However, by the time of T2K, most, if not all these stashes would be virtually empty. There's been several wars going on for several years in different parts of the world. The US alone is engaged in Europe, the Middle East, Korea, Alaska, and against Mexico, not to mention the various civil defence issues the military has had to deal with. Five theatres of high intensity conflict means ammo stocks are getting burnt through many times faster than industry can replace them. Wouldn't surprise me if the government had put out a call to the general population in mid 1997 onwards for donations of 5.56/.223, 7.62/.308, 9mm and .45 ammo.
We know most rounds used in Europe by mid 2000 are reloads, with 1 reload having the same value as 10 empties. If that's the case, how many factory loads are going to be left in storehouses?

The Gap is only about 20 miles or so outside of Harrisburg very close to Hersey PA (yes, where Hersey chocolates are made). It is also the location of the Air National Guard's C130 wing. It is also used extensively by the PA State Police and the Capitol Police (of Harrisburg, NOT Washington) for training (including SWAT training).

Keystone Ordinance Training Center is located just south of PA State Route 285 about 5 miles East of the town of Conneaut Lake PA and about 1 mile south of the town of Geneva PA. It is about 5 miles west of PA RT19 and 5 miles east of RT322 West. Johnstown is 140 miles southeast of The Ordinance. Johnstown is actually closer to The Gap than us. Allegheny Uprising wasn't completely accurate. For instance, The actual Allegheny Forest is north of I80 (way north) and sits astride PA State Route 6.
While the "foothills" of the Allegheny's actually start in the Laurel Highlands southeast of Pittsburgh and north of Johnstown, they stretch north into New York. The highest peaks center around Boot Jack Summit outside of Ridgeway PA 120 miles north of Pittsburgh.
I have spent 10 years driving armored cars and flatbeds (pipe) around "The Forest" and I can tell you that if you don't "belong" there, the locals WILL POSE A GRAVE THREAT TO YOU during a disaster. Population density in the "PA WILDS" as the northern counties bordering NY State are called is very low. The people who live there are farmers, coal miners, oil well "roughnecks" and lumberjacks. They are all basically "preppers" because they live in an area that gets 10 feet of snow and -22F temps in the winter and has a police response time that stretches into hours at times. To call my "cousins" (I live 40 miles SW of The Forest) "Rednecks" would be an understatement.

I grew up smack dab in the middle of the Emerald Triangle. I've known some growers there since I was pre-school age. Some of them are ok people growing for themselves and their friends. Others who I have met in that trade need two to the base of the skull. I'm actually glad that the family member who was an LEO in that region worked boats and not the "war in the woods". It seems that when some of the growers got back from Vietnam they brought all the VC tricks they could back with them.

The old news article showed coffee can mines and eye level fish hooks at one raided farm.

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I believe Aspqrz was asking about ammo supply in the context of a Biohazard/war-z type scenario, not a Twilight2000 scenario. I believe his post was an investigation into where one would get ammo from if the supply chain and or command structure was suddenly severed during such a "disaster." This is why I have singled out NG/Reserve logistics sites (the first line of support in a disaster) as well as where citizens might acquire said ammo.

Yes, I think post nuke, the vast majority of ammo resupply won't be coming from rear areas but will be "in house" reloads and captured from enemy stockpiles (such as they are).
It's possible rear area troops would have little to no ammo, and some may be re-equipped with civilian weapons using non-military calibres, some may even have no firearms at all and may instead have to resort to bows and crossbows (in rare instances).

In the originally postulated scenario, ammo production would likely completely cease. Once the already manufactured supplies run out, which may not take very long if they're not being replenished, soldiers and civilians alike will have to start getting inventive. Muscle powered projectiles (bows, slings, spears, etc) and melee weapons would take on a greater importance, with the few rounds left being reserved for the truly life threatening situations. Any remaining ammo stockpiles (also food and other life sustaining supplies) would be heavily fought over until they ran out.

This situation would be the same the world over.

Heard of those along with Shotgun shell booby traps designed to make opening gates or cutting down plants a hazardous experience.

The funny thing about most Criminal weapons caches I've heard of is that they sometimes have dozens of firearms but they don't have a lot of ammunition. It's as iff they are going more for looks than effectiveness.

Swaghauler, if you think the folk west of the Kittatinny Mountain Ridge by the PA turnpike are any more civilized and warm and open-armed than your northern tier "God's Country" kin, you are quite wrong. The motto of the Pennsyltuckians is "Yew ain't fr'm 'round 'chere, ere ya?" :confused: followed quickly by "We don' lak yer kind 'round 'chere.":mad: If you get a third warning, it might be the racking of a shotgun slide or the clack of a hunting rifle bolt. Or the roar of a chainsaw wielded by a guy in a poorly-cured human-face-skin-leather mask.:D

I still find it odd that Letterkenny Army Depot in Franklin County (just east of the Kittatinny Mountain) hasn't been addressed as either part of an adventure or as part of a reconstruction/continuity of gov't backstory?

