Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73866)

One I've kicked around doing a few times was a Key West sourcebook. Urban Guerillas doesn't cover that far down. One idea was that they would declare a Second Conch Republic and drop Seven Mile Bridge to isolate around a dozen islands from the mainland. I haven't done any real research on it, though.

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 73856)

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 73856)

Thats why a book on South Africa would be a good idea - to expand what happened and give those kind of details - the South Africans are mentioned in the East Africa Sourcebook but in a peripheral way - i.e. how they affected East Africa and the US/Kenyan/French/Rwandan forces there - but the actual nitty gritty of how they went thru the Twilight War still needs to be expanded

There are now canon details that can be greatly expanded

The South Africans were attacked by two nuclear strikes by the Soviets in 1997

The South Africans struck back using their limited nuclear capacity against the Soviets and their Allies a few days later

They still have a few nuclear bombs and the US is helping them produce more bombs in return for some military equipment and supplies for AFRICOM

They are US allies against the Soviets but also are staying on friendly terms with the French as well

The South Africans ended apartheid and have given the blacks equal power with them in the government but not one man one vote - meaning its more like a divided government between the two groups

The South Africans invaded and took over choice areas in Zimbabwe and Namibia as part of ending the Great war and are still occupying those areas

The South Africans drove the Cubans out of Angola in 2000 along with UNITA (canon event mentioned in Gateway to the Spanish Main)

Originally Posted by RN7 (Post 73870)

Do you want to start one Olefin?

Originally Posted by lordroel (Post 73871)

I wonder did South Africa in the Twilight 2000 verse ever develop the TTD or Tank Technology Demonstrator prototype main battle tank into a full production model ore it only has the Olifant Mk.1B main battle tank in service.

Also another question would be where until the start of the war sanctions still in place against South Africa.

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73874)

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B. The TTD adds a lot of engine power and has improved fire control, but at the cost of 14 rounds of main gun ammunition, and with no real improvement in armor (other than the front glacis, the rest of the hull was only proof up to 23mm rounds; the turret was the same as the Mk.1B). As a rough guess, using Paul's South African Tanks page, it would be an Oliphant Mk.1B with the Mk.2's HF armor and fire control/stabilization, but with 54 rounds for the GT-7 and a Tr Mov of 140/112 and Com Mov of 32/26.

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by cawest (Post 73875)

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

Originally Posted by cawest (Post 73875)

all of the reports during the Boarder was have the Ratel 90 and Eland Mk7 doing very well and taking out T-34's to take out the new tanks a 105. the UK and others would have a problem getting new (newish) Centurion hulls to SA. maybe they would sell/trade new tanks in low numbers at the start of the war. as the war went on these sources would dry up and maybe dry up fast. ATGM production is something I have not looked into yet. but HE and canister rounds are easier in time and equipment to make. This leads me to think that the Rooikat would be but into production and coming off the line as fast as they could. they might even convert a heavy truck line into turning out the large gun wheeled tanks in larger numbers.

Originally Posted by ArmySGT. (Post 73876)

Don't forget the South African 155mm Arty, the G6.. This outranged even NATO cannon in the same caliber and overmatched the Soviet or Chicom 130mm and 152mm easily.

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73879)

Interestingly, the biggest user of the G6 was/is the UAE. South Africa only bought 43 systems, while the Emirates bought 78 and Oman bought 24.

One variant that might see more use in a Twilight War scenario was the G6 Marksman, with twin 35mm Oerlikons replacing the 155mm for use as an anti-aircraft vehicle. I could see one or two of them accompanying a G6 battery as organic AAA and close-assault protection.

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73874)

I'd expect they'd stick with the Olifant Mk.1B.

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73874)

For my part, I wonder if they'd go on to develop the Rooikat 105. It would be a little less effective, but a much cheaper way to get the same cannon on the battlefield.

Originally Posted by James Langham2 (Post 73883)

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

Originally Posted by James Langham2 (Post 73883)

There is an Osprey coming out/is out on armour of the SA border war so that might give extra info.

Originally Posted by James Langham2 (Post 73884)

Possible sources for Centurions:

Switzerland (who had bought them from SA in the first place!)

Singapore (from INdia and Israel)

Worth noting that Somalia had 30 Centurions in the late 1980s from Kuwait

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73890)

I'm not sure they'd need more. South Africa had 224 Olifant Mk.1 (total for both A and B) in service in 1996 in our timeline, along with 28 bridge-laying Olifants. FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline), and I need convincing that the Soviet Union would send anything other than T-54/55 and T-62 to either FAPLA or PLAN, since that's not a priority theater for them. I also realize I just come up with an argument against the Rooikat 105 I suggested earlier, since the Rooikat 76 is capable of defeating all FAPLA or PLAN armor at 2 kilometers; the 105 is unnecessary unless heavier armor is deployed.

If they do buy more, Israeli Sho't Kal might be another source. They were one of the inspirations for the Olifant, and would fit in well. Israel had 390 of them in the mid-80s but started converting them to HAPCs as the Merkavas entered service, so I'm not sure how many would still be available (although the HAPCs could be converted back by Denel).

Originally Posted by The Dark (Post 73890)

FAPLA had T-54/55 (150) and T-62 (175), while PLAN had T-34 and T-55 that were rolled into the NDF. AFAIK, T-72 didn't reach the area until 1999 (again, in our timeline)

Originally Posted by cawest (Post 73887)

a new equipment source book. "Improvised Armored Vehicles".


it would have images and stats of all kinds of gun trucks, armored bulldozers, mg to cannon to ATGM armed technicals, river, near coast and deep water pirates. maybe even gun trains.


some ideas could be found from Syria, Kurds, and Africa

Originally Posted by ArmySGT. (Post 73893)

there is enough variety in Africa to do a sole "Wild Tales of AFRICOM" source book with just Zimbabwe, Angola, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia, and South Africa. Keeping with locally produced or technicals can give you a 200 page source book pretty quick.

Attachment 3899

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 73896)

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 73896)

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"

Originally Posted by cawest (Post 73891)

they might send T-72 to "high profile" units, maybe a company or so not T80's or newer. as the war went on resupply, i think would go all the down to t34's, they had them already and parts and knowledge was there.

why 105 vs 76mm...

the 76 would work against T62, but not if it they were fit with ERA. when planning you have to think 10 years in advance of your data. The SA might be getting a "warning" about "new" tanks coming into there local area.."soon". that would drive making a local product that could ambush kill T-72/T64.

how about having two lines. one making a lot more 76mm and a smaller one making a few 105mm turrets.

also the 76mm is not a "nato" round. getting 105mm Nato type rounds would be alot cheaper and would simplify working with Olifants with the L7's. i don't think the 76mm has a canister round.

Originally Posted by Olefin (Post 73896)

Thats why I said the GM's are free to improvise with Technicals instead of trying to make a specific "this is a Somali Technical" - if you want an idea of just how outlandish a gun truck or Technical can be look at what the Libyan resistance came up with when they were fighting a few years ago against the Libyan Army - I think the shorter list would be what can't you put on an AWD truck or jeep than what you can

and I like that title "Wild Tales of AFRICOM"