From what I see with their other products, outside of a few adventures, they're rather lightly supported, and from info I've got off the discord, things not published directly by FL won't be considered canon. So the community published bits won't be. Meaning that, unless things change, we're going to have a lot of different people using the same things, none of it canon.

well that has the potential to open up Pandora's Box with a grenade considering the potential discord that has been seen before

and I actually have confirmation on the community published bits not being canon from Tomas

you would figure the kickstarter would wake them up to that fact that the fan base is looking for new official releases - and that we are willing to support that big time - I just hope Marc didnt give the rights to the wrong company

FYI just got this from Tomas which gives some answers

"For 4th edition, just like our other games, community content is not official, and thus not officially "canon". Of course, it can still hold great value and if it works within the timeline set in official modules and explores areas of the world that the official modules don't, and then the question of "canon" or not won't really make any practical difference. But only official modules are official.

In the long term we're of course open to discuss ideas for official modules with experienced T2K writers like you but the first slate of modules (which will focus on Europe) will take a year or so after the main game release to launch, so any further official geographical sourcebooks are at least a couple of years off."

Years? That's a big risk.

The positive in that is the potential for a lot of different people to be playing T2K. That's a good thing. I don't really think most gamers will have any interest in getting too bogged down in the minutiae of what is or is not official canon. If they like something they'll use it, if they don't they'll ignore it (that happens anyway, even with canon - I ignore the Survivor's Guide to the UK, I've seen others say they ignore Howling Wilderness).

Personally I prefer what you wrote for the UK any day to the Survivors Guide

So at this point, because of all the hate speech over in the discord channel (plus Olefin, who has greatly benefited by comparison) , I have so many of you on the ignore list that I have no idea what some of these threads are actually actually about. So I maybe I'm flying blind here, but I'm an American, so f*cksgiven zero, I'm posting!!!

You guys who say you aren't going to support this - come on; really think about this! Maybe there are some nugget to mine (Base rules? What if there's a unicorn gun Paul doesn't have!?).

I haven't played a Twilight 2K game in 10 years that uses basic load + $,$$$ per year of service - they have all used 'anything you can can carry, up to maximum load' for personal gear. That nugget came from 2013!!

What if all of your IRL friends get this version? You are gonna want to participate (ok, so that presumes you have IRL friends but you deserve the benefit of the doubt you Grognards!!). A lot of you like to hate on stuff (you know who you are) - how can you hate on something you don't have!? Buy it for that reason if nothing else animates you!

The truth is - for almost two decades, I've had to get my RPG fix online. I move around a lot and until very very recently, it was hard to find RPG players. Now, people are playing 5e in hordes. Sure, it's small batch, hand crafted, hipster RPGing or whatever, but it's happening. People are coming out of the woodwork for it. We, the TW2K enthusiast, have a window of opportunity (maybe small or maybe large) to introduce them to Twilight 2000. Now we have a new product to do it with!

Be honest with yourselves, these new RPers are not going to learn:

http://harbinger.twilightwar.net/formula.png
Actual Twilight 2.2 version formula provided above

They just aren't. And that's ok. That formula isn't Twilight 2000. The setting, the feeling... that's Twilight 2000.

Twilight 2000 is 30% your gun is X, or Y, or Z and 70%, 'you have only 3 magazines remaining....'.

I have absolute faith that any of you can run an authentic Twilight 2000 with what Free League will provide us.

Come on in for the big win! The last time we had this was what, May 2009, when 2013 was released? We've waited 11 years for this!

Maybe you love it, maybe you hate it. But if you sign on, you'll get a chance to help improve it.

When I was living in Arlington, Jason had a Meetup.com listing for a Twilight 2000 group meeting in Fairfax. I almost went to one - So close. But I had something else to do. I kinda always regretted not making time for that. Then I moved to a wasteland of RPGing where no one knew what Twilight 2K was.

