That's somewhat ... cavalier ... when we had Range Days they checked the soles of our GPs to make sure no spent brass was caught in the tread 'accidentally' ...

Phil

That's a bit more extreme that what we had to go through. Just had webbing ammo pouches physically searched (by an NCO simply putting his hands inside), and occasionally we'd have to empty our packs.

After we'd left the range (which usually was the local rifle clubs) there'd be a horde of civilians scouring the mounds for any brass we'd missed to reload. It was also not unknown for older worn out brass to be swapped with the "new" brass we had - as long as the weight was right....

But god help you if they found some brass or links in your clothing or gear...they usually make you strip down to your underwear while assuming the position against the wall and insulting and threatening you the whole time. I've even seen Article 15s given out.

Now if they find a live round...well, even god cannot help you at that point!

The stockpile pictures remind me of the ammo and weapon "depot" used by Sarah Connor in Terminator 2.

All together now!

"I HAVE NO LIVE ROUNDS OR RANGE PRODUCTS IN MY POSSESSION, SIR!!!"

It was "NO BRASS, NO AMMO, DRILL SERGEANT" for me, only time they ever cared to check us.

Emergency Ammo Stores
 

Also remember that certain "training facilities" are included in Continuity Of Government (hereafter COG) planning. In PA, we have Ft. Indiantown Gap (the GAP to NG soldiers). It contains a large munitions dump (enough ammo for the 28th Division INCLUDING artillery and AT munitions) with at least a couple of MILLION rounds small arms ammo. This ammo is SPECIFICALLY for a COG scenario.
In OH, you have the newly REESTABLISHED Ravenna Arsenal. The Ravenna Arsenal was a decommissioned ammo plant that was taken over by the OH National Guard as a training facility and is now being considered as a Missile Center for the East Coast (THAAD, I'm guessing). There is a huge COG stockpile there as well (2 divisions worth at least).

Then you have the AMSA (Army Maintenance & Support Assistance) depots. There are half a dozen in PA alone. These centers provide technical support (mechanics, admin, and armorers) for up to a dozen reserve or NG units (generally company sized units) and hold stores of weapons, equipment, vehicles, fuel and at least enough small arms ammo (and spare parts) to give every company they serve "one loadout" of rifle and pistol ammo in case of a disaster. The one we have at the Keystone Ordinance Training Center also has a million gallons of fuel in its storage tanks. AMSA Depots are the NG's first line of supply in a disaster. They would be a key resource in the early stages of any NG "call-out."

That would be a heck of a "pull" to start an adventure. A mixed bag of civvies and soldiers trying to acquire an AMSA for their enclave.

And don't joke with the drill sergeant and loudly shout, "No ass, no brammo, drill sergeant!!!" You get to do pushups until "he gets tired." Plus you get searched for brass just for the hell of it.

I've got a missing rounds story, I think.

When I was a pre-teen, my family lived in Ecuador, in a condo next to a Ecuadorian army general. He had an Uzi-armed guard posted outside his house day and night. My little brother and I befriended one of them. In our pigeon-Spanish, we taught him the rules of baseball and, in return, he let us take photos of each other holding the Uzi. We even talked him into giving us a live 9mm round as a souvenir. That was the last we saw of that particular guard. :o

Privately Made Ammo
 

The other "hidden source" of ammunition was touched on in TW2K13...Reloading. In the event of a major "event," I would be hitting Gander Mountain, Dunham Sports, or Field & Stream and acquiring all the bullets, powder, and primers I could get my hands on. I do have bullet molds in some of my calibers, but commercial ones are better. I can make primers (using fulminated Mercury and heavy aluminum foil wrap) and both black and smokeless powder, but the commercial stuff is way better (and safer).
At the height of my competitive shooting "addiction" (I couldn't call it a "career" as it cost me far more money than I won), I had enough reloading components to roll 75K rounds in any given year (I averaged between 30K and 50K rounds shooting IPSIC, IDPA, 3-Gun, and Street Tacticals). I can roll around 15K rounds now that I don't have time to shoot as much. A typical progressive reloading rig would cost about $2K with all the tools and other equipment you need. I can roll about 300 rounds of good ammo an hour on my Dillon 550 Press. Primers would be the biggest problem in a crisis.
I don't understand why the Walking Dead didn't just have the characters grab a reloading press and components in one of the episodes. There would be REAL VALUE in having someone cranking out a thousand rounds a day during the apocalypse...but then they give the characters about a dozen full auto AKs in the show. The odds of there being that many NFA/Class 3 AKs in a single area are simply ASTRONOMICAL. Those should be tri-burst M4's and A2's picked up from dead soldiers, NOT full auto AKs. To make it worse, Rick is actually carrying a full auto AK-74! There might be (at most) a hundred of those in the US. Most in manufacturer's vaults. They should just have used semi-autos. That would be realistic in the US. I guess the problem is that the (not very gun savvy) producers think that Americans can just walk down to the local sporting goods store and pick up a Class 3 weapon.

