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Some information on Chinese units
A B category unit versus an A category unit would have the same unit size but very different in terms of training. Both are regular soldiers but in the case of the A units they would get the best equipment and training while the B unit would get older equipment and would receive a lower level of training in tactics (such as anti-armor or ambushes and the like) A B category infantry unit is a motorized unit versus an A category infantry unit which are mechanized infantry units - with the corresponding differences in how they would be used in combat. In 2005 a B unit would be issued with the type 63 APC and the Type 59 MBT and the type 81 Rifle while an A unit would get the Type 86 APC and the Type 96/99 MBT and would use the Type 95 rifle Also an A category unit would be trained on the tactical use of helicopters where a type B unit would not be And then below that would be garrison units that would be purely trained in security tactics and very simple infantry tactics - i.e. more for internal security than battlefield use |
So adding it up total Soviet effort against China
11 Tank Divisions - 4 still there, 5 transferred, 2 destroyed - one out of five divisions committed destroyed 40 Motor Rifle Divisions - 9 still there, 15 transferred, 12 destroyed, 4 mutinied after duty there - one third of the divisions committed destroyed or mutinied So gives you an idea of the scale of the commitment they made in China - and why they had to go nuclear as they did - otherwise with what was going on in Poland they would have lost for sure by the end of 1997 |
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Alaska, Korea, China, Middle East, Europe (and probably numerous other minor hotspots such as Mexico) were all draining resources and manpower faster than they could be replaced. Heavily nuking China was the best bad option they had and one I think many commanders would have taken in a similar situation. Every other front had members of Nato (usually the US as the major opponent) fighting there and it would have almost immediately escalated into a full exchange. China had nukes, but no nuke armed allies. Any retaliation from China could be counted on to be limited and relatively ineffective. |
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and the only other nuclear power in Asia is the US - which you correctly argue was only basically responding in kind - and when the Chinese got nuked hadnt been touched yet on US soil - so who is going to risk LA trying to avenge Peking? |
Another interesting point is that besides China, the only target locations nukes were used were actually within Russia's borders. The Soviets made a conscious decision to not use them within the borders of another country, not even their allies. It was the West that widened the area.
So basically there's fault on both sides. The Soviets used them first sure, but that was effectively in self defence with almost all other options exhausted. Nato retaliated, but widened the nuked zone. My belief is the war went nuclear due to a failure of the various intelligence agencies, or those they reported to. Either the spooks didn't pick up the warning signs that the Soviets were being pushed to the brink, or those above chose not to accept those warning signs and made the decision to keep pushing forward with the misguided idea the war would stay conventional even in the face of Soviet defeat. |
well face it having the German Army, of all armies, cross the Soviet border wasnt the smoothest of moves - not exactly going to bring back fond memories for the Soviets
however it was the Soviets that made the stupidest move and nuked the US - once the TDM happened there wasnt going to be any end to the war - the US and Russians previously werent going for each other's governments - but going for a decapitation strike on the US govt and military command centers pretty much ended any chance that the war was ever going to go to a negotiated end - especially when you add up how many civilians died in the "surgical strikes" in Florida and California and Texas - they basically took out a big part of the Los Angeles Basin, Philadelphia and northern and central Florida - after that the gloves were off the fact that the US was restrained and didnt just empty their silos after that is actually pretty amazing |
This whole thread has really made me look at the possibility of doing something with China - even if all it is would be a basic China Vehicle Guide with basic details on their Army - lots of it would have to be invented though - there is not that much out there to really go on
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The Soviets were initially very restrained and only used tactical nukes against military targets in the west. It was Nato who escalated to theater nuclear weapons in September against "an array of industrial targets and port cities in the western Soviet Union".
The Soviets did not escalate, but retaliated. BOTH sides had ample opportunities to de-escalate, the first earlier in July when the conventional Nato advance could have been halted at the Russian border, BUT I fully understand no commander in their right mind would want to take the pressure off an opponent and give them time to regroup. The Soviets didn't HAVE to strike against the US, but remember they'd already suffered numerous strikes to their own cities and civilians at that point. To not strike would be to show weakness, and also allow the US to retain full industrial and economic capacity against their own already decimated infrastructure. Stepping back you can see the chain of events which kicked off in China leading to nuclear war. There were plenty of opportunities to defuse the situation, but plenty of reasons not to do so as well. |
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By the time that ceased to apply China was probably in such a state that there was no need to nuke it further (that’s assuming that the handover to the PRC actually took place at all given that by the end of July it sounds as though the PRC had effectively ceased to exist). |
A very good point there too about the handover date.
