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It builds the cabs as you have stated, but it is part of the production chain not the main assembly line. There are many other companies across the U.S. and Canada who also build armoured vehicles including MRAP's, and firetrucks, emergency vehicles, construction vehicles, buses etc who are as big or bigger than JLG and who's imput into the completed vehicle is greater. Some even market these vehicles under their own brand name. But they are custom builders not manufacturers, and that is what I would class JLG as. If you want to list all of these companies then go ahead, I will give you a few dozen names to get you started but I think we are going way beyond the scope of this topic. To quote the site you used "With Oshkosh beginning to gradually ramp down production of the M-ATV, complete assemblies of the new order for MATVs will take place at Oshkosh Defense plants and not at JLG. 100 percent of the cabs will continue to be made by JLG, however." So JLG make the cabs but are not the main assembly line. Quote:
BAE doesn't make its own engines either, in fact General Dynamics and Textron don't either, they all use Caterpillar, Cummins, Daimler-Benz, Detroit Diesel, Mack and Navistar engines. The M88 built by BAE uses a Continental engine built in America and owned by the Chinese government. In fact I forgot to list Continental so I'll add to the list. The M1 Abrams also uses a Honeywell engine, but its fitted into the M1 at the main assembly plant at Lima. The point being that there is a difference between a main assembly line and a custom builder. |
We did the assembly of the MATV - half of them were built by us - i.e. 100% of the cabs were made by JLG and half the MATV's that were made by Oskhosk were fully assembled by JLG at a rate of 500 per month
Now why would I mention that - because that shows just how quickly production might have ramped up for the war during the Twilight War that a plant that makes material handlers (i.e. telehandlers) was able to convert to build 1000 MATV cabs and fully assembly 500 MATV's a month in a time consistent with ramping up for the Twilight War - meaning that US war production during the Twilight War if it had happened in reality is probably significantly higher than the canon writers allowed for - thus allowing for more replacement armored vehicles than were seen in the canon its interesting how little of the US military production network was actually hit during the nuclear strikes in the canon - i.e. they hit Toledo but not York PA or San Jose CA (i.e. Bradley, M109, M88) and the aircraft plants were barely touched if at all you would think that it would have been the Soviets number one target with the refineries being number two - i.e. cutting off oil is important but it takes quite a while to get new aircraft and tank production going if you nuke the existing plants |
http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot
How long to bring these back into fitness ready status. |
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We know that Caterpillar supplied the C7 engine, Allison supplied the 3500 transmission, Marmon Herrington supplied the axle, and Oshkosh supplied the TAK-4 independent suspension system. What did BAE and JLG build by itself or was it all supplied by Oshkosh? Also were these individual components fitted to a vehicle body when BAE and JLG received them, or were they shipped to BAE and JLG separately and assembled on the vehicle afterwards? Was the cab an Oshkosh Core1080 crew protection system? Did BAE or JLG make it or did they assemble it in parts? Also did BAE or JLG actually make the armor plates and the ballistic glass or was it shipped to BAE and JLG. If so did BAE or JLG get a license from Plasan the Israeli company who designed the armor kit for the M-ATV and built it in their factory in Bennington Vermont? |
JLG buiilt the M-ATV
BAE built MRAP's as well JLG built the cabs for all the M-ATV's and did the assembly work on half the part total M-ATV's built by Oshkosh, assembling complete vehicles that were ready to be shipped. It wasnt a knock down plant they put the complete vehicle together piece by piece, welding it together and then doing all the assembly of all the various pieces. Plasan was on site working to assist with building the capsules (which is what we called the cabs) along with supplier and JLG personnel. So yes during that time period the plant was basically a fully operational light armored vehicle manufacturing facility. FYI - ballistic armor and glass isnt made by any armored vehicle supplier in the US - that armor and glass comes from suppliers - when I was at BAE we had all our armor plate and ballistic glass shipped in - we didnt make it ourselves. |
Olefin I'm not questioning what you did at BAE or the manufacturing capabilities of York, but I am trying to figure out what JLG's assembly capabilities are at McConnellsburg.
