a deal is done.

Tony

R6,

If you think the civilian government by definition is a bunch of corrupt and lying bunch of scumbags, then it's possible. Or from the opposite perspective the military has already crossed serious lines by launching what amounts to an unsuccessful coup d'etat and remaining in open revolt. Members of either faction could easily be unscrupulous to subvert controls on nuclear technology.

People have sold or leaked these secrets before for money or even idealism, even in peacetime. In this case, some kind of airpower in exchange for a 1-shot weapon you may not even be able to deliver might seem like a great deal!

For that matter, control is going to break down under the circumstances. It could be a classic "rogue element" acting completely on their own and opportunistically.

Tony

I was watching the Military Channel the other day while enjoying a tea party thrown by my daughter...they were talking about the F-100 and mentioned a few facts that I think are forgotten when people start talking about bringing boneyard aircraft back into service.

When the F-100 left service in 1979, the surviving airframes were taken to the boneyards, the average airframe had well over 5,000 hours on it and was considered to be worn out. The best of these aircraft were selected for the various foreign military aid programs and ended their lives overseas. What was left in the boneyards were the oldest, most worn out airframes...

So if the boneyards are storing mostly worn out aircraft, little better then fodder for a smelter somewhere, just how much could be recovered from a boneyard and restored to flying condition?

The impression that I am getting following several internet runs is, not much of a chance. The real number depends on how recently the aircraft was removed from service, and how much foreign intrest there is in purchasing it.

I still don't buy it. Sure, it is POSSIBLE that MilGov or CivGov managed to purchase and ship to the CONUS some prop driven ground attack aircraft from another continent after the TDM, just incredibly UNLIKELY. If your heart is set on having this scenario occur in your T2K campaign then go right ahead. Its your campaign. But I've read every post in this thread and I'm far from convinced enough to have such a scenario occur in any of my campaigns. Individual tastes vary of course.

Of course I'm focusing on modern trade. Even the drug runners would be effected by the EMP and general destruction - those offshore bank accounts holding all their money will be wiped out, just like government records.
The modern world would be completely crippled by the loss of the electronic financial system. Money today, even 20+ years ago, is more data than hard currency, precious metals, minerals, etc. Lose that data or the ability to access and/or verify it, and you wipe out 99% of all modern wealth (it can be rebuilt to some degree using backups and hard copies, but it's not likely to occur for a decade or so given the chaos of T2K).

Any deals, provided a suitable entity can be found to negotiate and enact them (Civgov, Milgov, UBF, NA, Scientologists, whatever), will take much longer to work out than today - communications are virtually gone so it would require somebody(s) with authority (and proof of that authority) to actually travel halfway around the world, find another suitably qualified party to talk to (whoever has the desired goods and the will/power to trade them), come to an agreement and then deliver the goods/payment. If you're talking aircraft or other very high value goods, then it's unlikely the payment would be immediately to hand - to risky to carry around before a deal is done. Chances are the goods themselves may not be immediately ready for delivery/collection either...

Getting back to the Pucara's there doesn't appear to have been any great need for the second rate aircraft prior to the November 1997 strategic exchanges. Given that the US government didn't fall apart until mid 1998, it's extremely unlikely anyone would have had access to what little wealth was left, especially the essentially loyal military who may, or may not have been interested in purchasing them (I really doubt they would have because it would add another machine to service from the already stretched logistic tail). Between November 1997 and June 1998 (when the government effectively ceased to exist), it's very likely the US government (and most others for that matter) would be squarely focused on civil disaster relief - the overseas military would be forced to fend for itself and fall back on whatever stockpiles remained and a trickle of supplies from home (mainly weapons and ammo as food, medicine, etc would be greatly needed at home). International trade negotiations would be waaaaaay down the list of priorities.

Post June 1998 there are two separate US governments, both with claims to legitimacy as well as serious flaws to their claims. It's very unlikely foreign countries (what's left of them) would be rushing to either party to do a deal - my guess is that it wouldn't be until at least 1999 before anyone felt comfortable in talking about anything significant.

Leg, you could be right about moving the gold causing more problems than it would solve, I'm just not sure.

If we agree that the worldwide banking system and stock exchanges would likely be down the toilet for years to come, the gold at Fort Knox potentially takes on huge importance - as you said yourself, besides gold the US has next to nothing to offer in trade (and to be fair they wouldn't be alone in this respect).

If we also accept that Fort Knox might not be able to withstand a direct hit, particularly if a high enough mega tonnage weapon is used, what are the risks if the gold is left in place? Presumably worst case scenario is that it's all vapourised, with a close second being that it is so irradiated that it cannot be safely used for decades (at least?). In either event it's no longer a tradeable commodity.

