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If the whole world was in a shooting war.. what would be great to cover, is what were they doing or collecting while they were natural. they had a few year (?) of watching and and maybe learning learning. beside how many damaged ships and planes would divert to SA. were they "interred" or returned to there owners. think about about it. a Tango class sub or November takes damage attacking a convoy and limps into Cape Town or Port Elizabeth what do you do. both sides would want it badly....Now this just struck me? how big of a city can that reactor power? |
remember the South Africans are playing both sides of the street - i.e. they are a US ally but they also are courting the French as well - meaning they joined the US in the war only because the Soviets nuked their refineries - so it was more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend - but they also know that the French are the up and coming power for sure and that the US is on the wane, at least for now
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Actually they ended it because of the war - they were already moving towards ending it before the war but the shock of the nuclear strikes on the country and the realization of how Africa's nations were falling apart showed the white leaders of the country that they had two choices - keep it going and watch South Africa descend into total chaos as so many other nations had or end it in the name of national unity and survival. And with the world falling apart the argument for ending it was very persuasive indeed.
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The Asian front - the Koreas, China, Taiwan, and Japan. Maybe cover Phillipines and up into the USSR on the Arctic.
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I don't see this happening in the Twilight War timeline for a number of reasons. South Africa at this time was actually very self sufficient and very wealthy. The UN embargo worked both ways, the world wanted South African gold, diamonds and rare metals. What the South Africans couldn't make or produce themselves they found ways to obtain through various means. They also built up links with other isolated countries in the world, notably Israel. The South African armed forces was also by far the most powerful and best trained in the whole of Africa. They could have taken on a dozen other African countries and held their territory or even beaten them. All of the African countries who had bad relations with South Africa were dependent on military aid, notably from the Soviet Union and other East Bloc countries. South Africa wasn't dependent on anyone. South Africa's white population was very militarised, far more so than any other Western culture. The South African military (excluding the air force and navy) had only 20,000 volunteer troops. But the white male population was required to do 12 months in the military, which added over 40,000 troops every year. They were then requited to serve part time for another 12 years with the Citizen Force which gave the South African military a reserve of nearly 400,000 men at any time. Another 300,000 older men were also available through voluntary para-military service with the Active Citizen Force Reserve and the Home Defence Commandos. White South African males were generally armed, knew how to use weapons, were military trained and were familiar with military tactics. This was especially so with White Afrikaners who were very nationalist and pro-apartheid, and made up the majority of the 170 Home Defence Commando battalions. The Apartheid system never actually broke down even when the entire world condemned it, and did its best to sanction the South African government. It only ended when the South African white government ended it. Within South Africa the black anti-apartheid movement was actually quite weak in comparison to rebel movements in other African or Third World countries. The ANC had more power outside of South Africa. The Black population also feared the South African security services who had a ruthless reputation, and they feared white retaliation against them even more. |
Soviet Far East, Kamchatsky Oblast, Sakhalin islands, Aleutian islands, Alaska, Canadian provinces of the Yukon and British Columbia, and the Pacific Northwest.
Vladivost, Petropavlovsk, Yakutsk, Amur, Sakhalin islands, Adak island (CG and AF), Dutch Harbor, Nome, The DEW line, Ft. Richardson, Ft Wainright, Elmendorf Airforce base, Eielson Air force base, Clear Air station, Ft Lewis, McChord Air force base, Naval Station Whidbey island, Naval Base Kitsap, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Naval Submarine Base Bangor, Naval Station Everett, Fairchild Air Force Base, Coast Guard Station Cape Disappointment, Camp Rilea Oregon, Coast Guard Air Station Astoria, Coast Guard Air Station North Bend, Kingsley Field Air National Guard Base, Umatilla Chemical Depot. |
It was the shock of the nuclear attacks and the effect on the country that made South Africa change. They lost two cities and the riots afterward caused a lot of deaths as people panicked thinking more were coming. They knew the needed unity or they were not going to be able to hold things together - especially if more nuclear attacks occurred. Conventional attack alone wouldn't have done it - I agree with you there - but seeing the destruction in the US and seeing how China fell apart under nuclear attack made them make a choice they would not have made elsewise.
And keep in mind - outside of Kenya and Rwanda and areas under French control they have seen Africa fall completely apart. Facing that reality they know how much of a target they are - and that they can't keep the country safe while at the same time repressing the majority of the population |
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Also South Africa was a para-military state., and a very effective one. They were well prepared for all scenarios due to having a siege mentality, including military invasion and uprisings by the blacks. The white government controlled everything, including power, fuel, water and food supply. South Africa actually became a lot more dangerous as regards to crime and riotous behaviour after the end of white rule, as the black population before the end of apartheid was fairly well behaved considering their lot due the threat of security clamp downs and white retaliation. Quote:
Also no other African country is now a major military threat to South Africa, not even a combination of them, as the Soviet Union is in no position to support them. So who's going to invade South Africa or supply arms to South African blacks with the South African military and para-military forces fully mobilised?. |
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I was looking at the situation in South Africa with the Soviets still in play in Africa and not where they collapsed like they did in our world - thus apartheid is still alive and well when the war broke out. Remember I am using the existing canon and then embellishing it with real world events.