My guess is most of the work was already done by the time China was nuked, so the handover probably still happened. However, it still makes sense for the Soviets to hold off on nuking the city until after the handover date, and possibly even until the first strikes were made against the UK itself, just to be safe. Certainly makes sense to nuke it at some point though, it is one of the largest trading centres in Asia with good port facilities and a very important airport too. Leaving it intact, no matter who's officially (or unofficially) in possession of it would be a very big mistake. |
Thinking about doing a Group of Chinese Army Officers in the State
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The is a listing of Chinese ground forces in the early-to-mid 1990's including relevant PLA Air Force and Navy units.
Peoples Liberation Army 2,300,000 Troops (including 1,075,000 conscripts) 0,600,000 Reserves Organisation 7 Military Regions (including 28 Military Districts, 3 Garrison Commands) 24 Integrated Group Armies 10 Tank Divisions 84 Infantry Divisions 4 Airborne Divisions: 4 (under Air Force control) 7 Artillery Divisions 4 Air Defence Artillery Divisions 14 Independent Tank Brigades 21 Independent Artillery Brigades 28 Independent Anti-Aircraft Brigades 50 Independent Engineer Regiments 6 Rapid Deployment Force Battalions 5 Group Helicopter Battalions * Chinese reserves add another 54 infantry divisions. * Note Integrated Group Armies are equivalent to Western Corps (43,500 troops). Organization varies but typically includes 4 division (1 tank, 3 infantry, 1 artillery) and 1 airborne brigade. * Note: PLA divisions were smaller than Western and Soviet divisions. A typical Chinese tank division had 9,200 troops and infantry divisions had 12,700 troops. Deployment 1) North-East Shenyang Military Region (Heilongjiang, Jilin, Liaoning military districts) 5 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 19 divisions (3 tank, 15 infantry, 1 artillery) 2) North-Beijing Military Region (Beijing and Tianjin Garrison Commands, Hebei, Nei, Monggol, Shanxi military districts) 6 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 27 divisions (2 tank, 20 infantry, 1 Airborne, 2 artillery, 2 air defence) 3) West-Lanzhou Military Region (Gansu, Ningxia, Qinghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang, South Xinjiang military districts) 2 Ground Army, 2 Missile Army, 13 divisions (1 tank, 12 infantry) 4) South West-Chengdu Military Region (Guizhou, Sichuan, Yunnan, Xizang military districts) 2 Ground Army, 1 Missile Army, 8 divisions (7 infantry, 1 artillery) 5) South-Guangzhou Military Region (Guangdong, Guangxi, Hainan, Hubei, Hunan military districts) 2 Ground Army, 8 divisions (6 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence) 6) Centre-Jinan Military Region (Henan, Shandong military districts) 4 Ground Army, 19 divisions (2 tanks, 13 infantry, 3 airborne, 1 artillery) 7) East-Nanjing Military Region (Shanghai Garrison Command, Anhui, Fujian, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Zheijiang military districts) 3 Ground Army, 15 divisions (2 tanks, 11 infantry, 1 artillery, 1 air defence) The PLA was huge in numbers and fielded 8,000 MBT and 1,200 light tanks. The PLA had 6,000 Type-59 MBT, the rest were Type-69, Type-79 and a few Type-80 and Type-90. The PLA had for its size relatively few mechanised armoured vehicles and self propelled artillery compared to NATO and Warsaw Pact armies. The PLA did have 14,500 towed artillery guns, 3,800 rocket artillery and 15,000 AA guns. SAM's included HN-5/5A/C and some HQ-6, all basically copies of Soviet and Western SAM. Anti-tank missiles were also basically copies of Soviet and Western systems. The PLA had about 100 helicopters, all license built from France or purchased from the US. The PLAAF (Chinese Air Force): The PLAAF controlled 4 airborne divisions that were assigned to the PLA. The PLAAF also operated 16 Air Defence Artillery Divisions and 28 independent regiments with 16,000 air defence guns and 100 SAM units with HQ-2/2B/2J and HQ-61 SAM. The PLAN (Chinese Navy): The PLAN had a naval infantry force of 1 brigade of 6,000 troops facing Taiwan, and also some special forces. On full mobilization the naval infantry would include a total of 8 divisions of 52 regiments (10 tank, 24 infantry and 8 artillery). Additionally the PLA had 3 infantry divisions that had an amphibious role. The PLAN Coastal Regional Defence Force also had 27,000 troops organised into 35 artillery regiments who operated CSS-C-2 anti-ship missiles and 130mm, 100mm and 85mm guns. Para-Military Forces: Chinese paramilitary forces stood at about 12,000,000 and included the Ministry of Public Security, the People Armed Police and the