They've been doing vehicle and M109 SPH refurbishments, missile electronics refits, ammunition disposal and storage, and for a while they had huge oil-storage-tank shaped mothball facilities for vehicles that were part of a strategic reserve--refurbished older models, mostly trucks and jeeps and such, perhaps others, drained of fluids and kept in a climate-controlled environment pending need.
For a while, if not currently, they were storing arms and ammo captured in operations, like AK-47s and such, in the same type of igloos that the slated-to-be-destroyed munitions are prior to detonation or recycling. Quote the History of Letterkenney Army Depot: "In 1990, Letterkenny was selected as the single processing and storage location for all weapons captured during the 1990 invasion of Panama, Operation Just Cause." Not a bad thing to find to help arm the local militias against marauders or New American actions (which may be the same thing). The Depot also has loads of acreage that is opened to local hunters in hunting season, so with appropriate management and security, sharecrops and harvested wildlife may keep the operations of the depot going with something like the food chits of Krakov's city government used to feed the guarding troops and support the civilian technicians.

Sierra Army Depot is smack in the middle of "State of Jefferson" country.

There is a lot of Nam Vets in the Siskiyou range and NorCal growing pot and living off grid. That area chosen because there are no major targets and it isn't downwind of any major targets either.... the Oregon/California border area specifically.

State of Jefferson supporters want a 51st State carved from Southern Oregon, Northern California, with some of Nevada for good measure.

Speaking of ammo and Conneaut Lake, there is company called Combined Tactical Systems, Inc, in Jamestown, PA, just near the southern point of the lake. They produce non-lethal rounds for 37/38mm and 40mm launchers. Now while teargas and smoke rounds may be useful, one wonders how hard it would be for them to reverse-engineer HE or shotgun/flechette rounds for a M79 or M203?

Combined Tactical also makes various "flash bangs" including the M84 (the Army's single stage "flash bang" with a 3-second fuse), pepper sprays, incendiaries (thermite), 12 & 20 gauge baton & "sock" rounds, and "vomit gas."
"Less Lethals" are very versatile and the other munitions (especially "flash bangs") would be in high demand.

About five years ago, a 15-year-old thug escaped from Vision Quest and stole a horse. He was caught by at least 6 people (from footprints found at the scene) and promptly HUNG. The case remains unsolved today because there is no local law enforcement and the locals refuse to cooperate with the State Police. Another gentleman who was the center of an oil lease fraud investigation was doused with gasoline and set alight. This was in broad daylight in a shopping center and once again there were no witnesses. I won't argue (and really do believe) that those on The Ridge are as "clannish" as The Wilds, but I don't remember any stories like that from The Ridge.

As for Letterkenny Army Depot, It is, in fact, an AMSA sight. All of the major military installations serve as AMSA sites for any NG or Reserve units in their immediate vicinity. Letterkenny also just happens to serve the regular army as well. I have no doubt it would be the seat of power on The Ridge.
Another AMSA site in PA would be Oakdale PA, Southwest of the Pittsburgh Airport. This is also the home of the 99th ARCOM, as well as the Commissary and PX for the NG and Reserves. It is a fairly large complex with a large amount of communications equipment for COG operations. Both complexes would be very important to local command and control in their respective regions.

One thing that would give The Wilds an advantage over other areas in the Allegheny Region is Kinzua Dam north of Warren (80 megawatts of hydro-electric power) in combination with United Refining Inc's refineries in Warren PA, Bradford PA, and off of RT46 South of Elgin PA. They are too far inland for small sub launched nukes and no ICBMs were listed as hitting the area. Electricity AND at least 2 million gallons a day of oil production capacity (including the crude) and at least 50 million gallons of bulk storage would make for a powerful asset for whatever force controls it. Limited heavy access (only 4 more than 10-ton weight limit roads entering the region) would also make it very defensible.

Hey Swag, while not an ammo stockpile, you have the USS Niagara docked in Erie. A nice little brig that could be useful in maintaining law and justice on Lake Erie. Or be a splendid little buccaneer ship. :cool:

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.

Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

I have a book, "The Ammunition Encyclopedia", that has the 2011 amount of commercial and arsenal ammo in units of millions of rounds. The U.S. at 85% capacity was 3,400 units. The Russian Fed, China were at 2,200 units. For T2K, the disruption of trade and transport will kill this more than nukes. For a Biohazard or zombie scenario, my PC's can check out Lake City. The culled but SAAMI spec ammo alone would keep dozens of enclaves well supplied.

there isn't much modern NATO ammo in them but is anyone going to try to calculate the old CD stockpiles of WW2 surplus ammo/weapons? most of these would probably be lost to time but when everyone else is using worn out M16's and tired reloaded brass, it would easily tip the balance in favor of whoever dug up a bunker filled with boxes of M1 rifles, M1 carbines, Grease guns, BARs, M2 .50's and enough ammo for them to stage a major offensive.

