A great summary of Israel's current quandary, Haven. I couldn't have put it any better myself.

No wonder no one's posted a solution to the HAMAS rocket attack problem. It's easier, I guess, just to say that it's not a problem...:rolleyes:

Actually, the answer to the problem has been posted several times;

- Stop victimising the Palestinians, give them liveable land, stop killing their police officers, stop blockading thier movement, stop cutting off their power, stop cutting off their water, etc etc.

The cause of the attacks is hatred. You can't get a military solution to hatred.

The IRA actually launched rockets, but you never saw the RAF bombing Belfast.

It has been posted over and over that the cause of all this is the treatment of the Palestinians, they have nothing to live for.

And then Hamas stops launching indescriminant rocket attacks against Israel?

So if militant members of some oppressed minority segregated into "reservations" in your country started launching rockets into your town or city (or a town or city where your family and/or lives) you would respond by demanding that your government immediately give them what they want and not respond militarily?

Once again, I agree with you on the long term solution but I find your support for Hamas baffling. If I was a Palestinian, I imagine I would be cursing and shaking my fist at the Israelis right now too. But, I think that I would also be cursing and shaking my fist at Hamas for provoking the Israelis and trying to court civilian casualties by hiding behind their own people.

"Hey, guys in ski masks! Stop launching those rockets at Israel, will you? It doesn't seem to be doing any of us any good at all!"

Hamas came to power due to its militant (some would say extremist) stand against Israel. Yes, they have popular support. Does that make their actions justifiable? Hamas knows that they stand to lose political power if peace ever comes to the region and that's why they will not allow it to happen. I suspect that's the main reason why Hamas decided not to renew the original cease-fire and instead, immediately renewed its indiscriminant rocket attacks against Israel. I understand why some Palestinians support violent means of protest but why educated third party observers try to defend blatant terrorist acts is beyond me.

It is troubling that people don't seem to have much of a problem with Israeli civilians getting blown up (after all, it's their fault; it's only a few of them, etc...) but are so incensed at Palestinian civilian casualties.

Actually, I categorically do not support Hamas. I just don't have the somewhat stereotypical view that is handed out by the mass media (and I'm not inferring you do). I understand why Hamas is popular, and it distresses me that the side with the most to gain; Israel, creates (don't forget Hamas was originally funded by Israel to undermine Fatah) and then bolsters through their actions groups like this. Israel is capable of being proactive, the Palestinians as a people are not. Because of the conditions imposed on them they are almost entirely reactive.As I said, Hamas is a symptom, not an illness.

Like Hezbollah, Hamas is a group that is not just a resistance organisation. It is also a social groupment, a charity, a service and utility provider and a religious group. To state, as is often said in the commercial media, 'Hamas hides behind civilians' is purposefully wrong and purposefully misleading. Hamas is civilian, the majority of its fighters are ex-PA security forces, but also have a primarily civilian function. They don't sit around all day polishing their AKs. This intertwining of the military, paramilitary and non-military is well understood as a side-effect of the collapsed condition of society on the West Bank and Gaza, but a simplistic view is expounded to make them easy black-and-white foes.

A group such as Hamas is best destroyed by removing its reason for being. I endorse any method of undermining Hamas by bettering the lives of Palestinians, and I suggest that this would automatically better the lives of their Israeli neighbours as more working men would be supporting families and not throwing their lives away against the IDF or the civilians they shield.

Realistically, it was Israel just as much or arguably more who acted in bad faith. Hamas could not renew the cease-fire with the blockade killing the people by degrees, it was against their reason for being. If Israel had relaxed the blockade and allowed humanitarian aid back into Gaza, allowed food, allowed power and allowed drinking water, only then could Hamas feel that both sides were dealing in good faith. Hamas is a very reactive organisation, it responds strongly, simply and predictably. I don't for a second believe that no one in Israel's ruling elite didn't think the rockets would start up again if they kept up the horrible blockade.

This is where I put the blame. The 'tough on Hamas' crowd are being macho for the upcoming election, and they know that if they keep throttling Gaza they can count on Hamas to start shooting off their stupid Quassams in a show of defiance, and have a cassus belli to be hardcore.

I don't support Hamas either. Quite the opposite. They are a bunch of murderous terrorists thugs and religious fanatics and I don't like either terrorists or religious fanatics of any persuasion. Just because I oppose the Israeli military killing large numbers of innocent civilians doesn't mean I support Hamas.

solution?
 