I don't know much about that site. I saw it during a search but, dismissed them as a conspiracy site such as we have here in the States.

I see your story and raise you. :p

Just before Christmas 1994 I was part of an enemy party attached to 8RAR for a two week end of year exercise. The weather was clear and sunny with temps averaging around the low 40's C (100+ F). Perfect weather for running about the bush in full gear (if you're insane and want to die of dehydration and heat stroke).

Anyway, the first day or two were spent on the range - usual small arms, grenades, etc. While we were on the grenade range someone in my section kicked something in the grass, reached down and pulled out an F88 Steyr AUG. A few questions later and it was confirmed everyone still had their weapons in hand...
Seems somebody in a unit which had been through the area previously had been somewhat lax with their issued equipment. I'm guessing at least one head rolled over that little slip up, probably more - we never did find out what happened after it was handed to the QM.

See you and raise you.

I did my tour with Sydney University Regiment 1974-75 and, back then, there were still CMF NCOs and Officers (it was an Officer Training unit, at least theoretically) who had been in it since before the (effective) end of Conscription in 1972 when the only way to be sure of a University deferment was to be in the CMF ('Citizen Military Forces' back then, now the Army Reserve).

Anyhoo, one time when the Signals Platoon was on a weekend Bivvie, one of the Sergeants was reminiscing about ... idiots? ... and regaled us with the story of the bivvie he was on when the announcement came through that conscription was dead.

Two of the other troopies, one an NCO (don't remember whether he was a Corporal or Sergeant), were so effing happy to not have to be in the effing army any more (and they weren't evidently even that polite!) they took their SLRs (Aussie made FN-FALs) by the slings, swung them around their heads, and threw them off the top of the very high hill they had just climbed.

Only to be informed by the (Regular Army) CSM with them that they had to find the damn things before anyone could go home ... took the rest of the day grubbing through the bush, it did :D

One was more or less intact, the other evidently had (from memory) either a cracked wooden casing around the barrel or a broken buttstock. The CSM took pity on them and they were listed as 'damaged in action' ...

Phil

You call THAT a raise!? Pfft!

A few days later on the very same exercise, our enemy platoon was split into it's component sections, with one assigned to each of three companies (the remainder of the battalion had a very boring few weeks with NO contacts - even though they were told to expect them).

Anyway, the section that was probing the company which had dug in for defensive operations sent a patrol several miles out of the way so they could come at them from the rear - they never made it. While about as far from their own base camp as you could get (which just happened to be on the banks of the local river, just a few hundred metres from the beach where they were feasting on crabs, fish, etc - bastards!) they stumbled upon a rather well camouflaged and extensive marijuana plantation.

It was well known that the growers in the area were fiercely protective of their crops employing all sorts of booby traps and going heavily armed during their regular visits to water, etc their plants. The probing party consisted of four men with two SLR's and two sniper rifles, all with nothing more than blanks and their charming personalities.

Naturally the discovery was radioed in and their orders altered - they were told to sit and guard the plantation for the next 24 hours until the police could arrive and take over. Could have ended quite badly if the growers had shown up.

Although nobody will admit it, we've always believed there was less there after the 24 hours than when they arrived. Would not surprise me in the slightest, knowing them like I did...

Sounds like the Dopers around my home town.

Knew of one guy who was visiting the local redwoods as a tourist. he encountered a Squad of guys in camouflage and packing some heavy firepower. After chatting him up they warned him to stay on the trail for the next several miles. The Squad of guys was not the cops. The cops have actually found a couple of weapons stashes that have dozens of weapons including actual Assault Rifles and Machineguns.

We were on an Beach Assault (!) out the Heads to Patonga, when the Army still had Landing Craft (Middle Harbour? Long time ago) in Sydney and, being the HQ element of Signals Platoon, we were tasked to remain on the Beach while the Rifle Companies 'assaulted' inland along the ridge lines.