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

Not only amounts, but locations and reasons for their locations, as well as who would have known/had access to them? Pleeeeease???

I do remember that, NYC, in among all the tunnels. I think most East Coast cities had extensive WWII surplus stockpiles. Since this was during the Clinton era, the stockpiles were scrapped. Using "Armies of the Night", one could put it in a "Dement" nest.

I can not speak for any specific caches, but I know one of the jobs that we had as EOD was to dispose of unserviceable munitions, they gave us lots of stuff that we no longer had a weapons platform to use for our training, and when we had time we would dispose of other stuff as well. Things like Navy 8" to 16" shells, Army 105mm tank rounds, and 4.2" mortar bombs, they also brought out truck loads of small arms for us to burn. It was delivered to us as unserviceable, but they did not say why or where it came from. So it is your best guess where it came from.

PS - This was during the Bush II, and Obama years so in TW2000 time there would still be stuff left, as we were still getting rid of it 12+ years latter.

As in "Did that big ugly "dement" really :cool:have a war-club made out of a BAR, or was I hallucinating????"

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance?

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here?

Phil

No one is going to be putting anything larger than a manually powered 20mm on any sailboat and the deck will easily withstand the recoil of a weapon like this (many Navy patrol boats are RIBS...fiberglass inner hulls with rubberized outer "inflation rings" and they mount similar weaponry). Most pirates using the readily available "private sector" sailing fleet are going to be limited to boats in the 35ft to 60ft range as these are the most common. These vessels will have basically unlimited endurance but will only accommodate 6 people comfortably. Small arms will be the predominate weapon type simply based on space and availability. Large pirate groups will probably "flotilla" (form fleets) in multiple boats and maneuver as "squadrons" in battle. The basic catamaran (my first choice) would also have the advantage of a shoal draft, allowing cats to "run into or through" the shallows while deeper draft monohulls would have to go around most shoals. Cats also have more storage space on board the vessel.

Many of the larger "commercial" fishing vessels will suffer the exact same fate as "commercial shipping," ie being grounded for lack of fuel. These vessels could mount smaller AT or larger AA guns but there wouldn't enough fuel to use them. A typical fishing vessel will use about 1 liter per kilometer traveled. That's a conservative estimate too. Any larger vessel in use will probably be used as a "mothership" and send out smaller RIBS or sailboats as an "attack force," in order to both preserve the larger vessel and because most larger vessels lack the speed to run down even a small sailboat.

Antique ships like the Brig Niagra being mentioned above DO NOT MOUNT their armament. The cannon can roll back upon firing and use "stop lines" made of heavy bull rope to arrest their movement. Those ships would be a powerful asset to a government due to their firepower (which is easily resupplied by any chemist) and independence from fossil fuels. These ships are rare, however.

No idea about ships/boats, but in 03 we welded mounts for our heavy weapons onto our dump trucks, also had home made steel boxes that we put in the back of the HUMMVE's with posts to mount the heavy weapons. On the dump trucks it worked fine for any of the heavy weapons we had (M2HB, Mk. 19, and/or M240B) on the HUMMVE's the .50 was a bit scary they never broke or even bent but the did shake all over the place. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel was, but I am guessing it was mild. It was just stuff we found around and used.

I do know, however, that Armoured Cars (the sort used to collect/carry Cash from/to Banks etc.), even with beefed up suspension, have a drastically reduced service life compared to the base model truck or van they are based on - nothing about their chassis (heck, do they even have a chassis these days?), engine, diff/gear box etc. is designed to carry that extra weight and it evidently shows.

For Dump Trucks, sure, no probs ... they're build to haul extra weight anyway. For Humvees, well, it would depend on whether any additional armour or weapons overload the frame etc.

For Technicals and other converted, but basically civilian, vehicles - same problems as the commercial 'Armoured Cars', I would guess.

Phil

I was referring to the OP who opined that the larger craft (he mentioned ones up to 150') could mount weaponry up to a couple of tons.

Sure, if it's all in the form of field or pintle mount 20mms ... heck, probably even 25mms ... but no way will they mount a single weapon of that weight (or even two of half that weight) without the problem noted ... unless someone knows something neither of us seem to?

(Aside: Maybe they could mount Harpoon or similar Missile Boxes ... not much recoil on them, presumable ... as long as there's some way of minimising any effect from the rocket exhaust. But at the point where you're desperate enough to be using these sorts of civvie craft, what's the chance of any Harpoons being still around ... given that, even during the Cold War, my understanding is that there were never enough missiles for each available launcher/platform to carry one apiece at the same time, never mind reloads).

Phil

British built merchant hulls up to the late 50s were required to have reinforced platforms, fore and aft to take up to 4-inch (102mm), this included both thicker deck plates as well as the necessary reinforcing braces to absorb the recoil. The deck plates were pre-drilled to accept various gun carriages, allowing for a variety of different marks to be installed. I have heard that this practice was continued into the 70s, built I have not been able to confirm this.