Israel is in a though spot -Palistinians are living in hell.

My humble opinion is that rather than give the Palistinians something to fight and die for ( i.e a cause/ against the brutal oppression ) the powers that be ( we all know who is on that list ) should give them something to live for -a prosperous and viable society and nation state.

In a somewhat similar case :I remember my reaction when I read the figures for the cost of the campaign against Jugo forces in Kosovo and Serbia and the funding allocated for rebuilding and aid .The war had gotten more than 100 times the cash the rebuilding had 3 years later.How is that for strategy ..

The US knew what to do after 45 - helping Europe rebuilding their economies.Thats what is gotta happen with the next wars to -otherwise there is no end .

Yeah.

I know it is a bit hopeful ,but the other way has been tried for decades now and I believe that the military operations costs way more than reconstruction will -especially in said area .


Towards the end - I go with Grimace who said : keep it civil. Its not bad now , but you know - middle east is a topic that easily sparks of into something bad .

No one is supporting Hamas
 

I have seen that this came on the spot but I agree with Chalkline and Targan, no one is supporting Hamas around here.

I have said that we avoided a genocide and I had good reason to say that even as it was slightly overstated. Just look at the figures given in the press (I know they are unreliable but they are what we have know). During the first three days of the offensive (as the world was still looking away) almost 400 Palestinians (mostly civilians) had been killed and 1300 had been wounded. Today (after 6 more days of fighting), 100 more Palestinians (mostly militia) had been killed and about 400 more wounded (strangely I bet that they are mostly militia as well). So, by the way, Targan talking about it has some purpose and it changes things as it forces leaders to get some sense of measure. I don't know what the true translation of it is in English but in French we use to say that "the worse is when people of good remain silent". I 'm not saying that the israelis would approve a genocide but they could have comit one by simply going too far, porbably trying to avoid their own casualties: no israeli soldiers had been hit during the first three days, 1 has been killed and 30 wounded since the ground attack started.

Raellus you asked if the Israeli government should have remained idle. Of course, the answer is NO. However, someone compare that to the situation in Northern Ireland and that might be a very good comparison indeed. Here in France, the Jewish representative council (not the Jews themselves) keep saying that no country would have endured what Israel did endure for 8 years without moving. I realize that it is false as England endured it for almost 50 years (including the bloody sunday of 1972). The British (no matter how brutal some might have been) never responded by an all out offensive on civilians. Else, when the second intifada started in 2000 (I think) many Jews who had survived the Nazis and the camps demonstrated in the streets. They were not demonstrating in support of Israel but with Palestinians in support of the Palestinian population (the POPULATION, not the Fatah or the Hamas). They were given very little audience but one of them compared what was happening in Israel to what the Nazi did to the jews during WWII (not talking of the holocaust of course but thinking of privation, yellow stars...). I don't think that anyone can qualify survivors of the Shoah to be supportive of terrorism.

Are there some other ways. Obviously YES and that is true even with terrorism around. Rabin proved it until he was killed (by a Jew). The task was far from over but things were under way and terrorism (if still very active) was more fledgeling than it is now. Of course, Hamas is a terrorist movements but we are talking to terrorist all the time and that doesn't always matter that much. In that case it sounds more and more as a false excuse used by both side: "we are not talking to Palestinians they are terrorists, we are not talking to Israeli's they are bombing us and assassinating our leaders, we are not talking to Palestinians they are throwing rockets, we are ending the cease fire the Israelis are not leveling the blocus...", and in the meantime kids, women, and men from both sides are killed almost everyday with no future to look at.

Again, as I said, it's easy to say from behind a computer desk. I also agree with Grim,we had said it all and it's time to go away from that subject. Let's now hope that it will end soon and that, at some point, a few among the Israelis and Palestinians will be brave enough to end this needless bloodshed.

Part of me wishes they'd all hurry it up over there and just go ahead and drag us full on into WWIII so we can get on with the whole anti-christ/rapture "end of days" thing. I've grown weary of waiting for that other shoe to drop. You know - just to be contrary.

Since no one has really laid out a plan for Peace.

I like this article.