In the canon the Cubans finally pulled out of Angola in August 2000 and that was because they got defeated by a coalition of the South Africans and UNITA -that is established in Gateway to the Spanish Main (its the reason the Cubans were stranded in Grenada - their ship got torpedoed on the way home and they barely made it to shore with their personal weapons and ammo). In the real world the Cubans pulled out Angola starting in 1989 and were completely gone by 1991 - and it was done by accord and treaty not by a military defeat. Thus while I have included a modified Great War of Africa and the Rwandan genocides (real world events) I have also changed the history to match the canon (i.e. the Cubans getting driven out of Angola in 2000 by military force) so that the sourcebook will work with canon events and modules. Without the Cold War ending as it did in our world South Africa does not come under the same level of pressure due to geopolitical concerns as it did in our world - and thus it stays in place longer. Thus Mandela gets released later than he did in our world and apartheid ends in 1998, not 1994. Thus apartheid does come to an end in South Africa during the war - it was beginning to come to an end any way - the nuclear attacks only made it happen much sooner because the country needed to unite to survive the Twilight War. Now if this had been written for the 2013 timeline things would have been different - but it was written for the V1/V2 timelines (it actually can work in either) |
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They fell apart either due to nuclear attacks (Nigeria, Guinea, Mozambique, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Ivory Coast) or because of wars and fighting (Congo, Tanzania, Comoros, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia) or because of the lack of oil and the world economy coming apart and the end of economic and food aid (pretty much everywhere else). The only places that maintained any real cohesiveness were Rwanda (very effective military - i.e. the Israelis of Africa), Kenya (with a lot of help from the US military forces that just barely managed to get there in time), Uganda (which is now starting to come apart because of the LRA and its death squads and Kony basically thinking he is God), and the areas that the French control (which include Djibouti and Senegal and the French Comoros Islands which are now part of the French Union) - otherwise by April 2001 the continent is in a shambles An example would be the Central African Republic - that country has completely fallen apart - outside of the capital city there is no government at all Oh and they didnt hand power over to the blacks - South Africa still considers itself at war and the government is a coalition of blacks and white, each with equal power - its not one man, one vote like in our world - true democracy and actual black rule of South Africa will still be quite a ways in the future As to the Soviets - they set off rebellions and guerrilla movements all across the continent including in South Africa in 1995 to distract from their invasion of China and then nuked two of their cities in 1997 so they would have still been seen as a big threat in 1998 Thus the South African whites saw that the only way to keep the country strong in the face of threats both external and internal was to do the coalition 50/50 government - thus the whites still have power, but now its shared with the blacks |
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Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded
There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997 The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main) |
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I think that the one I'd like to see the most is a Korea Sourcebook -- something I tried to write when I was in the Army but I've lost all the notes for. My second choice would be a Sourcebook for the Occupation of San Antonio -- something else I started writing in the Army, but lost the notes for. (There were two boxes that didn't arrive from Ft Bragg when I got home from the Army; they had a lot of valuable books, notes, and games in them. My guess on its value was about $500 at the time; the Army in its infinite wisdom gave me fifty.)
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if anyone needs info.. I have a copy of jane's Warsaw pact merchant ships recognition handbook from 1987. its not the easiest book to use but it has lots of info.
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One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.
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Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa. |
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with the coal fields (open pit and tunnel) these will be of a lot of use. http://blog.sa-venues.com/activities...-south-africa/ it breaks down most of these by engine types and number of them. |
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For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield. |
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all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers. |
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The Eland did carry a pair of SS.11 missiles, with 600mm penetration against RHA, and some Ratel were modified to ZT-3 configuration with the Ingwe ATGM (1,000mm RHA penetration). However, as you said, gun rounds are easier to do than missiles. The Rooikat's 76mm is based on the OTO Melara naval gun (76mm L/62) and is said to be able to penetrate a T-62's glacis at 2 kilometers. The 105mm that was tested was equivalent to the Royal Ordnance L7, and the APDS rounds were considered equal to the British L52, which implies T-62 penetration at 2.5km. It wouldn't quite be up to handling the modified T-72s and T-80s that the USSR built after analyzing Israeli rounds, but it would do well against earlier tanks. One big advantage would be the ability to use any 105mm NATO rounds, so anything they could beg, borrow, barter, or steal would work. |
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and that is one of the reason i'm looking forward to seeing a South Africa book. |
Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.
One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection. |
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hate for any ship go down near Seal island... air jaws up close. |
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Also Centurion hulls were available. In 1990 Britain declared that it held 570 Centurion tanks in storage, although that probably included some Centurions hulls used as engineer, bridging and recovery vehicles. In real life they were scrapped or sold on at the end of the Cold War, but in T2K they were likely retained. However in 1977 the UN Security Council adopted resolution 418 which imposed a mandatory arms embargo against South Africa, and Britain who abided by it would have not been able to sell arms directly to South Africa. Israel would be an obvious choice to send the Centurions due to their close military relations with South Africa, and the upgrades performed by Israel on its own Centurion tanks. But Britain had also placed an arms embargo on Israel in 1982 due to the Israeli inasion of Lebanon, but British companies like others found way's and means to get around these embargos. Quote:
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There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.
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centuriuons
Possible sources for Centurions:
Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!) Singapore (from INdia and Israel) Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait |
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a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".
it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains. some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa |
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Here is a link to an article about South African operations in Angola in the late 1980's. http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a526489.pdf |
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If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel). |
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