Carpe Diem! Now is the time. This may or may not take off like 5e, but we wont get another chance anytime soon!

Spartan its about making sure that they stay as true as they can to the spirit of the game and that we dont have a repeat of Twilight 2013 - and they need to take the hint from the kickstarter both about how large the fanbase is and also what we are expecting from them

this needs to be a fully supported game - not one that a new module or sourcebook gets released every year or two - and the timeline needs to make sense not be a confused muddle that you look at and go huh???

And having them saying they are basically depending on unofficial fan canon to carry the game after the initial release isnt exactly very encouraging

based on the kickstarter they need to man up (in this case I mean get some manpower - or woman power) and get writing and get those follow ups in the pipe line as soon as they can

and that includes things like new sourcebooks, weapons and vehicle books, modules, etc. - sorry but the US Army had a hell of a lot more vehicles than just M113, Hummers and M1A1 tanks - and a game that is partially based in Sweden and no Swedish military vehicles?

the last thing we need is amateur hour or having this be under supported by the new owners

and depending on the fans to write for them with unofficial releases that will probably be totally contradictory and not in line with follow up releases (if and when they are ever done) is definitely both

if they want to show they are serious they should be talking to those of us who have written in recent past or are writing now and take advantage of a quick way to get some new releases - heck Alf's two books are perfect to be made into V4 canon new releases and I bet Legbreaker's will be as well. Mine depends more on what their timeline ends up as - i.e. the only reason the US is there is that refinery in Mombasa - if its not important in V4 then the US wouldnt be sending troops there - but Alf's books should fit right in

Tend to agree. To see noses turned up at a new edition possibly creating some new momentum and interest with minimal supplements produced in 20+ years (excluding 2013, which to me is something different). I dunno, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Thankful to have a bit of disposable income so I can buy a game I might never play, but to support the company's attempt at reviving it, even if I don't vibe on the rules makes complete sense to me.

Hi dude named after Synthetic Fiber!

I presume your message is:

Spartan is amazing; thank heavens for his insightful, timely posts, which make me reflect on my online interactions and improve my ability to connect with people across the world.

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

I have a feeling if they put out in the kickstarter another stretch goal saying this is the money needed for first of the European follow up modules or a full fledged US Army and Soviet Army Vehicle Sourcebook it would get filled up pretty damn fast

Alf and I have released three new supplements in the last few years - and the only reason there werent more is that Marc told us that he was negotiating for a V4 and that, at that time, he wasnt interested in more - at least that is what he told me when I asked about more releases

And then that changed after the fanzines got 1350 plus downloads each

Win-Win
 

There's no such thing as bad press, right? And most of what I've been seeing here and on FB is very supportive of Free League's endeavors. The naysayers, at this point, seem to be a small minority. I've been very pleasantly surprised at how successful the Kickstarter has been to this point. I think it's really cool that so many people are eager enough for a fresh take on the genre that they're supporting its development financially. I think that bodes well for the future of v4.

I too have concerns about quality control issues and signal-to-noise ratio that lots of sponsored fan-created content will generate, but it's probably better to have more choices in terms of content than fewer.

I get it, though. We all love this game- that's why we're here. We don't want FL to "ruin" it for us. But let's wait and see what they come up first* before dismissing it. And hey, if you end up not liking what they come up, there's still v1, 2, and 2013 to fall back on.

*Don't put too much stock in the sample pages. They're SAMPLE PAGES. Teaser trailers, if you will. I'm confident that what they've shared so far will be more fleshed out by the time it gets to market.

-

I see it a little differently. I’d say it’s about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don’t have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don’t you just carry on playing the original game?

What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I’ve seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste? And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I’d love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we’ve seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.

You’ve been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I’m sure we’ve both seen amateur work that’s better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not? Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon? You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor’s Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I’ve seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn’t mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let’s give Free League a chance, yeah?