Course it doesn't really deal with the here and now....

http://www.newsweek.com/id/177840

I kind of liked Jack Ryan's plan as enumerated in Tom Clancy's The Sum of All Fears - turn policing of the Holy Land over the the Swiss Guard and park an armored cav regiment, an air wing, and a carrier battle group there to give them some teeth. Naive, but tidy.

Just to get on a lighter note
 

I know its dreadful -all of it .

All those people down there held hostage and prisoners top leaders and policies that are selfserving and wicked.I got kids - it really tears me up to see the pictures.

So here

http://www.hamas.no/hamas/index.php

a Norwegian company that deal in farming equipment -nothing to do with the midleeast WHATSOEVER -but just the name ...

Gas cut from Russia
 

Increasing problem with Gas coming from Russia. We all know that Russia cut the gas to Ukraine on January 2. Today, the quantity of gas delivered to the EU has dropped also. It is cut to Southern Europe and Turkey. Poland recieved only 15% of it. France received only 30%...

So far it is unclear who does what between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine claims that Russia reduced its deliveries to Europe. Russia claims that Ukraine cut three out of the four gazoduc on its soil.

As Europe is currently experiencing a cold period that might quickly become a true problem. Anyway, it's good for our imagination.:D

cash flow problem
 

Moscow might be having a cashflow problem , and this i sa way of securing the necessary loans or extensions of payment or whatever...

It could also be a continuation of the good old "bash the Ukranians and give Nato the finger while doing it -cause we can just turn of th ef***ing gas and then what are you going to do???" -

realpolitik in other words.

I predict Sarkozy will be on television in less than a week if th ecold continues and state that the overtures from NATO /OTAN to Ukraine were premature and part of the failed policies of the Bush administration ..

.." bien sur..we `ave no-thing to do over there -ce la playground les Ruskis.."

Who could blame him .

Not us -we have all the gas we need ,thats why the Russians are flying all sorts of sorties along our borders and simulating nuclear missile attacks with old bombers against our cities-breaking of JUST before the incursion gets grave enough that our leaders actually would have to try an put something behind ourt lame and feeble protests to Moscow.

It is clear that the US and Russia arnt in the same league -but Russia is strong enough now ,that messing with them in any way is political madness-and Washington knows it .

NATO will not expand eastwards for the next couple of decades imho.

h for humble as always.

I agree with everything you say but I was not thinking of real life. About Sarko don't worry about him you already won your bet two or three time. Sarkozete is on TV about every week, he is our national muppet right now (of course everyone understood that I'm not very supportive of him:D ).

My problem is that he is moving a lot but I still don't have the feeling that he is really doing anything new or anything at all. Oops, I'm wrong he betrayed the constitution at least once and escaped his responsibilties as leader of the state at least once also. I msu give him credit for two things so: he made me read our constitution and made me care about what is going on in Politics. I get the funny feeling that I'm not the only one in that case and ,right now, what worries me the most is the fact that the French are not complaining anymore.

Currently he is gesticulating in the Middle East so he can argue that he is doing something. First, he better hurry, within twelve days he won't be the most interesting "people" on TV anymore. I just have a question, then. Where was he between June and December? He had access to all the reports from the UN (you know the one that are available to all) plus a few other I guess. What is funny is that he became president of EU almost right when the truce between Hamas and Israel came into effect. Saddly he had not care about it at all. Right, he had already too much at hand with Tibet, playing Chinese Poker and going to the Olympics (Plus, later, Russia and the financial crisis). Still, he could have cared a little in July but I guess that these peoples wouldn't have fit well on TV (after all, they were not dying under bombs and rockets, depending on what side you are talking of, and he was simply in a position to attempt something to avoid the current situation, why would he have done anything then?).

Please, to all Americans, couldn't you hurry things a bit (change that transition period dating back to the civil war may be?). I'm not Obamaniak but at least it will distract the world a bit and I'll be happy to see a new face on TV. After all, there is a 50/50 chance that he may be good, and at least he will be new.:) Moreover, he is good looking and doesn't look like a mix between Frankenstein and an Hungarian frog.:D

Ah Mohoender!
Your Sarkozete would be an excellent NPC... I will try to think about his statistics later...:D

LOOOL:p

oopss.
 

politics history thread spilled over into this one ..

