If the whole world was in a shooting war.. what would be great to cover, is what were they doing or collecting while they were natural. they had a few year (?) of watching and and maybe learning learning. beside how many damaged ships and planes would divert to SA. were they "interred" or returned to there owners. think about about it. a Tango class sub or November takes damage attacking a convoy and limps into Cape Town or Port Elizabeth what do you do. both sides would want it badly....Now this just struck me? how big of a city can that reactor power?

remember the South Africans are playing both sides of the street - i.e. they are a US ally but they also are courting the French as well - meaning they joined the US in the war only because the Soviets nuked their refineries - so it was more like the enemy of my enemy is my friend - but they also know that the French are the up and coming power for sure and that the US is on the wane, at least for now

So has South Africa truly ended Apartheid, ore is it only for show.

In the Twilight War I doubt it. More likely its worse than ever as the pro-Apartheid White and likeminded South African population will be armed to the teeth and not a bit worried about world opinion as most of the rest of the world is a lot worse off than South Africa.

Actually they ended it because of the war - they were already moving towards ending it before the war but the shock of the nuclear strikes on the country and the realization of how Africa's nations were falling apart showed the white leaders of the country that they had two choices - keep it going and watch South Africa descend into total chaos as so many other nations had or end it in the name of national unity and survival. And with the world falling apart the argument for ending it was very persuasive indeed.

The Asian front - the Koreas, China, Taiwan, and Japan. Maybe cover Phillipines and up into the USSR on the Arctic.

I don't see this happening in the Twilight War timeline for a number of reasons.

South Africa at this time was actually very self sufficient and very wealthy. The UN embargo worked both ways, the world wanted South African gold, diamonds and rare metals. What the South Africans couldn't make or produce themselves they found ways to obtain through various means. They also built up links with other isolated countries in the world, notably Israel.

The South African armed forces was also by far the most powerful and best trained in the whole of Africa. They could have taken on a dozen other African countries and held their territory or even beaten them. All of the African countries who had bad relations with South Africa were dependent on military aid, notably from the Soviet Union and other East Bloc countries. South Africa wasn't dependent on anyone.

South Africa's white population was very militarised, far more so than any other Western culture. The South African military (excluding the air force and navy) had only 20,000 volunteer troops. But the white male population was required to do 12 months in the military, which added over 40,000 troops every year. They were then requited to serve part time for another 12 years with the Citizen Force which gave the South African military a reserve of nearly 400,000 men at any time. Another 300,000 older men were also available through voluntary para-military service with the Active Citizen Force Reserve and the Home Defence Commandos. White South African males were generally armed, knew how to use weapons, were military trained and were familiar with military tactics. This was especially so with White Afrikaners who were very nationalist and pro-apartheid, and made up the majority of the 170 Home Defence Commando battalions.

The Apartheid system never actually broke down even when the entire world condemned it, and did its best to sanction the South African government. It only ended when the South African white government ended it. Within South Africa the black anti-apartheid movement was actually quite weak in comparison to rebel movements in other African or Third World countries. The ANC had more power outside of South Africa. The Black population also feared the South African security services who had a ruthless reputation, and they feared white retaliation against them even more.

Soviet Far East, Kamchatsky Oblast, Sakhalin islands, Aleutian islands, Alaska, Canadian provinces of the Yukon and British Columbia, and the Pacific Northwest.

Vladivost, Petropavlovsk, Yakutsk, Amur, Sakhalin islands, Adak island (CG and AF), Dutch Harbor, Nome, The DEW line, Ft. Richardson, Ft Wainright, Elmendorf Airforce base, Eielson Air force base, Clear Air station, Ft Lewis, McChord Air force base, Naval Station Whidbey island, Naval Base Kitsap, Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, Naval Submarine Base Bangor, Naval Station Everett, Fairchild Air Force Base, Coast Guard Station Cape Disappointment, Camp Rilea Oregon, Coast Guard Air Station Astoria, Coast Guard Air Station North Bend, Kingsley Field Air National Guard Base, Umatilla Chemical Depot.

It was the shock of the nuclear attacks and the effect on the country that made South Africa change. They lost two cities and the riots afterward caused a lot of deaths as people panicked thinking more were coming. They knew the needed unity or they were not going to be able to hold things together - especially if more nuclear attacks occurred. Conventional attack alone wouldn't have done it - I agree with you there - but seeing the destruction in the US and seeing how China fell apart under nuclear attack made them make a choice they would not have made elsewise.

And keep in mind - outside of Kenya and Rwanda and areas under French control they have seen Africa fall completely apart. Facing that reality they know how much of a target they are - and that they can't keep the country safe while
at the same time repressing the majority of the population

A nuclear attack on South African cities would probably have impacted the non-white population more as South African whites generally lived in suburbs, small towns and rural areas. This is particularly the case with the Afrikaners who's culture was much more rural based and many of them idolised their past conflicts in South Africa with the blacks and the British during the Boer War. The Afrikaners also generally didn't care for more liberal Anglo-whites to much and had their own sort of parallel society within South Africa. Think loads of belligerent rednecks with loads of guns and military hardware, and loads of 4X4 s and horses. They made up nearly 70% of South Africa's six million white population.