The reason for this is that JLG designs and builds aerial work platforms, telehandlers and stock piling lifts. It is not a vehicle manufacturer or does it have a history of vehicle manufacturing, or is it even a custom vehicle maker in the traditional sense of the word. You state that JLG fully assembled the M-ATV at McConnellsburg, and in particular the cab (capsule). But were all the component parts already built before they were shipped for assembly or were they built at McConnellsburg? Assembling a vehicle is a very complicated and costly process, and involves major investment by the manufacturer into an assembly plant including robotic automation. On automobile assembly lines much of the work is now done by robots rather than humans. In the first stages of automobile manufacture, robots weld the floor pan pieces together and assist workers in placing components such as the suspension onto the chassis. Worker attaches the radiator, and another bolts it into place. Because of the nature of these heavy component parts, articulating robots perform all of the lift and carry operations while assemblers using pneumatic wrenches to bolt component pieces in place Assembly plants represents only the final phase in the process of manufacturing a vehicle, as all of the thousands of different components supplied by outside suppliers and company-owned parts suppliers are brought together for assembly. Once the component parts are assembled production control specialists track and assign them using vehicle identification numbers, or in some cases a small radio frequency transponder is attached to the chassis and floor pan. The typical vehicle is constructed from the ground up. The frame forms the base on which the body rests and from which all subsequent assembly components follow. The frame is placed on the assembly line and clamped to the conveyer to prevent shifting as it moves down the line. From here the automobile frame is moved to component assembly areas where complete front and rear suspensions, gas tanks, rear axles and drive shafts, gear boxes, steering box components, wheel drums, and braking systems are installed. The vehicle's engine is then mated with its transmission, and robotic arms are used to install heavy components inside the engine compartment of the frame. The floor pan is the largest body component to which a panels and braces will be welded or bolted. As it moves down the assembly line the shell of the vehicle is built. The left and right quarter panels are robotically disengaged from pre-staged shipping containers and placed onto the floor pan, where they are stabilized with positioning fixtures and welded. The front and rear door pillars, roof, and body side panels are assembled in the same fashion. The shell of the automobile assembled in this section of the process lends itself to the use of robots because articulating arms can easily introduce various component braces and panels to the floor pan and perform a high number of weld operations in a time frame and with a degree of accuracy no human workers could ever approach. The body is built up on a separate assembly line from the chassis. Robots once again perform most of the welding on the various panels, but human workers are necessary to bolt the parts together. Once the body shell is complete, it is attached to an overhead conveyor for the painting process. The multi-step painting process entails inspection, cleaning, undercoat dipping, drying, topcoat spraying, and baking. Prior to painting, the body must pass through a rigorous inspection process. As the shell exits the cleaning station it goes through more drying, cleaning and painting processes. The body and chassis assemblies are then mated near the end of the production process. Robotic arms lift the body shell onto the chassis frame, where human workers then bolt the two together. After final components are installed, the vehicle is driven off the assembly line to a quality checkpoint. This is standard procedure at every major vehicle assembly plant in the world, and the heavier the type of vehicle being built will mean more automation. The fact that we are talking about military vehicles will mean more specification. Obviously some work on military vehicles can only be done by technicians, but component parts still have to be built before they are assembled. If Oshkosh had a contract to build millions or even hundreds of thousands of M-ATV's I could see Oshkosh investing hundreds of millions in developing and expanding JLG's manufacturing and assembling capabilities at McConnellsburg. But less than 10,000 M-ATV's were built, and only a minority of them by JLG. I'm still finding it hard to list JLG as a major assembly plant. |
We built 1000 cabs a month - meaning full cabs/capsules with the armor protection system from Plasan
We then used 500 of those cabs/capsules - that we had welded together from component parts that were delivered to us by suppliers just like the transmissions and engines and harnesses etc. were delivered to us - per month into full working and running M-ATV Thats 9 a shift, 25 to 27 each day, 500 a month - fully assembled and delivered with us building 4000 vehicles in the course of a few months Sorry but 4000 armored vehicles built from the ground up qualifies you as a major assembly plant - and it shows just what the US would have done during the Twilight War Now this was in 2009 - so for those playing Twilight 2013 if you are looking at adding a possible armored vehicle supplier adventure to your game then JLG's location in McConnellsburg would be definitely an idea For those playing the Twilight War timeline it is possible - the plant was there - but we werent owned by Oshkosh - we were making military vehicles but they were just material handlers - but something similar could have been done in the timing of the Twilight War that the facility could have been a military producer FYI RN - military vehicles arent built like autos are - I know I have worked for two companies now that have built them and neither of them do what auto companies do for assembly |
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This is exactly what a custom builder would do, although in some cases they also modify the vehicle and fit their own equipment. And this is the point that I am trying to make about JLG. JLG is a custom builder, although I am not implying that BAE at York is also a custom builder. The fact that JLG assembled a relatively large number of vehicles, certainly more than a custom builder would normally build, is to do with the fact that it was doing so on behalf Oshkosh who funded it. Oshkosh and its main suppliers already built the main components at their own factories and then shipped them to JLG and BAE for assembly. Obviously Oshkosh hadn't got the space at their own production lines to assemble and fit out the M-ATV without a major investment of their existing facilities, so they used JLG (which they bought) and also contracted BAE to do this. |
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Just my two cents. |
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The red box was GM Diesel which had owned the lands and buildings at the time and made Locomotives. |
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and BAE built their own MRAP's all on their own - they arent part of Oshkosh |
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As for shipping material across the ocean yes that is a valid point - but if there was a lot of US war material stuck in the US then they would have made short work of the Mexican Army and any Soviet invaders - frankly the original authors definitely understated the ability of the US to ramp up production and get new vehicles out there let alone get older ones up and running |
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I did state a few posts up that " This list is for 2017 not 1997". If you want to look up what was about in 1997 and compare it with what's still around in 2017 or what has been shut down or built since 1997 go ahead. While your at do you know what happened to the FMC plant in San Jose California that built the Bradley back in the 1990's? |
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I think JLG would best be termed an assembler.
