I agree. I wouldn't dream of alienating our Australian bloc of posters. You guys rock.

Having lived overseas for 6 years, I get how some people perceive the U.S. and it's a burden Americans have to bear. Like ALL nations, we've done some great things and we've done some sh*tty things. Unfortunately, those sh*tty things tend to stand out more.

I dislike stereotypes. They're usually crutches for the ignorant and small-minded. Unfortunately, they can't be escaped. I just wish that people would stop painting all Americans with the same broad brush. We're not all macho, jingoistic, boorish, materialistic, uncultured, loutes.

If someone has a chip on his shoulder about Americans, this isn't the place to to air those grievances. Like my mama used to tell me,

If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all.

'Nuff said.

I think the greatest irony in this current situation is that while some bad feeling has been generated due to the comments of some people analyzing the military (or non-military) conduct of the characters in Aliens, the fact is that Wayland-Yutani deliberately sent that specific unit to the planet with the sole aim of getting some or all of them infected with an alien egg.

They deliberately chose a unit (and it's equipment) that would not be able to achieve the military mission and while Cameron was most definitely telling a Vietnam War tale with all the badness that the Vietnam experience entails, I believe it cannot be overstated that the role of the Colonial Marines in the operation was to become infected so that the Wayland-Yutani Corporation could get its hands on what they thought could be a new bio-weapon.
The Marines in the movie were being f**ked over by big business, just like we all get screwed over by big business.
They were a disposable asset.
They were never allowed (or even meant) to achieve their military objectives so over-analyzing the personnel or their actions is ultimately fruitless - they were set up by higher authority right from the beginning to fail.

As was the crew of the Nostromo in the original Alien film. It seems that a prime directive had been secretly inserted into all the master computers in the Weyland-Yutani starship fleet in an effort to find alien technology. Of course once the Alien Vs Predator films came out we could understand why. Weyland Corporation knew of the existance of extraterrestrial intelligent life late in the 20th or early in the 21st century and then spent the next couple of hundred years looking for it off-planet.

Alien Vs Predator - what a total and complete waste of time!

From my point of view the predator films are about as far from a canon Aliens universe as you can get.

It's a good point about the corporate meddling in the first two films and one I hadn't really thought about lately. Given the information the corporation had from the first encounter by the Nostromo and Ripley's subsequent report, if they were serious about safety, them more marines should have been sent - at least twice as many, preferably 10 times as many.

Yes, the unit had some heavy firepower at their disposal, but they also had insufficient numbers to cope with even light casualties and continue being combat effective. Gorman's tactical and strategic shortcomings notwithstanding, the lack of decent briefings and preparation doomed the mission from teh start.

On the other hand, if it had turned out to be nothing more than a downed transmitter, and a full company plus had been sent....

The problem is though, Weyland-Yutani already knew what the likely cause was.
To paraphrase Ripley during the later part of the movie where she is talking to Burke about the Aliens, "I don't know whose worse Burke, you or them. You don't see them fucking each other over for a percentage"

Well, technically...he's in charge, so everything is his fault...so I was taught in ROTC, PLDC, and BNCOC.

Look long enough and you'll find anything online...
http://gbxforums.gearboxsoftware.com...t=69278&page=2
It's only a few excerpts, but it is cut and pasted word for word.

I agree that ultimately the success or failure of the mission rests with the senior leadership. I'm trying to show Gorman a touch of sympathy because he is, after all, a new LT to the unit; and he can't be everywhere at all times. The whole business with an alien getting aboard the drop ship is a good example. It seems odd to me that the drop ship is sitting on the ground in potentially hostile territory with its ramp down. Shouldn't ramp up be SOP? While Gorman might have the ability to check on this sort of detail, and while we might say he should have checked on this sort of detail, he is a new lieutenant with an awful lot on his mind. The drop ship crew let him down by allowing themselves to be very vulnerable and failing to prevent infiltration of the ship by the enemy.

Nevertheless, I can't dispute you that final responsibility for what does or does not happen in Gorman's command rests with Gorman.

Webstral

Yes, yes, yes. Did I mention yes?

I disagree. The ultimate responsibility for Gorman's command failure was Burke's greed.

I agree, an awful movie. I think AvP Reqiuem was pretty good though, and I think this is the movie that Targan is referring to in his earlier post. In the end of this we see an early Weyland-Yutani corp discover that alien life exists.

I thought the movie actually did a pretty good job of staying true to the feel of both Aliens and Predator franchises. It was even structured in a similar way to Aliens and some of the scenes were definitely paying fan-service to the original.

Obviously the corp knew what was going on out there when they organised to have the marines sent out. They had always wanted minimal surviors so they organised to have a small detachment (which also seemed to have a lot of discipline problems) with no chance of actually succeeding in the stated mission.

The only people who actually 'failed' to do what was expected of them were Carter Burke, who failed in getting Ripley and Newt impregnated and Ripley. Ripley was the traitorous dog who turned her back on her Corps plans and actively worked against them.

Brecon Beacons in South Wales - where the SAS do a lot of training/selection - some bleak hostile terrain when the weather comes in.