Militia. The Ministry of Public Security is the principle police and security organisation of China. At this time the Ministry of Public Security was unarmed and stood at over 1 million personnel. The People Armed Police is armed and is responsible for internal security, law enforcement and maritime protection in China as well as providing support to the PLA in wartime. The People Armed Police stood at about 750,000 personnel at this time and controlled the Border Defence Corps, a Para-military force of 1,029 border, mountain and internal defence battalions. The largest Para-military force in China is the Militia. There were two classes of Militia. The Basic or Armed Militia was comprised of groups of men and women aged 18-30 who had served or were expected to serve in the PLA, and who received thirty to forty days of military training per year. The basic militia included naval militia which operated armed fishing trawlers and coastal defence units, as well as specialized detachments such as air defence, artillery, communications, anti-chemical, reconnaissance and engineering units. They were grouped in the Armed Militia of up to 4.3 million organized into about 75 cadre divisions and 2,000 regiments. The Ordinary Militia included men aged 18-35 who met the criteria for military service. They received some basic military training but generally were unarmed. The ordinary militia had some air defence duties and included the urban militia and a strength of 6 million. In wartime the militia would supply reserves for mobilization, provide logistical support to the PLA, and conduct guerrilla operations behind enemy lines. |
Keep in mind that the Chinese made a bunch of changes in their Army from the mid 1980's to the mid 1990's - and not sure how much info the game designers actually had on the actual Chinese Army
And those changes FYI in the Chinese Army happened (reduction of forces, transformation of divisions into brigades, redeployment of troops, elimination of units and armies, etc..) because of the reduction of tensions with the Soviets and the fall of the Soviet Union Thus there are possibly two Chinese Armies to look at based on the differing timelines V1 - Cold War never ends - most likely you would have seen the mid-80's Chinese Army continue right up to the war start - i.e. the one where the Soviets are a real threat and most of their deployments of their best units are to be able to defend Beijing and Manchuria against them V2 - Soviets are not as big a threat and you see more of the mid-90's army from our timeline where they had started to redeploy from the "Soviets are our biggest threat" to more like "time to finally take out Taiwan" that you saw and also deploying into Sinkiang after the unrest there in the early 90's |
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If we are playing V1 then my list above will be what the Soviets will be facing when they attack China in 1995. |
Keep in mind that there are category A and category B divisions in that mix for V1- and also garrison divisions in that list
As stated before the big differences: Category A - best equipment, best training - basically the mobile troops that were ready (at least in Chinese eyes) to take on the Soviets from the get go Category B - second line equipment, standard training but not top of the line - i.e. more basic, not advanced tactics or familiarity with top of the line equipment - still regular troops but definitely not the cream of the crop Garrison - static infantry divisions with artillery support (with some units being issued older tanks - and by older I mean very old) example 1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region Originally the 62nd Infantry Division the the 62nd Army Division and then reorganized in 1985 and renamed the 1st Garrison Division of Lanzhou Military Region 1st Garrison Regiment (former 184th Infantry); 2nd Garrison Regiment (former 185th Infantry); 3rd Garrison Regiment (former 186th Infantry); Artillery Regiment. Artillery most likely would be Type 60 122mm towed gun and Type 59-I 130mm towed gun and even perhaps the Type 59 100mm artillery pieces as well It was disbanded in 1992 and became the Independent Infantry Regiment of Ningxia Military District. However in the V1 timeline it probably would have stayed intact as a garrison division This might have been one of the divisions the 78th Motorized Rifle Division faced in Sinkiang |
Don't believe everything you read about the Chinese army's numbers, training or effectiveness. My ex was one of those militia. Their training consisted of 2 weeks of marching around doing civil tasks such as gardening and rubbish clean up (but mostly the marching). It happened once only in the dozen years or so they were supposed to do it.