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

With luck they will take one look at how fast the kickstarter has been funded and realize that this is not something to think they can one and done or one and "we will get back to you eventually" with official releases.

That was one smart thing GDW did - they released follow ups in a timely fashion that filled the need of those who loved the game and wanted that new material. And the last thing they need to do - especially with the attention spans of so many nowadays - is release it and everyone loves it and then nothing new at all to follow up with and depend on the kindness of strangers to write quality material

I.e. the last thing that V4 needs is a City of Angels or Survivors Guide to the UK type fan release as the follow up to a polished initial release and us being told the official releases wont be coming out for six months or a year or two

actually my final version was a lot more polished than the original fan canon version - thats because I knew it was going to be official canon and I went thru it and did a lot of improvements to the original version - let alone making damn sure I wouldnt get sued for the pictures

And I never said Howling Wilderness wasnt well written - I said that it killing off basically most of the remaining US population with an uber drought that had no relation to reality was what I didnt support - that and having the US bring home 30000 plus soldiers and at most using 2000 or so of them and the US military made no effort to recruit new troops (when joining the Army is the best way to get fed after all) were not smart plot points

It was well written - it just had major plot issues and continuity errors - and you could see it was a direct "oh well we have to kill the US off enough to make 2300AD plausible" effort - but lets not jump the thread with yet another long winded Howling Wilderness debate shall we?

And lets be clear - attracting a new fan base is great but not at the cost of pissing off your old one - go ask Coca Cola how well new Coke worked for them

Slow and Steady Wins the Race
 

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021), and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

My personal issue with that isn't waiting a few month, it's the outright admission that there's years to wait before proper sourcebooks after release. Even if I've seen things in their previous products that make me concerned about their ability to make v4 a success, I'd still prefer new material (or the chance to get it, even fan-made) over none. Wait too long and the fan-base that has backed the core book to the tune of 3 million SEK, might not be there to buy them. At least for specifically fans of the publisher over the setting.

Spitballing
 

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed?

No he made it quite clear - at least a couple of year before sourcebooks on any other areas in the world

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

Doesn't that feature just enhance your enjoyment of this forum like nothing else short of bourbon? I may need to use it a little more than I currently do.

Too bad it doesn't work on quotes.

o7

I'll refer back to my previous comments about parts of this fan base just not wanting anything new because... reasons.

Back when the 93GS forum was running, we had one dude on there who legit wanted 2013 to fail because no one working on it was old enough to have served in West Germany in the '80s. That was his whole issue... as if spending a year staring at the Fulda Gap was a requirement to be a credible game designer in this genre.

- C.

I Tried
 

I sent him an invitation, via e-mail, a few weeks ago.

-

In general, we older gamers are going to have to deal with the fact that many games being made these days are not pitched at us - we are not the target audience anymore.
I think this is the same for Free League's games, with the rules system they use, we are not the target audience. Sure if they get some of us, they're happy, we're happy but they are aiming the game at people who have a different attitude towards gaming and the harsh reality is that many of those gamers are from the younger age brackets.

As I've said, I want to see the material they produce for this 4th edition but I have no love for the rules system and after looking at it more closely, I don't believe I will ever run it and I'm unlikely to be a player in a game using those rules (for the same reason that I refuse invites for 4th edition D&D - now those are some rules I actually hate)
While I understand what some people are getting at, an appeal for all of us to support the kickstarter regardless of what our personal interests or feelings are, is actually pretty damned insulting. I should support this version of the game even though I don't want to play it, just because somebody else thinks it's a good idea?

This is the same as telling me I should like a particular brand of clothing just because my friends do, or flavour of icecream, or type of beer or choice of vacation spot, just because someone else likes it/wants it/owns it/etc. etc. For me, these are things I regard as my own likes/dislikes, they're personal, they're subjective. So I will support kickstarters that I have my own personal interest in, but I feel no obligation to support one just because someone else wants it. Whether I support this kickstarter is entirely my decision, pleas to support it "just because" are actually making me less interested, I do want some of this new material but I don't need it so I'm happy to wait for a while and get more information before deciding to support (or not) this version of the game.