There are only 21 million of ya'll? Jeeze, ya'll need some more people, you want some Mexicans? We got plenty to to spare here in the U.S., and you don't even have to go through the trouble of documenting them.:D

In the US, all Australians are thought of as hot actors, actresses or supermodels who are good with a grill, making steak, or shrimp.

Oh, ok. That's actually quite accurate. :D

Oblivious ?
 

Ok Guys sorry to dredge this up again.

What is the DC vs Canon Argument?
Ive seen it referenced but cant figure out what it is?

I think If someone has unamerican feelings then they should be posted on a message board that has more to do with the subject.

Ive posted with some of you for years now at RPG host i think is where i started. If this collection of T2K enthusiasts falls apart i would be devestated.

About this argument in particular I say if Web has problems with the commision system then he should be allowed to voice them but move them to a post dedicated to the positives and negatives of the system.

As for Eddie I agree that noone here should have to have there carreers or personal life demeaned here. However the offensive post did not call out Eddie. Web seemed to be talking more about Vietnam and Eddie didnt fight there and hes not a space marine so I dont see how he could be that offended.

I dont mean to judge anyone but I think that as a neutral party I could help mediate some of these issues.

Ive always been more of a reader but i will try to up my monthly posts and help keep the blood flowing around here.

Thanks Guys
Keep it up Kato

I'd go with that. It's a deep and clearly controversial issue. (Few important things ever seem non-controversial.)

Webstral

Agreed
 

If there is a controversial issue related to War, The Military or Armegeddon in general then I believe it has a place here on the boards.

There was a time when the whole idea of playing games about WW3 was probably controversial.

I'm sure nobody meant to take a personal shot at anyone here, that would have no place here, Lets keep the dialouge open here.

SO many of the ideas put forth on this board and its predecessors are like canon to me and many other players because no one was afraid to post them, if someone disagrees they can post there arguments and we can move to the next great debate about life after 2000.

Speaking of that real world bankruptcy I was here in Bloomington IL to help a real world clean-up effort of the old GDW factory with all the owners present.
Thats where i got my T2k Books, 20 boxes of last battle sets and my original europa bags lol.

The short answer (which hopefully will not re-open old wounds) is that the collected T2K works of the DC Working Group are now to be considered canon T2K for the purposes of discusion on this forum, in order to prevent any further bad blood on the subject. If you go to the T2K Forum Thread Map (second from the top of the thread list) you will be able to find links to the DC Working Group's excellent works.

So the big arguement is this?

Are we forced to consider this information canon?

Can we discuss a game with our own information and stories?

If we discuss original canon or disagree with this group are we in trouble?

As long as we are all free to talk about our personal games and opinions
I see no problem with there works.

As for Canon? This work is not canon, GDW published materials are by definition the only canon. However I dont disagree that it is excellent work.

Ive always believed that this board as a whole should be devoted to building our own canon one post at a time.

Ive wanted the war to be portrayed in a more built up WW2 style affair with more C&C surviving through COG plans and all that.

To persecute anyone here for not accepting the rules as canon is not right.
That would be like the previously mentioned 93 games studio turning the DC group down. Why are these four guys opinions of more value to us than the opposing voice? If that is the direction this board hasd taken then it should be put to the polls.

This group is too valuable to place anyones opinions above the rest and squander it all for those reasons.

Just my thoughts on the subject
I remain a loyal member of the board and an admirer of Kato for his time effort and awesome moderating ability

thanks

Perhaps I should have provided more information but I had wanted to keep it as brief as posible to avoid stirring up any animosity.

The decision to consider the DC Working Group's work as canon was made by Kato to put a lid on bad blood that was developing following a series of disagreements on this forum regarding what is and is not canon. I am not speaking for Kato when I answer the questions below and I welcome Kato clarifying any of this personally.

"Are we forced to consider this information canon?" - Only for the purposes of discussions on this forum. You are free to personally consider as canon whatever you wish.

"Can we discuss a game with our own information and stories?" - Absolutely. From my point of view I love reading that sort of stuff from other posters.

"As long as we are all free to talk about our personal games and opinions I see no problem with there works." - Good. I see no problem either.

"As for Canon? This work is not canon, GDW published materials are by definition the only canon. However I dont disagree that it is excellent work." - No argument from me there. Please understand that Kato made his decision in a last ditch effort to prevent bad blood from further damaging this forum. I completely understand and respect his decision. Anyone who needs further clarification on the decision or wants to discuss it should probably talk to Kato in private messages. He is a very reasonable guy and I'm sure he wouldn't mind.

"Ive always believed that this board as a whole should be devoted to building our own canon one post at a time." - Agreed. I started out thinking that that was what would happen but things turned out to be a bit more complicated than that. This forum represents an invaluable body of work in my opinion and we can all pick and choose from what we would like to include in our own campaigns.