They did however do a little rifle training - one day only with air rifles. |
Oh the militia suck - I agree there - basically they are good bullet absorbers and not much more than that - but the Category A and B troops are trained infantry - but definitely not up to US military standards for sure
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What sort of size are we talking for these divisions? 3-6k?
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Kalos - are you asking the size of divisions pre-war or by 2000-2001 timing?
China currently has switched from divisions to brigades so their current force structure is different from the 80's and 80's |
Beginning really...I know the general thought is 2000/2001 they were hammered and a fraction of prewar strength.
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per various sources - pre-1987 - with transition occurring in their army from then on into the late 90's/early 2000's from divisions to brigades
Each field army division under the old system had over 12,000 personnel in three infantry regiments, one artillery regiment, one armored regiment, and one anti-aircraft artillery battalion as well as support units The garrison units were smaller as they usually only included infantry and artillery and typically only had three regiments of infantry and one artillery regiment If you look at how the combat capable divisions were organized during the V1 and V2 timelines they were organized as follows: three regiments (of three battalions each plus support units) (either armor or infantry) and then a fourth regiment that was either armor (in an infantry division) or infantry (in an armor division), an artillery regiment, an anti-aircraft regiment (or battalion), and then signals, engineer, recon, chemical defense battalions or companies and combat service units There were many differences between category A and category B units - and the relative lack of APC's at the time meant that outside of armored divisions many infantry were transported in trucks. Similarly there was a lack of SPG's so mobile artillery in many cases was rocket artillery and most divisions had towed guns. Also category A units had the best equipment while category B made do with older tanks and APC's - or in many cases were truck borne only as to transport The current army is somewhat different as they use the brigade concept - so if you are looking at Twilight 2013 you are looking at brigade formations Example - typical current PLAGF artillery brigade has 4 artillery battalions each with 18 guns in 3 batteries and 1 self-propelled anti-tank gun battalion (18 vehicles) Currently a PLAGF armored brigade after the 1990's reorganization has 4 tank battalions with 124 main battle tanks, each composed of three tank companies of 31 tanks (10 per company and one battalion commander tank), a single mechanized infantry battalion with 40 APC's, one artillery battalion with 18 SPG and one anti-aircraft battalion The tank divisions that the Soviets would have faced in V1 and V2 would have had three full regiments of tanks, each with 3 battalions each - thus 93 tanks per regiment with a total of around 280 tanks per division plus a full infantry regiment with (in a category A unit) some 120 APC's of various types |
FYI there are at least two Chinese Armies we know that the US forces linked up with per canon
US Army Vehicle Guide 25th Light Infantry Division - 9/7/97 - linked up with elements of the 31st Army 2nd Infantry Division - 8/1/97 - met up with and relieved surrounded Chinese 2nd Para Division. Then mentions it briefly came under the command of the Chinese 28th Army till that army's HQ was nuked and the army disintregrated 28th Army - from our timeline - From 1971 to 1998, this army corps belonged to the Beijing Military Region and was based in Shanxi Province, initially in Houma and then in Datong. At the time of its dissolution in 1998, the 28th Army was composed of the 82nd, 83rd and 205th Infantry Divisions, the 7th Armored Division, an artillery brigade, an anti-aircraft brigade, an engineer regiment, a communication regiment and a reconnaissance battalion. 31st Army - now the 73rd Army in our timeline - It was based at Xiamen, Fujian and is composed of the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions, along with an armored brigade, an air defense brigade, a surface-to-air missile regiment, an artillery regiment, and an engineer regiment. It is considered a Category A unit, with priority status in terms of readiness, strength, and modern equipment the 2nd Para on the other hand is a completely invented unit as far as I can find - there was no real Chinese 2nd Para Division |