Come next morning, our Sergeant had the bright idea to send me and another Sig out to 'welcome' one of the returning parties with an ambush as they came down off the spur and towards the beach.

Being the enterprising sort (the other guy wasn't) I told him (both Privates, see, but he did as I asked) to remain behind a large boulder (the size of a 10 ton truck) where the trail came down off the ridge while I maneuvered around the side of the ridge, behind another large boulder, out of the line of sight ... with my cunning plan.

See, when the Rifle Company's Scouts came down the path, my mate took some pot shots at them (blanks, of course) and I could hear the 'Action: Front' calls ... and the, well, not very bright officer(s) in charge did exactly what I expected. They allowed all of their troops (the 'Company' would have been maybe a Platoon and half, possibly two, in actual strength) to bunch up at the front and immediate sides along the ridge ... me?

I was 30-40 meters along the ridge line and up the side (difficult going) through the bush and then down along the track behind them ... when I came across the Command Group all fixated to the front, not a guard in sight.

If only I'd had a BFA ... as it was, I managed to get off four or five shots by manually recocking my SLR between each one (as you had to, sans BFA) ... I reckon I notionally killed or wounded a lot of them.

They were NOT impressed.

I heard mutterings and complaints that my Sergeant had not been 'playing fair' ... which I rather thought was the whole point of the exercise? Silly me! :D

I stayed with Sig Platoon ... no way was I having a bar of the genii leading the Rifle Companies!

(Not that HQ Company was all that much better ... at least, on a logistics and organisational level [maybe it was the Junior Officers, dunno, could have been the whole thing was a clusterfuck] ... the expectation that we would have been ready for deployment in 90 days after mobilisation was laughable).

Phil

I have a similar story to that actually.

It was a JNCO course and I was once again enemy during the practical exercise on tactics. Two of us would head off and find hiding places along the path they were to take and when we judged it to be the right time, open up on them.

After probably half a dozen contacts with the two of us usually taking out maybe a third of them each time, we set ourselves up amongst some fallen logs surrounded by bushes and tall grass (maybe 4 feet high). As usual we initiated the contact and they formed up and assaulted our position.

This time though when they came close I stopped firing and let them go past - they'd stopped getting up and running at that point and were just crawling. Of course in the grass they could barely see the muzzle of their rifle, let alone the man either side so they didn't detect me.

Once they were a few metres past, I stood up and started shooting again. I took out every last one of them while the DS stood there laughing his arse off. The "good guys" didn't have a clue what had just happened to them until the DS (still laughing) debriefed them a few minutes later.

In the '80's, several U.S. park rangers were trained by army rangers to tackle the farms in the parks. I guess they didn't have a SWAT school, they usually went to FLETC. I just remember the news blurb was "Rangers got to Ranger School" and showed the rangers rappelling from a UH1H.

The Gap stash would give the existing government of PA quite an advantage, although a convoy from the Gap to Harrisburg might be an adventure in itself.

And if my info is correct, the Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located out near Johnstown, a hotly contested region in Allegheny Uprising.

However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses?

The Gap is only about 20 miles or so outside of Harrisburg very close to Hersey PA (yes, where Hersey chocolates are made). It is also the location of the Air National Guard's C130 wing. It is also used extensively by the PA State Police and the Capitol Police (of Harrisburg, NOT Washington) for training (including SWAT training).

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West. Johnstown is 140 miles southeast of The Ordinance. Johnstown is actually closer to The Gap than us. Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I believe Aspqrz was asking about ammo supply in the context of a Biohazard/war-z type scenario, not a Twilight2000 scenario. I believe his post was an investigation into where one would get ammo from if the supply chain and or command structure was suddenly severed during such a "disaster." This is why I have singled out NG/Reserve logistics sites (the first line of support in a disaster) as well as where citizens might acquire said ammo.

Yes, I think post nuke, the vast majority of ammo resupply won't be coming from rear areas but will be "in house" reloads and captured from enemy stockpiles (such as they are).
It's possible rear area troops would have little to no ammo, and some may be re-equipped with civilian weapons using non-military calibres, some may even have no firearms at all and may instead have to resort to bows and crossbows (in rare instances).