"To persecute anyone here for not accepting the rules as canon is not right. That would be like the previously mentioned 93 games studio turning the DC group down. Why are these four guys opinions of more value to us than the opposing voice? If that is the direction this board hasd taken then it should be put to the polls." - No one's opinions are more valuable than anyone elses. No one has been persecuted for anything. As I said above, Kato made a ruling in an effort to nip some growing problems in the bud. If anything, the way things were heading before, the DC Working Group may have started to feel that they were being persecuted. They became very wary of posting their work here. No one wants that because their work is excellent. I believe it was a very hard decision for Kato to make and he deserves our respect for doing his best to keep problems from potentially becoming the death of this forum.

"This group is too valuable to place anyones opinions above the rest and squander it all for those reasons." - Absolutely. Well put.

See http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.p...ighlight=canon for my and a number of others opinions on this.

Some of us believe one thing, some another, but this is a community and nobody should be allowed for even an instant to stop others having their say.

This all seems kind of unimportant.

The group does alot of great work but is this work supplied with the condition that is become canon?

I agree that it is up to us to make the history fit the result that is given in
the core book.

But changing the result and the history is ok too, its just not canon.

So i guess with my limited knowledge I'd say let the DC group have there posts, let the conservatives have there arguements. It all builds a better story in the end.

What seems to be the issue to me is that Canon has taken on some kind of value here.

1. Are we allowed to read the DC group and have them as members if we dont recognize their work as canon?

2. If so why havent the opponents or other creators here on the board been given this "Canon" status?

3.Why would an educated group of free thinkers destroy a depository of knowledge over what is Canon and what is Not Canon in a rpg.

My opinion is It is NOT Canon, that canon was developed and built here in my town by men that i know. They put a large part of there life into that canon and noone besides them or those they liscense can create or edit the canon of there game story and system

But that being said I love reading DC group work and i love reading posts from those guys. I use so much of the additional info and house rules here and im so grateful for it all. I have many good ideas for the game but i dont demand or expect others to accept it as rule.

As long as its civil we should all be able to agree and disagree on this information because in the end its all just info and ideas guys. The rights to thats canon and whats not are not ours to decide. And as for the "well in this board it is canon" argument I dont accept that. Because a majority of us dont agree or care enough to form an opinion on the issue. This isnt a play by post or email game it is a message board for Twilight 2000 "GDW's system for roleplaying in the devistation of WW3"

If it is now DC Groups system for roleplaying in the devistation of WW3 then that should be noted on the boards nameplate and search results.

I think that this type of animosity will hang around until someone addresses and solves it with open productive conversation and debate and anyone not mature enough should avoid flames and insults and watch

Lets get the boards humming again guys.

Antenna Paul M Web Ive seen you guys on these boards for along time now and id like to hear your opinions on this.

No anger just what do you guys think and Kato If this is making you mad just buzz me and ill shut back up man im not trying to hurt anyone here
Just dont want this bopard to dry up again

This is my forum. I pay for it, I spend the time to maintain it. YOU are the problem. If I decide to end your participation here for the long term good it is MY decision.

12 members (8 of whom you have never had any direct conflict with) have asked me to ban you. With my desire to do so that makes 13. Given how reluctant people are to post or send pm's I expect the number is much higher than that,

In my opinion your immensely stubborn and hostile attitude towards people who disagree with you and your remarks towards my country annoys the heck out of me.

The final straw for me regarding any respect I might have had for you was lost you when you decided to undercut a well researched scientific study with claims that the writers must have been financially motivated, just because it happened to disagree with your opinion on a particular subject. You continued with your insistence that the study was biased and wrong without even reading it.

Follow this up with your attacks against the DC group's work which were motivated by a personal animosity towards one of it's members. This drove some of our most productive members away. At this point I was really ready to drop the hammer on you.

Yet the respect that my country has always had towards free speech led me to leave my own forum for months rather than stifle a voice.

I come back and try to settle things and you continue to dig at my country. Snide remarks about "typical gung-ho Americans", "Being rabidly NOT American" don't have a place here. Yet you keep saying things like that.

Everyone on board I have talked this over with says I have the patience of a saint in my dealings with you, but it is wearing very thin. If you enjoy posting here, consider that before your next post.

It is canon 1.5. Frank Frey gave his support towards the DC groups initial work and their research has exceeded GDW's IMO.

You can ignore it the same way someone ignores the canon 1.0 and 2.0 differences.

You can treat it the same as canon 3.0 which has very little connection with anything in 1.0 or 2.0.

I just wanted to end the argument.

Thank you Kato

I think i havent got the whole story and ill quiet down til i do.
I believe some of this is that this group has been rewarded by the canon title
but we dont make it a point to call anyone else heres work canon?

Lets just all get along and respect the rules as dictated by the board owner kato

Good thinking.

That's what I was trying to say in my last two posts.

From my read of my discussions with the DC group they don't even care about the canon designation. At one point they said they were going to "fill the gaps in canon" and that was used as a tool to attack them. I just wanted to end the argument.

Someday you should explain where that quote comes from. Having just spent a ghastly amount of time researching the Great War, that really sounds like something someone would say during the first decade of the 20th Century.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

It was actually said in the first decade of the 31st century (it is a "Futurama" quote)