Fan-made content can be every bit as good as official publications, but unless there's heavy curating it's going to come down to the culture of the community for any given game. Many here will know I'm a Harnmaster guy, and that community is a prime example of the quality of fan-made content being, on average, top-notch. The T2K community has a some of that too, I'd use our own Paul Mulcahey as a paragon example. It feels a bit weird going on the defence of the new edition like this, but I wouldn't assume that the general quality of fan-made content for the new edition will be "amateur hour".

right now i am going to pass on this. i might pick it up at a FLGS. i wish they would put some of the timeline up in the kickstarter. if they did that i might be more inclined to support. not getting a new book for a year or more? that does not help me move over to the support column. i did look up other products from this company to use as a guide line. They don't seem to be in the support long term kind of company.

Well, I've reviewed Mutant: Year Zero, and I see it as a "modernized Shadowrun." I'll abstain from the Twilight2000 Kickstarter, but will most likely buy the game when I can get it in print. Like TW2K13, I'll mine it for cool game mechanics and setting info.

If All of Your Friends Were Jumping Off a Bridge...
 

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as pushy, or generate peer pressure of any kind. Whether or not to support any given Kickstarter is a personal decision.

-

Gents,
Not speaking as a mod here, as the last thing I am going to do is use that status to tell ANYONE how to play their Twilight:2000.

Look, I am with the folks who say "setting is what makes T2K." It does. Like it or not. I've run v1 with GURPS, Savage Worlds, and v2.2 rules (which happens to be my fave), but Spartan has a point, younger gamers aren't going to do heavy math (hell, I have trouble with heavy math, LDs are a bitch).

But, and this is my own Kentucky windage. Let's wait and see. I want to see if I can get Chris Lites or Tomas himself down here to speak to a lot of this. I IMed Chris this AM and asked him if FL was accepting fan content for earlier editions. If this is the case, then us grognards might still have a playground of sorts?

Matter of fact, I want to remind some folks of this. Back a few years ago, Battletech had two games out. One was the Classic Crunchy Battletech of 2D6 80s hair metal glory, the other, was simplified clickytech. Did we old timers love clickytech? Nope. But a curious thing happened? We had more than a few Clickytech players make the leap into Crunchy Battletech, and more than a few have stayed. I think, and this is just my own opinion? We treat the simpler rules from V4 like this. Think of it as a zombie-free PA gateway drug for all the kids playing Team Yankee: "So, kids, wanna game out what happens after someone pops a nuke or three?"

Yeah, they may scoff and say "OK, Boomer." But, they may not. Let's get a Q and A with Chris and/or Tomas started. We're the institutional knowledge of thirty years of T2K. We've spilled ink, drawn maps, painted miniatures, and done everything in between to get this ol' girl off the ground. I won't tell you to back the kickstarter or not, it's your money. But what I will tell you? Open a dialogue. The worst they can tell you is "No, we don't wanna hear from the likes of you." In that case? Play it your way anyhow, it's not like they can send the fun police!

Most of you know I have some strong opinions, well thought out and researched long before I say much about them. I'm also open to having my mind changed.
I've seen the draft material (which is almost everything they've already produced) and of course have some VERY strong opinions of it that I really wish I was allowed to share. That knowledge will change minds. All I can publicly state, which I have also said elsewhere, is that some will hate this version and some will love it. Unfortunately I don't see much room for middle ground.

My suggestion? If you have any doubts whatsoever, sit back and wait. If you're keen on supporting based on what's publicly available, then do that. Not much point trying to force your ideas on others is there? Isn't that what's wrong with the world lately?

Will I support the kickstarter? I've thought long and hard about that question too and feel that answering it will probably give away more than I should.

DAMN it's HARD to be restrained about something I'm so passionate about!