Well at least maybe what I said could be used to make a case for a scenario where the "little games" like gas ,ukraine,georgia and increasing Russian ruthlessness in foreign politics sparks of a situation where things "get out of hand " and the world gets dragged into another big war .

Well, I don't support Sarkozy -- but I'll take Carla Bruni...:p

As for not supporting the Constitution, Bush has everyone beat (except maybe Dick Cheney). Bush probably has rolls of toilet paper in the White House residence printed with the Constitution.

Ok for Carla Bruni but you'll need to be very very rich. Her main advantage is that you can hear distant sounds when she is singing. Plus you'll have to throw your kids out if you have some (She is exactly what you called a slut when you were at school). To her credit she has never hided that and it is not a problem in France. It might be for our president so. Moreover, if Sarko's ever visit US and If I was Barack's wife, I'll be checking hard on my husband.

I agree with you on Bush but it seems to me that you fix it somehow (better late than never). Sarko ruling over my country I don't find that to be anything lighter.

Oops, now, I agree we are going into Politics but, after all, with Sarko I can't help it. Moreover, the gas issue with Russia is an interesting one. The EU presidency made a declaration when it seem to be ordering Russia to deliver gas (press released). I don't know to what extend this is true but as Russia is still the owner of its gas, I can imagine plenty of diplomatic possibilities out of this.:rolleyes:

About the gas conflict between Rússia and Ukraïna, both countries take profit from the lowering in the gas supply to the rest of Europe. Rússia is remembering to Europe our dependence an important energy source suplied for them. A good probe to check the european reaction. And Ukraïna is pressuring the rest of Europe, blaming the russians as the unique cause of the problem and insinuating that any other european country could have the same problem in the future. Wich is essentially true.

Anyway it's strange to realize how quickly are forgotten by Western Europe any strategic considerations after a short period without tension with Russia

Careful what you wish for there. 50/50? I make it more like 10/90. The unkown factor.

Grae
end of political discussion

I maintain my 50/50 for several reasons.

First, I don't know that much about him (except for about 1 ton of articles from various newspapers and as much film from TV).
Second, I distrust whatever generate some kind of frenzy (especially in France where it's dum and pointless).
Third, he is not my president, he is yours (That explains why the Obamania from the French is dum and pointless).
Fourth, what may be good for US is not always good for people outside US (and that's fine like this).
Fifth, I expect US citizens to have chosen a president they trust to be good for them. You have enough problems on your own right now and I don't think you are there to solve the world's problems.
Sixth and last, I'm not living in US anymore, I'm not voting there and I don't think that he will oppose some of the security devices that are entering service.

By devices, I'm thinking of the new type of scanner (x-ray scanner, I think it is called). From what I have seen I'll be a pain if I ever get to an airport. No way, a man will look at my wife through that thing. Moreover, if either a man or even a woman dare looking at my kids through this I might quickly get violent and I'm not sure that any human or divine law can stop me (and that is an understatement as that thing my cause the twilight war to come true:D ).

Therefore my 50/50 was in no way a political discussion.

Alot of what I have heard with debates is he is a socialist, alot of his ideas are even marxist. I had a course of e-debates on a Discussion forum with a soon to be Lt about how great he was and how he can walk on water.

Love his ideas but in the end they are so much talk with no way to be implimented. Unless the state controls those industries to include the labor of specialists which would never fly, and from what I am seeing, he is rounding up some of the usual suspects for his yes men, nothing like using the same old people and ideas to bring change.

So, in the end, we all shall have hope and change, or more like, we will be

HOPING FOR CHANGE left in our pockets.

Guys, I'm a Socialist. Many of my friends are Marxists.

He's so much a capitalist it's not funny, don't even go there.

Honestly, they're using 'Socialist' and 'Marxist' as scare-words. In Oz he'd be considered 'too right-wing'.

Anyway, what's President-elect Obama got to do with WW3?

Gee I'm glad that you post here Chalkline. Its nice to have someone writing things very much like what I think, but writing them better than I could.

I'm a socialist too. I think it is really important for our American friends to realise that just because someone is a socialist doesn't mean they are not a patriot or are in some way evil or dangerous. And just because I'm left-leaning doesn't mean I'm anti military or anti-war. If anything I'm pro-military and I'm quite happy to support wars that are started for good reasons. I was/am against the war in Iraq but I wholeheartedly support the war in Afghanistan.