Also South Africa was a para-military state., and a very effective one. They were well prepared for all scenarios due to having a siege mentality, including military invasion and uprisings by the blacks. The white government controlled everything, including power, fuel, water and food supply. South Africa actually became a lot more dangerous as regards to crime and riotous behaviour after the end of white rule, as the black population before the end of apartheid was fairly well behaved considering their lot due the threat of security clamp downs and white retaliation.

Well that would imply to the South Africans that the only stable parts of Africa are those under the control of Western militaries; France and America. So why would they want to hand over power to black Africans who have let their countries fall apart completely everywhere else in Africa?

Also no other African country is now a major military threat to South Africa, not even a combination of them, as the Soviet Union is in no position to support them. So who's going to invade South Africa or supply arms to South African blacks with the South African military and para-military forces fully mobilised?.

Not wanting to cause a problem but you know that apartheid ended in 1994 right? it had been on its way out when Nelson Mandela was freed in 1990. by the time nuks started to fly in 97 they would have had about 2.5 years to settle down before the things went down hill. edit.. just found this. . A new constitution, which enfranchised blacks and other racial groups, took effect in 1994, and elections that year led to a coalition government with a nonwhite majority, marking the official end of the apartheid system.

I was looking at the situation in South Africa with the Soviets still in play in Africa and not where they collapsed like they did in our world - thus apartheid is still alive and well when the war broke out. Remember I am using the existing canon and then embellishing it with real world events.

In the canon the Cubans finally pulled out of Angola in August 2000 and that was because they got defeated by a coalition of the South Africans and UNITA -that is established in Gateway to the Spanish Main (its the reason the Cubans were stranded in Grenada - their ship got torpedoed on the way home and they barely made it to shore with their personal weapons and ammo). In the real world the Cubans pulled out Angola starting in 1989 and were completely gone by 1991 - and it was done by accord and treaty not by a military defeat.

Thus while I have included a modified Great War of Africa and the Rwandan genocides (real world events) I have also changed the history to match the canon (i.e. the Cubans getting driven out of Angola in 2000 by military force) so that the sourcebook will work with canon events and modules.

Without the Cold War ending as it did in our world South Africa does not come under the same level of pressure due to geopolitical concerns as it did in our world - and thus it stays in place longer. Thus Mandela gets released later than he did in our world and apartheid ends in 1998, not 1994.

Thus apartheid does come to an end in South Africa during the war - it was beginning to come to an end any way - the nuclear attacks only made it happen much sooner because the country needed to unite to survive the Twilight War.

Now if this had been written for the 2013 timeline things would have been different - but it was written for the V1/V2 timelines (it actually can work in either)

The other countries didnt just fall apart because they were run by blacks - and that statement of mine also applies to the countries above the Sahara which are definitely not black - i.e. Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, etc..

They fell apart either due to nuclear attacks (Nigeria, Guinea, Mozambique, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Morocco, Ivory Coast) or because of wars and fighting (Congo, Tanzania, Comoros, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia) or because of the lack of oil and the world economy coming apart and the end of economic and food aid (pretty much everywhere else).

The only places that maintained any real cohesiveness were Rwanda (very effective military - i.e. the Israelis of Africa), Kenya (with a lot of help from the US military forces that just barely managed to get there in time), Uganda (which is now starting to come apart because of the LRA and its death squads and Kony basically thinking he is God), and the areas that the French control (which include Djibouti and Senegal and the French Comoros Islands which are now part of the French Union) - otherwise by April 2001 the continent is in a shambles

An example would be the Central African Republic - that country has completely fallen apart - outside of the capital city there is no government at all

Oh and they didnt hand power over to the blacks - South Africa still considers itself at war and the government is a coalition of blacks and white, each with equal power - its not one man, one vote like in our world - true democracy and actual black rule of South Africa will still be quite a ways in the future

As to the Soviets - they set off rebellions and guerrilla movements all across the continent including in South Africa in 1995 to distract from their invasion of China and then nuked two of their cities in 1997 so they would have still been seen as a big threat in 1998

Thus the South African whites saw that the only way to keep the country strong in the face of threats both external and internal was to do the coalition 50/50 government - thus the whites still have power, but now its shared with the blacks

Thanks for sharing that with me but I was aware of that, but it didn't happen in the Twilight War timeline at least not in V1. And why would Olefin and I be talking about how the white South African government would come to terms with its black majority if all of this happens?

I wasn't implying that, but all sub-Saharan countries in Africa have black governments and all pretty much collapsed outside of those countries supported by France and the US. And North Africa is basically Arab Muslim and has a very different culture to the rest of Africa.

They likely also fell apart due to having appalling corrupt governments, rampant disease and famine and numerous insurrections.