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In regards to 1997 and 2017 there are some major changes in the structure of the North American auto industry.
The U.S. makes the same number of vehicles (12.1 million) in 2017 as it did back in 1997. Canada makes about the same (2.1 million to 2.2 million), while Mexican production has jumped from 1.3 million to 3.5 million. But the share of the domestic producers has fallen dramatically. In 1997 the Big Three American producers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) built a total of 9.1 million vehicles in the United States, while Navistar, Paccar and Mack built another 200,000 units. In Canada that figure was 1.7 million for 1997 and just over 700,000 units in Mexico. Today the Big Three American producers share has fallen to 6.4 million, with just over 100,000 for Navistar, Paccar and Mack. Mack incidentally is now owned by Volvo of Sweden. In Canada its fallen to 1.3 million although its risen to nearly 1.7 million in Mexico. Ford actually makes more vehicles in the U.S. than GM does now. Foreign owned vehicle production (Japanese, German and Korean) has risen in this period. In the U.S. it was 2.4 million in 1997 and is 5.3 million today. In Canada 350,000 units in 1997 and nearly 1 million today, and in Mexico under 550,000 units in 1997 and is over 1.5 million today. Also the Germans and Swedes own or build a lot of American heavy vehicle production, and the British through BAE own a big chunk of America's military vehicle manufacturing. So fewer auto assembly plants in the U.S today than in 1997, at least American owned ones. |
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... since that's exactly what we're talking about. Uncle Ted |
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Most refineries are also near port facilities, so striking them will also damage shipping capacity and limit imports of fuel. That will force the use of ground transportation to move supplies, which requires more fuel, further exacerbating the shortage. Striking at the refineries is a logistical attack. |
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Was this base a target in T2K? I'm sure U.S. forces would have taken many of these vehicles back into service during the course of the war, but many older ones and maybe a few new ones would still be there. Whoever controls this base would have a major advantage on the West coast. |
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Sure Texas, Louisiana and California have a big chunk of America's oil refining capacity but there are plenty more today. There are 6 refineries in Alaska, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Wyoming, 5 in Washington state and Utah, 4 in Illinois, Mississippi, Montana, Ohio and Oklahoma, 3 in Alabama, Kansas and New Mexico, 2 in Arkansas, Hawaii, Indiana, Kentucky, Minnesota and North Dakota, and I in Colorado, Delaware, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia. Quote:
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Louisiana's five largest refineries (Garyville, Baton Rouge, Lake Charles Citgo, St. Charles, and Convent) combine for 1,967,800 barrels per day. There are 11 more refineries in Louisiana that range from 8,300 to 247,000 barrels each. Total capacity of all 16 refineries is 3,310,100 barrels per day. Texas has at least 5,252,000 barrels per day capacity (I don't know the capacity for Calumet Penreco or Double Punch), and California has 3,331,000 barrels of refining capacity. Pennsylvania is (I think) the largest of the non-Big Three states, with a total refining capacity of 775,000 barrels per day. Of that, 10k barrels are in Bradford (near the PA/NY border south of Buffalo), 70k are in Warren (on the other side of the Allegheny National Forest from Bradford), and the other 695k are in Philadelphia and likely to be glowing for a few years. New Jersey technically has six refineries, but Perth Amboy closed in 2006, Eagle Point in 2010, and Port Reading in 2013, so only Bayway, Paulsboro Asphalt, and Paulsboro are still running, with a total capacity of 461,000 barrels per day. Picking from some of the other states listed: Alaska's six refineries combined can do 302,000 barrels per day. Wyoming's six refineries combined can do 158,000 barrels per day. Utah's five refineries combined can do 179,200 barrels per day. Hawaii's two refineries can do 148,000 barrels per day Virginia's one refinery shut down in 2010. West Virginia's one refinery can do 19,400 barrels per day. That's 20 refineries (not counting the closed one in VA) that can do a total of 806,600 barrels per day, or about 