Well I just love all the NON-T2K talk here. Please can we keep the bashing of my Commander and Chief down to a min . I dont bash yours so dont bash mine. also his failed policys? I dont see any from my point of view. and I support all of our wars! I love them! The only time I'm at peace is after I smoke some godless ass from some crap hole country.(Its my way to keep global warming down and keep the world clean) I leave this spring so i will be at peace again.


So please lets keep this civil get back to twilight and stay friends.

I have to say I agree with LAW.

A few points.

A word can mean meany things depending on culture and context. I am sure "spicy" means different things in Ireland compared to India. I am pretty sure "socialist" could also been seen the same way.

When discussion politics I would really rather opinions be kept to a minimum. Even facts can be a gray area as political spin masters can come up with facts to support almost any position.

When discussing any political figure people should remember that between 25-75% of the readers on this board may support the policies of that figure. We are a very varied group in terms of backgrounds and political affiliations, please try to keep verbal assaults against anyone (even political figures) to a minimum.

This thread has not spun out of control yet and I am proud of you guys for that but we are getting dangerously close. Remember guys this is a T2k board.



Edit;

Paul I appreciate you bringing Carla Bruni into this thread.

I am now going to try to shamelessly derail this thread by getting us all to agree she has wonderful legs.

http://z.hubpages.com/u/169065_f520.jpg

Yum. Could someone let her know that she is welcome to stay at my place if she ever visits Australia. I have a couple of things I'd like to show her.

Well, nothing really. Unless he actually does bear the mark of The Beast - in which case we are probably in for some very nasty weather.

:D

Kato I'm not going to help you on that one :D . My wife legs are ten times more beautiful, also they are only for me to see.;)

Carla is definitely too skiny and lack whatever is needed for a woman, in my opinion of course. She looks somewhat like a tank with no ammo and empty gas tank (See we are getting back to T2K:p ). So guys if you want to take her at home be my guest, I'll be sleeping in the bathroom. Make her sing so I'll enjoy the silence:D . Anyway, if you really intend to do so, you better have a life style or social situation similar to that of those guys (those being the official ones only):

Mike Jagger
Eric Clapton
Jean-Jacques Goldman
Arno Klarsfeld
Laurent Fabius
Vincent Perez
Enthoven (Raphaël) father and, then, son (she jumped from one to the other with no consideration for the son's wife of course).
Louis Bertignac,
……
Nicolas Sarkozy

Last attempt to get back to the thread subject:o : does any of you know what is going on in India/Pakistan? The situation seems to ease a bit but things seems to be going on in Tribal region.

You are a very lucky man then.

As your thoughts have proved there is no single opinion in which everyone on this board is going to agree. On something subjective there is really no reason to expect it or to be bothered by that fact.

I'm quite confident that the only reason Carla Bruni hasn't slept with me is that she hasn't met me yet :cool:

Carla Bruni
 

I agree - now thats a first "lady"

Who cares if she is a powerhungry .... ( insert bad word for woman who sleeps with powerful men to get what she wants ...ahhhrgh..if I only had alittle more power..) .. well,at least she is honest about it . And in that way you have to admit she fits in rather well with her new hubby and his circle.


AS FOR T2K today thread :

did we use to discuss as edgy on the last forum ? I dont remember

but FOR ONCE I actually have to agree with ..LAW ?? :confused:

The nonT2k talk sort of piles up.Yeah , I now I am part of it and take sides too.

Please lets get of the politics -clearly the "timeline" discussions always spark some exchanges that are not game-constructive.

I have read somewhere that fringe groups always split up .People - I think it is safe to say we are a fringe group - to put it in T2K terms -maybe the last group of active players and T2K-diehards ON THE PLANET!!

I have to say, I know for a fact that unpleasantness drives people away. I try to allow open and honest discussions as censorship is a slippery slope, but of course there will always be limits.This thread has teetered on the edge of being more useful than being disruptive so I have not put any clamps on yet.

I know many people are tempted to use this forum to vent frustrations or anger (which may have nothing to do with this board), but if you do that whatever you say is likely to piss someone else off. If it happens too much we WILL lose valuable input, that is an undeniable truth.

Just another bit for everyone to digest.