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When the Soviets invaded China this would have been a strategic reserve to be used against Soviet forces. They would have been better quality troops than the average PLA division but they were lightly armed. At some point the PLA would have sent them against advancing Soviet forces, were they would likely have been chewed to pieces by better equipped Soviet forces in the meat grinder that was the Soviet-Chinese War. Maybe the PLA raised more airborne divisions to replace them as I doubt any of them would have survived at division strength after a year or more of fighting. |
I would also suggest that the 2nd Parachute Division is not a true Para division but instead a division that could be air transported into combat by helicopter or short field/rough landing capable transports that could be composed of excess Air Force personnel from the Chinese People's Liberation Army Air Force – in other words a unit that was similar to the ones that Goering created after 1941 during WWII
And I agree that there is a very good chance that their original Para force was used to try to stop the Soviets and had their heads handed to them – possibly with a few survivors being used to form the new “Para” divisions |
Here is an idea for how such a sourcebook could be done - this would be the entry for the 205th Infantry Division which was part of the 28th Army as an example
205th Infantry Division – Northern Motorized Infantry Division, Catalog A The 205th took heavy casualties during the initial fighting in 1995, helping to stop the Soviet drive on Beijing. It took part in the 1995 counteroffensive and was then pulled off the line to absorb infantry and tank replacements. In early spring 1997 it rejoined the 28th Army and took part in the last Chinese counteroffensive, overrunning and almost destroying the Soviet 153rd Motorized Rifle Division in the process. The division was destroyed by four tactical nukes on August 18, 1997 leaving less than 300 survivors to be captured by the Soviets. |
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Do you want to do a list like that of all the PLA divisions Olefin? |
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The 28th and 31st Armies we at least have canon references to so thats a place to start In many ways it would be a historical document (i.e. the Chinese Army really took it on the chin and a lot of the entries are going to read "destroyed", " overrun", "nuked" etc.. (you get the hint) but could also show the best guess at what is left and who they may be answering to (i.e. the warlords mentioned in the canon) |
I think China's basically too screwed up to bother with. Their military forces have been utterly devastated, and the northern part of the country at least glows quite brightly at night and has a rather glassy look to it.
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I wrote this years ago. The order of battle would need some changes to be canon compliant.
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In fact one big source of info on what happened to the Chinese Army during and after the nuclear strikes as well as the status of whatever units remain would have been from the 6th as it fought its way back to Hong Kong and its activities after it got back Based on it being part of the 31st Army for a short while it could have survivors from any of the units that were in that division - i.e. the 86th, 91st, 92nd and 93rd Motorized Infantry Divisions or the support units that were part of it - as part of the troops that are still with them back in Hong Kong |
A source book would probably need to focus on the southern part of the country plus a bit of SE Asia (Vietnam, Cambodia, etc but excluding the island nations such as the Philippines and Indonesia) to fill the pages with just a cursory coverage of the north.
Much of what's already in Bangkok, Merc and the Gazetteer would be applicable with a few minor tweaks here and there perhaps (Bangkok's vague enough that it can be used in either timeline without any trouble). Northern China is just one big Devastated region with scattered random encounters and the odd Cantonment. Civilians have probably all cleared out of died long ago, and the soldiers that are left would probably be suffering quite badly from radiation, starvation and disease. The Pact units are likely looking to move back north out of the devastated zone, or east into Korea if they're still paying some sort of lip service to higher command. Chinese units have likely become little different to marauders preying on each other and the handful of civilians too stubborn or unable to leave. Give it another couple of years and the whole region will likely be deserted for the most part with only rare settlements spread far apart to be found. |
I dont see Northern China as quite the wasteland you say it is Leg - mainly because the Russians still have troops there. If it was really the blasted radioactive ruin you depict then why do they have multiple divisions stationed in Manchuria still? You dont waste good troops guarding radioactive ruins
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Perhaps my description was a bit excessive, but seriously, can anyone really imagine there's much going on there of interest?