In the originally postulated scenario, ammo production would likely completely cease. Once the already manufactured supplies run out, which may not take very long if they're not being replenished, soldiers and civilians alike will have to start getting inventive. Muscle powered projectiles (bows, slings, spears, etc) and melee weapons would take on a greater importance, with the few rounds left being reserved for the truly life threatening situations. Any remaining ammo stockpiles (also food and other life sustaining supplies) would be heavily fought over until they ran out.

This situation would be the same the world over.

Heard of those along with Shotgun shell booby traps designed to make opening gates or cutting down plants a hazardous experience.

The funny thing about most Criminal weapons caches I've heard of is that they sometimes have dozens of firearms but they don't have a lot of ammunition. It's as iff they are going more for looks than effectiveness.

Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya?" :confused: followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere.":mad: If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.:D

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory?

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

Sierra Army Depot is smack in the middle of "State of Jefferson" country.

There is a lot of Nam Vets in the Siskiyou range and NorCal growing pot and living off grid. That area chosen because there are no major targets and it isn't downwind of any major targets either.... the Oregon/California border area specifically.

State of Jefferson supporters want a 51st State carved from Southern Oregon, Northern California, with some of Nevada for good measure.

Speaking of ammo and Conneaut Lake, there is company called Combined Tactical Systems, Inc, in Jamestown, PA, just near the southern point of the lake. They produce non-lethal rounds for 37/38mm and 40mm launchers. Now while teargas and smoke rounds may be useful, one wonders how hard it would be for them to reverse-engineer HE or shotgun/flechette rounds for a M79 or M203?

Combined Tactical also makes various "flash bangs" including the M84 (the Army's single stage "flash bang" with a 3-second fuse), pepper sprays, incendiaries (thermite), 12 & 20 gauge baton & "sock" rounds, and "vomit gas."
"Less Lethals" are very versatile and the other munitions (especially "flash bangs") would be in high demand.

About five years ago, a 15-year-old thug escaped from Vision Quest and stole a horse. He was caught by at least 6 people (from footprints found at the scene) and promptly HUNG. The case remains unsolved today because there is no local law enforcement and the locals refuse to cooperate with the State Police. Another gentleman who was the center of an oil lease fraud investigation was doused with gasoline and set alight. This was in broad daylight in a shopping center and once again there were no witnesses. I won't argue (and really do believe) that those on The Ridge are as "clannish" as The Wilds, but I don't remember any stories like that from The Ridge.

As for Letterkenny Army Depot, It is, in fact, an AMSA sight. All of the major military installations serve as AMSA sites for any NG or Reserve units in their immediate vicinity. Letterkenny also just happens to serve the regular army as well. I have no doubt it would be the seat of power on The Ridge.
Another AMSA site in PA would be Oakdale PA, Southwest of the Pittsburgh Airport. This is also the home of the 99th ARCOM, as well as the Commissary and PX for the NG and Reserves. It is a fairly large complex with a large amount of communications equipment for COG operations. Both complexes would be very important to local command and control in their respective regions.

One thing that would give The Wilds an advantage over other areas in the Allegheny Region is Kinzua Dam north of Warren (80 megawatts of hydro-electric power) in combination with United Refining Inc's refineries in Warren PA, Bradford PA, and off of RT46 South of Elgin PA. They are too far inland for small sub launched nukes and no ICBMs were listed as hitting the area. Electricity AND at least 2 million gallons a day of oil production capacity (including the crude) and at least 50 million gallons of bulk storage would make for a powerful asset for whatever force controls it. Limited heavy access (only 4 more than 10-ton weight limit roads entering the region) would also make it very defensible.

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship. :cool:

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.

Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

I have a book, "The Ammunition Encyclopedia", that has the 2011 amount of commercial and arsenal ammo in units of millions of rounds. The U.S. at 85% capacity was 3,400 units. The Russian Fed, China were at 2,200 units. For T2K, the disruption of trade and transport will kill this more than nukes. For a Biohazard or zombie scenario, my PC's can check out Lake City. The culled but SAAMI spec ammo alone would keep dozens of enclaves well supplied.

there isn't much modern NATO ammo in them but is anyone going to try to calculate the old CD stockpiles of WW2 surplus ammo/weapons? most of these would probably be lost to time but when everyone else is using worn out M16's and tired reloaded brass, it would easily tip the balance in favor of whoever dug up a bunker filled with boxes of M1 rifles, M1 carbines, Grease guns, BARs, M2 .50's and enough ammo for them to stage a major offensive.

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.