So looking at it from the point of view of the US Government's emergency planners as the nukes start flying around in the summer of 97, I think it's possible that they might opt to move at least some of the gold out of Knox to try and protect it from any nuclear attack. As I said, you could be right, but in my opinion the benefits of moving the gold would outweigh the potential risks...


Tony, I don't dispute that elements of either US Government attempting to procure Pucaras from Argentina is possible, however like Targan I just find it highly unlikely.

I also agree that it's possible that someone with access to nuclear knowhow / tech might want to trade it...it's what they plan to buy with it (i.e. the COIN aircraft) that strikes me as unlikely.

(FWIW I actually quite like the idea of a rogue element acting opportunistically and trying to trade nuclear tech for their own benefit, possibly by selling it to the highest bidder...could make a great scenario, especially in a European campaign where you could have all sorts of factions competing against each other to buy a backpack nuke from a KGB agent who has gone into "private enterprise"...)

Dave

At the beginning of the war, arms trade will be lively. Especially re-equipping countries with ammunition and missiles. Past a certain point, though (I'd say mid-1997), it will begin to dry up, and cease altogether after TDM.

LOL

Fly stateside! TSA has a whole new meaning for "up close and personal"!!!!

Oh I know. I was referring to nuclear weapons.

Targan,

This kind of answer always strikes me as highly condescending. I don't need your permission or blessing to do anything in my campaign! ;)

To better orient you and everyone else, this is a "thought experiment". That is, I'm trying to see if it's possible. Is it likely? This is T2K. Stranger things have happened.

From what everyone says and the mechanics of the situation, I think it's possible. Sure, no one else thought of it before and obviously that's causing a lot of difficulties. The idea appears sound, and it therefore logical, useful, and allowed within canon.

Tony

Dave,

Hey, it's a thought experiment.

I don't think this kind of trade is as out of the question as you may think. It may seem unlikely, but who would have thought that Hezbollah would be receiving crates of munitions with Israeli markings transshipped by way of Syria from Iran, paid for by US taxpayers? That this deal would not be on behalf of rogue or low-level elements in the military but allegedly authorised at the highest level of government in direct contravention of policy and even the law.

The truth is stranger than fiction!

Tony

Leg,

I understand you are focusing on modern trade, but it's irrelevant. This is more like barter... you have something I want, I have something you want. No faxes or computers needed!

There are still radios, there are ships, there are aircraft (at least in the period I'm thinking of, around 1998). Not everyone is dead, there could still be creditable intermediaries to facilitate an exchange. A deal could be made in a week. Especially if the controls on nuclear materials have broken down.

All that's required is someone who sees the need and a way to fill it. As a commander, facing an invasion by Division Cuba in Texas or Cuban incursions into Florida, some kind of "ghetto air force" could far outweigh the negatives of a deal. Hell, I would move heaven and earth to make it happen.

Tony

The tone of a post can be misinterpreted as it is solely delivered via text. Condescension was not my intention. It is true that you don't need my permission or blessing but you have them anyway :D

It may well have been thought of before by many people but disregarded on each occasion as being too unfeasible. Plausibility is a very personal thing. You obviously consider the scenario plausible, great, no probs. As far as it being possible in canon I agree that it is because nowhere in canon does it specifically say that combat aircraft were NOT traded to either US government after the TDM. Lots of members here have non-canon campaigns and that is fine too.

Have you considered that if CivGov or MilGov determined that prop driven ground attack aircraft were so desperately needed that they were willing to trade Federal gold reserves or nuke tech to foreign powers to get them, they might also determine on a cost-benefit analysis basis that it would be much more feasible to salvage light commercial aircraft from within the CONUS and refurbish and upgrade them? That would probably be a safer course of action and may even get them their aircraft faster. We already know that after the TDM the various arms of the US military had a surplus of aviation ground crews as they had less and less aircraft to maintain and repair. Sure you woudn't end up with Pucaras. On the plus side you wouldn't need to negotiate with foreign governments, wouldn't need to safely transport tonnes of gold to another continent, wouldn't need to transport aircraft safely back from aforementioned other continent, would be able to use locally sourced avionics, engine parts and weaponry (great for logistical purposes once you start operating the aircraft) and would be able to keep a much tighter lid on secrecy and security for the entire project.

Targan,

It's not the tone per se that's condescending and dismissive. It's that blowing off an idea with the caveat that it's fine for one's personal game (which, by definition, could be of any standard) sounds pretty damning, like saying "huh, it's your funeral!". If you weren't aware of this, well, I guess you learn something new every day!

This is a thought experiment on how feasible this concept is. Perhaps this kind of deal isn't likely (but then look at other real-life arms deals) and not something you'd do, but is still logically sound all the same. (As a point of fact I probably won't have a chance to use this idea in my game because it's is set in Vancouver, nowhere near the southern USA.)