Well, I must recognize that I feel myself invested with the holy mission to evangelize all the poor souls that remain unaware about the existence of the roleplaying way of life. All those lost lambs that are still waiting in the darkness without knowing such important theological concepts like initiative step, outstanding success, to hit roll... I teach all of them that there's a roleplaying path suitable for everyone, no matter the number of sides of the dice (mmmm...sorry, the Omnipresent Multiform Dice) they would be rolling. And following this evangelization task, one of my groups (that I'm proud to say it has been growing in numbers these last months:cool: ) is quite young (20-24 years) and is about to play its third T2K adventure next week. So, please, try to spread the word!!! For the moment I will try to avoid to tell them that, in the cold Norwegian lands, a group of T2K players try to bomb their enemies with latrines. After all they are only tender beginners. ;)

lol
 

I guess to you people on the continent us Scandinavians have always been unwashed,heathen barbarians - a view supported by the horde sof our people that lay panting sunburned red and drunk as F**k on the beaches of the mediterranean -the tourists.

The shitbombing is not a new idea though - many siege engineers have used cadavers and manure in their techniques to breach a fortification in the course of history .

As a GM I have learned never to say NO - just give penalties .

But you know what they say - play rpgs using regular tactics for years and nobody says nothing -but use homemade biological latrine weapons on a large scale ONCE...the talk never ends..

Congrats on recruiting a gaming group and doing important missionary work .

We need more dedicated men like you .

Strange I never got any comments when I sendt political enemies and POWs in the Asbestos mines....maybe because I never had any use for the asbestos they made haha

hehe
 

well the NPCs started a coup that toppled your regime as soon as they saw it was weakend enough ..thats a statement I guess..

Chalk, this thread IS T2K Today. Hopefully BO will have NOTHING to do with a third world war, but from a Yank, and an INDEPENDENT rather than any party follower, there's is SOMETHING about him that rubs me wrong. But then he's like all politicians... you know they're lying because their lips are moving.

Now how about them Russian's? Or Chineese? Perhaps it's the NK or pirates of Africa? I'm reading a very well written fiction by a amature author on WW3. Stolen nukes and terrorism in the US, with the aftermath. OF course it might not be WW3 but it is post-apoc.

Grae

To bounce of what Grae just said, China is looking really, really dodgy and it doesn't seem to be getting much attention.

China has fuelled its ridiculous growth by its totalitarian economy restricting aspects of free markets, but in a bad way. I'm all for regulation, but the Chinese really, really got it arse-about.

In essence, foreign currency is contraband in China. It has to be turned into a central bureau and exchanged for vouchers, which massively constricts the system but does make some of the elites very, very wealthy. Because such huge amounts of cash clog one area, the Chinese simply invest these funds in other economies that they want access to at very poor returns. It's been estimated that the one way flow of money from China has been as if everyone in the west got a $4000US gift from the Chinese government in living standards for the last ten years.

Now, this isn't how even rabid democratic socialists such as myself see investment being used. Because the money comes in normally and then shoots out in one direction it means that someone has to lose out. In this case it has been the Chinese lower class and thier social environment. The Chinese live in filthy, smoggy cities with deteriorating infrastructure and a huge gulf between the classes. A new generation of Chinese are growing up who look at what they make for export and then compare it with what they have domestically. And they don't like what they see.

It should be noted; you don't get revolutions when you hit rock bottom, everyone is too flat out simply surviving. You get revolutions after a period of prosperity followed by a downturn so the people can make comparisons. Someone has to suffer from the recent slowing of the Chinese economy, and it won't be the people who are benefiting from the massive recent growth who get shafted first, it will be those lower down in the food chain.

What isn't widely known about China is that there's a lot of tension between the seaboard areas that are wealthy and the rural interior which is not. There's been a drift of people from the interior into the the seaboard areas for work, and they're going to be sent home as they get laid off and returned to even worse poverty.

This is rife T2K country. China has a huge military and the commands could easily splinter apart, as they did in the 1920s during The Warlord Era. The rural areas against the coastal industrial make for a good mix, but it's a feature of the warfare that divisional commanders 'on the same side' don't really cooperate. They manoeuvre against the enemy, but also politically against their own side to see if the can climb command ladders.

Players not wishing to play Chinese PCs would be either military or civilians in the border areas. Wild card Chinese divisions could tip North Korea over the edge while other Chinese divisions try and stop it happening and cooperate with international forces.