2/5 of what the 5 biggest refineries in Louisiana can do. For the entire southeast (and being somewhat generous by including trans-Appalachia) excluding Louisiana, you have: Alabama - 3 refineries, 156,100 bbl/day Georgia - 1 refinery, 28,000 bbl/day Kentucky - 3 refineries, 439,000 bbl/day Mississippi - 4 refineries, 409,800 bbl/day (370k of which is 1 refinery, Pascagoula) Tennessee - 1 refinery, 180,000 bbl/day There are no refineries in Florida or the Carolinas or Virginia, so that entire 9 state region has about 1.2 million barrels per day maximum refining capacity, slightly more than 1/3 of what Louisiana has, and about 1/3 of that capacity could be eliminated by hitting Pascagoula (which is where Ingalls is, so it'd be a target anyway). The other problem is crude oil production. That same 9 state region produces only 83,000 barrels of crude oil per day (5k from Florida, 22k from Alabama, 56k from Mississippi). Unless they can import oil from somewhere, even the small capacity they have will grossly exceed the inputs they receive. Interestingly, West Virginia might be able to be close to self-sufficient; they produce 20,000 barrels of crude per day, and can refine 19,400 barrels per day at their one refinery. |
That's a very detailed analysis of American oil refining capacity there Dark, I presume your figures are from the present and not 1997.
But let's have another look at them, and to be clear these are my figures are 2016/2017. Quote:
Texas has 29 oil refineries, produces 5,671,490 barrels per day and accounts for 30.5% of US capacity. California has 18 oil refineries, produces 1,990,671 barrels per day and accounts for 10.7% of US capacity. So yes your figure is correct as all three states account for 59.2% of US capacity. But these are peacetime figures and all three states expect for Texas are crude oil importers. Louisiana produces 1.5% of US crude oil production Texas produces 37.4% of US crude oil production California produces 5.2% of US crude oil production The big three US oil producing states are Texas (37.4%), North Dakota (11.2%) and Alaska (5.5%), although to be fair California is in 4th place. However Federal Offshore oil production also accounts for about 19% of US oil production. So only the refineries in Texas will be refining oil at anywhere near peacetime levels unless the threat to shipping is totally eliminated. Quote:
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Wyoming has 6 oil refineries producing 177,500 barrels per day Utah has now only 5 oil refineries producing 196,830 barrels per day Hawaii is exactly right Virginia is exactly right, its former refinery has been converted into and oil terminal West Virginia has 1 refinery produces 22,300 barrels per day. That's 19 refineries that can do a total of 703,500 barrels per day, about 1/5 of what all the refineries in Louisiana can do. Quote:
Georgia has no refinery any more. Kentucky has 2 refineries producing 278,500 barrels per day. Mississippi has 3 refineries producing 377,500 barrels per day. Tennessee has 1 refinery producing 190,000 barrels per day. So the entire 9 state region has a capacity of less than 1 million barrels per day maximum refining capacity, slightly less than 1/3 of Louisiana Quote:
Also you missed the refineries in rest of the country. Colorado has 2 refineries producing 103,000 barrels per day Delaware has 1 refinery producing 182,200 barrels per day Illinois has 4 refineries producing 981,500 barrels per day Indiana has 2 refineries producing 441,700 barrels per day Kansas has 3 refineries producing 361,000 barrels per day Michigan has 1 refinery producing 132,000 barrels per day Minnesota has 2 refineries producing 388,515 barrels per day Montana has 4 refineries producing 214,700 barrels per day Nevada has 1 refinery producing 2,000 barrels per day New Mexico has 2 refineries producing 123,500 barrels per day North Dakota has 2 refineries producing 93,300 barrels per day Ohio has 4 refineries producing 583,000 barrels per day Oklahoma has 5 refineries producing 511,300 barrels per day Utah has 5 refineries producing 196,830 barrels per day Washington has 5 refineries producing 633,700 barrels per day Wisconsin has 1 refinery producing 38,000 barrels per day Wyoming has 6 refineries producing 177,500 barrels per day That's 5,163,700 barrels of oil per day, nearly equivalent to the whole of Texas! |
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The numbers I had are probably a few years old - I was doing some interviews in the industry (for one of the Galveston refineries, IIRC - it was definitely Texas, but I'm not 100 percent sure exactly where).