But really, no one has brought this up before, therefore for our purposes such hypothetical people don't exist to buttress your objection. (That is, this imaginary bloc of doubters is just that: imaginary.)

Again, permission to follow this idea where it leads is deeply appreciated but in no way required. :D

Plausibility is a matter of logic, too, it's not just personal preference. That is, an idea can be logically sound whether anyone likes it or not, and some obviously don't!

I'm sure this kind of conversion was done, it's a good suggestion. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be a clear cost-benefit advantage in also receiving such aircraft ready-made and purpose-built. Just because you have one doesn't mean you can't have another.

Also, referring to canon, it's not just a lack of a negative but the fact that Argentina and Brazil were able to accelerate their nuclear weapons programs so radically. Sure, there could be other reasons, but this is a nice way to explain it. It "fits" with canon, not merely doesn't contradict it.

Tony

<meta>

An outsider uninitiated in our ways might do well to glean something learned in another forum I frequent, in that one is free to be as dismissive and obnoxious as one pleases so long as every dig ends with a few exclamation points and a smiley face.

</meta>

Snake,

Ha, sure.

Sorry Targan, I shouldn't have taken offense at what you said.

After all, if I want to use any clearly stupid idea in my lame-assed retarded game, who's gonna say no, eh?!!!111!!11one!!eleven!!1!1 :cool:

Tony

Targ

You raise a very interesting point here (partially answered by the previous idea of a texan airforce flying WW2 aircrafts). Civilian aircrafts would indeed be a very good option to build a rag tag airforce. I don't know how many aircrafts can be around there but that must be a lot.

It will include modern and much less modern aircrafts as well. From memory, in the early 1990's no less than 2000 DC-3 (used as spectres in the Vietnam War) were still flying worldwide. It could also include a large bunch of vintage aircrafts including former combat aircraft and trainers. Sometimes ago I had thought about that because I was amused at the idea to have units in the US air force flying A6M Reisen, Bf-109 Emil or Polikarpov I-15.

We also often forget something else as we focus on technology. To make a combat capable aircraft your main problem is to get a working engine capable of developping between 80 and 200hp. Your second problem is to be able to fit it properly. Your last problem will be to be fitting the weaponry in an efficient way. For the aircraft itself, all you need is wood and fabric. That is the main weakpoint I see in the ozark's opus, It is much easier to make primitive airplanes.

There is scope for adventures in not only the big aircraft factories, or the established light aircraft manufacturers like Piper in Vero Beach, FL, but in tracking down the many kit manufacturers around the US and worldwide.
Given that they specialise in designing aircraft that can be built in a garage, using only the sort of tools any competent mechanic will already own, they would seem an ideal solution to the requirement for at least light recon aircraft, possibly usable as COIN at a push.
For a good example of the sort of aeroplane that can be built from kits, look at www.vansaircraft.com .
For recon, gliders and sailplanes (which can be launched using a bungee system if nothing else is available) would be better than nothing- a sailplane at high altitude is almost invisible, leaves no vapour trail, silent, and can at least carry a camera...

Sanjuro,

I think this is very plausible, something that should have been covered long ago for T2K. These "mini-COIN" aircraft have long been used. See "Operation Biafra Babies" for an example from the late 60's for a successful application of converted civilian aircraft. (MFI-9B single-engine trainer aircraft armed with ground attack rockets were piloted by Swedish mercenaries and trained Biafrans during the Biafran War.)

Statistics from the first 29 attacks (5 abandoned for different reasons) May-Aug:

432 rockets fired, more than 50% hitting targets. No own aircraft
or pilots lost.

Destroyed damaged
MiG-17 3 2
Il-28 1
Canberra 1 1
Intruder 1
2 eng.transport 1
Helicopters 2 1
Trucks 7
Radar 1
ATC tower 1 1
Terminal bldgs 2
Power plant 1
Amm. storage 1
Headquarters 3
AAA 2
Oil pump station 1
Enemy losses: 300 men at airports, 200 men at the front

Culled from the book _Gerillapilot i Biafra_ [1988]

http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/oa...fra_babies.htm

Mini-COIN aircraft are not nearly as well-suited to the mission as purpose-built ones, but lacking anything else are effective enough.

Tony

Group,

This aircraft was included in Challenge #76:

The Sadler A-22 Piranha Light Air Support Aircraft, basically an armed ground-attack ultralight powered by a Chevy V-6 engine.

http://www.morrow-industries.com/TheSadlerPiranha.pdf

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/attack/a22-i.jpg

http://www.bydanjohnson.com/articleart/1276_2.jpg

Tony

Sorry for the thread-o-mancy but those Sadler Piranhas are too cool to not put in my game. :)

RakJPz,

They're canon, go crazy!

Tony

Don't know how common they are, but the timeline for them works great. There's bound to be at least a handful being used by somebody somewhere.