Exactly

I don't see any reason why they would have to, and I don't see the Afrikaners doing that willingly. Also the South African governemnt created ten self-governing homeland territories for Blacks within South Africa known as Bantustan's in the 1970's (Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Ganzankulu, Lebowa, KaNgwane, KwaNdebele, KwaZulu, QwaQwa, Transkei and Venda). South Africa considered Bophuthatswana, Ciskei, Transkei and Venda to be nominal independent states within South Africa with their own armed forces (para-military forces) with light armoured vehicles, armoured personnel carriers, infantry support weapons and helicopters, although they were closely monitored by the South African military. The South African armed forces also included over 5,000 volunteer black personnel in the ranks of the full time army which only had 19,900 personnel, and another 2,500 were coloured South Africans. However only whites were drafted for national service with the Citizen Force.

I wouldn't rate the chances of black guerrilla movements within South African territory to highly. The South Africans were very effective at disrupting and supressing black rebellion and communist activity within South Africa, and were also very proactive at tackling anti-South African guerrillas and movements in places such as Angola and other countries to the north. They frequently used black South African troops to impersonate guerrillas to infiltrate the organisations, and used white special forces troops to impersonate Soviet and East German advisors. And this was before the full mobilisation of South African forces.

I could see them granting some concessions to blacks such as expanding the territory of the Bantustans and giving them a token presence in the government. But I don't see them being allowed to control the economy or armed forces, as it would likely lead to an Afrikaner coup d'état. More likely the South African government would play on the rivalries that existed within South African black societies, notably Zulus versus Bantu's .

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded

The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997

The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well

The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups

The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas

The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main)

You mean only friendly to MilGov and not CivGov.

I think that the one I'd like to see the most is a Korea Sourcebook -- something I tried to write when I was in the Army but I've lost all the notes for. My second choice would be a Sourcebook for the Occupation of San Antonio -- something else I started writing in the Army, but lost the notes for. (There were two boxes that didn't arrive from Ft Bragg when I got home from the Army; they had a lot of valuable books, notes, and games in them. My guess on its value was about $500 at the time; the Army in its infinite wisdom gave me fifty.)

Sorry to hear that - and would love to do a Korea sourcebook- I agree with you there that its definitely an area that needs more details - especially as there is a lot of the US Army and Marine Corps deployed there

FYI Paul - did you see the credit I gave your site in the Sourcebook?

if anyone needs info.. I have a copy of jane's Warsaw pact merchant ships recognition handbook from 1987. its not the easiest book to use but it has lots of info.

One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.

the bridge might have been dropped by a Ship launched missile close to the mainland. think about if the bridge had many breaks in it. how did each of those happened. some groups of keys would be better off than other groups.

Do you want to start one Olefin?

I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.

with the coal fields (open pit and tunnel) these will be of a lot of use. http://blog.sa-venues.com/activities...-south-africa/

it breaks down most of these by engine types and number of them.

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page, it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.

The Eland had either a 60mm gun-mortar or a 90mm low-velocity cannon. It was a good vehicle, but wouldn't reliably penetrate a T-55, let alone anything newer; the 90mm has around 320mm penetration against RHA and the 60mm only 200mm of penetration at point-blank ranges. The Ratel had either a 20mm autocannon or one of the main armaments from the Eland.

The Eland did carry a pair of SS.11 missiles, with 600mm penetration against RHA, and some Ratel were modified to ZT-3 configuration with the Ingwe ATGM (1,000mm RHA penetration). However, as you said, gun rounds are easier to do than missiles. The Rooikat's 76mm is based on the OTO Melara naval gun (76mm L/62) and is said to be able to penetrate a T-62's glacis at 2 kilometers. The 105mm that was tested was equivalent to the Royal Ordnance L7, and the APDS rounds were considered equal to the British L52, which implies T-62 penetration at 2.5km. It wouldn't quite be up to handling the modified T-72s and T-80s that the USSR built after analyzing Israeli rounds, but it would do well against earlier tanks. One big advantage would be the ability to use any 105mm NATO rounds, so anything they could beg, borrow, barter, or steal would work.

and that is one of the reason i'm looking forward to seeing a South Africa book.

Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.

or the Marksman's turret mounted on a anti pirate boat or river gun boat or a gun truck...

hate for any ship go down near Seal island... air jaws up close.

More than likely as it was superior to the Soviet supplied tanks used by other African nations.

Also Centurion hulls were available. In 1990 Britain declared that it held 570 Centurion tanks in storage, although that probably included some Centurions hulls used as engineer, bridging and recovery vehicles. In real life they were scrapped or sold on at the end of the Cold War, but in T2K they were likely retained.

However in 1977 the UN Security Council adopted resolution 418 which imposed a mandatory arms embargo against South Africa, and Britain who abided by it would have not been able to sell arms directly to South Africa. Israel would be an obvious choice to send the Centurions due to their close military relations with South Africa, and the upgrades performed by Israel on its own Centurion tanks. But Britain had also placed an arms embargo on Israel in 1982 due to the Israeli inasion of Lebanon, but British companies like others found way's and means to get around these embargos.

Its possible and certainly South Africa favoured wheeled vehicles on the South African terrain, as excluding the Olifant tanks the rest of the South African army's fleet of over 5,000 armoured vehicles were wheeled.

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

centuriuons
 

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait

That is something i will buy if i ever get the change.

a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa

I need to get that. I have Osprey's South African Special Forces book.

Here is a link to an article about South African operations in Angola in the late 1980's.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a526489.pdf

I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).