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Texas: 5.67 million barrels refining, 3.45 million barrels crude (+1.6 million off-shore) Louisiana: 3.34 million barrels refining, 0.197 million barrels crude California: 1.99 million barrels refining, 0.561 million barrels crude Illinois: 981,500 barrels refining, 27,000 barrels crude Washington: 633,700 barrels refining, 0 crude Ohio: 583,000 barrels refining, 73,000 barrels crude Pennsylvania: 576,000 barrels refining, 19,000 barrels crude Oklahoma: 511,300 barrels refining, 447,000 barrels crude Indiana: 441,700 barrels refining, 7,000 barrels crude Minnesota: 388,515 barrels refining, 0 crude Mississippi: 377,500 barrels refining, 68,000 barrels crude Kansas: 361,000 barrels refining, 136,000 barrels crude Kentucky: 278,500 barrels refining, 9,000 barrels crude Montana: 214,700 barrels refining, 82,000 barrels crude Utah: 196,830 barrels refining, 112,000 barrels crude Tennessee: 190,000 barrels refining, 1,000 barrels crude Delaware: 182,200 barrels refining, 0 crude Wyoming: 177,500 barrels refining, 237,000 barrels crude Michigan: 132,000 barrels refining, 21,000 barrels crude Alabama: 131,675 barrels refining, 29,000 barrels crude New Mexico: 123,500 barrels refining, 404,000 barrels crude Colorado: 103,000 barrels refining, 336,000 barrels crude North Dakota: 93,300 barrels refining, 1,177,000 barrels crude Wisconsin: 38,000 barrels refining, 0 crude West Virginia: 22,300 barrels refining, 23,000 barrels crude Nevada: 2,000 barrels refining, 1,000 barrels crude Alaska: 0 refining, 561,000 barrels crude There are other dribs and drabs of crude oil production (like Florida's 6k or New York and Idaho's 1k), but Alaska's the only major crude producer without refineries. Peak crude production was 9.408 million barrels per day in 2015, slightly more than half the refinery capacity. It's also not necessarily conveniently located, with major crude oil producers having relatively small refining capacities and not necessarily located near states with significant refining capacities (*coughNorthDakotacough*). Quote:
I'm not sure if striking at refining capacity is the best strategy, but it's certainly a plausible strategy, given the tendency to cluster refining capacity and the need to transport crude to refineries. Crude production tends to be more dispersed (and not necessarily near other valuable infrastructure), which makes it a less ideal target. Hitting at fuel supplies limits both civilian and military efficiency. Even if one considers the distillation of ethanol, that reduces the available food for the military and civilians, which is problematic once farm yields decline (due to the loss of modern fertilizers and pesticides, even if one ignores the drought) and the lean times start. |
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North Dakota is served by 7 crude oil pipelines (Belle Fourche, Koch, Lakehead, Little Missouri, Madador, Magellan and Portal), and also 4 petroleum products pipelines, 2 natural gas liquid pipelines and 5 interstate natural gas pipelines. Quote:
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According to this article the solution to this is 3D Printing! Absolute nonsense, a 3D printer is too slow and limited to substitute a factory and human craftsmanship no matter what its supporters say. Can you see China building loads of 3D printers to replace its factories and millions of workers. The problem is that certain Western governments do not take enough interest in its industries. They only listen to big corporations who are only interested in profits and shareholders. If the government took a controlling stake in some industries which are important to the strategic interests of the country this would not happen. Some European countries including Germany, France and Italy protect their key national industries, and the French government would fire any director who suggested a large factory should close because its not making enough of a profit. A prime example of this is General Motors. When it was bailed out to the tune of US$ 50 billion it was the world's biggest vehicle maker. Today GM is the 3rd or 4th largest and not even the biggest vehicle maker in America. GM repaid the U.S. tax payer by closing down factories in the U.S. and opening new ones in China and Mexico. In China or Russia the entire senior management of GM would be in prison or worse. |
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