It was nuked heavier than anywhere else on the planet. Even Silesia, which suffered 97% population reduction didn't get hit anywhere nearly as hard as Northern China. Account for the hostile environment (even IRL it's not all that pleasant with 40 deg C (104F) summers and -30 deg C (-22F) winters), plus years of warfare, topped off with widespread nukes and there'd be lucky to be 1% of the population left - including the Pact forces bumping up the numbers. |
FYI if there was one area that got hit big time and I bet its the reason the Soviets were unable to finish the job in Korea is the area north of the Yalu River - if you read the canon the Soviets used a bunch of tactical nukes in that area to not only take out the 28th Chinese Army but also to majorly damage several US divisions - and have a feeling the US hit that area pretty hard as well as payback after they pulled back
must make getting any kind of supplies to North Korea and the troops that are there no fun at all if you basically have to traverse a wasteland to get them there |
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The Chinese have the DF-4 and DF-5 ICBM.
However, the Chinese have few ICBMs missiles compared to the US or Soviets - a couple dozen DF-5s and fewer DF-4s. Unlike the US & USSR (who stock enough to destroy the other side even if hit first, as well as nukes for tactical (as opposed to strategic) uses, Chinese nukes are meant as a regional deterrent against against other nations with no or few nukes. Now, having said that, this is not a nuclear force whose use would bring the USSR to its knees. If all survived to strike, the Chinese nuclear force is a fraction of the NATO/USSR exchange - and I doubt all of the Chinese units would have survived long enough to strike back - and some number were used operationally against Russian units in the field. And that's before we discuss a "robust ABM defense"... Uncle Ted |
One thing to keep in mind with the canon is that it was written in the mid-1980's and many of the Chinese missiles they were familiar with were deployed in small numbers - or they may have only known about the liquid fuel ones - and they have a crucial vulnerability
i.e. the DF-4 only had four missiles operational in 1984 - but they can definitely bust a city if they get off the ground - 3,300 kt explosive yield - but they have to be fueled prior to launch the DF-5 of which they had around 15-20 took as long as two hours to fuel which had to be done in the open - giving the Soviets a pretty good chance to nail them on the pad - that is for the ones in the tunnels the ones in the silos can be maintained at ready to fire - but they had a very limited number in silos the DF-3 has a range of 3,300 km - not enough to reach Moscow but they could really screw up cities closer - there were 50 of them in 1993 but they also had to be fueled prior to firing - so they could be caught on the ground the DF-11 is solid fuel and is the one that could be launched under attack with no prep time - but it has much shorter range - only around 300 km - but there are a lot of them - the question is would China have used them conventionally first and how many were left to put nukes on you also have the DF-21A which went into service in 1996 which the canon authors would have had no information at all - its road mobile and has good range and a 300kt warhead - but who knows how many were ever made before the Soviets hammered China as for bombers the canon writers would only have known about the 120 H-6 bombers they had that were a variant of the Tu-16 the Xian JH-7 Flying Leopard that has a range and payload exceeding that of the F-111 wasnt deployed until 1992 - those planes had a real chance of making it to target versus the H-6 bombers So the real question is given the existence of ABM's in the timeline how many would have gotten off the ground (you figure the Soviets would go all out to get as many as possible) and how many would have been shot down? |
Also China would have had no operational satellites for early warning - the only way they would have known about launches was from the US - and there isnt enough time to launch the liquid fuel rockets under attack - so that leaves you basically the solid fuel ones and maybe they get lucky and actually have a couple of liquid fuel rockets actually survive to get off the pads or silos
as for their Air Force - after two years of war with the Soviets it may be more a question of what was left of their nuclear capable aircraft when the time came - and you can see the Soviets going all out to knock as many out prior to the start of nuking China - and as opposed to the strikes against the US they didnt kid around with China - it was basically a full all out strike not just a couple here and there and slowing building up |
Example of a place I sure wouldnt have wanted to be in 1997 in the timeline
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-S...ery-Corps.html The 54th Base consists of six missile units in eastern China. These units are as follows: 801st Brigade, DF-5A, Lushi 804th Brigade, DF-5A, Luoning/Luoyang 813th Brigade, DF-31, Nanyang U/I Brigade, DF-4, Sundian U/I Brigade, DF-31, Xixia U/I Brigade, U/I missile, Sanmenxia Now the DF-31 wouldnt have been there but the rest would have - so you can pretty much count on those areas getting very heavily hit by the Soviets - those are the rockets that have the best chance of devastating the Soviet heartland |
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